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[WoW] [Raiding] is way too easy

Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
edited February 2010 in MMO Extravaganza
BLIZZARD IS CLEARLY CATERING TO CASUALS

A SLAP IN THE FACE!

BRING BACK HARD DESIGN!


No, I don't do hard modes, why?

Munkus Beaver on
Steam name: munkus_beaver
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Posts

  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2009
    Obsidian Sanctum is really easy.

    As in, a /castrandom macro could probably do it.

    Just keep that in mind. Ony is a lot 'harder' than OS.

    Steam name: munkus_beaver
    Blizzard thing: munkus#1952
    Nintendo ID (3DS thinger): munkusbeaver
    Please give to the Crohn's and Colitis Foundation of America: http://www.ccfa.org/
    Humor can be dissected, as a frog can, but it dies in the process.
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited November 2009
    pretty much we aren't trying to burst your bubble here, but there is kind of two different levels when it comes to raiding

    Naxx, Ony, Sarth, VoA = technically raiding but so easy for a decent guild group that they are rarely done on a raiding night

    Everything else = actual raiding

    Tube-san wrote:
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  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Just keep that in mind. Ony is a lot 'harder' than OS.

    I wouldn't even put it in quotes, really. Compared to 0 drake sarth, Ony's almost ridiculous. 15 manning her last week dragged on forever in phase 2. Despite the gear upgrades, I'd say it was harder than when I 5 manned sarth 25 pre-3.1. She's not a particularly difficult boss, but Sarth is just pitiful weak without his buddies.

  • Monkey Ball WarriorMonkey Ball Warrior A collection of mediocre hats Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited November 2009
    25 Ony is simple from a technical standpoint, but she still hits like a mach truck. A fresh 80 can't tank her, while a fresh 80 could probably rock Sarth after a few heroics.

    I can't tell you how many fail Sarth pugs I ran before Ulduar came out. It was sad. Though I did get the Staff of Restraint from a very nice Sarth pug, which I rolled 100 on, and then proceeded to use it for 6 months straight.

    "I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
  • SeptusSeptus Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Obsidian Sanctum is really easy.

    As in, a /castrandom macro could probably do it.

    Just keep that in mind. Ony is a lot 'harder' than OS.

    Is that a challenge? That's a challenge isn't it.

    Your honor can only be saved by defeating Sarth+3.... again

    rodq.jpg
  • tehmarkentehmarken BrooklynRegistered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Two weeks ago I tanked a sarth 3 drake zerg PUG (sarth + 3, kite the first dragon that lands, kill sarth before 2nd dragon lands).

    Sarth is easy.

  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    And yet there are still raids that struggle with it.

    Patch 5.4 wrote:
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    Subsequent wins now awards 75 Conquest Points (up from 50).
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  • Dyrwen66Dyrwen66 Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Obsidian Sanctum is really easy.

    As in, a /castrandom macro could probably do it.

    Just keep that in mind. Ony is a lot 'harder' than OS.

    And... noted. We tried Ony tonight, but with only like 3 guild members and the rest semi-devoted to tanking her down, we only got to phase 3 once. Good tank, decent enough healer; but the ranged dps sucked. Had a lock/shammy/hunter and the hunter actually ran out of bullets the 2nd attempt (facepalm) but we got some of it sorted out. Somehow the hunter was 7th in dps at the final attempt though.

    Definitely have to time the phase 3 more precisely next time, since I was busy off-tanking the add while the pally tank took on the whelps when she landed and feared my ass into a wall and no heals to the death. Kinda fun otherwise.

    I assume just "disarming" the add is the only way to really handle all the dps that ignited weapon puts out right? I got the shit kicked outa me a few times when it was still on cool down.

    "Famished dogs follow slowly as my own paws drag me to a dock, / to the last plank where I struggle to deny myself the path that every Pisces craves, /
    ... and I cough for every crater that I could see, / on the surface of that coffin we've come to call the moon." Circle Takes the Square
  • SenshiSenshi Registered User
    edited November 2009
    Yeah. It's a pretty good idea to have a rogue handy for Dismantle whenever the tank's disarm is on cooldown.

    >Signatures
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    ISHYGDDT
  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2009
    Your ranged DPS should be doing nothing but Ony DPS during phase 2.

    And if you're having trouble killing her, use bloodlust at ~80% and have melee attack her until she flies just out of range. You should be able to knock her down to ~50% before the first add.

    Steam name: munkus_beaver
    Blizzard thing: munkus#1952
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    Please give to the Crohn's and Colitis Foundation of America: http://www.ccfa.org/
    Humor can be dissected, as a frog can, but it dies in the process.
  • Dyrwen66Dyrwen66 Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Your ranged DPS should be doing nothing but Ony DPS during phase 2.

    And if you're having trouble killing her, use bloodlust at ~80% and have melee attack her until she flies just out of range. You should be able to knock her down to ~50% before the first add.

    We had people following her as she went flying out of range. She was probably at 60-70% before the first add though, our ranged dps must've really shat out there into nothing. I'll have to tag team with my rogue friend next time we give it a go though, for that Dismantle ability.

    "Famished dogs follow slowly as my own paws drag me to a dock, / to the last plank where I struggle to deny myself the path that every Pisces craves, /
    ... and I cough for every crater that I could see, / on the surface of that coffin we've come to call the moon." Circle Takes the Square
  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2009
    reset your recount prior to phse 2.

    If you see your range DPS doing extended damage to other mobs, yell at them.

    Steam name: munkus_beaver
    Blizzard thing: munkus#1952
    Nintendo ID (3DS thinger): munkusbeaver
    Please give to the Crohn's and Colitis Foundation of America: http://www.ccfa.org/
    Humor can be dissected, as a frog can, but it dies in the process.
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited November 2009
    you don't even need people DPSing the whelps. they have 70k hp, your tank can kill them.

    Tube-san wrote:
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  • LorahaloLorahalo Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    I always find it funny when our DKs and rogues say how awesome their DPS is during Ony because they all end up doing ~10k during P2. If I aoe down those whelps (mage) I'd hit even higher.

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  • EndEnd Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    I pugged Ony10 a week or two after it came out and I ended up having to help with the big trash dudes even though I'm ranged. :x There was something wrong with the melee we had there... (Although, we had some pretty severe tanking issues too)

    Come to think of it, I haven't been to Ony10 since.

    maybe nothing else is real
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  • TheTishTheTish Registered User
    edited November 2009
    Lorahalo wrote: »
    I always find it funny when our DKs and rogues say how awesome their DPS is during Ony because they all end up doing ~10k during P2. If I aoe down those whelps (mage) I'd hit even higher.

    I don't know how those living bombs could have possibly gotten on all those whelps.
    *whistles innocently*

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    -- Gnome mage enchantress and inscriptionologist... er scribbler --
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  • NeylaNeyla Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    When we did the achievement Many Whelps! Handle It! in 10s, our casters got to do some aoe. I think they hit somewhere around the 12k mark....before they fell off the internet that is :P

    13142111181576.png
  • SeptusSeptus Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Lorahalo wrote: »
    I always find it funny when our DKs and rogues say how awesome their DPS is during Ony because they all end up doing ~10k during P2. If I aoe down those whelps (mage) I'd hit even higher.

    Higher than a good unholy DK, if they have the 4T9 bonus, would be very difficult as I understand it.

    rodq.jpg
  • TofystedethTofystedeth veni, veneri, vamoosi Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    I hit 9k last night on a joke whelp pull with just a consecrate on my holy pally.

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  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Septus wrote: »
    Lorahalo wrote: »
    I always find it funny when our DKs and rogues say how awesome their DPS is during Ony because they all end up doing ~10k during P2. If I aoe down those whelps (mage) I'd hit even higher.

    Higher than a good unholy DK, if they have the 4T9 bonus, would be very difficult as I understand it.

    Unholy DKs are great sustained AOE because they don't have the mana issue while AOEing but no one can really compare to a mage.

    Tube-san wrote:
    I apologise for my rudeness desu.
  • SeptusSeptus Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    As with everything since my olden days of WoW, I get my info from Elitist Jerks(grain of salt firmly in hand). There seemed to be an opinion there that nothing currently could top unholy dps, which could be entirely due to 4T9.

    rodq.jpg
  • TofystedethTofystedeth veni, veneri, vamoosi Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Septus wrote: »
    As with everything since my olden days of WoW, I get my info from Elitist Jerks(grain of salt firmly in hand). There seemed to be an opinion there that nothing currently could top unholy dps, which could be entirely due to 4T9.

    Critting diseases are retardly OP for AoE. We all noticed when our unholy dk got his 4pc.

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  • rizriz Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Forar wrote:
    As long as the gear is being put to use by a member of the raid that contributes regularly and is a skilled member of the team, as long as the gear isn't being sharded it shouldn't really matter who gets what, aside from tanks.

    There is a point where this argument falls apart. I mean the "it's okay if I pass on every moderate upgrade because someone else wants it and I'm saving up for one BiS thing" argument. Sure, as long as stuff isn't getting sharded or going for off-spec, then it's getting used. But meanwhile your dude is sitting in gear that's a full tier outdated from everyone else because you really REALLY want that shiny sword more than ANYTHING else, and you're no longer contributing as much as you could be. Small upgrades do add up to match or surpass one big one.

    We had this one warrior back in vanilla who would only use swords. He had an OEB for, like, a year and a half. We never saw any of the good swords from BWL, and he refused to use any other weapon type. He finally dropped the OEB for a fucking Kalimdor's Revenge.

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  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Septus wrote: »
    As with everything since my olden days of WoW, I get my info from Elitist Jerks(grain of salt firmly in hand). There seemed to be an opinion there that nothing currently could top unholy dps, which could be entirely due to 4T9.

    Yogg 0 and heroic Anub numbers tend to agree. Unholy DPS is crazy these days. It isn't just mana, but that their AOE crits become MORE AOE.

    I was actually wondering about something, how exactly does the 4pt9 work in conjuction with Wandering Plague? Considering the sheer amount of DPS our DKs put out in our yogg 0 kill last week, obviously in a very powerful way, but I was just wondering, since as I understand it WP is basically a "fake crit" like the old pandemic, and 4pt9 lets their DOTs crit for real.


    Edit: Also, at risk of starting a raiding is easy/hard mode easy mode argument, Yogg 0 is still brutal with ilevel 245 and 258 gear, I'd say harder than heroic Anub'arak. I mean, Anub is tough, but just about every point in the fight you can see where a couple thousand raid DPS or a bit more tank mitigation would ease the burden, but Yogg 0, no amount of gear short of zerging him before the first beacon will change the fact that if you mess up HOLY FUCK TANK DAMGAGE. Even with perfect beacons and stacked cooldowns our tanks were barely healable in the last beacon.

  • ForarForar #432 Already prepping for Toronto Fan Expo!Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    riz wrote: »
    There is a point where this argument falls apart. I mean the "it's okay if I pass on every moderate upgrade because someone else wants it and I'm saving up for one BiS thing" argument. Sure, as long as stuff isn't getting sharded or going for off-spec, then it's getting used. But meanwhile your dude is sitting in gear that's a full tier outdated from everyone else because you really REALLY want that shiny sword more than ANYTHING else, and you're no longer contributing as much as you could be. Small upgrades do add up to match or surpass one big one.

    And unless the raid group has massive turnover within their class or role, eventually that person will get those upgrades for a pittance. We had people with 3-4+ full sets of T6 by the end of TBC, between main set, off set, potential tertiary set for the interested hybrids, and sometimes even some spent on a pvp set (not sure if anyone ever went for more than one pvp set). Saving for BIS for every item to the exclusion of all else can often be detrimental, to be sure, but it also merely requires that the players not be drooling fools about what upgrades are worth going for.

    That then depends on the loot system being used. Something like DKP or Loot Council wherein either the player can choose how heavily they wish to apply their earned clout for something, or can give those in charge a heads up that they'd at least like to be in contention for a given piece, even to the detriment (reasonably) of others can simply mean that they wait for the RNG to shower the item upon them (council or dkp total willing) and snag other upgrades based on min bid or most/all of the rest of the raid already having the requisite slots filled already.

    With a system as I recall yours, with a rather harsh Suicide Kings, the willingness to potentially risk being "top dog" for any upgrade but the best of the best would indeed be problematic, and explains your warrior's story, assuming that was the system in place at the time.
    We had this one warrior back in vanilla who would only use swords. He had an OEB for, like, a year and a half. We never saw any of the good swords from BWL, and he refused to use any other weapon type. He finally dropped the OEB for a fucking Kalimdor's Revenge.

    While I can appreciate the benefits of a given weapon type for a class (I was a sword rogue back in molten core before it became 'the thing to do' by TBC) and the RNG completely wrecking a person through that pursuit, that seems poorly advised to say the least, and I can only hope someone in the guild/raid crew took them aside and explained that they were underperforming based on their stubbornness.

  • SenshiSenshi Registered User
    edited November 2009
    Pretty sure mut rogues put out some beastly numbers on the whelps since they can spam FoK to their heart's content due to the energy regen from Focused Attacks pretty much making FoK free. If energy ever starts to look like it's going dry, just hit Cold Blood and FoK again.

    The more whelps, the more FoKs you'll be able to churn out. I've never been beaten on the whelps.

    >Signatures
    >2012
    ISHYGDDT
  • TheCrumblyCrackerTheCrumblyCracker Registered User
    edited November 2009
    To be fair, sword spec ruled back then.

  • projectmayhemprojectmayhem Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    You guys are making me want to go against everything I believe and try Unholy dps.

  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Well, remember that it's only dominant as an AOE spec. So it depends what you're doing. 25 man heroic anub and yogg 0 are both massive AOE fights, and are also the hardest two fights in the game right now. I think just about all other bosses, blood is still the choice DPS spec.

  • DharmaBumDharmaBum Registered User
    edited November 2009
    Hevach wrote: »
    Well, remember that it's only dominant as an AOE spec. So it depends what you're doing. 25 man heroic anub and yogg 0 are both massive AOE fights, and are also the hardest two fights in the game right now. I think just about all other bosses, blood is still the choice DPS spec.

    Also remember that you more or less NEED 4PT9 in order for Unholy to bust up some crazy numbers.

    It's also good to think pragmatically about it too. There is so much competition for 2H Weapons (especially 2H +STR Weapons) these days that going DW may net you more upgrades. Of course this all depends on your guild/raid make-up. But if you go DW Blood is more or less out of the question. I haven't seen a single DW Blood Spec, whereas Unholy DW works really well.

  • SeptusSeptus Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Senshi wrote: »
    Pretty sure mut rogues put out some beastly numbers on the whelps since they can spam FoK to their heart's content due to the energy regen from Focused Attacks pretty much making FoK free. If energy ever starts to look like it's going dry, just hit Cold Blood and FoK again.

    The more whelps, the more FoKs you'll be able to churn out. I've never been beaten on the whelps.

    Wait, uh, don't tell me they get 2 energy for each individual critjesuschrist. That makes me so sad for swipe on my feral druid.
    Hevach wrote: »
    Well, remember that it's only dominant as an AOE spec. So it depends what you're doing. 25 man heroic anub and yogg 0 are both massive AOE fights, and are also the hardest two fights in the game right now. I think just about all other bosses, blood is still the choice DPS spec.

    I'm pretty sure unholy is still awesome, if not truly dominant, as single target dps because of the 4 piece bonus. At least, I see them at or near the tops of the charts on worldoflogs for a ton of different fights.

    rodq.jpg
  • OatsOats Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Senshi wrote: »
    Pretty sure mut rogues put out some beastly numbers on the whelps since they can spam FoK to their heart's content due to the energy regen from Focused Attacks pretty much making FoK free. If energy ever starts to look like it's going dry, just hit Cold Blood and FoK again.

    The more whelps, the more FoKs you'll be able to churn out. I've never been beaten on the whelps.

    FOK crits don't give energy back. At least not when they're Cold Blooded.

    Now... when the instant poison crits or deadly ticks (and you have 2pc T8) on the other hand...

  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Yes, Focused Attacks does in fact give energy for each FoK crit. Our muti rogue often comes very close to a dirt nap on whelps for this very reason.

  • TofystedethTofystedeth veni, veneri, vamoosi Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    I love doing Ony on my mage, cause I still have my heirloom SP trinket. Kind of wish I had two actually.
    I can be really spendy with my mana, then when whelps come out, i blizzard them down and get like, 450 mana back per kill.

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  • Harlequin69Harlequin69 Registered User
    edited November 2009
    Hevach wrote: »
    Well, remember that it's only dominant as an AOE spec. So it depends what you're doing. 25 man heroic anub and yogg 0 are both massive AOE fights, and are also the hardest two fights in the game right now. I think just about all other bosses, blood is still the choice DPS spec.

    Don't forget Ony. We tried to do the "Many Whelps, Handle it" achievement last night in our 25 man. Our Unholy DK hit 40,000 dps. Then one of the tanks DC'ed along with 8 more people and he died. We still killed Ony and didn't get the achievment. :( But he had was in the top 5 for damage done.

  • rizriz Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Forar wrote: »
    And unless the raid group has massive turnover within their class or role, eventually that person will get those upgrades for a pittance.

    Sure, EVENTUALLY. In the meantime, while you're still struggling to down new bosses, that guy is potentially not pulling his weight.
    With a system as I recall yours, with a rather harsh Suicide Kings, the willingness to potentially risk being "top dog" for any upgrade but the best of the best would indeed be problematic, and explains your warrior's story, assuming that was the system in place at the time.

    We used a modified zero sum back then. I forget what made it "modified," but we got DKP for boss kills and people spent DKP for loot, based on a chart of what different items were worth.

    Organichu wrote:
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  • SenshiSenshi Registered User
    edited November 2009
    Oats wrote: »
    Senshi wrote: »
    Pretty sure mut rogues put out some beastly numbers on the whelps since they can spam FoK to their heart's content due to the energy regen from Focused Attacks pretty much making FoK free. If energy ever starts to look like it's going dry, just hit Cold Blood and FoK again.

    The more whelps, the more FoKs you'll be able to churn out. I've never been beaten on the whelps.

    FOK crits don't give energy back. At least not when they're Cold Blooded.

    Now... when the instant poison crits or deadly ticks (and you have 2pc T8) on the other hand...

    No, no. It does. Free FoKs!

    Also, if you're not tricksing a tank beforehand, you're stupid and deserve to die. What's more fun as Mut is that you can glyph TotT to give yourself even more leeway with it.

    god i love rogues

    >Signatures
    >2012
    ISHYGDDT
  • ForarForar #432 Already prepping for Toronto Fan Expo!Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    riz wrote: »
    Forar wrote: »
    And unless the raid group has massive turnover within their class or role, eventually that person will get those upgrades for a pittance.

    Sure, EVENTUALLY. In the meantime, while you're still struggling to down new bosses, that guy is potentially not pulling his weight.

    Well, my dkp/item history is lost to the mists of time, but even as someone who maintained the top DKP in his class (if not the guild, at times) and still managed to snag full T2 by the time we were focusing towards AQ40 and Naxx40, I didn't find having priorities to be an issue.

    The biggest place this can be seen, imo, is the physical dps classes. Hunters, Warriors, Rogues, Ret Paladisn (and kitties now, I guess?). Having full Tier X and crappy weapon can be a massive gimping of performance, whereas an awesome weapon and Tier X-1 armour, while still bad, isn't quite as rough, in my experience. The extra attack power gained, while notable, still isn't quite on par with going from a 77 dps mainhand to a 105 dps mainhand.

    Which isn't to say that casters don't get things from their awesome weapons, but even if the spell power / attack power gains are similar, I don't believe the mechanics of the game give the slots truly equal weighting, unless something has changed drastically since I've been gone.

    To be clear, I agree that it's dumb to pass on any and all upgrades in the face of maintaing top DKP/whatever for one single solitary item, unless it says "You win the world of warcraft" in big red text on it, but more sensibly, I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea to have priorities on what you wish to invest time/resources/clout on getting, as long as a player does recognize that such a waiting game should be tempered with committing reasonable resources to making reasonable gains in other slots.

    If tier pieces are going for 20 dkp, and you're hording 500 for THE BEST ONE HAND SWORD IN THE GAME, and those tier pieces drop to 10 and then 5dkp and you're still holding out on upgrades because "oh my god, another rogue might totally catch up to me!", that player, despite whatever skill they may have at their class and raiding in general, is being retarded.

    That's all I'm saying. Focusing hard on having an edge on getting a key piece isn't bad, as long as it's done intelligently. Examples of people who might've shown this level of focus or dedication to an extreme is unfortunate, but doesn't mean that having priorities is necessarily a bad thing. Just otherwise smart/good people with bad priorities.
    riz wrote: »
    We used a modified zero sum back then. I forget what made it "modified," but we got DKP for boss kills and people spent DKP for loot, based on a chart of what different items were worth.

    Ahh. I've heard of those, and while there are benefits (no "early buyers" issues with essentially overspending; you've never seen D: from a Raider until the item they paid 300 dkp for goes for min bid the next week on the second drop, because only two people had any interest in it) and everyone pays the same amount for the same gear, but for the most part an auction system worked best for us over those 4 years. Sure, you got bent over the table on the first drops of big ticket items, but things rapidly became far more manageable the longer things went on. It develops a sort of natural ebb/flow.

  • JustinSane07JustinSane07 __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2009
    Ony Whelps huh?

    We had a DK do 73k dps last night to Ony Whelps.

    Then he died.

    It was pretty epic.

  • BikkstahBikkstah Registered User
    edited November 2009
    So apparently Warlocks can grab the twins essence and then Hellfire themselves to 80 or 90 stacks of Powering Up before the fight starts, soak an orb after the tank has threat and then open up with Empowering Whichever.

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