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[Marginalize On!] The Very Separate World of Conservative Republicans

wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
edited October 2009 in Debate and/or Discourse
This isn't meant to be another LOLpublicans thread. Rather, I wanted to bring this report by Democracy Corps to everyone's attention: http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/TheVerySeparateWorld.pdf The report, which came out last Friday, was the result of focus groups in a couple cities, the goal of which was to determine what is driving the angry conservative base. As a contrast (and bonus), we also get to see what non-idealogical but conservative leaning independents think about the direction of the country and political matters. The report isn't telling us too much more than we already know, but it does give some choice quotes to show just how far gone these people are. Oh, and even they realize that Bush was a failure of a president. Idependents come off as way more reasonable, and its clear that they aren't viewing the rabid, mouth-foaming vitriol aimed at Obama in a favorable light.

Anyway, read the pdf (it's only 16 pages) and let's discuss the implications.

When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
wwtMask on
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Posts

  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Crazy insane racists ignore truth by remaining uninformed of basic facts, oppose agenda which doesn't exist due to blinkered view of society led by manipulative false news and try to pretend that these facts are not rooted in racism by saying that they aren't racist, and that they opposed Clinton in much the same way.

    "I believe this is a center-right nation. When the Republicans start veering off their path,
    which is what they’ve done lately, bad things start happening… Yeah, I believe Bush tried
    to reach across the aisle a little bit too much and he came across as being weak and… He
    compromised."

    Ahh George Bush, that great compromiser. Truly the liberal agenda got a real slice of the pie in the office of the president over the last 8 years.

    tbloxham on
    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
  • GPIA7RGPIA7R Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    tbloxham wrote: »
    Crazy insane racists ignore truth by remaining uninformed of basic facts, oppose agenda which doesn't exist due to blinkered view of society led by manipulative false news and try to pretend that these facts are not rooted in racism by saying that they aren't racist, and that they opposed Clinton in much the same way.

    Stereotype much?

    GPIA7R on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    The idea that race has little to do with the vitriolic opposition is hard to believe, though. They are saying many of the same things they said about Clinton, but additionally they use loaded rhetoric to obliquely reference race. There are no reasons to say he's Kenyan or Muslim or to call him B. Hussein that aren't related to race. For that matter, if you have a legit complaint with him, man up and let it out. Don't presume that people are going to think you're racist for disagreeing with Obama and construct your argument based on this assumption, because then you do look as racist as someone who starts a sentence with the phrase "I'm not a racist, but..."

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    I see a lot of parallels between the conservatives quoted in that article and Christians who feel they're being persecuted and hold the belief that the outside world is wicked. Put on your spiritual armor and do not be tempted by the outside world!

    emnmnme on
  • GPIA7RGPIA7R Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Damn me for thinking the irrelevent hijacking of the thread to generalize Conservatives as racists was wrong in any way.

    There are plenty of racists out there, but it's wrong to paint with an extremely broad brush and speak as though all republicans and conservatives are.

    GPIA7R on
  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    GPIA7R wrote: »
    tbloxham wrote: »
    Crazy insane racists ignore truth by remaining uninformed of basic facts, oppose agenda which doesn't exist due to blinkered view of society led by manipulative false news and try to pretend that these facts are not rooted in racism by saying that they aren't racist, and that they opposed Clinton in much the same way.

    Stereotype much?

    When someone confesses all aspects of the stereotype precisely during a report I do. I mean, what else could you take from this? This group is opposing an agenda which does nor exist, based on the rantings of a few liars masquerading as news men. They believe George bush was too compromising for Petes sake. You can't claim that and then claim to have a reasonable political outlook.

    tbloxham on
    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
  • emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    The only time I hear criticism about Republican politicians from right-wingers is that they aren't conservative enough. Anything can be forgiven so long as it doesn't involve reaching across the aisle. Isn't that right, Mark Sanford?

    emnmnme on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    I just like how they seem aligned against a host of things that are generally considered to be good, like Medicare. And how they want to return to "the principles this nation was founded on", even though they can't articulate what that is supposed to mean. And that half of their opposition to Obama is founded on conspiracy theory bullshit. And the icing on the cake, of course, is that they claim Judeo-Christian values while decrying health reform of any kind and, indeed, are willing to sacrifice the well-being of their fellow Americans so long as Obama fails.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • SageinaRageSageinaRage Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Very interesting report. It's always bizarre to me how just a few changes in your worldview can color everything that happens around you.

    SageinaRage on
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  • KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    wwtMask wrote: »
    And the icing on the cake, of course, is that they claim Judeo-Christian values while decrying health reform of any kind and, indeed, are willing to sacrifice the well-being of their fellow Americans so long as Obama fails.

    The magic cherry on the icing for me would be if, when called on the fact that Jesus pretty clearly preached charity and taking care of the sick and all that, they used some form of Separation of Church and State to defend themselves.

    KalTorak on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    I've had a conservative tell me that Jesus meant personal charity, not government provided charity. When I asked him if he really thought that individuals were going to give enough to provide for the needy in the absence of government assistance when it's pretty clear that they don't give enough to charity to do that with the government providing assitance, he brushed it off and said it would be enough. Reality didn't seem to penetrate the self deception. If the world really worked like he thought it did, there would be no poor or homeless people.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    wwtMask wrote: »
    I've had a conservative tell me that Jesus meant personal charity, not government provided charity. When I asked him if he really thought that individuals were going to give enough to provide for the needy in the absence of government assistance when it's pretty clear that they don't give enough to charity to do that with the government providing assitance, he brushed it off and said it would be enough. Reality didn't seem to penetrate the self deception. If the world really worked like he thought it did, there would be no poor or homeless people.

    Of course - they'd all be dead.

    KalTorak on
  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    KalTorak wrote: »
    wwtMask wrote: »
    I've had a conservative tell me that Jesus meant personal charity, not government provided charity. When I asked him if he really thought that individuals were going to give enough to provide for the needy in the absence of government assistance when it's pretty clear that they don't give enough to charity to do that with the government providing assitance, he brushed it off and said it would be enough. Reality didn't seem to penetrate the self deception. If the world really worked like he thought it did, there would be no poor or homeless people.

    Of course - they'd all be dead.

    I believe the word is raptured.

    tbloxham on
    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
  • The Crowing OneThe Crowing One Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Man, this is one of the most enjoyable things I have read on PA recently. This is a great study, and I kept expecting a liberal bias to creep in, but it never really did.

    If anyone can recall many of my posts in D&D, or even this one, you'll get a chuckle out of the fact that I'm a registered Republican. I believe, strongly, in fiscal responsibility and personal liberty. The problem is that we have big-government conservatives and big-government liberals. As a fiscal conservative I don't have a voice, and if I were interested in supporting politicians I'm stuck with loony, quacked-out "libertarians" who are more than willing to ignore economic realities in order to push their brand of government.

    I sympathize with the "non-Republican conservatives" that were engaged in the study.

    I want health-care to pass, and I want a public option. If there's one thing that I've learned in my work where I deal with large financial institutions constantly, it's that corporations are just as disorganized and inefficient as anyone else. There's some myth out there that "for-profit$" organizations are somehow more effective and better organized. This is a downright lie. Everyone is human, and as humans we screw up. Usually often and loudly.

    I believe that libertarians would be a legit force with if they, as a platform, admitted that government is an element of economics. Efficiency and elimination of "waste" would work for pretty much everything across the board. Hell, I look at my office and dream of ways to make everything more efficient and less wasteful.

    It's like they're playing at archery with a velcro dartboard, and wondering why the arrows rip the target open.

    The Crowing One on
    3rddocbottom.jpg
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Man, this is one of the most enjoyable things I have read on PA recently. This is a great study, and I kept expecting a liberal bias to creep in, but it never really did.

    If anyone can recall many of my posts in D&D, or even this one, you'll get a chuckle out of the fact that I'm a registered Republican. I believe, strongly, in fiscal responsibility and personal liberty. The problem is that we have big-government conservatives and big-government liberals. As a fiscal conservative I don't have a voice, and if I were interested in supporting politicians I'm stuck with loony, quacked-out "libertarians" who are more than willing to ignore economic realities in order to push their brand of government.

    I sympathize with the "non-Republican conservatives" that were engaged in the study.

    I want health-care to pass, and I want a public option. If there's one thing that I've learned in my work where I deal with large financial institutions constantly, it's that corporations are just as disorganized and inefficient as anyone else. There's some myth out there that "for-profit$" organizations are somehow more effective and better organized. This is a downright lie. Everyone is human, and as humans we screw up. Usually often and loudly.

    I believe that libertarians would be a legit force with if they, as a platform, admitted that government is an element of economics. Efficiency and elimination of "waste" would work for pretty much everything across the board. Hell, I look at my office and dream of ways to make everything more efficient and less wasteful.

    It's like they're playing at archery with a velcro dartboard, and wondering why the arrows rip the target open.

    You sound reasonable, you should really re-register independent. :P

    enlightenedbum on
    Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
  • KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    The Crowing One, the sad thing is if you were an elected Republican, you'd probably be getting threats of primaries/death right about now.

    KalTorak on
  • The Crowing OneThe Crowing One Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    KalTorak wrote: »
    The Crowing One, the sad thing is if you were an elected Republican, you'd probably be getting threats of primaries/death right about now.

    And that's the problem.

    I consider myself "conservative" in a developed nations sense. As in, our "conservatives" are little better than Victorian-era jackasses.

    Seriously, I'm considered venomously "leftists" in most American circles. That's the issue, that we're so far skewed to the right that our political spectrum is the equivalent of 1950's Europe. I don't believe in rampant government spending, but that spending is a part of our economy and should be treated as such. Even "social programs" like medicare and Social Security are awesome, to me, as I believe that there must be a commitment to ensuring that we treat our citizens as such: citizens of the "last remaining superpower". It's a damn embarrassment. In addition, as a "libertarian" I believe it important that the government regulate the economy, because without it we wouldn't have a free market. Public Option is free market, private monopoly isn't.

    there is hardly a single politician I actually support. Snow (Snowe, with an "e"?) up in Maine I've been digging a little.

    The Crowing One on
    3rddocbottom.jpg
  • MelksterMelkster Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Thanks a ton for posting this, wwtMask.

    What is most striking about this report is the lack of focus by these conservative Republicans: What do they want to get done? What is their message? What do they want accomplished? It seems unclear.

    Right now, it seems all about opposition, and that's it. Government bad. Obama bad. Health care reform bad. Taxes bad.

    So what do conservatives care about? The article points to a few answers:
    In our favorability exercise, they give the National Rifle Association a 74.3 mean rating on a 100-point scale, and pro-life, anti abortion groups a mean score of 61.8. They have extremely low feelings toward gay marriage, rating it even lower than they rate the state of the economy, and almost all – 90 percent – oppose health care reform out of hand.

    ... Asked about the issues of greatest importance to them in choosing a candidate for Congress, health care ranked sixth among the Republicans, below issues such as tax cuts, immigration, and a candidate’s personal values and faith...

    Most importantly, though, what seems to be uniting the conservative Republicans now is just plain old opposition to Obama, and it seems to be totally irrational and without actual evidence.



    Oh, and this last part scared me:

    Asked what their party needs to reinvigorate itself and close the gap between its leaders and its rank and file, these conservative Republicans are almost unanimous in their solution – new leadership. And although they expressed some hope for a variety of names (Gingrich, Romney, Huckabee, Jindal), there was only one figure who truly excited them and created real passion – Sarah Palin. They see in her the uncompromising personal conviction and integrity that they admired in Bush, but with an authentic conservatism that reflects her personal background.

    I just hope that Sarah Palin has Hillary's backbone because she is going to need it and that is the thing. I would vote for her in a heartbeat. I love Sarah Palin.

    [And what about Palin's horrible performance in interviews? The ones that betrayed a deep-seated ignorance of basic issues that the person next-in-line to the highest office in the nation ought to know? It's the result of the liberal media, of course.]

    The one point they all agree on is that Palin was a victim of an unprecedented smear campaign. Reflecting in many ways their feelings about themselves as a group, they say Palin was targeted by the liberal media like no other figure in modern history because they both feared her and hated her for her unwavering values and beliefs.

    Melkster on
  • KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Hah, they hope Palin has a backbone? She whined about media coverage till everyone's ears bled, and got to the point of resigning because she couldn't take it (or wanted more money, or whatever). What's that saying about getting out of the kitchen?

    KalTorak on
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    KalTorak wrote: »
    Hah, they hope Palin has a backbone? She whined about media coverage till everyone's ears bled, and got to the point of resigning because she couldn't take it (or wanted more money, or whatever). What's that saying about getting out of the kitchen?

    Women shouldn't?
    Sorry, I couldn't resist in the Conservative Republican thread

    enlightenedbum on
    Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
  • KhavallKhavall British ColumbiaRegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    KalTorak wrote: »
    Hah, they hope Palin has a backbone? She whined about media coverage till everyone's ears bled, and got to the point of resigning because she couldn't take it (or wanted more money, or whatever). What's that saying about getting out of the kitchen?

    Don't you see, she was right! The media was being awful to her! Just because she wanted to be able to call out anyone ever for retarded shit she made up doesn't give them the right to come at her with facts!

    Khavall on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    And to put this marginalization into perspective: the percentage of self-identifying Republicans has decreased since Obama took office The uptick in independents seems to be more of a loss for the Republicans than Democrats, and when you consider the results of the Democracy Corps report, independents aren't very impressed with Republicans.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • unitedshoes86unitedshoes86 Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Let me begin by saying I am an independent, and despise both parties. The reasons I disliked Bush are the same reasons I dislike Obama. I am sorry this government takes way too much of my paycheck. Our police force is drastically disproportional. The foreign policy of Bush, continued by Obama, is fracking trash and should be stopped. Right here is one of the reasons the two party pisses me off. Now that we have a democrat president all the conservatives have started protesting, and the anti-war protests have all but dissipated. Also I want to reply to wwtMASK about his Judeo-Christian comment, I do not know which one it is but I am pretty sure on of the ten commandments is "thou shall not covet thy neighbors goods" and I'll leave it at that.
    Also, I am a Libertarian like The Crowing One, but I believe you need to look up the definition of free market, no offense intended, I suggest studying Von Mises. Because even the Cartesian economics taught in schools is B.S.
    I wantto end this by saying none of my personal opinions are emotional driven bu rather upon logic, empirical data, and historical similarities; and has nothing to do with race or hatred.

    unitedshoes86 on
    "It’s about those moments when you can feel the perfection of creation, the beauty of physics, the wonder of mathematics, you know?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    FOR THE BLOOD GOD.

    KalTorak on
  • The Crowing OneThe Crowing One Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Also, I am a Libertarian like The Crowing One, but I believe you need to look up the definition of free market, no offense intended, I suggest studying Von Mises. Because even the Cartesian economics taught in schools is B.S.
    I wantto end this by saying none of my personal opinions are emotional driven bu rather upon logic, empirical data, and historical similarities; and has nothing to do with race or hatred.

    And this is why I shy away from identifying myself as a libertarian, or at least use quotation marks.

    I don't care what the "definition" of the "free market" is, and I don't care about the stance made by current Libertarians (big "L"). I believe that taxes are necessary, and I believe that there's a means of reconciling stupid libertarian stances on things like taxation, and allowing for fiscal responsibility and "small-ish" government. I'm far from a Libertarian, but they fit my viewpoint best of all the current philosophies. I also understand that government will always be "big", and it is a necessity of any modern state to ensure a minimum standard of living. Libertarians don't like that.

    I think that the most reasonable conservative standpoint is socially liberal and fiscally conservative, because conservative social stances are not informed by things like logic and reason.

    We can meet half-way, but the strict dogma prevents us from actually making it a winning political philosophy.

    The Crowing One on
    3rddocbottom.jpg
  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Also compared to just about every other developed nation our taxes are laughably low.

    trouble is we spend so much on the military most citizens see a much worse return on their tax dollars.

    nexuscrawler on
  • unitedshoes86unitedshoes86 Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Also, I am a Libertarian like The Crowing One, but I believe you need to look up the definition of free market, no offense intended, I suggest studying Von Mises. Because even the Cartesian economics taught in schools is B.S.
    I wantto end this by saying none of my personal opinions are emotional driven bu rather upon logic, empirical data, and historical similarities; and has nothing to do with race or hatred.

    And this is why I shy away from identifying myself as a libertarian, or at least use quotation marks.

    I don't care what the "definition" of the "free market" is, and I don't care about the stance made by current Libertarians (big "L"). I believe that taxes are necessary, and I believe that there's a means of reconciling stupid libertarian stances on things like taxation, and allowing for fiscal responsibility and "small-ish" government. I'm far from a Libertarian, but they fit my viewpoint best of all the current philosophies. I also understand that government will always be "big", and it is a necessity of any modern state to ensure a minimum standard of living. Libertarians don't like that.

    I think that the most reasonable conservative standpoint is socially liberal and fiscally conservative, because conservative social stances are not informed by things like logic and reason.

    We can meet half-way, but the strict dogma prevents us from actually making it a winning political philosophy.

    You are right, it is not as if I do not believe in taxes. But its both how, who, and why. The federal government, the most inefficient, put their filthy hands into any jar they can. Even though States can provide far better care for their state as they can directly meet their needs, unlike federal blanket coverage. And so much is wasteful spending, such as was pointed out previously the amount needed to pay for an idiotic foreign policy. I am also unsure what you mean by socially liberal and fiscally conservative, because you seem to have a non-dictionary definition of free market so this could mean any multitude of things. I also know we will always have a big government, but our government is much too large, and some of those powers the fed has should be sent back to the States.

    unitedshoes86 on
    "It’s about those moments when you can feel the perfection of creation, the beauty of physics, the wonder of mathematics, you know?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Also I want to reply to wwtMASK about his Judeo-Christian comment, I do not know which one it is but I am pretty sure on of the ten commandments is "thou shall not covet thy neighbors goods" and I'll leave it at that.

    I wish this had something at all to do with the point I was making about the inconsistency of conservative "fuck poor people" ideology with Judeo-Christian values. Since we're talking about the commandments, love thy neighbor as thyself seems to be conveniently ignored but very neatly explains why a real Christian should be happy that his tax dollars go towards helping out his fellow man. Most Republicans only seem to be happy when their tax dollars are lining their own pockets or the pockets of rich people and corporations.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Also I want to reply to wwtMASK about his Judeo-Christian comment, I do not know which one it is but I am pretty sure on of the ten commandments is "thou shall not covet thy neighbors goods" and I'll leave it at that.

    I thought that one was about not coveting thy neighbor's wife's ass?

    Tofystedeth on
    steam_sig.png
  • KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Also I want to reply to wwtMASK about his Judeo-Christian comment, I do not know which one it is but I am pretty sure on of the ten commandments is "thou shall not covet thy neighbors goods" and I'll leave it at that.

    I thought that one was about not coveting thy neighbor's wife's ass?

    It varies; sometimes there are two separate ones to differentiate between possessions and wife.

    KalTorak on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Also I want to reply to wwtMASK about his Judeo-Christian comment, I do not know which one it is but I am pretty sure on of the ten commandments is "thou shall not covet thy neighbors goods" and I'll leave it at that.

    I thought that one was about not coveting thy neighbor's wife's ass?

    I'm still trying to figure out what the hell it has to do with what I originally said. To put it plainly, if your answer to whether our country should provide healthcare for all is to talk a lot of shit about free markets and opposing any attempts to provide healthcare, I will gladly call bullshit everytime you bleat about Judeo-Christian values.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • unitedshoes86unitedshoes86 Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    wwtMask wrote: »
    Also I want to reply to wwtMASK about his Judeo-Christian comment, I do not know which one it is but I am pretty sure on of the ten commandments is "thou shall not covet thy neighbors goods" and I'll leave it at that.

    I wish this had something at all to do with the point I was making about the inconsistency of conservative "fuck poor people" ideology with Judeo-Christian values. Since we're talking about the commandments, love thy neighbor as thyself seems to be conveniently ignored but very neatly explains why a real Christian should be happy that his tax dollars go towards helping out his fellow man. Most Republicans only seem to be happy when their tax dollars are lining their own pockets or the pockets of rich people and corporations.

    O get over the whole Republican thing, A. I am not one, and B. they are a dying breed. And it has everything to do with what you are saying. You are claiming for the redistribution of finances, and all I am saying is that according to christian ideology you should be happy with you have, and collect from the fruits of your own labors instead of others. I just do not understand why the Republicans are always brought up even when they are not mentioned. Oh that's right people who buy into the two party system do not so much strengthen their argument but try and weaken their opponent's, that being the other party, argument through name calling and non-factual based arguments. Oh and one last thing I give a higher percentage of my paycheck to charity than the government gives out.

    unitedshoes86 on
    "It’s about those moments when you can feel the perfection of creation, the beauty of physics, the wonder of mathematics, you know?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    KalTorak wrote: »
    Also I want to reply to wwtMASK about his Judeo-Christian comment, I do not know which one it is but I am pretty sure on of the ten commandments is "thou shall not covet thy neighbors goods" and I'll leave it at that.

    I thought that one was about not coveting thy neighbor's wife's ass?

    It varies; sometimes there are two separate ones to differentiate between possessions and wife.

    I was just being facetious. I saw an opportunity for a crude sexual joke so I took it. I'd be a bad forumer if I didn't.

    I can only assume you (untied, not you Kal) brought up as some kind of attempt to say we should keep our tax-loving hands off of other people's hard earned money. Why didn't you just use "thou shalt not steal?" Besides, Jesus tells us to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, so from Judeo-Christian standpoint, the newer stuff would override the old. The old was probably more likely meant to stem intra-tribal conflict in a period where they could scarce afford it anyway. Not like it was some kind of edict about how to form a government. Thou shalt not kill is still one I think the Gov should follow, but that's a thread that's been rehashed over and over too.

    Tofystedeth on
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  • KhavallKhavall British ColumbiaRegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    wwtMask wrote: »
    Also I want to reply to wwtMASK about his Judeo-Christian comment, I do not know which one it is but I am pretty sure on of the ten commandments is "thou shall not covet thy neighbors goods" and I'll leave it at that.

    I wish this had something at all to do with the point I was making about the inconsistency of conservative "fuck poor people" ideology with Judeo-Christian values. Since we're talking about the commandments, love thy neighbor as thyself seems to be conveniently ignored but very neatly explains why a real Christian should be happy that his tax dollars go towards helping out his fellow man. Most Republicans only seem to be happy when their tax dollars are lining their own pockets or the pockets of rich people and corporations.

    O get over the whole Republican thing, A. I am not one, and B. they are a dying breed. And it has everything to do with what you are saying. You are claiming for the redistribution of finances, and all I am saying is that according to christian ideology you should be happy with you have, and collect from the fruits of your own labors instead of others. I just do not understand why the Republicans are always brought up even when they are not mentioned. Oh that's right people who buy into the two party system do not so much strengthen their argument but try and weaken their opponent's, that being the other party, argument through name calling and non-factual based arguments. Oh and one last thing I give a higher percentage of my paycheck to charity than the government gives out.

    What the fuck

    Ok first off, this is a thread about republicans, so it's probably a good bet that there's going to be something about republicans in the thread. Secondly, ignoring part of an ideology to really stretch another part so thin blowing on it will break it is a really stupid way of arguing, thirdly, seriously what the fuck do you just have a machine gun of generic rage that you had to shoot off or something?

    Oh and by the way "You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor." does not say "CHARITY IS BAD". It in fact says nothing about the rich giving to the poor. Nor does it say that if your neighbor gives you some money for food because you have none that's in any way bad.

    Oh wait one other thing:

    You responded to a comment about republicans, he responded to you still about republicans, and then you got up in arms about how he mentioned republicans. Can you not see the problem there?

    Khavall on
  • unitedshoes86unitedshoes86 Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    KalTorak wrote: »
    Also I want to reply to wwtMASK about his Judeo-Christian comment, I do not know which one it is but I am pretty sure on of the ten commandments is "thou shall not covet thy neighbors goods" and I'll leave it at that.

    I thought that one was about not coveting thy neighbor's wife's ass?

    It varies; sometimes there are two separate ones to differentiate between possessions and wife.

    I was just being facetious. I saw an opportunity for a crude sexual joke so I took it. I'd be a bad forumer if I didn't.

    I can only assume you (untied, not you Kal) brought up as some kind of attempt to say we should keep our tax-loving hands off of other people's hard earned money. Why didn't you just use "thou shalt not steal?" Besides, Jesus tells us to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, so from Judeo-Christian standpoint, the newer stuff would override the old. The old was probably more likely meant to stem intra-tribal conflict in a period where they could scarce afford it anyway. Not like it was some kind of edict about how to form a government. Thou shalt not kill is still one I think the Gov should follow, but that's a thread that's been rehashed over and over too.

    Well then there is the question of what is Ceaser's? Anyway wwtMask feel free to call any B.S. you want solong as their is some factual ground argument mixed in with the crap. And I only brought up Judeo-Christian beliefs because you brought it up. It has no place in my arguments for anything.

    unitedshoes86 on
    "It’s about those moments when you can feel the perfection of creation, the beauty of physics, the wonder of mathematics, you know?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Salvation122Salvation122 Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    I think this is the most telling bit:
    ...if the people that we elect aren't doing what we are asking them to do, I really have doubts that the people who are put in without being elected by the people are doing what the people want.
    This was in reference to Obama's czars. The back half of that is, I feel, a legitimate complaint; czars have very little accountability to the public, and their powers and responsibilities are not well defined. However, the first half demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding that elections have consequences. The people the Republican base elected are doing exactly what they were elected to do, and the people that the Democrats elected are doing what their electorate voted them in for, as well (to a greater or lesser degree.) You don't get to vote for the entire Congress.

    Salvation122 on
  • unitedshoes86unitedshoes86 Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Khavall wrote: »
    wwtMask wrote: »
    Also I want to reply to wwtMASK about his Judeo-Christian comment, I do not know which one it is but I am pretty sure on of the ten commandments is "thou shall not covet thy neighbors goods" and I'll leave it at that.

    I wish this had something at all to do with the point I was making about the inconsistency of conservative "fuck poor people" ideology with Judeo-Christian values. Since we're talking about the commandments, love thy neighbor as thyself seems to be conveniently ignored but very neatly explains why a real Christian should be happy that his tax dollars go towards helping out his fellow man. Most Republicans only seem to be happy when their tax dollars are lining their own pockets or the pockets of rich people and corporations.

    O get over the whole Republican thing, A. I am not one, and B. they are a dying breed. And it has everything to do with what you are saying. You are claiming for the redistribution of finances, and all I am saying is that according to christian ideology you should be happy with you have, and collect from the fruits of your own labors instead of others. I just do not understand why the Republicans are always brought up even when they are not mentioned. Oh that's right people who buy into the two party system do not so much strengthen their argument but try and weaken their opponent's, that being the other party, argument through name calling and non-factual based arguments. Oh and one last thing I give a higher percentage of my paycheck to charity than the government gives out.

    What the fuck

    Ok first off, this is a thread about republicans, so it's probably a good bet that there's going to be something about republicans in the thread. Secondly, ignoring part of an ideology to really stretch another part so thin blowing on it will break it is a really stupid way of arguing, thirdly, seriously what the fuck do you just have a machine gun of generic rage that you had to shoot off or something?

    Oh and by the way "You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor." does not say "CHARITY IS BAD". It in fact says nothing about the rich giving to the poor. Nor does it say that if your neighbor gives you some money for food because you have none that's in any way bad.

    Oh wait one other thing:

    You responded to a comment about republicans, he responded to you still about republicans, and then you got up in arms about how he mentioned republicans. Can you not see the problem there?

    First off I have no idea what rage you are talking about. Secondly I made the republican comment because he was inferring my views were that of republicans. And where did I say charity was bad? You really shouldn't make stuff up.

    unitedshoes86 on
    "It’s about those moments when you can feel the perfection of creation, the beauty of physics, the wonder of mathematics, you know?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    wwtMask wrote: »
    Also I want to reply to wwtMASK about his Judeo-Christian comment, I do not know which one it is but I am pretty sure on of the ten commandments is "thou shall not covet thy neighbors goods" and I'll leave it at that.

    I wish this had something at all to do with the point I was making about the inconsistency of conservative "fuck poor people" ideology with Judeo-Christian values. Since we're talking about the commandments, love thy neighbor as thyself seems to be conveniently ignored but very neatly explains why a real Christian should be happy that his tax dollars go towards helping out his fellow man. Most Republicans only seem to be happy when their tax dollars are lining their own pockets or the pockets of rich people and corporations.

    O get over the whole Republican thing, A. I am not one, and B. they are a dying breed. And it has everything to do with what you are saying. You are claiming for the redistribution of finances, and all I am saying is that according to christian ideology you should be happy with you have, and collect from the fruits of your own labors instead of others. I just do not understand why the Republicans are always brought up even when they are not mentioned. Oh that's right people who buy into the two party system do not so much strengthen their argument but try and weaken their opponent's, that being the other party, argument through name calling and non-factual based arguments. Oh and one last thing I give a higher percentage of my paycheck to charity than the government gives out.

    Someone clearly skipped a good part of the New Testament (how often did Jesus eat and drink for free, give food and money away, advise people to sell all their shit and give to charity, tell people to pay their fucking taxes?). Also, that percentage of your paycheck that goes to charity is still a very small drop in the bucket of what the US government spends on charity and social safety net. It'd take a lot of people donating money to equal that, and I can guarantee you that most people aren't donating, at least not enough to seriously question the involvement of government in social services and charity. Also, tax deductions make charitable giving less awesome than if the government didn't just write off the loss of revenue (that is, by making it financially attractive to donate to charity, the government is underwriting charities anyway. If you take the charitable donation deduction in your taxes, you're really just reducing the amount of your money that goes to tax revenue while the government is paying for the donation).

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • unitedshoes86unitedshoes86 Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    wwtMask wrote: »
    wwtMask wrote: »
    Also I want to reply to wwtMASK about his Judeo-Christian comment, I do not know which one it is but I am pretty sure on of the ten commandments is "thou shall not covet thy neighbors goods" and I'll leave it at that.

    I wish this had something at all to do with the point I was making about the inconsistency of conservative "fuck poor people" ideology with Judeo-Christian values. Since we're talking about the commandments, love thy neighbor as thyself seems to be conveniently ignored but very neatly explains why a real Christian should be happy that his tax dollars go towards helping out his fellow man. Most Republicans only seem to be happy when their tax dollars are lining their own pockets or the pockets of rich people and corporations.

    O get over the whole Republican thing, A. I am not one, and B. they are a dying breed. And it has everything to do with what you are saying. You are claiming for the redistribution of finances, and all I am saying is that according to christian ideology you should be happy with you have, and collect from the fruits of your own labors instead of others. I just do not understand why the Republicans are always brought up even when they are not mentioned. Oh that's right people who buy into the two party system do not so much strengthen their argument but try and weaken their opponent's, that being the other party, argument through name calling and non-factual based arguments. Oh and one last thing I give a higher percentage of my paycheck to charity than the government gives out.

    Someone clearly skipped a good part of the New Testament (how often did Jesus eat and drink for free, give food and money away, advise people to sell all their shit and give to charity, tell people to pay their fucking taxes?). Also, that percentage of your paycheck that goes to charity is still a very small drop in the bucket of what the US government spends on charity and social safety net. It'd take a lot of people donating money to equal that, and I can guarantee you that most people aren't donating, at least not enough to seriously question the involvement of government in social services and charity. Also, tax deductions make charitable giving less awesome than if the government didn't just write off the loss of revenue (that is, by making it financially attractive to donate to charity, the government is underwriting charities anyway. If you take the charitable donation deduction in your taxes, you're really just reducing the amount of your money that goes to tax revenue while the government is paying for the donation).

    Actually you really need to look up your numbers. Then you would see the U.S. government donates very little based upon GDP, whereas the American people are the number one donators in the world.

    unitedshoes86 on
    "It’s about those moments when you can feel the perfection of creation, the beauty of physics, the wonder of mathematics, you know?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    I can only assume you (untied, not you Kal) brought up as some kind of attempt to say we should keep our tax-loving hands off of other people's hard earned money. Why didn't you just use "thou shalt not steal?" Besides, Jesus tells us to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, so from Judeo-Christian standpoint, the newer stuff would override the old. The old was probably more likely meant to stem intra-tribal conflict in a period where they could scarce afford it anyway. Not like it was some kind of edict about how to form a government. Thou shalt not kill is still one I think the Gov should follow, but that's a thread that's been rehashed over and over too.

    Well then there is the question of what is Ceaser's?

    Well, that would be the taxes Caesar collects to build roads and ... you know what?
    here.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso

    Tofystedeth on
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