I believe people need to spend more effort in having thick skin instead of not saying anything offensive ever to anyone.
How thick of a skin do I need to have though? Because there's only so many times you can ignore shit or laugh it off, especially when people tell you to 'grow a thicker skin'.
So in short fuck thicker skins, call people out on bullshit then tell them to grow a thicker skin once they get all defensive. Because that is funny, and you might as well get a laugh out of it eventually.
People should stop getting so caught up in what other people say in my opinion. Why the hell would I care if someone makes a joke about my country, my sexual preference, my skin colour or my weight? I've never understood the "intent doesn't matter" argument unless it's in regards to sexual harassment. Me and my best friend constantly sling insults at each other, from the mildly aggressive to the outright disgraceful, and it is all done in a playful matter and we are both happy with it. If I call my best friend a bad name then nobody else has the right to get offended about it. If I see black people using the n-word I don't run around screaming bloody hypocrisy because I seriously couldn't give a flying fuck, people should be allowed to say whatever they want as long as the people they're saying it to/about are o.k with it, and if they're not then it is only a matter of opinion.
Free speach doesn't mean: I am free to say whatever I want, but other people can't say bad things.
I'm more annoyed with things like how the law makes rape sentences less if the girl is wearing provocative outfits, or assault cases where racial intent gives a worse sentence (assault is fucking assault dammit, regardless the cause), or the idea that homosexual people aren't given the same rights as straight people, or that communities of race and religion are forced together and segregated from other communities. I don't really care what people say, it's more the stupid shit they do.
Stupid people are stupid people, they should educate themselves. Fair enough if they go around being fucking idiots in the street that shouldn't be allowed, because then they're actually effecting other people in what they're doing. It's basically the same view I used to have on religion: I don't care what you think or do, as long as it doesn't effect anyone but you.
People should stop getting so caught up in what other people say in my opinion. Why the hell would I care if someone makes a joke about my country, my sexual preference, my skin colour or my weight?
Is is super awesome that you and lots of other people don't self-identify as those things. Some of us don't have that option. My skin color is always the first thing people see, and sometimes colors (ololo) their first impression of me and their reaction to me. I know this for a fact, because when I open my mouth I get the ol' "Oh wow, I didn't expect you to talk like that". That gets old quick, well maybe not quick, but after years has probably shaped my reactions when talking to new people. Can't talk about it though, because if I bring it up I am obviously too sensitive.
People should stop getting so caught up in what other people say in my opinion. Why the hell would I care if someone makes a joke about my country, my sexual preference, my skin colour or my weight?
Is is super awesome that you and lots of other people don't self-identify as those things. Some of us don't have that option. My skin color is always the first thing people see, and sometimes colors (ololo) their first impression of me and their reaction to me. I know this for a fact, because when I open my mouth I get the ol' "Oh wow, I didn't expect you to talk like that". That gets old quick, well maybe not quick, but after years has probably shaped my reactions when talking to new people. Can't talk about it though, because if I bring it up I am obviously too sensitive.
I've had jokes made about my ginger hair, my freckles and the fact that I am Welsh my entire life (It all links together in the whole Celtic-Greek thing I've got going in my bloodline), I have heard every joke over a thousand times and they get incredibly old for sure. It's annoying and people shouldn't do that shit, but what I am saying is: If some random unknown comes up to me and insults me, I don't care what the insult is it's still an insult, I'm going to hit him or let it go or whatever regardless. If my friends do it then nobody but me has the right to be insulted by it.
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
People should stop getting so caught up in what other people say in my opinion. Why the hell would I care if someone makes a joke about my country, my sexual preference, my skin colour or my weight?
If they're in a position to deny you a job or a loan, or arrest you for looking at them cross-eyed, or physically intimidate you? Or even if they're not, maybe it's the five hundredth time today you've heard that shit and you're just exhausted beyond words? This really isn't particularly difficult or complicated.
I was at a consolation party for a newly-divorced friend of mine tonight. He's a black nerd/hipster who wears thick-rimmed glasses, corduroy pants, a leather jacket over a Spider-Man T-shirt, and tops out at maybe 5'8" and 150 lbs. He regaled us with a story about how he was walking to the grocery store one morning recently and asked a jogging white couple the time. The guy grabbed his girlfriend's wrist, said "OVER HERE, QUICK" and they booked to the other side of the street. This happened, like, yesterday. Everyone else around the table laughed and immediately one-upped it with their own recent stories.
The dude also works customer service for a large bank where he is legally required to identify himself on each call. So twenty times a day he hears some variant on "Rasheed? [not his real name] Where I callin' you at, Rasheed? You talk English?"
And some days he gets fucking sick of it all and stays home.
Obviously the problem here is his terribly thin skin.
Don't be silly Jacob, I completely agree with you that it's damn fucking wrong if it leads to them denying you a job/loan or they arrest you. You completely ignored my point and made up a load of crap I actually am completely in agreement with you over, which I explained in my post right before, and that wasn't particularly difficult or complicated either, but you still ignored it to make your own argument.
The fact that these people are actively acting out against this guy is wrong and disgraceful, and if I was there I probably would have been annoyed at the people on the phone and the people in the street. But, I would in no way have then picked up the phone and shouted down it at the people, or would I have beaten up the people in the street. It is his life and he can deal with those things as he wants. But there shouldn't be a general idea of: you can't say or do that to your friend, even if you know the person as a friend and they're o.k with it because some other people get annoyed if a stranger says it to them.
Stupid people are stupid people, they should educate themselves. Fair enough if they go around being fucking idiots in the street that shouldn't be allowed, because then they're actually effecting other people in what they're doing. It's basically the same view I used to have on religion: I don't care what you think or do, as long as it doesn't effect anyone but you.
I'm pretty sure if you're communicating it out loud it's affecting people other than you.
Stupid people are stupid people, they should educate themselves. Fair enough if they go around being fucking idiots in the street that shouldn't be allowed, because then they're actually effecting other people in what they're doing. It's basically the same view I used to have on religion: I don't care what you think or do, as long as it doesn't effect anyone but you.
I'm pretty sure if you're communicating it out loud it's affecting people other than you.
Yeah that's kind of the sticking point. It's the problem that if you aim a comment at someone, lets say your best friend, and then someone else becomes annoyed because they think you shouldn't be calling someone else that. What I'm saying is, other people don't have the right to be assholes to you when you're expressing free speech between you and someone who is more than o.k with what you're saying. Overhearing people shouldn't make what their saying a crime.
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
Don't be silly Jacob, I completely agree with you that it's damn fucking wrong if it leads to them denying you a job/loan or they arrest you. You completely ignored my point and made up a load of crap I actually am completely in agreement with you over, which I explained in my post right before, and that wasn't particularly difficult or complicated either, but you still ignored it to make your own argument.
I replied to the part of the post that was relevant. You and your friends can call each other whatever you like, although you should still have the decency and common sense not to call, for instance, your Jewish best friend a "fucking kike" out next to the synagogue.
Can you clarify what exactly you and your friend have to do with this sentence that you wrote and that I replied to?
People should stop getting so caught up in what other people say in my opinion.
Do you really think the big problem with the world is "getting caught up in what other people say"?
Stupid people are stupid people, they should educate themselves. Fair enough if they go around being fucking idiots in the street that shouldn't be allowed, because then they're actually effecting other people in what they're doing. It's basically the same view I used to have on religion: I don't care what you think or do, as long as it doesn't effect anyone but you.
I'm pretty sure if you're communicating it out loud it's affecting people other than you.
Yeah that's kind of the sticking point. It's the problem that if you aim a comment at someone, lets say your best friend, and then someone else becomes annoyed because they think you shouldn't be calling someone else that. What I'm saying is, other people don't have the right to be assholes to you when you're expressing free speech between you and someone who is more than o.k with what you're saying. Overhearing people shouldn't make what their saying a crime.
I've walked into "blah blah blah n*****s blah blah" conversations in more than one occasion. Mostly in East Tennessee. The conversations were clearly not meant for me, and everyone involved seemed OK with it, and I didn't say anything because it's in the middle in the fucking pits, but you know what? Fuck those people. I'm not gonna pretend it was water off my back, and I wasn't angry and need an extra beer or two. My skin will stay moisturized, soft, unaged, and bastards like that can go fuck themselves.
Can you clarify what exactly you and your friend have to do with this sentence that you wrote and that I replied to?
Say me and my friend are calling each other "gay", "fat", "stupid", "English Prick", "Welsh Sheepshagger" etc etc, should anyone else have the right to come over and act offended towards us? And free speech is the idea that anybody can say anything without prosecution or persecution. I'm saying this because you seem to think I think it's o.k for people to insult those they don't know, when I didn't say that, I merely said that as long as they're not saying it at someone who can be offended by it, nobody should be offended. Say I get up on a stage and shout "fuck you kikes!" then hell yes I should be shouted at and screamed at by other people, because I would be an idiot, but say I say to my jewish friend "silly fucking kike" and he laughs, and he is jewish and he is not offended, then you shouldn't be offended. If I said to him "all you kikes are fucking stupid" and someone overheard then I think my opinion might be slightly different, but the technicalities are difficult to get into.
People should stop getting so caught up in what other people say in my opinion.
Do you really think the big problem with the world is "getting caught up in what other people say"?
You're shitting me right? Do you really think anything I've said is my opinion of what the big problem in the world is?
Stupid people are stupid people, they should educate themselves. Fair enough if they go around being fucking idiots in the street that shouldn't be allowed, because then they're actually effecting other people in what they're doing. It's basically the same view I used to have on religion: I don't care what you think or do, as long as it doesn't effect anyone but you.
I'm pretty sure if you're communicating it out loud it's affecting people other than you.
Yeah that's kind of the sticking point. It's the problem that if you aim a comment at someone, lets say your best friend, and then someone else becomes annoyed because they think you shouldn't be calling someone else that. What I'm saying is, other people don't have the right to be assholes to you when you're expressing free speech between you and someone who is more than o.k with what you're saying. Overhearing people shouldn't make what their saying a crime.
I've walked into "blah blah blah n*****s blah blah" conversations in more than one occasion. Mostly in East Tennessee. The conversations were clearly not meant for me, and everyone involved seemed OK with it, and I didn't say anything because it's in the middle in the fucking pits, but you know what? Fuck those people. I'm not gonna pretend it was water off my back, and I wasn't angry and need an extra beer or two. My skin will stay moisturized, soft, unaged, and bastards like that can go fuck themselves.
You could be right, if the people are talking about a group of people in general in front of that group of people in a negative or insulting way, then sure you could say "hey, I'm one of those people you're talking about, how about keep it closed until you're in the privacy of your own company" or some such. I agree it's wrong that some people do this shit, I just don't think it's right for those it's not meant for to be about to become actively offended using aggression.
You could be right, if the people are talking about a group of people in general in front of that group of people in a negative or insulting way, then sure you could say "hey, I'm one of those people you're talking about, how about keep it closed until you're in the privacy of your own company" or some such. I agree it's wrong that some people do this shit, I just don't think it's right for those it's not meant for to be about to become actively offended using aggression.
Using aggression like violence or it's threat(which without reading the thread, but kinda understanding the people here are not retarded I can assume is what no one is is advocating), or 'using aggression' as in making use of their own first amendment right to make a closet bigot also feel uncomfortable?
Kind of defeats the point of the discussion.
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
I merely said that as long as they're not saying it at someone who can be offended by it, nobody should be offended. Say I get up on a stage and shout "fuck you kikes!" then hell yes I should be shouted at and screamed at by other people, because I would be an idiot, but say I say to my jewish friend "silly fucking kike" and he laughs, and he is jewish and he is not offended, then you shouldn't be offended.
Why? Why do you get to announce who gets to be offended about what and when? Maybe the person who overhears you woke up to find that word scrawled on his car one morning, or was called it by his boss, or just thinks it's really fucking crass. Free speech means that the government can't lock you up for expressing yourself; it isn't some blanket protection from the consequences of your actions. Your private conversation happening out in a public space is not some privileged enterprise, just as you can't walk down the street throwing knees and elbows left and right and claiming, when people tell you to fuck off, that the problem is that everyone else was too close.
If I said to him "all you kikes are fucking stupid" and someone overheard then I think my opinion might be slightly different, but the technicalities are difficult to get into.
That's what I'm talking about, dude. This ambiguity is a wonderful reason to just keep this stuff at home. What are you really missing out on by possibly not being able to call someone a stupid slur in public?
You're shitting me right? Do you really think anything I've said is my opinion of what the big problem in the world is?
You're making it sound like this is an issue that troubles your sleep, yes.
You could be right, if the people are talking about a group of people in general in front of that group of people in a negative or insulting way, then sure you could say "hey, I'm one of those people you're talking about, how about keep it closed until you're in the privacy of your own company" or some such. I agree it's wrong that some people do this shit, I just don't think it's right for those it's not meant for to be about to become actively offended using aggression.
Using aggression like violence or it's threat(which without reading the thread, but kinda understanding the people here are not retarded I can assume is what no one is is advocating), or 'using aggression' as in making use of their own first amendment right to make a closet bigot also feel uncomfortable?
Kind of defeats the point of the discussion.
Sorry, "situational bigot" as in someone who is a bigot but attempts to hide it a little bit around folks they are prejudice against, which seemed to be what you were talking about.
elks seemed to be stating that he walked into the conversation he wasn't a part of and it seemed implied they weren't particularly aware of his presence, so i kinda think it doesn't defeat much of any purpose.
whatever i deleted my post because i don't really feel like getting into a debate about it. I'm mostly tired of feeling like a schmuck because pretty much everyone I associate with is a homophobe and a racist(even the minorities) and I'm too much of a pussy and too desperate for people to be around to say anything about it. That doesn't really have anything to do with the thread.
I merely said that as long as they're not saying it at someone who can be offended by it, nobody should be offended. Say I get up on a stage and shout "fuck you kikes!" then hell yes I should be shouted at and screamed at by other people, because I would be an idiot, but say I say to my jewish friend "silly fucking kike" and he laughs, and he is jewish and he is not offended, then you shouldn't be offended.
Why? Why do you get to announce who gets to be offended about what and when? Maybe the person who overhears you woke up to find that word scrawled on his car one morning, or was called it by his boss, or just thinks it's really fucking crass. Free speech means that the government can't lock you up for expressing yourself; it isn't some blanket protection from the consequences of your actions. Your private conversation happening out in a public space is not some privileged enterprise, just as you can't walk down the street throwing knees and elbows left and right and claiming, when people tell you to fuck off, that the problem is that everyone else was too close.
Throwing elbows and physical assault is an entirely different subject so don't do that, ridiculous straw manning and creating hypothetical situations which are entirely different matters from what I'm discussing are just going to be ignored.
I don't get to announce anything about who gets offended, and I don't think anyone has the right to. I am more trying to explain that as long as the person wasn't trying to offend you, and isn't being offending to anyone but possibly the one they are speaking to shouldn't then be aggressively acted against. I've damn sure wanted to smash peoples faces in for crap they've said, and I realised that if everyone did it then nobody would be safe, because everyone does something like it. I've realised that I have said things in private to my friend, that if overheard could have been seen as scorn-worthy. It's the same thing with bad language, I personally think that the words "fuck" etc shouldn't be looked down on by people.
If I said to him "all you kikes are fucking stupid" and someone overheard then I think my opinion might be slightly different, but the technicalities are difficult to get into.
That's what I'm talking about, dude. This ambiguity is a wonderful reason to just keep this stuff at home. What are you really missing out on by possibly not being able to call someone a stupid slur in public?
You're pretty much right there I will agree, I am not missing out on anything and it would help to make other people more comfortable. But should I be writing in to the big networks and the newspapers and screaming bloody murder because Chapelle said "cracker", or because a comedian made a joke about ginger people or called Welsh people sheepshaggers? I think it just starts going into making people afraid to make even a joke about these things sometimes.
You're shitting me right? Do you really think anything I've said is my opinion of what the big problem in the world is?
You're making it sound like this is an issue that troubles your sleep, yes.
Well I assure you this is in no way the case, I am merely discussing, and I do not hold strong views on this subject.
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HachfaceNot the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking ofDammit, Shepard!Registered Userregular
edited October 2009
A thick skin is a good thing to have. The world is full of petty insults, especially if you're a minority. But it's rarely appropriate to tell someone to "grow a thicker skin" when they are complaining of an insult based on their disadvantaged status. First of all, it's likely they have a thicker skin than you realize, and that the offense that drives them to speak up is just the tip of the iceberg. Second, telling someone to "grow a thicker skin" when they speak out against discrimination is ascribing weakness to an act that is usually quite bold. People are rarely receptive to the idea that they might have said something racist (for example), so speaking up pretty much requires a backbone against argument and ridicule.
A thick skin is a good thing to have. The world is full of petty insults, especially if you're a minority. But it's rarely appropriate to tell someone to "grow a thicker skin" when they are complaining of an insult based on their disadvantaged status. First of all, it's likely they have a thicker skin than you realize, and that the offense that drives them to speak up is just the tip of the iceberg. Second, telling someone to "grow a thicker skin" when they speak out against discrimination is ascribing weakness to an act that is usually quite bold. People are rarely receptive to the idea that they might have said something racist (for example), so speaking up pretty much requires a backbone against argument and ridicule.
True, very true.
Me jokingly insulting my friend (hypothetical) about being jewish in a place where I don't expect to be overheard is not exactly me insulting a person of disadvantaged status, or insulting at all in fact, because it's not meant that way. Also, of course I understand that these people who take shit all day from it have quite thick skins, I've had to have one pretty thick myself, and I'm not telling someone who is speaking out about the negatives of racism/sexism/homophobia to grow a thicker skin, I'm more trying to say that it's almost like the idea of reverse racism now, in that people talk so much about race issues/sexism/homosexual rights that it's actually effecting laws and peoples rights. It's the rolling snowball idea I'm against mostly, I don't want it to end up with me accidentally calling my friend a gay and being arrested for it.
The dude also works customer service for a large bank where he is legally required to identify himself on each call. So twenty times a day he hears some variant on "Rasheed? [not his real name] Where I callin' you at, Rasheed? You talk English?"
And some days he gets fucking sick of it all and stays home.
Obviously the problem here is his terribly thin skin.
Working in customer service and complaining about having to take shit from people is like working as a life guard and complaining that you have to get wet. I don't care if your name is John Smith and you sound on the phone like Brian Gibson people are still going to give you tons of shit, all the time.
And in general I think people are giant dicks pretty much to anyone, and when you're a member of a disadvantaged group it's pretty easy to say "oh they're being a dick because I'm xxxx" wheras if you are not you're a lot more likely to just say "man, those guys are assholes". I've been walking on the street plenty of times at night and had people walk to the other side of the road, if I were say black I'd probably assume that it was because of skin color wheras now I think its pretty much just because a 6 ft 2 250 lb guy walking on the street alone at 11pm is pretty scary to some people regardless.
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
The dude also works customer service for a large bank where he is legally required to identify himself on each call. So twenty times a day he hears some variant on "Rasheed? [not his real name] Where I callin' you at, Rasheed? You talk English?"
And some days he gets fucking sick of it all and stays home.
Obviously the problem here is his terribly thin skin.
Working in customer service and complaining about having to take shit from people is like working as a life guard and complaining that you have to get wet. I don't care if your name is John Smith and you sound on the phone like Brian Gibson people are still going to give you tons of shit, all the time.
What a unique and germane observation. I'm going to tell my friend and see if it magically changes his life.
The dude also works customer service for a large bank where he is legally required to identify himself on each call. So twenty times a day he hears some variant on "Rasheed? [not his real name] Where I callin' you at, Rasheed? You talk English?"
And some days he gets fucking sick of it all and stays home.
Obviously the problem here is his terribly thin skin.
Working in customer service and complaining about having to take shit from people is like working as a life guard and complaining that you have to get wet. I don't care if your name is John Smith and you sound on the phone like Brian Gibson people are still going to give you tons of shit, all the time.
What a unique and germane observation. I'm going to tell my friend and see if it magically changes his life.
Well there's a good chance that getting out of his shitty job and into something that isn't hell would indeed magically change his life. I've worked customer service before, it sucks. There are no words strong enough to express what assholes people are.
The dude also works customer service for a large bank where he is legally required to identify himself on each call. So twenty times a day he hears some variant on "Rasheed? [not his real name] Where I callin' you at, Rasheed? You talk English?"
And some days he gets fucking sick of it all and stays home.
Obviously the problem here is his terribly thin skin.
Working in customer service and complaining about having to take shit from people is like working as a life guard and complaining that you have to get wet. I don't care if your name is John Smith and you sound on the phone like Brian Gibson people are still going to give you tons of shit, all the time.
And in general I think people are giant dicks pretty much to anyone, and when you're a member of a disadvantaged group it's pretty easy to say "oh they're being a dick because I'm xxxx" wheras if you are not you're a lot more likely to just say "man, those guys are assholes". I've been walking on the street plenty of times at night and had people walk to the other side of the road, if I were say black I'd probably assume that it was because of skin color wheras now I think its pretty much just because a 6 ft 2 250 lb guy walking on the street alone at 11pm is pretty scary to some people regardless.
Yeah, it's just that, because the legacy of slavery, Jim Crow, and racism in the US and everything parents passed to their children just disappeared in 1965. Boof! To thin air. Racism was no more.
The dude also works customer service for a large bank where he is legally required to identify himself on each call. So twenty times a day he hears some variant on "Rasheed? [not his real name] Where I callin' you at, Rasheed? You talk English?"
And some days he gets fucking sick of it all and stays home.
Obviously the problem here is his terribly thin skin.
Working in customer service and complaining about having to take shit from people is like working as a life guard and complaining that you have to get wet. I don't care if your name is John Smith and you sound on the phone like Brian Gibson people are still going to give you tons of shit, all the time.
And in general I think people are giant dicks pretty much to anyone, and when you're a member of a disadvantaged group it's pretty easy to say "oh they're being a dick because I'm xxxx" wheras if you are not you're a lot more likely to just say "man, those guys are assholes". I've been walking on the street plenty of times at night and had people walk to the other side of the road, if I were say black I'd probably assume that it was because of skin color wheras now I think its pretty much just because a 6 ft 2 250 lb guy walking on the street alone at 11pm is pretty scary to some people regardless.
Yeah, it's just that, because the legacy of slavery, Jim Crow, and racism in the US and everything parents passed to their children just disappeared in 1965. Boof! To thin air. Racism was no more.
Because saying that every single example of someone being an ass isn't a personal attack directed at you because of being a certain race is exactly the same as saying that racism doesnt' exist anywhere ever.
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
Well there's a good chance that getting out of his shitty job and into something that isn't hell would indeed magically change his life. I've worked customer service before, it sucks. There are no words strong enough to express what assholes people are.
Yeah, I've worked customer service too and I can say that dealing with assholes who hate you because you, the agent of your company, aren't giving them whatever unreasonable thing they want is an entirely different experience from talking to assholes who hate you because of who you, as yourself, are.
I categorically reject the idea that racism has anything to do with intent. If you don't think you're racist, but you say something about fried chicken and watermelon or whatever, but in your mind you don't hate black people then that mental process is irrelevant. Actions can be racist (or otherwise bigoted) even if the actor doesn't think she or he is a bigot.
Jumping in really quick after reading this.
Lenore... What you're basically saying is that I, as a card carrying member of the Quechan Tribe, can be genuinely offended at every person in this country that considers themselves "American" when, in my eyes, the true Americans are those that were here in this country first. As a member of a marginalized, nearly extinct band of Native Americans (we're only 2600 strong), I can make the determination that anyone calling themselves "American" is offensive to me and my society and can further make the claim that you're all a pack of racists for calling yourselves something you're clearly not.
right? Is this how things are supposed to work??? I really think not.
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What's wrong with your thinking process?
How thick of a skin do I need to have though? Because there's only so many times you can ignore shit or laugh it off, especially when people tell you to 'grow a thicker skin'.
So in short fuck thicker skins, call people out on bullshit then tell them to grow a thicker skin once they get all defensive. Because that is funny, and you might as well get a laugh out of it eventually.
Free speach doesn't mean: I am free to say whatever I want, but other people can't say bad things.
I'm more annoyed with things like how the law makes rape sentences less if the girl is wearing provocative outfits, or assault cases where racial intent gives a worse sentence (assault is fucking assault dammit, regardless the cause), or the idea that homosexual people aren't given the same rights as straight people, or that communities of race and religion are forced together and segregated from other communities. I don't really care what people say, it's more the stupid shit they do.
Thicker skins!
If they're in a position to deny you a job or a loan, or arrest you for looking at them cross-eyed, or physically intimidate you? Or even if they're not, maybe it's the five hundredth time today you've heard that shit and you're just exhausted beyond words? This really isn't particularly difficult or complicated.
I was at a consolation party for a newly-divorced friend of mine tonight. He's a black nerd/hipster who wears thick-rimmed glasses, corduroy pants, a leather jacket over a Spider-Man T-shirt, and tops out at maybe 5'8" and 150 lbs. He regaled us with a story about how he was walking to the grocery store one morning recently and asked a jogging white couple the time. The guy grabbed his girlfriend's wrist, said "OVER HERE, QUICK" and they booked to the other side of the street. This happened, like, yesterday. Everyone else around the table laughed and immediately one-upped it with their own recent stories.
The dude also works customer service for a large bank where he is legally required to identify himself on each call. So twenty times a day he hears some variant on "Rasheed? [not his real name] Where I callin' you at, Rasheed? You talk English?"
And some days he gets fucking sick of it all and stays home.
Obviously the problem here is his terribly thin skin.
The fact that these people are actively acting out against this guy is wrong and disgraceful, and if I was there I probably would have been annoyed at the people on the phone and the people in the street. But, I would in no way have then picked up the phone and shouted down it at the people, or would I have beaten up the people in the street. It is his life and he can deal with those things as he wants. But there shouldn't be a general idea of: you can't say or do that to your friend, even if you know the person as a friend and they're o.k with it because some other people get annoyed if a stranger says it to them.
I'm pretty sure if you're communicating it out loud it's affecting people other than you.
Yeah that's kind of the sticking point. It's the problem that if you aim a comment at someone, lets say your best friend, and then someone else becomes annoyed because they think you shouldn't be calling someone else that. What I'm saying is, other people don't have the right to be assholes to you when you're expressing free speech between you and someone who is more than o.k with what you're saying. Overhearing people shouldn't make what their saying a crime.
I replied to the part of the post that was relevant. You and your friends can call each other whatever you like, although you should still have the decency and common sense not to call, for instance, your Jewish best friend a "fucking kike" out next to the synagogue.
Can you clarify what exactly you and your friend have to do with this sentence that you wrote and that I replied to?
Do you really think the big problem with the world is "getting caught up in what other people say"?
I've walked into "blah blah blah n*****s blah blah" conversations in more than one occasion. Mostly in East Tennessee. The conversations were clearly not meant for me, and everyone involved seemed OK with it, and I didn't say anything because it's in the middle in the fucking pits, but you know what? Fuck those people. I'm not gonna pretend it was water off my back, and I wasn't angry and need an extra beer or two. My skin will stay moisturized, soft, unaged, and bastards like that can go fuck themselves.
Say me and my friend are calling each other "gay", "fat", "stupid", "English Prick", "Welsh Sheepshagger" etc etc, should anyone else have the right to come over and act offended towards us? And free speech is the idea that anybody can say anything without prosecution or persecution. I'm saying this because you seem to think I think it's o.k for people to insult those they don't know, when I didn't say that, I merely said that as long as they're not saying it at someone who can be offended by it, nobody should be offended. Say I get up on a stage and shout "fuck you kikes!" then hell yes I should be shouted at and screamed at by other people, because I would be an idiot, but say I say to my jewish friend "silly fucking kike" and he laughs, and he is jewish and he is not offended, then you shouldn't be offended. If I said to him "all you kikes are fucking stupid" and someone overheard then I think my opinion might be slightly different, but the technicalities are difficult to get into. You're shitting me right? Do you really think anything I've said is my opinion of what the big problem in the world is?
You could be right, if the people are talking about a group of people in general in front of that group of people in a negative or insulting way, then sure you could say "hey, I'm one of those people you're talking about, how about keep it closed until you're in the privacy of your own company" or some such. I agree it's wrong that some people do this shit, I just don't think it's right for those it's not meant for to be about to become actively offended using aggression.
Kind of defeats the point of the discussion.
Why? Why do you get to announce who gets to be offended about what and when? Maybe the person who overhears you woke up to find that word scrawled on his car one morning, or was called it by his boss, or just thinks it's really fucking crass. Free speech means that the government can't lock you up for expressing yourself; it isn't some blanket protection from the consequences of your actions. Your private conversation happening out in a public space is not some privileged enterprise, just as you can't walk down the street throwing knees and elbows left and right and claiming, when people tell you to fuck off, that the problem is that everyone else was too close.
That's what I'm talking about, dude. This ambiguity is a wonderful reason to just keep this stuff at home. What are you really missing out on by possibly not being able to call someone a stupid slur in public?
You're making it sound like this is an issue that troubles your sleep, yes.
Sorry, "situational bigot" as in someone who is a bigot but attempts to hide it a little bit around folks they are prejudice against, which seemed to be what you were talking about.
elks seemed to be stating that he walked into the conversation he wasn't a part of and it seemed implied they weren't particularly aware of his presence, so i kinda think it doesn't defeat much of any purpose.
whatever i deleted my post because i don't really feel like getting into a debate about it. I'm mostly tired of feeling like a schmuck because pretty much everyone I associate with is a homophobe and a racist(even the minorities) and I'm too much of a pussy and too desperate for people to be around to say anything about it. That doesn't really have anything to do with the thread.
Throwing elbows and physical assault is an entirely different subject so don't do that, ridiculous straw manning and creating hypothetical situations which are entirely different matters from what I'm discussing are just going to be ignored.
I don't get to announce anything about who gets offended, and I don't think anyone has the right to. I am more trying to explain that as long as the person wasn't trying to offend you, and isn't being offending to anyone but possibly the one they are speaking to shouldn't then be aggressively acted against. I've damn sure wanted to smash peoples faces in for crap they've said, and I realised that if everyone did it then nobody would be safe, because everyone does something like it. I've realised that I have said things in private to my friend, that if overheard could have been seen as scorn-worthy. It's the same thing with bad language, I personally think that the words "fuck" etc shouldn't be looked down on by people.
You're pretty much right there I will agree, I am not missing out on anything and it would help to make other people more comfortable. But should I be writing in to the big networks and the newspapers and screaming bloody murder because Chapelle said "cracker", or because a comedian made a joke about ginger people or called Welsh people sheepshaggers? I think it just starts going into making people afraid to make even a joke about these things sometimes.
Well I assure you this is in no way the case, I am merely discussing, and I do not hold strong views on this subject.
True, very true.
Me jokingly insulting my friend (hypothetical) about being jewish in a place where I don't expect to be overheard is not exactly me insulting a person of disadvantaged status, or insulting at all in fact, because it's not meant that way. Also, of course I understand that these people who take shit all day from it have quite thick skins, I've had to have one pretty thick myself, and I'm not telling someone who is speaking out about the negatives of racism/sexism/homophobia to grow a thicker skin, I'm more trying to say that it's almost like the idea of reverse racism now, in that people talk so much about race issues/sexism/homosexual rights that it's actually effecting laws and peoples rights. It's the rolling snowball idea I'm against mostly, I don't want it to end up with me accidentally calling my friend a gay and being arrested for it.
Working in customer service and complaining about having to take shit from people is like working as a life guard and complaining that you have to get wet. I don't care if your name is John Smith and you sound on the phone like Brian Gibson people are still going to give you tons of shit, all the time.
And in general I think people are giant dicks pretty much to anyone, and when you're a member of a disadvantaged group it's pretty easy to say "oh they're being a dick because I'm xxxx" wheras if you are not you're a lot more likely to just say "man, those guys are assholes". I've been walking on the street plenty of times at night and had people walk to the other side of the road, if I were say black I'd probably assume that it was because of skin color wheras now I think its pretty much just because a 6 ft 2 250 lb guy walking on the street alone at 11pm is pretty scary to some people regardless.
What a unique and germane observation. I'm going to tell my friend and see if it magically changes his life.
Well there's a good chance that getting out of his shitty job and into something that isn't hell would indeed magically change his life. I've worked customer service before, it sucks. There are no words strong enough to express what assholes people are.
Yeah, it's just that, because the legacy of slavery, Jim Crow, and racism in the US and everything parents passed to their children just disappeared in 1965. Boof! To thin air. Racism was no more.
Because saying that every single example of someone being an ass isn't a personal attack directed at you because of being a certain race is exactly the same as saying that racism doesnt' exist anywhere ever.
Yeah, I've worked customer service too and I can say that dealing with assholes who hate you because you, the agent of your company, aren't giving them whatever unreasonable thing they want is an entirely different experience from talking to assholes who hate you because of who you, as yourself, are.
Jumping in really quick after reading this.
Lenore... What you're basically saying is that I, as a card carrying member of the Quechan Tribe, can be genuinely offended at every person in this country that considers themselves "American" when, in my eyes, the true Americans are those that were here in this country first. As a member of a marginalized, nearly extinct band of Native Americans (we're only 2600 strong), I can make the determination that anyone calling themselves "American" is offensive to me and my society and can further make the claim that you're all a pack of racists for calling yourselves something you're clearly not.
right? Is this how things are supposed to work??? I really think not.