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[WoW] Rouges: OP not outdated; just lackluster. Sort of like Cat Druids

SenshiSenshi Registered User
edited February 2011 in MMO Extravaganza
YO WHAT UP B ROUGE THREAD REPRESENT

Rogues: We do Combo Points better than Druids

Basic Information
So what's a "Rouge" anyway?
Battle.Net wrote:
For rogues, the only code is the contract, and their honor is purchased in gold. Free from the constraints of a conscience, these mercenaries rely on brutal and efficient tactics. Lethal assassins and masters of stealth, they will approach their marks from behind, piercing a vital organ and vanishing into the shadows before the victim hits the ground.
As forced and horribly clichéd as that sounds, Blizzard's pretty right on the money. Rogues are the best (seriously, man) melee DPS class played exclusively by cool people with lots of friends and at least two girlfriends. If you play a rogue, you are popular, but have enough sense to keep it tasteful and discreet—which is good, because rogues like to remain unseen.

What flavors do your Rogues come in?
Rogues come in three flavors: Assassination, Combat, and Subtlety. Assassination rogues focus on high single target damage through strong poisons and absolutely devastating finishers. Combat rogues give up some of the high single target damage for more flexibility and survivability, while focusing on slightly bigger weapons. Subtlety rogues basically dick around in the shadows being assholes while they abuse bugged talents (okay, they don't do it anymore, but they totally used to). See the in-depth list of flavors below for more information.

IKEA shipped my Rogue and I don't understand these fucking instructions. What gives?
Battle.Net wrote:
Rogues often initiate combat with a surprise attack from the shadows, leading with vicious melee strikes. When in protracted battles, they utilize a successive combination of carefully chosen attacks to soften the enemy up for a killing blow. Rogues must take special care when selecting targets so that their combo attacks are not wasted, and they must be conscious of when to hide or flee if a battle turns against them.
So the idea is that rogues have several special abilities and traits that set them apart from other, inferior classes. The ability to Stealth and move around unseen is the primary, class-defining skill that rogues possess. For attacking, rogues utilize the Combo Point system, where you have two types of attacks: Combo Builders and Finishers. Combo Builders (such as Sinister Strike and Mutilate) will add one or several Combo Points to the target, whereas Finishers will consume said Combo Points, scaling the effect of the finishers to the amount of Combo Points consumed. You can have up to five Combo Points on a target, and they will not automatically carry over should you change targets.

In-depth information for the Progue (see, a Pro Rogue, a Progue, get it?)
Specs
Assassination
Assassination focuses on daggers, poisons and hitting ridiculously hard. Assassination rogues learn Mutilate as their spec-defining ability at level 10, and their Mastery increases the damage of their poisons. Assassination talents do fun things like make you generate an extra Combo Point if your attack crits, or make your primary finishers refresh Slice and Dice for free. Envenom, being one of said finishers, will scale not only to the amount of Combo Points on the target, but also to the number of stacks of Deadly Poison currently applied.
Cons of Assassination include difficulty to maintain control over how many Combo Points are on your target and relatively boring cooldowns alongside poor AoE capabilities. Using Mutilate, you'll only be getting 5 combo points on a target if you luck out and crit with one of your Mutilates, so get accustomed to using 4-point finishers.
[url=]Assassination (DURR/HURR/HURR)[/url] Spec coming soon!

Combat
Combat focuses on quantity over quality, spreading damage out into innumerable amounts of hits. Combat rogues learn Blade Flurry as their spec-defining ability at level 10, and their mastery will generate bonus off-hand attacks. Combat rogues enjoy the luxury of higher energy regeneration and being able to spread their damage out over several targets at once—some of these effects come from talents, others from powerful cooldowns. The cooldowns are designed so as to be equally effective on one or several mobs at a time, especially if used all at once.
Cons of Combat include more finishers to juggle and significantly less poison damage. A lot of your damage will be coming from white hits, which unlike poison damage, is mitigated by armor.
[url=]Combat (HURR/DURR/HURR)[/url] Spec coming soon!

Subtlety
I'll be honest, I have no fucking clue how Sublety rogues work. I guess they like shadows and shit, and you sort of have to be a douche to play one if you look at the talents. I mean, they're all troll talents. Shadowstep? More like LOLITROLLU, amirite? So yeah, Subtlety rogues: sneaky douchebags with ridiculous talents and rage-inducing abilities.
Sounds like the perfect PvP tree.
[url=]Subtlety (HERP/FUCKING/DERP)[/url] Spec coming soon!

L2P
Assassination Rogues i have no fucking idea.
Combat Rogues not here either. specifically, that is.
Generally speaking, try to stay alive and take the load off your healers as much as you possibly can. Avoid as much raid damage as you can, as your damage mitigation won't be too impressive to begin with, and a dead rogue does 0 DPS. On fights with nova-like abilities, you'll often be able to use Feint or Cloak of Shadows to reduce (or completely negate) the damage, making the healers want to go down on you. Sure, it's a minor DPS loss (it's prudent to mention that so is running out of the nova's range and then running back), but if you wipe to an enrage timer because you DIED early on in the fight, you're stupid. You won't wipe to an enrage if you Feint now and then, and like I said, healers will love you. Always give the healers a good reason to love you. Always, always, always Tricks the tank unless you've got an equally good rogue who you can swap tricks with for the additional 15% damage. Be careful to time this right, though, as often the additional threat from another rogue will pull aggro and get one of you killed. Can't say how many times I've killed other rogues who thought they were ready for this (quite frankly not so advanced) strategy. If you want to play it safe, use Tricks of the Trade on the tank. They'll thank you, especially on fights where a fair amount of maneuvering is required and there's always some dumbfuck mage who starts spamming Arcane Barrage immediately, or whatever the fuck it is they do.
Rule of thumb: stay behind things. Stay behind the mob, and stay behind the tank on the threat meter. Oh and watch out for the tail, or else whelp groups, fifty DKP minus, fucking forsythe run to the center, etc.

Gearing
>implying i know fuck all about cataclysm rogue gearing
>implying i'm gonna write this before the majority of players start raiding
>implying implications

Senshi on
>Signatures
>2012
ISHYGDDT
«13456744

Posts

  • JavadocsJavadocs Registered User
    edited November 2009
    And so begins to era of Assassination.

    Those poison changes are just insane though. Their 'fix' for weapon swapping, but the increase in Deadly Poison procs just increases the damage.

    <3 being a rogue.

  • SenshiSenshi Registered User
    edited November 2009
    Yeah, we're in for some great times ahead. Really great times.

    >Signatures
    >2012
    ISHYGDDT
  • 28682868 Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    THANK YOU!

    Warhams. Allatime warhams.

    buy warhams
  • lifeincognitolifeincognito Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    The first post was so excellent I am making a Troll Rogue tomorrow. As such, how much of a downer would it be to not level as Combat if I wanted to indulge in the use of main handing daggers? As I would feel the need to be a 'true rogue' ... and yes, I play on an RP server.

    losers weepers. jawas keepers.
  • KafkaAUKafkaAU Western AustraliaRegistered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Those changes for 3.3 can't be real, I just did some very rough maths and its like a 2k dps boost.

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    Origin: KafkaAU B-Net: Kafka#1778
  • xmcxtr1pp1nxxmcxtr1pp1nx Registered User
    edited November 2009
    Rogues are only good for one thing: Fag Slap. (Gouge or Sap + Sprint away)

  • 28682868 Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    The first post was so excellent I am making a Troll Rogue tomorrow. As such, how much of a downer would it be to not level as Combat if I wanted to indulge in the use of main handing daggers? As I would feel the need to be a 'true rogue' ... and yes, I play on an RP server.

    I had a Troll Rogue, now he is a dwarf.

    Troll rogues are awkward. They remind me of Paul, Kevin Arnold's friend from the Wonder Years.

    Warhams. Allatime warhams.

    buy warhams
  • SenshiSenshi Registered User
    edited November 2009
    Hm, I forgot to include the Murder change. Do y'all like the OP?

    >Signatures
    >2012
    ISHYGDDT
  • BigityBigity Lubbock, TXRegistered User regular
    edited November 2009
    It's not openly biased enough against druids.

    And not one rouge

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  • EvilBadmanEvilBadman DO NOT TRUST THIS MAN Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Makes me feel better I'm mutilate instead of combat since changing a couple months back.

    FyreWulff wrote: »
    I should note that Badman is fucking awesome
    XBL- Evil Badman MD; Steam- EvilBadman; Twitter - EvilBadman
  • ForarForar #432 Already prepping for Toronto Fan Expo!Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Rogues are only good for one thing: Fag Slap. (Gouge or Sap + Sprint away)

    When did we manage to get X-Box Live on voice to text here?

  • TheCrumblyCrackerTheCrumblyCracker Registered User
    edited November 2009
    Wow, i have been leveling as combat (level 70 in Northrend now horray!) but that change to posions makes me want to switch to Ass. now so I can get the play spec down. It doesn't appear that there has been much change rotation wise from 70 raiding? (with the exception of spamming Envenom like it's going out of buisness, does Envenom still work with Stormstrike?)

  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Wow, the poison changes look ridiculous. Are rogues actually underperforming right now? In both of my guilds, the good rogues are right at the top with the others you expect to see there (hunters and mages in my guilds). More raid damage never hurts, but this seems like the sort of thing that's going to be toned down in some other way.

    Patch 5.4 wrote:
    First win of the day now awards 150 Conquest Points (up from 100).
    Subsequent wins now awards 75 Conquest Points (up from 50).
    YES! I AM INVINCIBLE!
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    does Envenom still work with Stormstrike?)
    The nature buff from Stormstrike only applies to the shaman who applied it. It's been this way for quite a while now -- I'm thinking since 3.0(?)

    Patch 5.4 wrote:
    First win of the day now awards 150 Conquest Points (up from 100).
    Subsequent wins now awards 75 Conquest Points (up from 50).
    YES! I AM INVINCIBLE!
  • SenshiSenshi Registered User
    edited November 2009
    wait

    wait wait

    envenom used to work with stormstrike? for real?

    >Signatures
    >2012
    ISHYGDDT
  • BigityBigity Lubbock, TXRegistered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Yes. Damn rogues were always stealing my thunder, literally.

    steam_sig.png
  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Yes, back in TBC Ele shamans would just eat through an Enhance Shaman's SS charges with lightning bolts, lol.

  • HalfmexHalfmex Matter of fact... I didn't even give you my coat!Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Hell of an OP, Senshi. Nice work.

    Edit: To actually contribute to the thread, I can't wait for 3.3. Those assassination changes are shit hot.

  • TheCrumblyCrackerTheCrumblyCracker Registered User
    edited November 2009
    Senshi wrote: »
    wait

    wait wait

    envenom used to work with stormstrike? for real?

    Back in Kharazan days I know it did for sure. I really pissed off my enhancement buddy.

    But then again I was running @ 30% of the DPS in our 10 mans. So he was forced to deal :)

  • interrobanginterrobang kawaii as  hellRegistered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Back in TBC, when I was big into 25-mans, me and the other rogue in my guild used to have competitions amongst ourselves as to who could steal the Shaman's Stormstrike more often.

    I won.

    Also, that poison change is fucking nuts.

  • TheCrumblyCrackerTheCrumblyCracker Registered User
    edited November 2009
    How big do Envenoms crit for? My FB's hit for around 14k+, can I expect bigger numbers. And does poison scale with AP?

  • SenshiSenshi Registered User
    edited November 2009
    Poison scales with AP, yes. Also, my Envenoms crit for roughly 14k these days, too.

    >Signatures
    >2012
    ISHYGDDT
  • Stew_StickStew_Stick Dinner UKRegistered User regular
    edited November 2009
    So I've been playing as combat spec since Ulduar was released and thought I'd give Ass. spec another go. At the moment I've got a Steel Bladebreaker and Webbed Death. I remember that fast/fast was the way to go a while back but I've heard that might have changed and that slow/slow might be better?

  • SenshiSenshi Registered User
    edited November 2009
    Slow/Fast.

    It's in the OP

    >Signatures
    >2012
    ISHYGDDT
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    5-point envenoms shouldn't be the highest critting ability. I don't know if there are even bigger critting abilities, but Ferocious Bite at least crits for more with Feral Aggression. Of course, FA is also a terrible DPS RoI for 5 talent points.

    Patch 5.4 wrote:
    First win of the day now awards 150 Conquest Points (up from 100).
    Subsequent wins now awards 75 Conquest Points (up from 50).
    YES! I AM INVINCIBLE!
  • ReignerReigner Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    I cannot wait til these 3.3 changes hit. My whopping 4.5-5.5K DPS stands to go even higher.

    Also finally getting a good fast OH (25-man ToC OH) makes me a happy Rogue.

    3DS FriendCode. Pokemon me: 0645-5757-1012
  • interrobanginterrobang kawaii as  hellRegistered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Reigner wrote: »
    I cannot wait til these 3.3 changes hit. My whopping 4.5-5.5K DPS stands to go even higher.

    Also finally getting a good fast OH (25-man ToC OH) makes me a happy Rogue.

    The Stygian Bladebreaker? I just got mine last weekend.

    It's taaasty.

  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    So do the EJ and PTR-testing folks have anything worked out to how much of a buff this will be?

    Patch 5.4 wrote:
    First win of the day now awards 150 Conquest Points (up from 100).
    Subsequent wins now awards 75 Conquest Points (up from 50).
    YES! I AM INVINCIBLE!
  • TofystedethTofystedeth veni, veneri, vamoosi Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    I just picked up my rogue again. I got her to 70 in BC before rolling a horde char to play with some RL friends. It was so weird coming back and having not even a full page of skills after having an 80 paladin and mage.

    I'm doing combat daggers now, cause I had 2 Ced's carvers and I remember running 5mans and a few Kara/gruul/mags as that with my friends guild. Turns out I had a sword, fist weapon, and mace of similar quality in my bank.

    NOt that it really matters until 80 anyway. Especially since I'm leveling with my wife's mage, things barely live long enough to get a hit in.

    I feel so awkward. I used to be half decent at roguing.

    steam_sig.png
  • superprokopsuperprokop Registered User
    edited November 2009
    I am primarily combat spec on my rogue. Have a nice One-Button-Does-It-All dps macro rotation to keep my SnD, Rupture and even gets Eviscerates in constantly. I duel-specced him recently for a mutilate spec as well. Only downside since I swapped to Mut is that only combat weapons are dropping for me now. Ony 25? The sword drops, ToC 10? Sword AND that mace drop. I can't get a dagger to save my life. Also huge downside is that my guild always wants my tankadin to be brought in :( Hard gearing an alt when you are MT for raids.

    Going from combat to Mutilate was tricky. I am used to a straight forward rotation that never changes really. SS > SnD > SS > Rupture > SS > Evis. But, I think I am finally getting the hang of it. Started to gem for Armor Pen now since we have a dps warrior keeping up sunders when I can at least bring the rogue in for a raid.

    Too big sig. Rules are for reading.
    Spoiler:
  • OatsOats Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    There's a few schools of thought on rogue PvP right now, but most of them centre around Mut/Prep.

    http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#fhxcoeMoirsMzZ0xZebfb0hdb:TkicVm

    That's pretty standard. You can drop Find Weakness for Focused Attacks. Or you can drop a few points to pick up Master Poisoner if you're having a hard time burning through plate. You'll have to put deadly poison on and start abusing those fat envenom crits. It's a razor's edge and all up to preference, really.

    The Vigor glyph is also not really all that awesome. It's all up to preference.

    For poisons I tend to run Wound/Mind Numbing. Elemental shamanses are so fun to kill.

  • SenshiSenshi Registered User
    edited November 2009
    Do you really use Eviscerate that much? Is it because of the standard poison choices?

    >Signatures
    >2012
    ISHYGDDT
  • OatsOats Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    I use evis unless I'm up against plate.

    So, yeah, basically. Gouge is too useful for getting someone out of your face briefly so you can burn down their friend, or just stopping their cast.

  • SenshiSenshi Registered User
    edited November 2009
    So like, if you had an eight-button bar, what serious shit buttons would you put on it? Off the top of my head, I'd say Mutilate, Eviscerate, Kidney Shot, Cheap Shot, Deadly Throw, Gouge, not counting powerful cooldowns like Preparation/Cold Blood. Anything you'd like to add? How does one play a rogue in PvP? I'd guess it'd have to be pretty offensively, i.e. KILL THEM BEFORE THEY KILL YOU, but do you focus on high damage or keeping them immobile? Maybe it depends on how many other people are around?

    I'm seriously hopeless at PvP, although I'd like to get a shot at it in for shits and giggles, especially considering I have a dual-specced rogue currently specced into sub-optimal PvE and optimal PvE. Might as well go PvP and PvE instead, right?

    >Signatures
    >2012
    ISHYGDDT
  • OatsOats Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Vanish, Cloak, Dismantle, Evasion, Sprint, Rocket Boots if you're an engineer and not in arenas (same goes for the mind control cap). We have a lot of ways to not die. Especially sprinting along the top of water with the right glyph.

    If the target is a squishy caster, I'll try to stunlock them from full to dead. Obviously this is easiest/only possible without outside interference. Non-demonology warlocks (rare), holy priests, mages, elemental or resto shaman, resto/boomkin druids all go here. I like to open with garrote for the little extra damage and the silence instead of a stun, for the purposed of DR.

    If it's another rogue getting a rupture up is very important. Use the trinket on Kidney Shot if it's going to be a big one. Dismantle them when your stunlock runs out. You can dismantle them if they dismantle you, which is a nice way to have nothing happen for a little while.

    Warriors you want to keep from hitting you a lot (obviously). If they're PvProt then evasion isn't a bad idea at all. If they're arms, dismantle and bleeds/deadly poison/envenom are your best bet. Don't be too afraid to stun them, especially if you're hurting. Stunlocks can often lead to kills against warrior if you've softened them up before.

    Fuck ret paladins. As one of the ret pallies in the Beasts puts it, a rogue's best chance is to blind them and hope they wander off a cliff.

    DKs are also annoying, but less so. Evasion is beautiful. I tend to open with cheap shot, then kidney, then dismantle, then evasion, then vanish to cheap shot, then pop Prep if it's up.

    Basically I always try to have a cooldown on me or them to keep from being eaten alive.

  • OatsOats Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Basic 8 buttons or so though?

    Mut, KS, Rupture, Evis, Kick, Deadly Throw, Cheap Shot, Garrote.

    Envenom is only worthwhile against high armour targets. You can burn blind to buy the time needed to get the poison on your weapon if you didn't have time to beforehand.

  • superprokopsuperprokop Registered User
    edited November 2009
    Here is the standard dps flow chart for Mut PvP. Pretty easy to understand in my opinion. Spoiler for size.
    Spoiler:

    Too big sig. Rules are for reading.
    Spoiler:
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Oats wrote: »
    I like to open with garrote for the little extra damage and the silence instead of a stun, for the purposed of DR.
    Please elaborate. I thought CS was in its own DR category now. Or at least separate from KS.

    Patch 5.4 wrote:
    First win of the day now awards 150 Conquest Points (up from 100).
    Subsequent wins now awards 75 Conquest Points (up from 50).
    YES! I AM INVINCIBLE!
  • KafkaAUKafkaAU Western AustraliaRegistered User regular
    edited November 2009
    That is correct forty.

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    Origin: KafkaAU B-Net: Kafka#1778
  • superprokopsuperprokop Registered User
    edited November 2009
    Possibly he uses a vanish CS combination and the second CS doesn't last long enough? *shrugs* I open with ambush or garrote because I dont like stuns. I really shouldn't play a rogue >.<

    Too big sig. Rules are for reading.
    Spoiler:
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