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Dress for success! or don't?

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Posts

  • Irond WillIrond Will WARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!! Cambridge. MAModerator mod
    edited November 2009
    japan wrote: »
    psychotix wrote: »
    I've also found a good amount of "I hate dress codes" loosely translates into "I'm so special that I shouldn't have to suffer the rules you suckers do".

    As someone not interested in clothes, I prefer dress codes to all this implied social convention stuff.

    They make life easier., but unfortunately people are rarely that explicit.

    The rules are hazier than explicit dress codes, but IMO this allows for a lot more variation and opportunity. Social standards and expectations are a powerful thing and to simply ignore their existence or to dogmatically and intransigently oppose them is doing ones self a personal disservice.

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  • jclastjclast Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Irond Will wrote: »
    jclast wrote: »
    Right. And (keep in mind, I haven't been to a funeral in over 15 years) I don't figure I'd be pissed if I was attending a funeral and was dressed up for the ocassion while another guy was respectfully visiting a grave in his jeans and t-shirt.

    The last funeral I went to was my girlfriend's grandmother's, a few months ago. It was held at the family farm in central Maine, then we went over to the local graveyard to inter the remaining ashes.

    I knew Frankie's grandmother, but not well. I wore a charcoal suit and black tie and was the the most formally dressed, though a few of the older gentlemen had made an effort to dress up a little. Central Maine, I guess, is not big on being dressy, and presumably the family and neighbors present were familiar enough with each other that dressing in their step-above-work-clothes was appropriate.

    So I guess it was a little out of place, but I was all right with that - since my intention was to show respect to the memory of Frankie's grandmother and everyone at the event, even though I didn't know the woman well.

    I would have dressed up, too. My only point was that the standard is, in my opinion, different between "attending a funeral" and "going to the cemetary to mourn."

  • Irond WillIrond Will WARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!! Cambridge. MAModerator mod
    edited November 2009
    jclast wrote: »
    Of course, but if I'm not attending the funeral that you are - I'm just in the area (this actually happens with my wife - we stop at the cemetary her grandfather is buried at when we're in IL to visit her grandmother), and I'm not going to pull out my Sunday best for 10-20 minutes at the cemetary. And if there is a funeral going on, I'm going to do my best not to make their day worse, but if my dress offends them then I think they're focusing more on me more than they are the passing of their loved one.

    That said, when I visited Arlington I dressed up. I was going to be there and for a while and I took part in the laying of the wreath at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.

    I assume that cemetaries are populated with people doing their own thing, and unless someone is really dressed in some incredibly outre manner that attracts attention (or is acting in the same manner), it's not such a big deal.

    That said, it has happened more than a few times that I've been at a wedding where almost everyone has made at least an effort to dress up respectfully, and a few people just wear their tee shirts or sweats or whatever. It looks trashy and implies disrespect. If these people showed up in similar attire at the funeral of a loved one, I would be offended.

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  • CommunistCowCommunistCow Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    japan wrote: »
    psychotix wrote: »
    I've also found a good amount of "I hate dress codes" loosely translates into "I'm so special that I shouldn't have to suffer the rules you suckers do".

    As someone not interested in clothes, I prefer dress codes to all this implied social convention stuff.

    They make life easier., but unfortunately people are rarely that explicit.

    Even if it isn't explicit it is pretty easy to figure out.

    Formal: wedding, funeral, job interview, the opera, plays, musicals
    business: most often there will be a dress code or you can just see what everyone else wears in the office.
    Casual: hanging out with friends, some workplaces as long as everyone else dresses casually

    The situations where dress code is REALLY ambiguous no one will probably care.

    No, I am not really communist. Yes, it is weird that I use this name.
  • jclastjclast Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Irond Will wrote: »
    jclast wrote: »
    Of course, but if I'm not attending the funeral that you are - I'm just in the area (this actually happens with my wife - we stop at the cemetary her grandfather is buried at when we're in IL to visit her grandmother), and I'm not going to pull out my Sunday best for 10-20 minutes at the cemetary. And if there is a funeral going on, I'm going to do my best not to make their day worse, but if my dress offends them then I think they're focusing more on me more than they are the passing of their loved one.

    That said, when I visited Arlington I dressed up. I was going to be there and for a while and I took part in the laying of the wreath at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.

    I assume that cemetaries are populated with people doing their own thing, and unless someone is really dressed in some incredibly outre manner that attracts attention (or is acting in the same manner), it's not such a big deal.

    That said, it has happened more than a few times that I've been at a wedding where almost everyone has made at least an effort to dress up respectfully, and a few people just wear their tee shirts or sweats or whatever. It looks trashy and implies disrespect. If these people showed up in similar attire at the funeral of a loved one, I would be offended.

    I think we agree more than not. I would be offended, too is cousin Bill showed up to my wedding in shorts and a wife-beater. I would not, however, be offended if somebody else who happened to be at that resort was in shorts and a wife-beater as he's not part of my event.

    The funeral one is funky because we're both there to mourn - you're there as part of an event, I'm there beause I happen to be in town. Also we're mourning different people.

  • ronzoronzo Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Irond Will wrote: »
    Nostregar wrote: »
    Irond Will wrote: »
    I just cannot believe that it is a controversial statement that some clothes are appropriate or inappropriate for certain occasions or venues.

    I think the counterclaim is more that "what is appropriate is subjective", not that there is no "appropriate dress".

    And then the problem arising is that you're saying what is appropriate is not subjective and that not dressing in the way that "polite society" finds appropriate makes you a terrible person and, in one case, means you have a mental disorder.

    You and the people agreeing with you, Irond Will, are talking about how not dressing in the way that you find appropriate makes the "improperly dressed" person "in the wrong", and the people you're viewing as such are saying "why is your standard of dress more important than ours."

    I guess I would point out that I did not invent social standards regarding dressing onesself.

    I know that a lot of subculture people - whether they are goths or punk rockers or LARPers or furries or grunge kids or hipsters or beach-bums or nudists or people who dress up like vampires or whatever else - like to think of their subcultural and its trappings as parallel to and distinct from mainstream society. I know that they regard anyone who might think that their personal venue of self-expression or subculture as inappropriate for any occasion or venue that might arise as bigotry and snobbery.

    But in the end, there is a dominant culture. I didn't invent it. I don't necessarily even think it always makes a lot of sense. But there it is - and showing up to your job interview with white pancake makeup and a cape is 99 times out of 100 going to work against you.

    I pretty much agree with what Nos wrote, it's what I was tryin ham-fistedly to say on a previous page.
    Also, I think that what Nos was getting at wasnt that different sub-cultures can do what they feel is respectful while running against norms and get away with it, he was trying to say that while most people understand and respect the idea of dressing up for certain places and events, not everyone agrees exactly how far it goes. You and others in this thread have set yourselves up as being somehwat of a authority on this subject and if someone with a logical point or arguement run counter to your ideals, you blast them for cometely ignoring the idea of social norms for dress. To use the church example, most people believe in getting more dressed up for services, bu to what degree is debatable. If someone says that nice jeans and a collard shirt are good for church, but you think Sunday best is what should be worn always, they aren't ignoring social norms, they just adhere to a different interpratation of said norms

  • Irond WillIrond Will WARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!! Cambridge. MAModerator mod
    edited November 2009
    ronzo wrote: »
    I pretty much agree with what Nos wrote, it's what I was tryin ham-fistedly to say on a previous page.
    Also, I think that what Nos was getting at wasnt that different sub-cultures can do what they feel is respectful while running against norms and get away with it, he was trying to say that while most people understand and respect the idea of dressing up for certain places and events, not everyone agrees exactly how far it goes. You and others in this thread have set yourselves up as being somehwat of a authority on this subject and if someone with a logical point or arguement run counter to your ideals, you blast them for cometely ignoring the idea of social norms for dress. To use the church example, most people believe in getting more dressed up for services, bu to what degree is debatable. If someone says that nice jeans and a collard shirt are good for church, but you think Sunday best is what should be worn always, they aren't ignoring social norms, they just adhere to a different interpratation of said norms

    I'm not saying that all churches should demand people wear suits, or that jeans and a polo aren't sufficiently dressy for many occasions. Some churhces require no dress code at all - whenever I see footage from those megachuches from the southwest, it looks basically like that people of walmart website herded into a big tent. That is their standard and wearing whatever is appropraite to their venue is what is proprer.

    I'm saying that some church services or events or venues or occasions demand a suit and tie, and no matter what ones' preferred subculture or individual need for self-expression or preferred comfort level, bucking this expectation will result in being regarded negatively and possibly giving offense.

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  • ronzoronzo Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Irond Will wrote: »
    ronzo wrote: »
    I pretty much agree with what Nos wrote, it's what I was tryin ham-fistedly to say on a previous page.
    Also, I think that what Nos was getting at wasnt that different sub-cultures can do what they feel is respectful while running against norms and get away with it, he was trying to say that while most people understand and respect the idea of dressing up for certain places and events, not everyone agrees exactly how far it goes. You and others in this thread have set yourselves up as being somehwat of a authority on this subject and if someone with a logical point or arguement run counter to your ideals, you blast them for cometely ignoring the idea of social norms for dress. To use the church example, most people believe in getting more dressed up for services, bu to what degree is debatable. If someone says that nice jeans and a collard shirt are good for church, but you think Sunday best is what should be worn always, they aren't ignoring social norms, they just adhere to a different interpratation of said norms

    I'm not saying that all churches should demand people wear suits, or that jeans and a polo aren't sufficiently dressy for many occasions. Some churhces require no dress code at all - whenever I see footage from those megachuches from the southwest, it looks basically like that people of walmart website herded into a big tent. That is their standard and wearing whatever is appropraite to their venue is what is proprer.

    I'm saying that some church services or events or venues or occasions demand a suit and tie, and no matter what ones' preferred subculture or individual need for self-expression or preferred comfort level, bucking this expectation will result in being regarded negatively and possibly giving offense.

    And I agree, certain church events pretty much require the nicest stuff you have. However, when itried to suggest a few pages back that people might have different, equally valid based on life experience, ideas on how to comply with a social norm, I was called dense and repeatedly asked if I agreed that following social norms period was, well, normal. People can have different ways of following a social norm that might disagree with what you and others have basically said are "the rules" while still maintaining respect for other by the way they dress.

  • Irond WillIrond Will WARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!! Cambridge. MAModerator mod
    edited November 2009
    ronzo wrote: »
    And I agree, certain church events pretty much require the nicest stuff you have. However, when itried to suggest a few pages back that people might have different, equally valid based on life experience, ideas on how to comply with a social norm, I was called dense and repeatedly asked if I agreed that following social norms period was, well, normal. People can have different ways of following a social norm that might disagree with what you and others have basically said are "the rules" while still maintaining respect for other by the way they dress.

    The only real contention I have with this is that a number of people will use this kind of caveat as an excuse to simply disregard cultural standards altogether.

    One of my friends in college, for instance, was a devout muslim from Bangladesh. He carried around a mat and prayed seven times a day and wore traditional Bangladeshi muslim garb, turban and all. And when he had a formal occasion to go to, he wore his nicest traditional muslim Bangladeshi formal outfit. He had a different cultural basis for what he wore (like my example of Scots with their kilts or Texans with their suits with boots and bolo ties), but he still did his best to show respect to the society he was living in.

    This is far different from people who should know better but refuse.

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  • QuidQuid The Fifth Horseman Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Robman wrote: »
    I'm not really saying that you have Asperger's if you don't dress to match an event, but it's worth noting that similar behaviours are diagnostic of mental illness.
    People with Asperger's at least have an excuse for failing to recognize such social conventions. People who do so just because they want to are basically just being douches.
    And a fine job you're doing of demonstrating otherwise by insulting people who don't dress the way you want them to when visiting their dead family.

    Hint: You are not a unique snowflake. The universe does not center around you.

    PSN: allenquid
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