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Dress for success! or don't?

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Posts

  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Corvus wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    IT folks spend a lot of time splayed on the ground and covered in dirt, so I can't really find a fault in them dressing like plumbers.

    If they're the help desk IT people in an office, sure and everyone understands that. There are still some standards, and some people in those roles don't seem to grasp it sometimes, probably because no one has ever taught them about it. Unfortunately, it results in the stereo type in offices that "IT worker = slob"

    Many people still have an obnoxious assumption that computer people are troglodytes, so they have gotten over people who live up to the stereotype. They'll even be suspicious if they act or dress too normal in some cases.

    Really you could probably confuse people by walking into the average comic book store in a nice blazer, for similar reasons.

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  • Irond WillIrond Will Dragonmaster Cambridge. MASuper Moderator, Moderator mod
    edited November 2009
    Bama wrote: »
    Profession has come up a few times here recently, so would some of you mind sharing what it is you do for a living? I'm interested to see if a pattern forms.

    I'm a software developer (and for those of you just tuning in, I think dress codes are ridiculous)

    --

    I think it's interesting that using clothing to "express oneself" is being referred to in a derogatory way. Particularly because the people saying that are the ones who read so much expression in the way people dress.

    I'm a radar engineer at a government contractor. I dress up more for work than most all the other engineers because that is my preference, but really only find the most unprofessional forms of dress objectionable. The engineers I work with range from reasonably normal with regard to understanding and adhering to basic social norms to definitely aspergers with a strong struggle to understand social norms.

    The better-socialized engineers tend to dress okay - mostly what would be considered office casual. I don't prefer polo shirts and tan pants, but mostly because it strikes me as bland. It isn't really objectionable.

    I guess for the Aspergers cases, having to pay attention to what humans wear to work is just one too many topics that take away from focusing on building a phased array or a model train town or HAM radio or pokemans or whatever their thing is. They tend to dress what I would charitably call "badly."

    There are also a subset that seem to understand how they should dress in terms of appropriateness for work, but refuse to, since I guess they are too valuable to pay attention to the same basic standards that everyone else is expected to? Because they just couldn't focus on their job if they had to wear something less comfy than a "funny" tee shirt and jeans? Because they want to assert their "culture"?

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  • Captain VashCaptain Vash Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    I love comic books and blazers.

    both are appealing, one might say I spend money on these recreationally.

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  • Irond WillIrond Will Dragonmaster Cambridge. MASuper Moderator, Moderator mod
    edited November 2009
    yalborap wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Yes.

    And this goes for everything you do.

    Clothing is a form of communication, even if all that you communicate is that you don't care about clothing and first impressions and such.

    Right. Which is okay, if a bit frustrating at times.

    Then you get people like Will, who seem to consider the idea almost unholy.

    It's not unholy. I wear tee shirts and hoodies and jeans to the bar or to the park or a picnic. I wear shorts or sweats to the gym.

    But if I'm taking my lady out to a date at a nice restaurant I wear a damn suit and tie. If I'm going to work I wear work-appropriate clothes. When I had jury duty, I wore a suit and tie.

    And if people want to subvert basic dress codes or make a point of dressing inappropriately then - congratulations! They have dressed inappropriately and communicated that they refuse to follow basic social guidelines! Success!

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  • LoveIsUnityLoveIsUnity Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Irond Will wrote: »
    yalborap wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Yes.

    And this goes for everything you do.

    Clothing is a form of communication, even if all that you communicate is that you don't care about clothing and first impressions and such.

    Right. Which is okay, if a bit frustrating at times.

    Then you get people like Will, who seem to consider the idea almost unholy.

    It's not unholy. I wear tee shirts and hoodies and jeans to the bar or to the park or a picnic. I wear shorts or sweats to the gym.

    But if I'm taking my lady out to a date at a nice restaurant I wear a damn suit and tie. If I'm going to work I wear work-appropriate clothes. When I had jury duty, I wore a suit and tie.

    And if people want to subvert basic dress codes or make a point of dressing inappropriately then - congratulations! They have dressed inappropriately and communicated that they refuse to follow basic social guidelines! Success!

    I did this too, and I was the only person to do so. It was weird.

    I don't have much cause to wear business casual clothes, and I find that it looks sillier to wear a polo with khakis than it does to wear jeans and a t-shirt or slacks and a nice button down. This is almost entirely my own aesthetics getting in the way, and I think dressing up for most jobs to be silly, but I'd much rather put on a suit than a polo. Fortunately, I have a job where I can get away with a lot as long as I perform well.

    sig.gif
  • NewblarNewblar Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Corvus wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    IT folks spend a lot of time splayed on the ground and covered in dirt, so I can't really find a fault in them dressing like plumbers.

    If they're the help desk IT people in an office, sure and everyone understands that. There are still some standards, and some people in those roles don't seem to grasp it sometimes, probably because no one has ever taught them about it. Unfortunately, it results in the stereo type in offices that "IT worker = slob"

    Many people still have an obnoxious assumption that computer people are troglodytes, so they have gotten over people who live up to the stereotype. They'll even be suspicious if they act or dress too normal in some cases.

    Really you could probably confuse people by walking into the average comic book store in a nice blazer, for similar reasons.

    I can confirm this. I walked into a GW store after an interview because for some weird reason I like to read white dwarf once every year or so even though I don't play any of the games.

    I got stared at alot by the patrons and one of the workers even asked me why I was wearing a suit. I mean it was the first thing he asked me before even saying hello.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • japanjapan Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Robman wrote: »
    Let's establish the timeline that led up to the chimp comment.

    The poster I responded to was on the internet.

    The person clicked on a thread about dressing up.

    The person complained repeatedly about being ignorant of how this shit works

    The person made the conscious decision to complain in an internet thread rather then spending two minutes on Google to find one of the many detailed, helpful guides on the internet on how formal clothing works, various common styles, and how to tell them apart, and how to wear them.

    Given that the comment was directed at me, you seem to have been fundamentally misunderstanding my point.

    I think the association you're making between decorum and dress is silly. I have never in my life felt that someone is, in some way, being rude because of what they happen to be wearing. I honestly have difficulty wrapping my head around the mindset because what other people are wearing is not of any particular interest to me.

    You're interested in clothes, that's fine. You believe (for your own reasons) that they are an important part of personal interaction. I take issue with how important you seem to feel it is, and think you, and others, are grossly overexaggerating the extent to which people pay attention to dress, and draw conclusions based on it.

    I don't think I'm the only person that feels this way, either, given that many people associate dress codes with snobbery.

    EDIT: I do admit I have "proclaimed my ignorance" to some extent, mostly in reaction to people reeling off obscure rules of dress as if they were in some way self-evident or universally known.

  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited November 2009
    japan wrote: »
    I think the association you're making between decorum and dress is silly. I have never in my life felt that someone is, in some way, being rude because of what they happen to be wearing. I honestly have difficulty wrapping my head around the mindset because what other people are wearing is not of any particular interest to me.

    The thing is, you have stated that you -avoid- places where paying attention to how you dress is expected.

    Have you ever done anything in your life where a person is expected to apply X amount of effort and you did and someone did not? Say, a group project in school?

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  • poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    japan wrote: »
    I think the association you're making between decorum and dress is silly. I have never in my life felt that someone is, in some way, being rude because of what they happen to be wearing. I honestly have difficulty wrapping my head around the mindset because what other people are wearing is not of any particular interest to me.

    The thing is, you have stated that you -avoid- places where paying attention to how you dress is expected.

    Have you ever done anything in your life where a person is expected to apply X amount of effort and you did and someone did not? Say, a group project in school?

    This has nothing to do with his point.

    It's not about effort. There are kids outside Meiji Shrine in Tokyo who spend hours of their time dressing outlandishly.

    I wear jackets and ties to work every day. It takes no more effort than any other clothes. Perhaps less, since I don't get to choose.

    I figure I could take a bear.
  • Irond WillIrond Will Dragonmaster Cambridge. MASuper Moderator, Moderator mod
    edited November 2009
    japan wrote: »
    Robman wrote: »
    Let's establish the timeline that led up to the chimp comment.

    The poster I responded to was on the internet.

    The person clicked on a thread about dressing up.

    The person complained repeatedly about being ignorant of how this shit works

    The person made the conscious decision to complain in an internet thread rather then spending two minutes on Google to find one of the many detailed, helpful guides on the internet on how formal clothing works, various common styles, and how to tell them apart, and how to wear them.

    Given that the comment was directed at me, you seem to have been fundamentally misunderstanding my point.

    I think the association you're making between decorum and dress is silly. I have never in my life felt that someone is, in some way, being rude because of what they happen to be wearing. I honestly have difficulty wrapping my head around the mindset because what other people are wearing is not of any particular interest to me.

    You're interested in clothes, that's fine. You believe (for your own reasons) that they are an important part of personal interaction. I take issue with how important you seem to feel it is, and think you, and others, are grossly overexaggerating the extent to which people pay attention to dress, and draw conclusions based on it.

    I don't think I'm the only person that feels this way, either, given that many people associate dress codes with snobbery.

    EDIT: I do admit I have "proclaimed my ignorance" to some extent, mostly in reaction to people reeling off obscure rules of dress as if they were in some way self-evident or universally known.

    Well, you know, surprise surprise but we are on a forum largely populated with college kids, tech workers, alternative lifestyle people and geeks. These are not exactly the groups most associated with sartorial seriousness.

    Now first of all, there is a lot of breathless exaggeration that even the most exacting of "us" are holding "you" to. Allowing for regional differences, it's appropriate to wear a suit & tie to court. It's appropriate to wear a jacket or semi-formal dress to certain kinds of upscale restaurants. It's appropriate in many work environments to wear business casual to professional attire to work.

    I am sure that you are more comfortable in tevas and a tee shirt. I am sure other people are more comfortable in their bermuda shorts or hawaiian shirts or gym clothes or whatever. I am sure that XKCD tees and ren faire outfits are a better expression of who you are as an individual than whatever is generally expected in most venues. It doesn't matter. Social standards are specifically limits on individual self-expression - be it behavior or dress. You might dislike this or chafe at this or rage against this, but it's still there. You don't have to brush your teeth or refrain from farting on the train or shower or wear appropriate clothes, but failing to do so will generally meet with disapproval.

    And yes I understand that there are all sorts of fun subcultures with corresponding uniforms. But it's a mistake to pretend as though there is an equivalency between your subculture or club or preference and general social expectations. And it's a mistake to believe that there are never negative repercussions to flaunting basic rules. The president of the US doesn't wear a starfleet uniform when conducting official business and the country would be shocked if he did. If you want to wear your LARP get-up to a job interview, you shouldn't count on getting the job. Wearing "beach bum" clothes to court will likely work against you, and wearing cargo shorts and a tee shirt to restaurants with a certain ambience and dress code (implicit or explicit) will generally meet with disapproval.

    What I am arguing is that you will encounter situations in your life in which it will behoove you to meet basic social expectations in terms of dress. If you have never paid attention to how you dress and seriously believe that this has never closed doors to you, then you are mistaken.

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  • poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Irond Will wrote: »
    japan wrote: »
    Robman wrote: »
    Let's establish the timeline that led up to the chimp comment.

    The poster I responded to was on the internet.

    The person clicked on a thread about dressing up.

    The person complained repeatedly about being ignorant of how this shit works

    The person made the conscious decision to complain in an internet thread rather then spending two minutes on Google to find one of the many detailed, helpful guides on the internet on how formal clothing works, various common styles, and how to tell them apart, and how to wear them.

    Given that the comment was directed at me, you seem to have been fundamentally misunderstanding my point.

    I think the association you're making between decorum and dress is silly. I have never in my life felt that someone is, in some way, being rude because of what they happen to be wearing. I honestly have difficulty wrapping my head around the mindset because what other people are wearing is not of any particular interest to me.

    You're interested in clothes, that's fine. You believe (for your own reasons) that they are an important part of personal interaction. I take issue with how important you seem to feel it is, and think you, and others, are grossly overexaggerating the extent to which people pay attention to dress, and draw conclusions based on it.

    I don't think I'm the only person that feels this way, either, given that many people associate dress codes with snobbery.

    EDIT: I do admit I have "proclaimed my ignorance" to some extent, mostly in reaction to people reeling off obscure rules of dress as if they were in some way self-evident or universally known.

    Well, you know, surprise surprise but we are on a forum largely populated with college kids, tech workers, alternative lifestyle people and geeks. These are not exactly the groups most associated with sartorial seriousness.

    Now first of all, there is a lot of breathless exaggeration that even the most exacting of "us" are holding "you" to. Allowing for regional differences, it's appropriate to wear a suit & tie to court. It's appropriate to wear a jacket or semi-formal dress to certain kinds of upscale restaurants. It's appropriate in many work environments to wear business casual to professional attire to work.

    I am sure that you are more comfortable in tevas and a tee shirt. I am sure other people are more comfortable in their bermuda shorts or hawaiian shirts or gym clothes or whatever. I am sure that XKCD tees and ren faire outfits are a better expression of who you are as an individual than whatever is generally expected in most venues.

    And yes I understand that there are all sorts of fun subcultures with corresponding uniforms. But it's a mistake to pretend as though there is an equivalency between your subculture or club or preference and general social expectations. And it's a mistake to believe that there are never negative repercussions to flaunting basic rules. The president of the US doesn't wear a starfleet uniform when conducting official business and the country would be shocked if he did. If you want to wear your LARP get-up to a job interview, you shouldn't count on getting the job. Wearing "beach bum" clothes to court will likely work against you, and wearing cargo shorts and a tee shirt to restaurants with a certain ambience and dress code (implicit or explicit) will generally meet with disapproval.

    What I am arguing is that you will encounter situations in your life in which it will behoove you to meet basic social expectations in terms of dress. If you have never paid attention to how you dress and seriously believe that this has never closed doors to you, then you are mistaken.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy

    Edit: I'm sorry, I should have been more precise:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is-ought_problem

    I figure I could take a bear.
  • AvicusAvicus Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    wow this thread is so full of people going I want to wear what I want to work. How would you react if someone rocked up to work wearing their pajamas or the clothes they wear to the gym? Would you look down on this because it is lower than the standard you set yourself of jeans and a t-shirt? Well guess what, thats exactly how people will react to you wearing what you want when everyone else is wearing business casual.

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  • Irond WillIrond Will Dragonmaster Cambridge. MASuper Moderator, Moderator mod
    edited November 2009
    poshniallo wrote: »
    I'm not claiming that there is anything ethically or morally "right" about hewing to basic social expectations. I am not arguing the fundamental virtue of conformity. I'm saying that flaunting basic social expectations - or hewing to "alternative" social expectations in inappropriate venues - will meet with general disapproval and often put one at a disadvantage.

    An I know you're a firm believer in cultural equivalency and the ongoing struggle for cultural dominance or whatever. But at the same time you are forced to wear the hated professional clothes to work in spite of your raging, and this suggests to me that there is a certain primacy of certain social standards in our culture - and one that we would be wise to understand and acknowledge.

    edit: to wit, I am not saying that things are this way and therefore they ought to be this way. I am saying that things are this way and pretending as though they are not - or fighting against them at every turn - is generally personally deleterious.

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  • poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Irond Will wrote: »
    poshniallo wrote: »
    I'm not claiming that there is anything ethically or morally "right" about hewing to basic social expectations. I am not arguing the fundamental virtue of conformity. I'm saying that flaunting basic social expectations - or hewing to "alternative" social expectations in inappropriate venues - will meet with general disapproval and often put one at a disadvantage.

    An I know you're a firm believer in cultural equivalency and the ongoing struggle for cultural dominance or whatever. But at the same time you are forced to wear the hated professional clothes to work in spite of your raging, and this suggests to me that there is a certain primacy of certain social standards in our culture - and one that we would be wise to understand and acknowledge.

    I'm not raging, though that is a clever rhetorical tactic to avoid the content of my posts.

    Also, obviously since I wear formal clothes I am aware of the power of conservative, archaic mindsets.

    I do now feel the need to have an is-ought sig.

    I figure I could take a bear.
  • Irond WillIrond Will Dragonmaster Cambridge. MASuper Moderator, Moderator mod
    edited November 2009
    poshniallo wrote: »
    Irond Will wrote: »
    poshniallo wrote: »
    I'm not claiming that there is anything ethically or morally "right" about hewing to basic social expectations. I am not arguing the fundamental virtue of conformity. I'm saying that flaunting basic social expectations - or hewing to "alternative" social expectations in inappropriate venues - will meet with general disapproval and often put one at a disadvantage.

    An I know you're a firm believer in cultural equivalency and the ongoing struggle for cultural dominance or whatever. But at the same time you are forced to wear the hated professional clothes to work in spite of your raging, and this suggests to me that there is a certain primacy of certain social standards in our culture - and one that we would be wise to understand and acknowledge.

    I'm not raging, though that is a clever rhetorical tactic to avoid the content of my posts.

    Also, obviously since I wear formal clothes I am aware of the power of conservative, archaic mindsets.

    I do now feel the need to have an is-ought sig.

    I guess I don't get the point you are trying to make then, or maybe we are talking at cross-purposes? You refuse to dress to archaic conservative cultural standards except for sometimes? You feel that your beach-bum-former-punk culture should be treated with equal standing in the marketplace of social expectations? That conventional social standards aren't accepted by all subcultures?

    I don't really even know where you live or what kind of subcultures you are talking about. There are certainly places where dressing like you just got out of a Jimmy Buffet concert to an upscale restaurant is appropriate. But where I live it is not.

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  • BamaBama Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Avicus wrote: »
    How would you react if someone rocked up to work wearing their pajamas or the clothes they wear to the gym? Would you look down on this because it is lower than the standard you set yourself of jeans and a t-shirt?
    not a fucking bit

    "Despite all the bitching, if Diablo 3 sucks, I will eat my own cock. Counter-claim: If Diablo 3 does not suck, I will have a list of whiners who need to eat cocks." - Zen Vulgarity
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Doc wrote: »
    Are we just accepting that software development jobs are way outside the norm as far as what's expected of your attire, both at work and in interviews?
    My cynical take on why software developers are allowed to dress slovenly is because it allows the executives to basically stick them in the code-monkey ghetto in the company.

    My dad is a mechanical engineer and he used to dress like a lot of other engineers (which is to say, not very well). But he told me he noticed that the guys in the executive suite dressed a step up from that, so he decided to emulate them. His career took off pretty quickly after that and he found that he got more responsibility and quicker promotions than his peers who never came to the conclusion that certain roles require you to look and act a certain way.

    So, if you work for some hip young company where all the developers wear shorts and flip flops, you might want to consider whether you want to look like your co-workers at the bottom of the pyramid, or people in the corner offices (or at least those who don't work in cubes).

    Railing against the man in his navy blazer might be fun while sitting at the pub, but the man doesn't really care. You're only hurting yourself.

    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • BamaBama Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Well if nothing else this thread has really made me appreciate the company that I work for.

    I'm a slovenly dressed code monkey in a corner office, btw.

    "Despite all the bitching, if Diablo 3 sucks, I will eat my own cock. Counter-claim: If Diablo 3 does not suck, I will have a list of whiners who need to eat cocks." - Zen Vulgarity
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Irond Will wrote: »
    What I am arguing is that you will encounter situations in your life in which it will behoove you to meet basic social expectations in terms of dress. If you have never paid attention to how you dress and seriously believe that this has never closed doors to you, then you are mistaken.
    What I don't really get is the outrage people are expressing at this very basic fact of life. The basic social expectations of what to wear to a job interview, wedding, funeral or nice restaurant are easy to figure out (expecially with the interwebs) and don't really take much effort or money to meet. The worst that can happen for violating them is that you don't get a job or are denied entry to an event or establishment. For a reasonably intelligent and rational person, meeting these requirements is not more onerous than meeting the social requirements of showing up on time for appointments, brushing one's teeth and not being drunk at work.

    On the other hand, people on this thread probably participate in sub-cultures where failing to meet the expected clothing/behavior expectations can result in more drastic consequences, even including physical violence (try showing up at a punk bar in an expensive suit). Hell, wearing the wrong colors in certain neighborhood can get you killed. On the other hand, Failing to wear a tie to Prime Rib in DC is not likely to result in gunfire from the hostess. So, the idea that basic cultural norms are somehow oppressive is mostly bs.

    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • BamaBama Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Modern Man wrote: »
    the social requirements of showing up on time for appointments, brushing one's teeth and not being drunk at work.
    ...well two out of three ain't bad.


    *hic*

    "Despite all the bitching, if Diablo 3 sucks, I will eat my own cock. Counter-claim: If Diablo 3 does not suck, I will have a list of whiners who need to eat cocks." - Zen Vulgarity
  • poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Irond Will wrote: »
    What I am arguing is that you will encounter situations in your life in which it will behoove you to meet basic social expectations in terms of dress. If you have never paid attention to how you dress and seriously believe that this has never closed doors to you, then you are mistaken.
    What I don't really get is the outrage people are expressing at this very basic fact of life. The basic social expectations of what to wear to a job interview, wedding, funeral or nice restaurant are easy to figure out (expecially with the interwebs) and don't really take much effort or money to meet. The worst that can happen for violating them is that you don't get a job or are denied entry to an event or establishment. For a reasonably intelligent and rational person, meeting these requirements is not more onerous than meeting the social requirements of showing up on time for appointments, brushing one's teeth and not being drunk at work.

    On the other hand, people on this thread probably participate in sub-cultures where failing to meet the expected clothing/behavior expectations can result in more drastic consequences, even including physical violence (try showing up at a punk bar in an expensive suit). Hell, wearing the wrong colors in certain neighborhood can get you killed. On the other hand, Failing to wear a tie to Prime Rib in DC is not likely to result in gunfire from the hostess. So, the idea that basic cultural norms are somehow oppressive is mostly bs.

    I'm afraid you are just talking from your snobbery again. No matter how I've dressed, I've never had a problem with punks, greasers, bikers, hiphop fans, whatever. When I was young, the group I had to actively watch myself around were the 'casuals' - aggressively conformist young people wearing suits and designer clothes, dressing up to go out on a Saturday night and kick someone weird in.

    I've been a bouncer in a club, and the nights with the counter-culture kids were fine and dandy, but the suited types were hell.

    I figure I could take a bear.
  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Modern Man wrote: »
    For a reasonably intelligent and rational person, meeting these requirements is not more onerous than meeting the social requirements of showing up on time for appointments, brushing one's teeth and not being drunk at work.

    The heaviest burden we all have to bear...

    Sigh.

    "Well, look at this. Appears we got here just in the nick of time. What's that make us?"
    "Big Damn Heroes, Sir."
    "Ain't we just."
  • syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products regular
    edited November 2009
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    For a reasonably intelligent and rational person, meeting these requirements is not more onerous than meeting the social requirements of showing up on time for appointments, brushing one's teeth and not being drunk at work.

    The heaviest burden we all have to bear...

    Sigh.

    dunno what is up with your companies...

    we have a bar connected to our boardroom. And we use it (in the afternoons, after business is conducted).

  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    poshniallo wrote: »
    I'm afraid you are just talking from your snobbery again. No matter how I've dressed, I've never had a problem with punks, greasers, bikers, hiphop fans, whatever. When I was young, the group I had to actively watch myself around were the 'casuals' - aggressively conformist young people wearing suits and designer clothes, dressing up to go out on a Saturday night and kick someone weird in.
    Yes, I'm sure those young professionals in suits are the group you have to watch out for on a Saturday night. I mean, I can't walk through Georgetown at night without seeing a couple of Congressional staffers knifing someone.
    I've been a bouncer in a club, and the nights with the counter-culture kids were fine and dandy, but the suited types were hell.
    Yeah, sure.

    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • RobmanRobman Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Modern Man wrote: »
    poshniallo wrote: »
    I'm afraid you are just talking from your snobbery again. No matter how I've dressed, I've never had a problem with punks, greasers, bikers, hiphop fans, whatever. When I was young, the group I had to actively watch myself around were the 'casuals' - aggressively conformist young people wearing suits and designer clothes, dressing up to go out on a Saturday night and kick someone weird in.
    Yes, I'm sure those young professionals in suits are the group you have to watch out for on a Saturday night. I mean, I can't walk through Georgetown at night without seeing a couple of Congressional staffers knifing someone.

    That depends. Is an election going on?

  • BamaBama Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Spoiler:

    "Despite all the bitching, if Diablo 3 sucks, I will eat my own cock. Counter-claim: If Diablo 3 does not suck, I will have a list of whiners who need to eat cocks." - Zen Vulgarity
  • RobmanRobman Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Bama wrote: »
    Spoiler:

    The movie was more an exploration of a high powered yuppie who felt his life was so empty that he invented a fantasy life as a serial killer.

    The book was a lot more interesting, and a looot more vicious to the culture it was set in.

  • HounHoun Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Doc wrote: »
    Are we just accepting that software development jobs are way outside the norm as far as what's expected of your attire, both at work and in interviews?
    My cynical take on why software developers are allowed to dress slovenly is because it allows the executives to basically stick them in the code-monkey ghetto in the company.

    My dad is a mechanical engineer and he used to dress like a lot of other engineers (which is to say, not very well). But he told me he noticed that the guys in the executive suite dressed a step up from that, so he decided to emulate them. His career took off pretty quickly after that and he found that he got more responsibility and quicker promotions than his peers who never came to the conclusion that certain roles require you to look and act a certain way.

    So, if you work for some hip young company where all the developers wear shorts and flip flops, you might want to consider whether you want to look like your co-workers at the bottom of the pyramid, or people in the corner offices (or at least those who don't work in cubes).

    Railing against the man in his navy blazer might be fun while sitting at the pub, but the man doesn't really care. You're only hurting yourself.

    Don't get me wrong here, because I'm not trying to say your dad wasn't qualified for any promotions he received, but am I the only one who finds it slightly fucked up when appearance is valued so highly over ability?

    Steam: DigitalArcanist | PSN: DigitalArcanist | NNID: DigitalArcanist | Backloggery: Houn
  • RobmanRobman Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Houn wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Doc wrote: »
    Are we just accepting that software development jobs are way outside the norm as far as what's expected of your attire, both at work and in interviews?
    My cynical take on why software developers are allowed to dress slovenly is because it allows the executives to basically stick them in the code-monkey ghetto in the company.

    My dad is a mechanical engineer and he used to dress like a lot of other engineers (which is to say, not very well). But he told me he noticed that the guys in the executive suite dressed a step up from that, so he decided to emulate them. His career took off pretty quickly after that and he found that he got more responsibility and quicker promotions than his peers who never came to the conclusion that certain roles require you to look and act a certain way.

    So, if you work for some hip young company where all the developers wear shorts and flip flops, you might want to consider whether you want to look like your co-workers at the bottom of the pyramid, or people in the corner offices (or at least those who don't work in cubes).

    Railing against the man in his navy blazer might be fun while sitting at the pub, but the man doesn't really care. You're only hurting yourself.

    Don't get me wrong here, because I'm not trying to say your dad wasn't qualified for any promotions he received, but am I the only one who finds it slightly fucked up when appearance is valued so highly over ability?

    Let's assume that everything else was approximately equal. His dad was the only person to acknowledge and act on how important appearance is for first impressions, which play a huge role in negotiations. Negotiations are typically something that higher level engineers do.

  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Houn wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Doc wrote: »
    Are we just accepting that software development jobs are way outside the norm as far as what's expected of your attire, both at work and in interviews?
    My cynical take on why software developers are allowed to dress slovenly is because it allows the executives to basically stick them in the code-monkey ghetto in the company.

    My dad is a mechanical engineer and he used to dress like a lot of other engineers (which is to say, not very well). But he told me he noticed that the guys in the executive suite dressed a step up from that, so he decided to emulate them. His career took off pretty quickly after that and he found that he got more responsibility and quicker promotions than his peers who never came to the conclusion that certain roles require you to look and act a certain way.

    So, if you work for some hip young company where all the developers wear shorts and flip flops, you might want to consider whether you want to look like your co-workers at the bottom of the pyramid, or people in the corner offices (or at least those who don't work in cubes).

    Railing against the man in his navy blazer might be fun while sitting at the pub, but the man doesn't really care. You're only hurting yourself.

    Don't get me wrong here, because I'm not trying to say your dad wasn't qualified for any promotions he received, but am I the only one who finds it slightly fucked up when appearance is valued so highly over ability?
    That wasn't really the case, I don't think. It was more that in a field of similarly qualified candidates for a promotion, the person who dresses and looks like he fits the role of the higher-level position is more likely to get the job. Your qualifications get you in the door, but the more polished candidate has the advantage in securing the job.

    Think of it as affirmative action for the better-dressed.

    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • BamaBama Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Robman wrote: »
    Bama wrote: »
    Spoiler:

    The movie was more an exploration of a high powered yuppie who felt his life was so empty that he invented a fantasy life as a serial killer.

    The book was a lot more interesting, and a looot more vicious to the culture it was set in.
    I've only seen the movie, but it's just as believable that he did commit all those murders.

    One of the detail-oriented discussions of suits earlier in this thread reminded me of the business card thing from the movie.

    "Despite all the bitching, if Diablo 3 sucks, I will eat my own cock. Counter-claim: If Diablo 3 does not suck, I will have a list of whiners who need to eat cocks." - Zen Vulgarity
  • RobmanRobman Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Bama wrote: »
    Robman wrote: »
    Bama wrote: »
    Spoiler:

    The movie was more an exploration of a high powered yuppie who felt his life was so empty that he invented a fantasy life as a serial killer.

    The book was a lot more interesting, and a looot more vicious to the culture it was set in.
    I've only seen the movie, but it's just as believable that he did commit all those murders.

    One of the detail-oriented discussions of suits earlier in this thread reminded me of the business card thing from the movie.

    Yes, knowing the different suit cuts and when/how to wear them is exactly the same as Bateman nearly going into a psychopathic rage over someone's "perfect" business card. As for whether or not he actually murdered the people - re-watch the scene where he drags the body bag through the lobby.

  • BamaBama Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Robman wrote: »
    Yes, knowing the different suit cuts and when/how to wear them is exactly the same as Bateman nearly going into a psychopathic rage over someone's "perfect" business card.
    Yes, that's exactly what I said.

    "Despite all the bitching, if Diablo 3 sucks, I will eat my own cock. Counter-claim: If Diablo 3 does not suck, I will have a list of whiners who need to eat cocks." - Zen Vulgarity
  • RobmanRobman Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Bama wrote: »
    Robman wrote: »
    Yes, knowing the different suit cuts and when/how to wear them is exactly the same as Bateman nearly going into a psychopathic rage over someone's "perfect" business card.
    Yes, that's exactly what I said.

    Man you missed the entire point of that scene then. Everyone else was just having a little fun showing off their new business cards, but for Bateman - it was everything. Every scene in the movie is warped by his perception.

  • RitchmeisterRitchmeister Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Modern Man wrote: »
    poshniallo wrote: »
    I'm afraid you are just talking from your snobbery again. No matter how I've dressed, I've never had a problem with punks, greasers, bikers, hiphop fans, whatever. When I was young, the group I had to actively watch myself around were the 'casuals' - aggressively conformist young people wearing suits and designer clothes, dressing up to go out on a Saturday night and kick someone weird in.
    Yes, I'm sure those young professionals in suits are the group you have to watch out for on a Saturday night. I mean, I can't walk through Georgetown at night without seeing a couple of Congressional staffers knifing someone.
    I've been a bouncer in a club, and the nights with the counter-culture kids were fine and dandy, but the suited types were hell.
    Yeah, sure.

    Well I don't know about suits exactly, but the casuals in Britian are people that dress extremely well and go looking for fights, generally its seen at football, but I can definitely agree with Poshniallo that the smartly dressed people in designer clothes are normally the ones out looking for a fight.

  • ProtoProto Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Houn wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Doc wrote: »
    Are we just accepting that software development jobs are way outside the norm as far as what's expected of your attire, both at work and in interviews?
    My cynical take on why software developers are allowed to dress slovenly is because it allows the executives to basically stick them in the code-monkey ghetto in the company.

    My dad is a mechanical engineer and he used to dress like a lot of other engineers (which is to say, not very well). But he told me he noticed that the guys in the executive suite dressed a step up from that, so he decided to emulate them. His career took off pretty quickly after that and he found that he got more responsibility and quicker promotions than his peers who never came to the conclusion that certain roles require you to look and act a certain way.

    So, if you work for some hip young company where all the developers wear shorts and flip flops, you might want to consider whether you want to look like your co-workers at the bottom of the pyramid, or people in the corner offices (or at least those who don't work in cubes).

    Railing against the man in his navy blazer might be fun while sitting at the pub, but the man doesn't really care. You're only hurting yourself.

    Don't get me wrong here, because I'm not trying to say your dad wasn't qualified for any promotions he received, but am I the only one who finds it slightly fucked up when appearance is valued so highly over ability?

    Being able to understand that appearance matters in business and to then dress appropriately IS ability.

    and her knees up on the glove compartment
    took out her barrettes and her hair spilled out like rootbeer
  • The Fourth EstateThe Fourth Estate Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Modern Man wrote: »
    poshniallo wrote: »
    I'm afraid you are just talking from your snobbery again. No matter how I've dressed, I've never had a problem with punks, greasers, bikers, hiphop fans, whatever. When I was young, the group I had to actively watch myself around were the 'casuals' - aggressively conformist young people wearing suits and designer clothes, dressing up to go out on a Saturday night and kick someone weird in.
    Yes, I'm sure those young professionals in suits are the group you have to watch out for on a Saturday night. I mean, I can't walk through Georgetown at night without seeing a couple of Congressional staffers knifing someone.
    I've been a bouncer in a club, and the nights with the counter-culture kids were fine and dandy, but the suited types were hell.
    Yeah, sure.

    Well I don't know about suits exactly, but the casuals in Britian are people that dress extremely well and go looking for fights, generally its seen at football, but I can definitely agree with Poshniallo that the smartly dressed people in designer clothes are normally the ones out looking for a fight.

    Where in Britain do you live where football hooligans are well-dressed? Trackies are a far bigger problem.

    steam_sig.png
  • poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Modern Man wrote: »
    poshniallo wrote: »
    I'm afraid you are just talking from your snobbery again. No matter how I've dressed, I've never had a problem with punks, greasers, bikers, hiphop fans, whatever. When I was young, the group I had to actively watch myself around were the 'casuals' - aggressively conformist young people wearing suits and designer clothes, dressing up to go out on a Saturday night and kick someone weird in.
    Yes, I'm sure those young professionals in suits are the group you have to watch out for on a Saturday night. I mean, I can't walk through Georgetown at night without seeing a couple of Congressional staffers knifing someone.
    I've been a bouncer in a club, and the nights with the counter-culture kids were fine and dandy, but the suited types were hell.
    Yeah, sure.

    Hold on.

    First you and others say that suits etc have nothing to do with a particular social class, and that anyone who has the nous can just put buy one, put one on, and be sorted.

    Then you imply that the only people wearing suits are Congressional staffers.

    First you do the is-ought thing, now just a flat-out self-contradiction.

    And for an encore you ignore my direct experience in favour of your own prejudice against anyone looking 'slovenly'?

    (Also, that's a little circular in itself, using an adjective to modify a verb).

    Ugh.

    I figure I could take a bear.
  • RitchmeisterRitchmeister Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Modern Man wrote: »
    poshniallo wrote: »
    I'm afraid you are just talking from your snobbery again. No matter how I've dressed, I've never had a problem with punks, greasers, bikers, hiphop fans, whatever. When I was young, the group I had to actively watch myself around were the 'casuals' - aggressively conformist young people wearing suits and designer clothes, dressing up to go out on a Saturday night and kick someone weird in.
    Yes, I'm sure those young professionals in suits are the group you have to watch out for on a Saturday night. I mean, I can't walk through Georgetown at night without seeing a couple of Congressional staffers knifing someone.
    I've been a bouncer in a club, and the nights with the counter-culture kids were fine and dandy, but the suited types were hell.
    Yeah, sure.

    Well I don't know about suits exactly, but the casuals in Britian are people that dress extremely well and go looking for fights, generally its seen at football, but I can definitely agree with Poshniallo that the smartly dressed people in designer clothes are normally the ones out looking for a fight.

    Where in Britain do you live where football hooligans are well-dressed? Trackies are a far bigger problem.

    You literally couldn't be more wrong. Try searching for football casuals in google and see the clothes that are worn by these people, Stone Island, CP Company, Hackett and Prada are just some of the favourites, and none of these are cheap. Football hooligans do not wear trackies mate. Neds wear trackies.

  • jclastjclast Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    syndalis wrote: »
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    For a reasonably intelligent and rational person, meeting these requirements is not more onerous than meeting the social requirements of showing up on time for appointments, brushing one's teeth and not being drunk at work.

    The heaviest burden we all have to bear...

    Sigh.

    dunno what is up with your companies...

    we have a bar connected to our boardroom. And we use it (in the afternoons, after business is conducted).

    The rules are different for you fancy C-level employees, syndie. If you have a drink with a client it's because you're working - if I have a drink with a client it's because I'm an alcaholic.

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