I still have a hard time getting groups for random 5m heroics on my druid when I advertise I'm a tank. So many people don't believe druids can tank still it's stupid.
My druid is at 40k hp self buffed (so motw), and I seem to do pretty well. At least I think I do. I have 5k dps though seems to be the max I can keep agro off of on a class that doesn't have or isn't using threat reductions. Once I'm in a group with people doing more than 5k dps single target, they almost always rip agro off me.
Do warriors in mostly badge/heroic gear have that same problem? Or do I just need to l2p?
EWom on
Whether they find a life there or not, I think Jupiter should be called an enemy planet.
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SenshiBALLING OUT OF CONTROLWavefrontRegistered Userregular
edited November 2009
I do about 5k on my rogue and shaman, and I rarely pull aggro. Well, it happens from time to time if I manage to get a really really quick Lava Burst off, but that's pretty rare and usually my fault anyway. Oh, and naturally my rogue is usually dead last on the threat meters because i l2p'd rogue ages ago
and continue to play it well even now
Back to the matter at hand, though--I'm running shit with equally-geared people, so we're talking a smattering of hardmode gear, etc. That said, people in gear similar to yours can't really do 5k dps, so they're probably just way the fuck ahead of you, gearwise. Any classes in particular that pull aggro off you?
paladins have - cleanses, hand of freedom, hand of sacrifice (this alone is very powerful...as an offtank, when not actively tanking you can throw it on the main tank. the damage you absorb is not remotely dangerous to you, and will give him a free shield wall), hand of salvation for threat-sensitive fights (admittedly not too many of these exist), blessing of protection, divine shield, judgements of light and wisdom, both of which are near-mandatory raid buffs, and an extremely long duration stun, though long cooldown too. they also have Sacred Shield which isn't to be underestimated
You list several things only a Prot Warrior brings, or only a Prot Warrior does (Spell reflect, Conc blow, Shockwave, mobility, technically shield bash/sunders/disarm/intervene although other warriors can do it with some readjusting of normal business), but you go on to list almost everything any paladin can do and does bring without adjusting normal business. The only thing in the entire list that you need a Protection spec'd Palaidn for is Blessing of Sanctuary (which I don't think you even listed).
I didn't mean to imply Paladins have less overall utility while tanking. Things like cleansing, hand of freedom, and all those things are very nice. What I should have said is Warriors have a more diverse tanking toolset.
I would use Faction Champions as an example. If I was still a Paladin main there is no question I would dual spec Ret for the fight. I would just feel like a gimp staying Prot and doing anything on that fight. On my Warrior, I stay prot for that fight. I have two stuns on fairly short CDs, short CD spell interrupt, spell reflect, can shield slam HoTs off the kill targets, can intervene healers, can charge/intercept stun casters. This is the utility I'm talking about.
I still have a hard time getting groups for random 5m heroics on my druid when I advertise I'm a tank. So many people don't believe druids can tank still it's stupid.
My druid is at 40k hp self buffed (so motw), and I seem to do pretty well.
I do about 5k on my rogue and shaman, and I rarely pull aggro. Well, it happens from time to time if I manage to get a really really quick Lava Burst off, but that's pretty rare and usually my fault anyway. Oh, and naturally my rogue is usually dead last on the threat meters because i l2p'd rogue ages ago
and continue to play it well even now
Back to the matter at hand, though--I'm running shit with equally-geared people, so we're talking a smattering of hardmode gear, etc. That said, people in gear similar to yours can't really do 5k dps, so they're probably just way the fuck ahead of you, gearwise. Any classes in particular that pull aggro off you?
The two worst are elemental shamans and warlocks. Usually if they are over 5k single target DPS they rip shit right off of me.
And yeah, I know they outgear me by far. My best tanking gear comes from hToC 5man, and I know they are in raid gear, or at least partially raid gear. I was wondering if other tanks have the same problem I do, or if its just my rotation not being good enough, or what.
EWom on
Whether they find a life there or not, I think Jupiter should be called an enemy planet.
Destro Warlocks are a pain in the ass at the beginning of any fight. Their threat is so front loaded that if they don't give you a few seconds, they very well could double the threat of a Shield Slam + HS combo.
I also solved my issue of not HSing enought by making 6, 7, 8 Shield Slam, Revenge, HS and then just run my fingers on them repeatedly.
JustinSane07 on
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SenshiBALLING OUT OF CONTROLWavefrontRegistered Userregular
edited November 2009
Do you Execute a lot as a Fury warrior? Worth picking up the glyph or talent? Would Glyph of Cleaving serve me better?
Arms is still the PvP spec of choice, right? I want to level my warrior through AV and such, and basically turn it into a full time PvP toon. Any tips on how to spec it, etc. etc? She's only 61 right now, so I guess that means I'd also be coming in at the bottom end of that bracket, but whatever. Heirloom gear good for pvping at low levels?
Do you Execute a lot as a Fury warrior? Worth picking up the glyph or talent? Would Glyph of Cleaving serve me better?
I don't know the definitive answer to this, but I believe that once you have a decent weapon Heroic Strike is better damage per rage even in execute range, and the only time you would use execute as fury is if BT/WW were on CD, Free slam is not procced, you've already queued HS every swing, and you still manage to have extra rage.
For Arms PvP you're going to want to get piercing howl (11 point fury talent) then dump the rest in Arms. Of course at 61 you can't get both Bladestorm and PH, so I'd go 51 Arms then start filling in the 11 points in Fury.
Do I also want to pick up the talent that regenerates a portion of life when I'm crit? Or should I grab something else because it's not enough life to justify it?
Also I have teh heirloom sword already, what about the other heirloom gear? Grab it or nah?
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SenshiBALLING OUT OF CONTROLWavefrontRegistered Userregular
Arms is still the PvP spec of choice, right? I want to level my warrior through AV and such, and basically turn it into a full time PvP toon. Any tips on how to spec it, etc. etc? She's only 61 right now, so I guess that means I'd also be coming in at the bottom end of that bracket, but whatever. Heirloom gear good for pvping at low levels?
Do you Execute a lot as a Fury warrior? Worth picking up the glyph or talent? Would Glyph of Cleaving serve me better?
I don't know the definitive answer to this, but I believe that once you have a decent weapon Heroic Strike is better damage per rage even in execute range, and the only time you would use execute as fury is if BT/WW were on CD, Free slam is not procced, you've already queued HS every swing, and you still manage to have extra rage.
It really depends on what your priorities are, but as Fury myself, I do find myself using execute a fair bit. The raid I run with is a 10s-only made up of people from various 25s-only raiding guilds, all of whom are friends, and we have basically what you'd expect for a 25 man, as far as our melee buffs go, since we're primarily melee. So, at a fairly high gear level, you will end up executing a fair bit, and the glyph really, really helps it not hit like a girl. The talent is, in my eyes, more expensive. Glyph of cleave would let me look better on meters, but for most boss fights, I don't see it helping a lot. When there are enough adds that hitting an extra target would be nice, there are enough targets that infinite-target AoE would just be way better. Your mileage may vary.
PierceNeck, blood craze is worth it in PvP, but not really for leveling, since mob crit is so low.
I'm now feelimg the need for Tri-Specs like Druids have been clamoring for. My guild wants to me to go Fury for DPSing Anub-H attempts (I have Justicebringer and Lothar's Edge just sitting in my bank), they want me to be Unhittable for Tanking Anub-H attempts and I want to have the Warrior Solo spec so I can do level 60/70 content on my own.
Yeah, as soon as I heard about dual specs I thought "Man, I wish they were going to have 3." Of course, that was when my main was a Paladin and I had gear for tanking/dps/healing. I'm a Warrior now, so I just have my tank/dps specs, and my wife is a healer so I can use her if I want to do old content.
Honestly, I get the whole argument about how dual spec was just implemented so people could pve/pvp, tank/heal, heal/dps to make life a little easier, but I fail to see what would be wrong with just making it so if you were willing to pay another 1000 gold, you get to add another spec. Hell, it wouldn't even need to be capped at 3. It's purely a convenience and time saver so people don't have to respec, reglyph, set up hotbars, etc.
Just another one of those things that seem like common sense, that they will probably implement around patch 4.2
What they could do is make it so you only have access to two specs at a time on like a 24 hour cooldown. That way on off-raid days I can be like Solo and Tank spec but on Raid nights I could be a combination of Fury/Arms/Tank.
Honestly, I get the whole argument about how dual spec was just implemented so people could pve/pvp, tank/heal, heal/dps to make life a little easier, but I fail to see what would be wrong with just making it so if you were willing to pay another 1000 gold, you get to add another spec. Hell, it wouldn't even need to be capped at 3. It's purely a convenience and time saver so people don't have to respec, reglyph, set up hotbars, etc.
Just another one of those things that seem like common sense, that they will probably implement around patch 4.2
Yeah, it's almost undoubtedly going to happen eventually. The question is for how much time do players have to suffer and complain to get the ball rolling? Or maybe it comes down to how many people list it as a reason for unsubscribing.
forty on
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
edited November 2009
If you were to just add infinate numbers of "dual specs" then you might as well cut off the middle man and make respecs free, without a trainer.
Just make it so you click a button on talents, and clear em all.
Cause isnt that what you are effectively doing? elimitinating choice and giving you the ability to do everything at any time, on a whim?
No? Because there's far more to a spec than just your talents anymore? Have you been playing this game for the past year?
forty on
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
edited November 2009
If you count glyphs, yeah I guess. But then you kill the glyph market because at least now people still respec, and still reglyph.
I think Blizzard kind of wants having a spec to still have a meaning, and not just allowing a character to be all things at any given time. Although, that point was kind of killed when the 50 gold max respec cost became so trivial it doesn't accomplish its goal. so respeccing is just a minor annoyance, not the major inconvenience it is really supposed to be.
Keep in mind dual spec only came to be because people were just doing it anyway, so it wasnt stopping them from being a single role so they gave in and gave them a small convenience.
Keep in mind dual spec only came to be because people were just doing it anyway, so it wasnt stopping them from being a single role so they gave in and gave them a small convenience.
Uh, yeah? And something like tri spec would also just be "a small convenience."
Tri spec wouldn't "kill the glyph market," by the way.
forty on
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SenshiBALLING OUT OF CONTROLWavefrontRegistered Userregular
edited November 2009
People are always leveling alts, changing glyphs due to updates, etc. In fact, you'd probably be able to make a little more money off glyphs right when trispecs are released as everyone'd be rushing to get glyphs for their brand new specs.
People still fiddle with their specs. It's what you do.
Yeah, I remember people saying the same thing about glyphs when dual spec was going to be added. And people even said pretty much the same thing about glyphs in general, before dual spec was even on the radar.
"I would never get inscription instead of enchanting because people will always need new enchants as they get new gear, but they'll just buy their glyphs once and that will be it. Inscription will never be worthwhile."
forty on
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
edited November 2009
I was mostly talking about the multitude spec idea, as someone stated it should continue to as many as you want.
Either way, if it happens, its basically blizzard giving up. It took this long to get dual spec because they gave up. I wouldnt get your hopes up for it to happen again, at least not untill the game is dieing horribly. It just sounds like one of those "wahh wahh" type of needs without regard to the reality of why it doesnt happen.
Well the reality is Blizzard was always wrong when they acted like what spec you are matters. They felt that the gold cost for respecs made people not respec willy nilly, but that just wasn't true. Back in TBC it wasn't uncommon for me and others to spend upwards of 500g per week in respecs, just for convenience.
This game is an MMO version of Diablo. It always has been, and will continue to be. Blizzard over time realizes that it's pointless to pretend it isn't and they eventually just make things as convenient as they should have been to begin with. Adding a 3rd or 4th spec to the 'dual spec' system would just mean the good players who know how to tank/dps/heal/pvp well on the same character and have gear to do so wouldn't have to waste their time reorganizing hotbars and glyphs, as they do right now. It'll happen.
No, you couldn't. I didn't mean to imply you could respec in Diablo, only that it is a mass loot gathering festival, which Blizzard wants to be fun for everybody to play, and they continue to make WoW more and more convenient to play. It was probably a bad analogy. It made sense in my head initially. =P
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
edited November 2009
Well untill they change the completely silly cost of 50G to respec (as in pointless), then yeah, its a joke that they think it matters. However, thats what they think anyway, thats why I don't think it will happen. Untill WoW is at the point where its just like they are throwing bones everywhere anyway.
I miss the days where your spec made you an individual though. Not just because there wasnt a dual spec, but because there were actual choices that mattered. Sure the trees were unbalanced and most classes were lucky to have two viable trees, but shit like mixed specs were fun. Now the trees are designed that you need to go deep or gtfo.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Well untill they change the completely silly cost of 50G to respec (as in pointless), then yeah, its a joke that they think it matters. However, thats what they think anyway, thats why I don't think it will happen. Untill WoW is at the point where its just like they are throwing bones everywhere anyway.
I miss the days where your spec made you an individual though. Not just because there wasnt a dual spec, but because there were actual choices that mattered. Sure the trees were unbalanced and most classes were lucky to have two viable trees, but shit like mixed specs were fun. Now the trees are designed that you need to go deep or gtfo.
shit like mixed specs was fun because no one knew any better yet.
a mixed spec was just as poor then as it is now
Well untill they change the completely silly cost of 50G to respec (as in pointless), then yeah, its a joke that they think it matters. However, thats what they think anyway, thats why I don't think it will happen. Untill WoW is at the point where its just like they are throwing bones everywhere anyway.
I miss the days where your spec made you an individual though. Not just because there wasnt a dual spec, but because there were actual choices that mattered. Sure the trees were unbalanced and most classes were lucky to have two viable trees, but shit like mixed specs were fun. Now the trees are designed that you need to go deep or gtfo.
shit like mixed specs was fun because no one knew any better yet.
a mixed spec was just as poor then as it is now
we just know better now
This, exactly. It just so happens the knowledge of what the 'right' spec is for each spec is common knowledge now, and classes are all built by Blizzard assuming people will go into other trees to get whatever synergy they can.
I do kinda agree with Blizzard's stance on how they want to make specs matter somewhat. Or more importantly, they still want there to be some manner of choice in the matter. If people have 3 specs they can be at any one time, then that basically means that everybody is more or less every spec (barring wacky mixed specs or something). Which means they may as well just remove all 3 trees for how much it would matter then, and simply put in one global tree or something.
The Wolfman on
"The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
edited November 2009
well, first of all I'd imagine the second purchase would cost at least 2k gold, and not everyone can afford that. second, I see plenty of warriors/paladin/dks in lfg who can't tank. so either they can't afford it or just don't want to. either way, everyone won't be everything.
and even if everyone WAS everything, you'd still need to be good at it and gear up for it, which would be my preferred way of choosing what to be useful at.
and, it wouldn't just be one spec with focus on each tree. there are prot/prot people out there, for tanking/pvp. and I imagine other classes have similar issues... now, not that you can't solo most if not all content in a non -ideal solo spec, but if you have 2k gold I don't see why that would hurt the game at all.
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My druid is at 40k hp self buffed (so motw), and I seem to do pretty well. At least I think I do. I have 5k dps though seems to be the max I can keep agro off of on a class that doesn't have or isn't using threat reductions. Once I'm in a group with people doing more than 5k dps single target, they almost always rip agro off me.
Do warriors in mostly badge/heroic gear have that same problem? Or do I just need to l2p?
and continue to play it well even now
Back to the matter at hand, though--I'm running shit with equally-geared people, so we're talking a smattering of hardmode gear, etc. That said, people in gear similar to yours can't really do 5k dps, so they're probably just way the fuck ahead of you, gearwise. Any classes in particular that pull aggro off you?
You list several things only a Prot Warrior brings, or only a Prot Warrior does (Spell reflect, Conc blow, Shockwave, mobility, technically shield bash/sunders/disarm/intervene although other warriors can do it with some readjusting of normal business), but you go on to list almost everything any paladin can do and does bring without adjusting normal business. The only thing in the entire list that you need a Protection spec'd Palaidn for is Blessing of Sanctuary (which I don't think you even listed).
I would use Faction Champions as an example. If I was still a Paladin main there is no question I would dual spec Ret for the fight. I would just feel like a gimp staying Prot and doing anything on that fight. On my Warrior, I stay prot for that fight. I have two stuns on fairly short CDs, short CD spell interrupt, spell reflect, can shield slam HoTs off the kill targets, can intervene healers, can charge/intercept stun casters. This is the utility I'm talking about.
The two worst are elemental shamans and warlocks. Usually if they are over 5k single target DPS they rip shit right off of me.
And yeah, I know they outgear me by far. My best tanking gear comes from hToC 5man, and I know they are in raid gear, or at least partially raid gear. I was wondering if other tanks have the same problem I do, or if its just my rotation not being good enough, or what.
I also solved my issue of not HSing enought by making 6, 7, 8 Shield Slam, Revenge, HS and then just run my fingers on them repeatedly.
I prefer Prot for battlegrounds/WG though.
I don't know the definitive answer to this, but I believe that once you have a decent weapon Heroic Strike is better damage per rage even in execute range, and the only time you would use execute as fury is if BT/WW were on CD, Free slam is not procced, you've already queued HS every swing, and you still manage to have extra rage.
If you want to do arms and have the heirloom sword you will be better geared than half of your competition.
Also I have teh heirloom sword already, what about the other heirloom gear? Grab it or nah?
oh god yes
It really depends on what your priorities are, but as Fury myself, I do find myself using execute a fair bit. The raid I run with is a 10s-only made up of people from various 25s-only raiding guilds, all of whom are friends, and we have basically what you'd expect for a 25 man, as far as our melee buffs go, since we're primarily melee. So, at a fairly high gear level, you will end up executing a fair bit, and the glyph really, really helps it not hit like a girl. The talent is, in my eyes, more expensive. Glyph of cleave would let me look better on meters, but for most boss fights, I don't see it helping a lot. When there are enough adds that hitting an extra target would be nice, there are enough targets that infinite-target AoE would just be way better. Your mileage may vary.
PierceNeck, blood craze is worth it in PvP, but not really for leveling, since mob crit is so low.
Tanking Tips
If you want feel free to add to the OP.
Just another one of those things that seem like common sense, that they will probably implement around patch 4.2
Just make it so you click a button on talents, and clear em all.
Cause isnt that what you are effectively doing? elimitinating choice and giving you the ability to do everything at any time, on a whim?
I think Blizzard kind of wants having a spec to still have a meaning, and not just allowing a character to be all things at any given time. Although, that point was kind of killed when the 50 gold max respec cost became so trivial it doesn't accomplish its goal. so respeccing is just a minor annoyance, not the major inconvenience it is really supposed to be.
Keep in mind dual spec only came to be because people were just doing it anyway, so it wasnt stopping them from being a single role so they gave in and gave them a small convenience.
Tri spec wouldn't "kill the glyph market," by the way.
People still fiddle with their specs. It's what you do.
"I would never get inscription instead of enchanting because people will always need new enchants as they get new gear, but they'll just buy their glyphs once and that will be it. Inscription will never be worthwhile."
Either way, if it happens, its basically blizzard giving up. It took this long to get dual spec because they gave up. I wouldnt get your hopes up for it to happen again, at least not untill the game is dieing horribly. It just sounds like one of those "wahh wahh" type of needs without regard to the reality of why it doesnt happen.
This game is an MMO version of Diablo. It always has been, and will continue to be. Blizzard over time realizes that it's pointless to pretend it isn't and they eventually just make things as convenient as they should have been to begin with. Adding a 3rd or 4th spec to the 'dual spec' system would just mean the good players who know how to tank/dps/heal/pvp well on the same character and have gear to do so wouldn't have to waste their time reorganizing hotbars and glyphs, as they do right now. It'll happen.
I miss the days where your spec made you an individual though. Not just because there wasnt a dual spec, but because there were actual choices that mattered. Sure the trees were unbalanced and most classes were lucky to have two viable trees, but shit like mixed specs were fun. Now the trees are designed that you need to go deep or gtfo.
shit like mixed specs was fun because no one knew any better yet.
a mixed spec was just as poor then as it is now
we just know better now
This, exactly. It just so happens the knowledge of what the 'right' spec is for each spec is common knowledge now, and classes are all built by Blizzard assuming people will go into other trees to get whatever synergy they can.
and even if everyone WAS everything, you'd still need to be good at it and gear up for it, which would be my preferred way of choosing what to be useful at.
and, it wouldn't just be one spec with focus on each tree. there are prot/prot people out there, for tanking/pvp. and I imagine other classes have similar issues... now, not that you can't solo most if not all content in a non -ideal solo spec, but if you have 2k gold I don't see why that would hurt the game at all.