Anyone else notice quite a huge difference in terms of raiding nowadays? I mean, I've been playing since open beta and nothing has really been puggable up to WOTLK. I mean, I have a feeling I'm going to see "LFM 25 Icecrown Citadel pst stats/achievement" Which is sort of discouraging in comparison to something like Sunwell Plateau
Before the end of TBC I was seeing pugs of all of the raids except Sunwell. I remember seeing pugs for MC, Ony, AQ20, and ZG in classic.
Blizzard specifically stated that they wanted to avoid the Sunwell situation (and, well, Naxx in classic) for the average raid in WoTLK hence the "easier" normal modes, however they've also promised that the heroic modes in Icecrown will be enough to keep the progression minded guilds happy.
I think ToC and it's pugability has made people forget about Ulduar a little bit though. A lot of Ulduar is quite puggable, but I guarantee you 99% of the pugs that are clearing normal ToC couldn't kill Mimiron, or especially Yogg.
Obviously normal mode ICC is not going to be tuned to be impossible to PuG, but if it's like Ulduar the deeper bosses will still be a good challenge.
also, in a few blue posts they have said that ICC will be pretty hard, even on normal settings. Although, I guess that still remains to be seen.
edit: although I really like the hard/normal setting logistics for ICC. being able to switch it on and off for different bosses is how it should be.
Whatever the difficulty, I'm pretty sure their comments lead me to believe that anyone and everyone who wants to raid normal ICC, can.
Which is awesome.
oh yeah, I am all for having the raid being accessible to anyone who wants to do it, I had just seen a blue post saying that it would be a bit more difficult than the other wotlk raids, and more comparable to sunwell.
With the difficulty thing, it is like Ulduar, but I appreciate not having to flip some in-game switch to make it hard. Just toggling it on and off is much more user friendly and intuitive.
I'm highly doubting any new content will be anywhere near Sunwell difficulty on regular mode. They'd lose way too many accounts if they suddenly made progression too hard for casual players.
Even the Sunwell trash makes the regular trial look like a joke.
I'm highly doubting any new content will be anywhere near Sunwell difficulty on regular mode. They'd lose way too many accounts if they suddenly made progression too hard for casual players.
Of course it wouldn't be, considering how difficult that would make hard mode ICC.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Anyone else notice quite a huge difference in terms of raiding nowadays? I mean, I've been playing since open beta and nothing has really been puggable up to WOTLK. I mean, I have a feeling I'm going to see "LFM 25 Icecrown Citadel pst stats/achievement" Which is sort of discouraging in comparison to something like Sunwell Plateau
Hard modes for better/extra gear, titles and bragging rights are fine by me, but the core basic instance should be doable by a baseline crew that doesn't require weeks of practice and cohesion.
It should of course require more than "i rollded my faec on keeys and i getz epicz", but the ability to at least see an entire expansion's worth of content shouldn't be beyond half or more of the playerbase.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
Anyone else notice quite a huge difference in terms of raiding nowadays? I mean, I've been playing since open beta and nothing has really been puggable up to WOTLK. I mean, I have a feeling I'm going to see "LFM 25 Icecrown Citadel pst stats/achievement" Which is sort of discouraging in comparison to something like Sunwell Plateau
It's really discouraging that a group of people who have done some content before on separate occasions can get together and do that content?
forty on
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
That's all I'm saying. Focusing hard on having an edge on getting a key piece isn't bad, as long as it's done intelligently. Examples of people who might've shown this level of focus or dedication to an extreme is unfortunate, but doesn't mean that having priorities is necessarily a bad thing. Just otherwise smart/good people with bad priorities.
Yeah of course I agree that having priorities is fine, but when someone lets their priority get unreasonable is detrimental to the raid.
Anyway, more relevant to posts on this page: One thing that I think is going to bother me about ICC is, it has been nice being able to gear up alts without having to get people to commit to hours of a raid to do it. "Anyone for a quick ToC10?" after a regular raid or at 8 p.m. on an off night usually garners a decent response. ToC10 is easy and fast as long as your group isn't pants-on-head. On the other hand, it was a huge struggle to get any gear for alts from Ulduar, and I can only assume it was because of the sheer SIZE of Ulduar, combined with trash clears, that made it more of a commitment than people were willing to make at random times. ToC10 is like running two heroics for badges, but I imagine we'll have Ulduar-like problems with ICC.
But at least there's only ONE instance ID for it, instead of having to run normal 10, heroic 10, normal 25, and heroic 25 in the same week.
Well it's still a raid. With triumph emblems going heroic, anybody can gear an alt in full 232s with some 245 pieces and of course the conquest loot, etc. ICC is not going to be 'like 2 heroics' like ToC is, but it shouldn't be. It's the capstone raid of the expansion. It's going to have trash that people have to actually think on, and bosses that will require some coordination I'm sure.
I think people are trying to go too far to the extreme of 'normal modes are easy' and assume that normal modes are meant to not take any effort, which still isn't the case on the harder bosses in Ulduar and hopefully will be the case in ICC.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
until they create the pvp equiv of raiding, im not playing wow
tell us what the pvp equivalent of raiding is then.
Battlegrounds. Though they did kind of marginalize them as a progression path with arenas, rated battlegrounds would bring it back I think.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited November 2009
This is not a thread to discuss pvp. This is still an on topic thread.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Drops from ToGC 10/25 aren't enough to justify the effort for me. They look the same as the non-heroic drops, just with that glowing green "Heroic" stamp-of-approval and slightly higher stats that you would only notice upon inspection. They really should make it more distinct is what I'm saying.
Drops from ToGC 10/25 aren't enough to justify the effort for me. They look the same as the non-heroic drops, just with that glowing green "Heroic" stamp-of-approval and slightly higher stats that you would only notice upon inspection. They really should make it more distinct is what I'm saying.
I don't know... the differences seem good enough to me.
The stats aren't just a little bit higher, the difference is pretty substantial accross a set, especially factoring in all the extra sockets they tacked on to most of it.
Sure, I look just like a scrubby alt warlock who got carred through normal TOC for a few weeks, but anybody who cares is either going to see the guild name, titles, and glory mounts and assume the gear matches, and leave it at that, or they'll click on me and look at their little gearscore mod, in which case sheer itemlevels win the day.
The extra sockets really makes tank HP skyrocket. Going from the 10man normal boots off of Beasts to Heroic boots off of beats netted me a 33% increase in the stamina on the item.
33%!
That's huge!
Every socket increases my base stamina by 30. Thanks to awesome bear scaling, every stamina is actually 1.22 stamina. (Imp MOTW + HOTW = 12% buff. Kings = 10% buff. Bears = awesome)
For DPS the extra sockets are amazing, my Heroic Gormok's Band gives me 132 strength. The difference that 13 ilvl gives for weapon damage and spellpower on weapons, as well, is tremendous for any DPS.
The stats aren't just a little bit higher, the difference is pretty substantial across a set, especially factoring in all the extra sockets they tacked on to most of it.
This. I'm a *huge* fan of sockets. No idea what ICC will bring when it goes live, and the ability to regem to pick up a few % haste or crit is amazing.
You can put me in the group of people who is glad they made the hard mode loot just higher ilvl versions of the same items. The increase in stats/especially sockets on the heroic versions makes a huge difference.
I will admit I hope ICC heroic mode bosses do have some unique loot, just because it's fun to have a drop that you can only get that way. Maybe a mix of the same items with higher ilvl and some unique stuff.
I'm beginning to hate sockets because epic gems are starting to cost me gold since i'm out of Conquest emblems.
I tend to use the honor from wintergrasp quests to buy gems. It nets 1-3 gems per week depending on how well your side does.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited November 2009
I also like the way that heroic mode loot is just a straight and flat upgrade. It removes the issue you had previously where things that dropped in normal mode or rather, easier fights, were better than heroic stuff because of stat allocation.
The extra sockets really makes tank HP skyrocket. Going from the 10man normal boots off of Beasts to Heroic boots off of beats netted me a 33% increase in the stamina on the item.
33%!
That's huge!
Every socket increases my base stamina by 30. Thanks to awesome bear scaling, every stamina is actually 1.22 stamina. (Imp MOTW + HOTW = 12% buff. Kings = 10% buff. Bears = awesome)
So which bosses will be eligible for the weekly raid quest? Any? A select subset? Mostly tending toward earlier/easier bosses in raids?
I'm gonna rage so bad if the first week ends up being "kill the fifth boss in ICC" on my server and then other people are getting Jaraxxus or something.
It looked to me like it was generally the '2nd boss' of a wing. Some examples I saw were XT-002, Patchwerk, and Jaraxxus. So I figure it'll stick to something like that so the ICC ones would be early/easy bosses too.
Shit I hope my server's first raid weekly is in ICC. That way we can spend all our raid time that week in there. I'm sure the first handful of bosses are going to be a joke anyway for most people.
The stats aren't just a little bit higher, the difference is pretty substantial across a set, especially factoring in all the extra sockets they tacked on to most of it.
This. I'm a *huge* fan of sockets. No idea what ICC will bring when it goes live, and the ability to regem to pick up a few % haste or crit is amazing.
I'm hoping they go the direction they did in Sunwell and have lots of red sockets on DPS gear and blue sockets on tank gear, so you can gem your primary stat straight in every slot and hardly lose most of your socket bonuses.
The stats aren't just a little bit higher, the difference is pretty substantial across a set, especially factoring in all the extra sockets they tacked on to most of it.
This. I'm a *huge* fan of sockets. No idea what ICC will bring when it goes live, and the ability to regem to pick up a few % haste or crit is amazing.
I'm hoping they go the direction they did in Sunwell and have lots of red sockets on DPS gear and blue sockets on tank gear, so you can gem your primary stat straight in every slot and hardly lose most of your socket bonuses.
I'm fine with this, but I'm fine with the way they did the ToC gear too which is just to have attractive set bonuses. I have several tank pieces with red socket and a 12 stam bonus. So yeah, I'll take 10 agi/27 stam over 30 stam. I hate when a piece of gear has a 6 dodge rating set bonus or something. Nobody is going to give up 15 stam for that.
So which bosses will be eligible for the weekly raid quest? Any? A select subset? Mostly tending toward earlier/easier bosses in raids?
I'm gonna rage so bad if the first week ends up being "kill the fifth boss in ICC" on my server and then other people are getting Jaraxxus or something.
Here's the list: Lord Marrowgar, Lord Jaraxxus, XT-002 Deconstructor, Ignis, Razorscale, Flame Leviathan, Malygos, Patchwerk, Instructor Razuvious, Noth the Plaguebringer, Anub'Rekhan, Sartharion. So it's either the first or second boss of each raid.
Shit I hope my server's first raid weekly is in ICC. That way we can spend all our raid time that week in there. I'm sure the first handful of bosses are going to be a joke anyway for most people.
Sadly my guild is not that competent that I'd bank on them getting much of ICC down in the first week.
Additionally, the first week one of a new raid tends to be notoriously bad in the bugs, lag, disconnects, crashing, etc. department. If there's ever one week where I wouldn't mind skipping out on the newest raid zone, it's the very first week.
Edit: Thanks, Opty! Of that list, the ones that will probably be the most problematic to get done (via PUG or thrown-together-from-scraps guild raid, not A team) will be Marrowgar (just since it will have the harshest gear requirements and presumably will be tuned harder) and Malygos (because people just seem to love to be bad at this encounter).
The stats aren't just a little bit higher, the difference is pretty substantial across a set, especially factoring in all the extra sockets they tacked on to most of it.
This. I'm a *huge* fan of sockets. No idea what ICC will bring when it goes live, and the ability to regem to pick up a few % haste or crit is amazing.
I'm hoping they go the direction they did in Sunwell and have lots of red sockets on DPS gear and blue sockets on tank gear, so you can gem your primary stat straight in every slot and hardly lose most of your socket bonuses.
I'm fine with this, but I'm fine with the way they did the ToC gear too which is just to have attractive set bonuses. I have several tank pieces with red socket and a 12 stam bonus. So yeah, I'll take 10 agi/27 stam over 30 stam. I hate when a piece of gear has a 6 dodge rating set bonus or something. Nobody is going to give up 15 stam for that.
As a bear, I find most of my gear options being loaded with yellow sockets, oh boy~
Posts
Whatever the difficulty, I'm pretty sure their comments lead me to believe that anyone and everyone who wants to raid normal ICC, can.
Which is awesome.
Before the end of TBC I was seeing pugs of all of the raids except Sunwell. I remember seeing pugs for MC, Ony, AQ20, and ZG in classic.
Blizzard specifically stated that they wanted to avoid the Sunwell situation (and, well, Naxx in classic) for the average raid in WoTLK hence the "easier" normal modes, however they've also promised that the heroic modes in Icecrown will be enough to keep the progression minded guilds happy.
Obviously normal mode ICC is not going to be tuned to be impossible to PuG, but if it's like Ulduar the deeper bosses will still be a good challenge.
oh yeah, I am all for having the raid being accessible to anyone who wants to do it, I had just seen a blue post saying that it would be a bit more difficult than the other wotlk raids, and more comparable to sunwell.
With the difficulty thing, it is like Ulduar, but I appreciate not having to flip some in-game switch to make it hard. Just toggling it on and off is much more user friendly and intuitive.
Even the Sunwell trash makes the regular trial look like a joke.
Of course it wouldn't be, considering how difficult that would make hard mode ICC.
normal modes should be puggable
This.
Hard modes for better/extra gear, titles and bragging rights are fine by me, but the core basic instance should be doable by a baseline crew that doesn't require weeks of practice and cohesion.
It should of course require more than "i rollded my faec on keeys and i getz epicz", but the ability to at least see an entire expansion's worth of content shouldn't be beyond half or more of the playerbase.
This is not at all relevant to this thread.
If it's not glass chewing, it's not raiding, m i rite?!
Yeah of course I agree that having priorities is fine, but when someone lets their priority get unreasonable is detrimental to the raid.
Anyway, more relevant to posts on this page: One thing that I think is going to bother me about ICC is, it has been nice being able to gear up alts without having to get people to commit to hours of a raid to do it. "Anyone for a quick ToC10?" after a regular raid or at 8 p.m. on an off night usually garners a decent response. ToC10 is easy and fast as long as your group isn't pants-on-head. On the other hand, it was a huge struggle to get any gear for alts from Ulduar, and I can only assume it was because of the sheer SIZE of Ulduar, combined with trash clears, that made it more of a commitment than people were willing to make at random times. ToC10 is like running two heroics for badges, but I imagine we'll have Ulduar-like problems with ICC.
But at least there's only ONE instance ID for it, instead of having to run normal 10, heroic 10, normal 25, and heroic 25 in the same week.
I think people are trying to go too far to the extreme of 'normal modes are easy' and assume that normal modes are meant to not take any effort, which still isn't the case on the harder bosses in Ulduar and hopefully will be the case in ICC.
tell us what the pvp equivalent of raiding is then.
olol
Battlegrounds. Though they did kind of marginalize them as a progression path with arenas, rated battlegrounds would bring it back I think.
I don't know... the differences seem good enough to me.
Going from Legguards of Feverish Dedication to the Heroic Legguards of Feverish Dedication would net me, as a JC Tank +44 Stamina plus about 0.25% Avoidance, 100 Armor and 1 Expertise.
That's a sizable upgrade, IMO. It's even more noticeable if you were to compare both versions of the Justicebringer 2H.
P.S: Glyph, I saw that you mentioned being from Destromath in that locked thread. What's your character? :P
Sure, I look just like a scrubby alt warlock who got carred through normal TOC for a few weeks, but anybody who cares is either going to see the guild name, titles, and glory mounts and assume the gear matches, and leave it at that, or they'll click on me and look at their little gearscore mod, in which case sheer itemlevels win the day.
33%!
That's huge!
Every socket increases my base stamina by 30. Thanks to awesome bear scaling, every stamina is actually 1.22 stamina. (Imp MOTW + HOTW = 12% buff. Kings = 10% buff. Bears = awesome)
This. I'm a *huge* fan of sockets. No idea what ICC will bring when it goes live, and the ability to regem to pick up a few % haste or crit is amazing.
I will admit I hope ICC heroic mode bosses do have some unique loot, just because it's fun to have a drop that you can only get that way. Maybe a mix of the same items with higher ilvl and some unique stuff.
I tend to use the honor from wintergrasp quests to buy gems. It nets 1-3 gems per week depending on how well your side does.
Bears rule.
I'm gonna rage so bad if the first week ends up being "kill the fifth boss in ICC" on my server and then other people are getting Jaraxxus or something.
I'm hoping they go the direction they did in Sunwell and have lots of red sockets on DPS gear and blue sockets on tank gear, so you can gem your primary stat straight in every slot and hardly lose most of your socket bonuses.
I'm fine with this, but I'm fine with the way they did the ToC gear too which is just to have attractive set bonuses. I have several tank pieces with red socket and a 12 stam bonus. So yeah, I'll take 10 agi/27 stam over 30 stam. I hate when a piece of gear has a 6 dodge rating set bonus or something. Nobody is going to give up 15 stam for that.
Additionally, the first week one of a new raid tends to be notoriously bad in the bugs, lag, disconnects, crashing, etc. department. If there's ever one week where I wouldn't mind skipping out on the newest raid zone, it's the very first week.
Edit: Thanks, Opty! Of that list, the ones that will probably be the most problematic to get done (via PUG or thrown-together-from-scraps guild raid, not A team) will be Marrowgar (just since it will have the harshest gear requirements and presumably will be tuned harder) and Malygos (because people just seem to love to be bad at this encounter).
As a bear, I find most of my gear options being loaded with yellow sockets, oh boy~