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[WoW] [Raiding] is way too easy

Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
edited February 2010 in MMO Extravaganza
BLIZZARD IS CLEARLY CATERING TO CASUALS

A SLAP IN THE FACE!

BRING BACK HARD DESIGN!


No, I don't do hard modes, why?

Munkus Beaver on
Steam name: munkus_beaver
Blizzard thing: munkus#1952
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Humor can be dissected, as a frog can, but it dies in the process.
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Posts

  • ShinyoShinyo Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    ToC 10 man: One-shot every boss with ease, no wipes.
    ToC 10 man hard: Wipe on Beasts of Northrend 20 times, give up.

  • EndEnd Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    But 10man TOGC isn't even hard

    ...as 25man TOGC.

    :P

    Speaking of which, there's been a guy trying to set up a 25man ToGC on my server. :o

    so dark and foul I can't disguise
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  • ShinyoShinyo Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    A...a 25 man ToGC PUG?

  • Panda4YouPanda4You Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    LFM togc 2 tanks 5 heal 16 dps. link achi plz

    "In this discussion of copyright it's actually appropriate to call it theft:
    This music is being (preemptively) removed from the public domain; it's being stolen from the people."
  • EndEnd Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Shinyo wrote: »
    A...a 25 man ToGC PUG?

    Yeah.

    Imagine my amazement.

    If he can find 25 people (24+himself) who can do it, he should really form a guild out of it.

    so dark and foul I can't disguise
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  • KainyKainy Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    End wrote: »
    Shinyo wrote: »
    A...a 25 man ToGC PUG?

    Yeah.

    Imagine my amazement.

    If he can find 25 people (24+himself) who can do it, he should really form a guild out of it.

    There's a guy who runs pug raids on my server who did 1 light before ToC came out, so PuGs can run pretty well as long as the RL is willing to be absolutely ruthless. The guy's a huge asshole, but his runs are sure successful!

    IcyLiquid wrote: »
    There's anti-fuckery code in there now :) Sorry :)
  • OptyOpty Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    I only see ToGC10 pugs on my server, requiring 4/5 ToGC bosses killed.

  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Normal TOC pugs on my server almost never drop Anub if they get there. It's hillarious watching the flame wars spill over into every global channel the server has when they blame low DPS for wiping during the first submerge.

  • RealityburnRealityburn Registered User
    edited November 2009
    Shinyo wrote: »
    A...a 25 man ToGC PUG?

    Very plausible, as i've personally run a 25 man ToGC pug 6~ weeks in a row.

    Yes, you have to be extremely ruthless and unforgiving.

    It personally takes us 60 or so minutes of our personal time to setup and we reserve a trophy for our small 8-12 man casual guild. (casual as in, we raid 2 nights a week)

  • RealityburnRealityburn Registered User
    edited November 2009
    I'd like to add Korgath (my server) runs nearly 3-4 Horde Side 25m successful pug TOGC runs.

    It's impressive imo (I have 2 piece i245 holy/ret/prot) from doing the 25m pug so many times

    :?

  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited November 2009
    you can get 2pc ilevel245 from normal 25man ToC though...are you sure that G is meant to be in that acronym.

    Tube-san wrote:
    I apologise for my rudeness desu.
  • shadowaneshadowane Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Does the heroic 25 man even drop trophies off bosses?

    Rich on Beer - I talk about drinking beer. You read about it.
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited November 2009
    yes, absolutely.

    Tube-san wrote:
    I apologise for my rudeness desu.
  • LorahaloLorahalo Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Which seems rather silly. Our 25 man group (which is horribly geared) is having trouble finding people who need one.

    3DS: 1118-0244-2697
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited November 2009
    25 people, all of whom theoretically need four each, thats 100 trophies. assuming one per boss, thats five per week. 20 weeks to get 100 trophies. 10 weeks if you clear both normal and hard every week. AND thats not including people who don't always get to go every week. That doesn't seem too unrealistic, which gives each person the chance at offspec gear.

    If you have multiple groups clearing hardmode 10man each week thats also a fair few more a week.

    Tube-san wrote:
    I apologise for my rudeness desu.
  • a Ferreta Ferret 360 Dunk from Half Court Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Our trophies have been going to offspecs for the past three weeks. We were running two 25 man groups suppported by alts to get people their trophies fast, but soon we'll probably be vendoring them to cover our repairs from 50 damn wipes on H anub every single week.

    last.fm LoL: Applesnapple | 3DS 2681-0927-8518
  • BikkstahBikkstah Registered User
    edited November 2009
    I waited a few weeks to let all the people who've been hoarding DKP since we had Ulduar on farm bid 100-150 each per trophy. I just picked up 4 the other day @ minimum bid each (15).

  • LorahaloLorahalo Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    We must use a lot more DKP than other guilds do >.< Our trophies normally go for 400-600 with some very special loot (Like blade of tarasque that one time it dropped) goes for ridiculous amounts (BoT went for 1200dkp)

    3DS: 1118-0244-2697
  • TheCrumblyCrackerTheCrumblyCracker Registered User
    edited November 2009
    I was the only one that rolled on our last trophy. ITT everyone hordes DKP for TOGC loot. Sigh. The game is a lot more fun when you just roll on everything. Fuck DKP!

  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    I don't know, our experience is that the heavier we are on casters, the quicker Faction Champs can go horribly, horribly wrong. On our first heroic kill part of the reason for our success was that one unlucky death knight had the majority of their DPS beating on him for the better part of two minutes.
    Being melee heavy makes you far more vulnerable to being raped by Hellfire. It's also far more difficult to tell if you're being focused when you're in the melee/champion clusterfuck than if you're a ranged standing away from the mayhem.
    ...And this is just me splitting hairs here and really not full-on debate, but the melee-heavy/ranged-heavy disparity is nowhere near what it was in expansions past, with whirlwinds and cleaves and what have you. The only bosses that become tangibly more difficult when you're heavy on melee right now are Vezax and Onyxia, and any bosses that have an attack which favors ranged as long as X characters are at ranged, like I Choose You, Steelbreaker. There is not even remotely a bias in encounter design these days.
    Just off the top of my head: Thorim, Beasts, Jaraxxus, and more or less every boss in VoA.

    Patch 5.4 wrote:
    First win of the day now awards 150 Conquest Points (up from 100).
    Subsequent wins now awards 75 Conquest Points (up from 50).
    YES! I AM INVINCIBLE!
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Hevach wrote: »
    Normal TOC pugs on my server almost never drop Anub if they get there. It's hillarious watching the flame wars spill over into every global channel the server has when they blame low DPS for wiping during the first submerge.
    Yeah, this is how things seem to be on my server, if they're even that good.

    I don't know some people managed to get on servers where PUG raids down hard mode shit.

    Patch 5.4 wrote:
    First win of the day now awards 150 Conquest Points (up from 100).
    Subsequent wins now awards 75 Conquest Points (up from 50).
    YES! I AM INVINCIBLE!
  • OptyOpty Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    I was the only one that rolled on our last trophy. ITT everyone hordes DKP for TOGC loot. Sigh. The game is a lot more fun when you just roll on everything. Fuck DKP!
    Saving up is a dumb move. Back in the Naxx 25 days, in the guild I raided with basically everyone saved for their best in slot items except for me and a priest who just rolled on anything that was an upgrade. And we won most of the time unopposed, including sometimes for offspecs. It was ridiculous, saving yourself for best in slot is the dumbest thing you can do.

  • ForarForar #432 Already prepping for Toronto Fan Expo!Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Opty wrote: »
    I was the only one that rolled on our last trophy. ITT everyone hordes DKP for TOGC loot. Sigh. The game is a lot more fun when you just roll on everything. Fuck DKP!
    Saving up is a dumb move. Back in the Naxx 25 days, in the guild I raided with basically everyone saved for their best in slot items except for me and a priest who just rolled on anything that was an upgrade. And we won most of the time unopposed, including sometimes for offspecs. It was ridiculous, saving yourself for best in slot is the dumbest thing you can do.

    I politely disagree.

    As long as the gear is being put to use by a member of the raid that contributes regularly and is a skilled member of the team, as long as the gear isn't being sharded it shouldn't really matter who gets what, aside from tanks.

    Back in the Vanilla days, my group and I had a very simple system worked out; I saved up for weapons (specifically, swords), they snagged much of the armour at a reduced cost as I wasn't bidding on them, I snagged most of the upgrade swords for a reasonable sum (and I didn't expect to pay a pittance, but nobody pushed me to my cap even if they could, for example), and it worked fairly well even amongst a heavily populated class such as Rogues were at the time and in my guild.

    Letting items get sharded rather than pay a minimum is retarded, and I happily started building up my sets over time as we got down to only a few people needing the pieces, lest they face a fate at a disenchanter's hands, but my priorities differed from those of others, and what of it?

    Also, rolling in 5's and 10's is pro. Rolling in 25's is /facepalm worthy, unless it's content so old it's beyond farmed status, and just run by alts for shits and giggles or something.

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  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2009
    I bring my warrior to 25 man PuGs at this point because there are generally no other warriors so I win any warrior specific gear unopposed.

    But what you're talking about Forar sounds like collusion. Which is what I did in vanilla. Me and the top DPS warrior would put dibs on certain pieces of gear so we'd win them unopposed. This pissed off the warlocks, since they were hoarding their DKP to bid against the mages. And the rogues, who refused to cooperate with each other and all wanted the same stuff.

    And I got every piece of tanking gear for free since I was able to convince everyone that since I was coming to DPS, and I was spec'd to DPS, and that I was only tanking for the good of the raid and because we needed 6 of them for those limited fights, I got all of my tier 1 gear for free.

    It was good to be the king.

    Steam name: munkus_beaver
    Blizzard thing: munkus#1952
    Nintendo ID (3DS thinger): munkusbeaver
    Please give to the Crohn's and Colitis Foundation of America: http://www.ccfa.org/
    Humor can be dissected, as a frog can, but it dies in the process.
  • SeptusSeptus Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    I say that if you can attribute a numerical value to the item, and your BiS item is +100 AP equivalent points, and worse version of that drops that is +90 but will cost you less than 90% of the DKP of the BiS item, then it'd be a bad idea to pass on it.

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  • LockeColeLockeCole Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Considering our guild can't even do faction champs in 10M ToGC I can't imagine how a bitch it would be to set up a 25 man pug for it. I still hate that fight so very very much - this week we easily one shotted Beasts and Jaraxxas, then wiped for an hour and a half on faction champs. SO FRUSTRATING.

  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2009
    Are you talking about normal or heroic version? Because I can't comprehend trying to set up a 25m pug for heroic 25m Faction Champs

    Steam name: munkus_beaver
    Blizzard thing: munkus#1952
    Nintendo ID (3DS thinger): munkusbeaver
    Please give to the Crohn's and Colitis Foundation of America: http://www.ccfa.org/
    Humor can be dissected, as a frog can, but it dies in the process.
  • ForarForar #432 Already prepping for Toronto Fan Expo!Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    But what you're talking about Forar sounds like collusion.

    I suppose so, though with a less negative connotation. I simply didn't bid much on armour, and bid hard on weapons. The other rogues realized this and things just kind of settled into a natural ebb and flow from Molten Core to AQ40/Naxx40 and early T5 (though I didn't finish either instance with my original guild, so it was something of a moot point). There were exceptions; I was the first rogue in my guild to get the T2 gloves, because that "Immune to Disarm" was fucking sexy, rare as it might've been to show up in PVE at the time or not. And I cheerfully paid through the nose for that right.

    What I'm trying to say is that I simply put my priority on weapons and stuck with it, and luckily the rest of the rogues weren't assholes about it. Whereas in other instances, I've seen rather blatant arrangements between individuals, within a class or practically guild wide. Small scale examples such as the tanks effectively working out in advance who was getting what piece, and then making a small game of bumping each other around in the bids a bit, one whole class conspiring against the others to ensure that items essentially only they could use would go for a pittance so they could bid hard against classes they shared tokens with in Naxx 40, to simply agreeing to gear the person who could put a rare drop to best use.

    I agree that the collusion that can exist with a DKP system can seem shady at best from outside, but I always felt that it was actually a strength of the system in both guilds I did progression raiding for. While dead weight existed in both, it was kept mostly in check, so assuming that everyone's about equal (with variance) it simply let people determine what they wanted to focus on as a priority (based on what their class got the most out of, or what strengths they wanted to focus on or weaknesses they wished to shore up). There were rare exceptions, such as items so good (often trinkets) that people would go all out on them without hesitation and things would go from civil to cutthroat in 10 seconds, to items so rare and powerful that it would be decided that they'd bypass DKP altogether (typically legendaries). Having effective errata or subnotes to a loot system, like most others (especially Loot Council style ones) depends heavily on everyone agreeing and working with things to the best of their ability. As with any system involving people, there's bound to be people who try to game the game in one fashion or another, even if it's just not showing up on farm nights (ignoring the loss of a few points for letting more people get in to drop points as they soak up gear) or outright conspiring to ensure there's no way they can be beaten on drop X. It's only as good as the people you run with.

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  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2009
    The only problem I have about collusion is when people collude to keep others from succeeding.

    The rogues would always do this to themselves though, and it wasn't a matter of collusion. They were just bitter, hateful animals.

    When people within a DKP system collude and keep prices low, it shows cooperation if nothing else. Good team unity and all that.

    It's only an issue when it becomes something like a monopoly, and they are preventing others from bidding what they want on gear.

    Steam name: munkus_beaver
    Blizzard thing: munkus#1952
    Nintendo ID (3DS thinger): munkusbeaver
    Please give to the Crohn's and Colitis Foundation of America: http://www.ccfa.org/
    Humor can be dissected, as a frog can, but it dies in the process.
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    I bring my warrior to 25 man PuGs at this point because there are generally no other warriors so I win any warrior specific gear unopposed.

    But what you're talking about Forar sounds like collusion. Which is what I did in vanilla. Me and the top DPS warrior would put dibs on certain pieces of gear so we'd win them unopposed. This pissed off the warlocks, since they were hoarding their DKP to bid against the mages. And the rogues, who refused to cooperate with each other and all wanted the same stuff.

    And I got every piece of tanking gear for free since I was able to convince everyone that since I was coming to DPS, and I was spec'd to DPS, and that I was only tanking for the good of the raid and because we needed 6 of them for those limited fights, I got all of my tier 1 gear for free.

    It was good to be the king.
    What gear is warrior specific at this point?

    Patch 5.4 wrote:
    First win of the day now awards 150 Conquest Points (up from 100).
    Subsequent wins now awards 75 Conquest Points (up from 50).
    YES! I AM INVINCIBLE!
  • ForarForar #432 Already prepping for Toronto Fan Expo!Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    If it's anything like the older tiers, probably rogue shit.

    ... I mean, druid shit.

    Stay away from my shit!

    sigtwo.png
  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2009
    forty wrote: »
    I bring my warrior to 25 man PuGs at this point because there are generally no other warriors so I win any warrior specific gear unopposed.

    But what you're talking about Forar sounds like collusion. Which is what I did in vanilla. Me and the top DPS warrior would put dibs on certain pieces of gear so we'd win them unopposed. This pissed off the warlocks, since they were hoarding their DKP to bid against the mages. And the rogues, who refused to cooperate with each other and all wanted the same stuff.

    And I got every piece of tanking gear for free since I was able to convince everyone that since I was coming to DPS, and I was spec'd to DPS, and that I was only tanking for the good of the raid and because we needed 6 of them for those limited fights, I got all of my tier 1 gear for free.

    It was good to be the king.
    What gear is warrior specific at this point?

    Onyxia headgear, things that drop from VoA.

    Steam name: munkus_beaver
    Blizzard thing: munkus#1952
    Nintendo ID (3DS thinger): munkusbeaver
    Please give to the Crohn's and Colitis Foundation of America: http://www.ccfa.org/
    Humor can be dissected, as a frog can, but it dies in the process.
  • BikkstahBikkstah Registered User
    edited November 2009
    Lorahalo wrote: »
    We must use a lot more DKP than other guilds do >.< Our trophies normally go for 400-600 with some very special loot (Like blade of tarasque that one time it dropped) goes for ridiculous amounts (BoT went for 1200dkp)

    We do zero sum plus 20 a night (5 per hour). Normal raid nights work out to right around 25DKP. Min bid is 15, max bid is 150. On nights where stuff like Solace of the Defeated or Death's Verdict drops, we get closer to 30DKP because of the larger dividends from zero sum. When you win a bid, you pay half the difference between you and the next closest: If you bid 100 and the next bid down is 50, you pay 75. It works pretty well.

  • KafkaAUKafkaAU Western AustraliaRegistered User regular
    edited November 2009
    I think ours is pretty simple, you pay half your current DKP and can go negative. Min amount is 100, not sure exactly how much you get per item/progression night though.

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  • Dyrwen66Dyrwen66 Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Woot, my guild finally has a /raid tomorrow. Probably Ony 10. We'll be lucky if our guild can rangle up the 10 we tried to invite, but at least we'll probably run as a guild, even if it's partially PAA based.

    Somehow our guild turned into nothing but tanks and healers and all the dps went away, so we'll see how that works. Seems like raiding is relatively simple compared to my ZG/Kara/ZA experiences in the past. I ran that whole Obsidian raid on "kill all the dragons first" mode, and that was pretty neat as an off tank. Should be fun running from Onyxia soon as a real tank.

    "Famished dogs follow slowly as my own paws drag me to a dock, / to the last plank where I struggle to deny myself the path that every Pisces craves, /
    ... and I cough for every crater that I could see, / on the surface of that coffin we've come to call the moon." Circle Takes the Square
  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2009
    Obsidian Sanctum is really easy.

    As in, a /castrandom macro could probably do it.

    Just keep that in mind. Ony is a lot 'harder' than OS.

    Steam name: munkus_beaver
    Blizzard thing: munkus#1952
    Nintendo ID (3DS thinger): munkusbeaver
    Please give to the Crohn's and Colitis Foundation of America: http://www.ccfa.org/
    Humor can be dissected, as a frog can, but it dies in the process.
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited November 2009
    pretty much we aren't trying to burst your bubble here, but there is kind of two different levels when it comes to raiding

    Naxx, Ony, Sarth, VoA = technically raiding but so easy for a decent guild group that they are rarely done on a raiding night

    Everything else = actual raiding

    Tube-san wrote:
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  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Just keep that in mind. Ony is a lot 'harder' than OS.

    I wouldn't even put it in quotes, really. Compared to 0 drake sarth, Ony's almost ridiculous. 15 manning her last week dragged on forever in phase 2. Despite the gear upgrades, I'd say it was harder than when I 5 manned sarth 25 pre-3.1. She's not a particularly difficult boss, but Sarth is just pitiful weak without his buddies.

  • Monkey Ball WarriorMonkey Ball Warrior A collection of mediocre hats Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited November 2009
    25 Ony is simple from a technical standpoint, but she still hits like a mach truck. A fresh 80 can't tank her, while a fresh 80 could probably rock Sarth after a few heroics.

    I can't tell you how many fail Sarth pugs I ran before Ulduar came out. It was sad. Though I did get the Staff of Restraint from a very nice Sarth pug, which I rolled 100 on, and then proceeded to use it for 6 months straight.

    "I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
  • SeptusSeptus Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Obsidian Sanctum is really easy.

    As in, a /castrandom macro could probably do it.

    Just keep that in mind. Ony is a lot 'harder' than OS.

    Is that a challenge? That's a challenge isn't it.

    Your honor can only be saved by defeating Sarth+3.... again

    rodq.jpg
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