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[WoW] Rouges: OP not outdated; just lackluster. Sort of like Cat Druids

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Posts

  • HalfmexHalfmex Matter of fact... I didn't even give you my coat!Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    So, GC finally speaks up on Subtlety.

    Unsurprisingly, takes a lot of time to ultimately say very little:
    Subtlety Tree
    That's a good assessment. Ultimately, we'd like for more talent trees to look like Subtlety. Trading utility A for utility B is an interesting decision. Trading utility A for more dps is not an interesting decision; the latter is always going to win.

    Somewhat related, for the pure dps classes it's likely that there will always be a spec with the theoretically highest dps. It's going to be nigh impossible to make multiple talent trees provide identical dps regardless of gear improvement, encounter specifics or group synergies. Our goal instead is just to get things close enough that players are willing to sacrifice a little bit of dps for a playstyle they really enjoy. (For some players, losing any dps is unacceptable, but I also know enough hardcore players that I can say with some confidence that you can't just make a blanket statement that all competitive players feel this way.)

    I don't think we're there with rogues yet. Assassination is now a serious contender in end-game raiding, but Subtlety isn't and hasn't been since HAT was in a silly place. I think we're a lot closer with mages. Arcane may be the highest dps in a general sense, but there are fights on which Fire will win. Frost is a lot closer than it used to be, to the point where someone who just loves Frost won't feel like they are horribly gimping their group's progress. (It probably still needs to be slightly higher than where it is, but we'll see what Icecrown is like.) We eventually want to get rogues, locks and hunters closer to where mages appear to be in 3.3 (and work on mages more too of course).

    Honor Among Thieves was a good attempt to get more combo points, and therefore damage, into the tree. It ended up having the scaling problem that a lot of our abilites have -- it's easy for it to be too weak in a small, 5-player group and to be too powerful when it's scaling off of 25 players. (Restricting it to a group doesn't really help because you can just fill that group full of folks who crit a lot, and raids provide a lot more buffs to guarantee crits.)

    I do agree with the general feel of Subtlety being high finisher damage and cps through alternative routes, and that's a kit we want to keep going forward. I also agree that Ghostly Strike, Hemo and Backstab all could use more "juice" (by which I don't just mean higher dps). I'll also add that I think we went a little overboard in emphasizing damage over utility in Lich King PvE, especially in the earlier raid tiers. Who needs a good Sap when you're AE'ing everything down?

    PvP-wise, utility can be a lot more useful than in PvE. However, as I've said before we think we've kind of let rogues get into too much of that glass cannon state. They either keep someone controlled and blow them up, or they themselves get blown up. We would still like to tone down some of the rogue CC and increase some of their passive (not cooldown-based) survivability. It's a little weird that leather classes are generally more fragile than cloth.

    We try very hard not to give due dates on some of these changes. When you read through threads like this, I think you can see why. The risk of sharing some of our long-term plans is players then get frustrated when the changes don't materialize in the next patch. We have a very long list of changes we'd like to make to WoW, and if we tried to get them all into whatever the next patch is going to be, those patches would just get continually delayed. When I say "long term" I'm trying to say not to look for a change any time soon (because we haven't made the change yet) but that we recognize the problem and have some ideas we'd like to try out. This philosophy is the whole genesis of the infamous "Soon" and "When it's ready."

    In other words, it isn't that we don't care -- just that we have a lot to do. If you buy that, then all you can really argue with is our prioritization for what we do first and I totally acknowledge there are subjective elements to that as well as considerations that aren't necessarily transparent to the community. I have no doubt that you might prioritize things differently were you in our shoes.

    I know the Blizzard pace of development can be frustrating for some people, but when you look back at the history of the company, it's hard to argue that it doesn't work for us.

  • KafkaAUKafkaAU Western AustraliaRegistered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Very little? he said nothing new that I can see.

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    Origin: KafkaAU B-Net: Kafka#1778
  • TheCrumblyCrackerTheCrumblyCracker Registered User
    edited December 2009
    2 levels to go! I have (for when I hit 80) 2x LPC, a BOE blue ring, the TOC leather bracers, (probably going to get the chest made when Orbs drop like a rock in price, as well as arctic fur). Are there any really nice blue/ purple pieces I should be on the lookout for on the AH? I was told not to bother buying the mah epic BOE dagger, LPC is apparently superior for mutilate?

    Are there any sweet quest rewards I should do? Right now I am powering away at the Tournament dailies so I can start getting Tokens ASAP, 'cause that epic dagger is free :)

  • HalfmexHalfmex Matter of fact... I didn't even give you my coat!Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    KafkaAU wrote: »
    Very little? he said nothing new that I can see.
    Well, this part at least
    I do agree with the general feel of Subtlety being high finisher damage and cps through alternative routes, and that's a kit we want to keep going forward. I also agree that Ghostly Strike, Hemo and Backstab all could use more "juice" (by which I don't just mean higher dps).

    was new to me, if not particularly informative. The issue is he still doesn't really "get it". The Subtlety tree has no real direction to speak of, and giving backstab "more juice" isn't going to do anything to make the tree more appealing. As long as Prep is the star of that tree (and as long as our cooldowns are three bloody minutes apiece, it will be) then it's going to be used as a sub-spec for Mutilate in PvP, that's pretty much it. The only reason anyone specced into Sub in PvE at all was for HaT and that's broken now (and honestly that's for the best; it was a ridiculous talent).

    I'll be interested to see what the 'grand restructuring' of talents in Cat will do to these trees. I'm speculating that we'll get Shadowstep as a trainable talent; we've needed some help in the mobility category for some time now. Beyond that though, I can only imagine what they'll do to us.

  • TheCrumblyCrackerTheCrumblyCracker Registered User
    edited December 2009
    Back in BC I specd Hemo, power leveled blacksmithing, and had myself one bad ass hammer. Ghost Strike + hemo = ahh the combo points! It was a great time for all.

    If they want to make sub utility, I think a good starting point would be to have it buff your Target's Target with the dodge buff, or just give the target a miss chancefor the next N seconds or attacks. Useful rogue abilities, whaaaaaaaat?

  • AriviaArivia Registered User
    edited December 2009
    I'm currently levelling my rogue as Mut for a stretch after I found an Elanor's Edge on my main. (Armory link)

    Coming from Combat, though, I'm feeling a little weak and a little slower than i used to be - lots of eating and so on.

    My current grinding rotation has been to pop garrote on the first mob, hfb, mut for snd and by then it's usually dead.

    Which works usually fine.

    But on the next two mobs before hfb wears off, I'm having trouble keeping snd up through whatever refreshes it. On those later pulls, I've been ambushing, mut mut evisc (or envenom if I have the stacks up.) and I'm usually getting my face bashed in pretty hard. Should I maybe be cheap shotting and then kidney shot? Do you think glyphing/respeccing into imp. snd would help, or should I just accept that I'm failure at assassination and go back to combat?

    huntresssig.jpg
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    I don't know if this changed at some point, but for leveling assassination, I always used to see it recommended not to bother with HfB (except in group situations), and rather just open with CS.

    Patch 5.4 wrote:
    First win of the day now awards 150 Conquest Points (up from 100).
    Subsequent wins now awards 75 Conquest Points (up from 50).
    YES! I AM INVINCIBLE!
  • BloodshedBloodshed I smoke my friends Down to the FilterRegistered User regular
    edited December 2009
    I'd love to see Hemo as a viable raid spec again.
    Hemo/Seal Fate was a blast to run, with lots of fun utility.

  • TheCrumblyCrackerTheCrumblyCracker Registered User
    edited December 2009
    I specd imp. SND while leveing, really helped.

  • BoogdudBoogdud Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    forty wrote: »
    So do the EJ and PTR-testing folks have anything worked out to how much of a buff this will be?

    On the PTR for myself (mix if 245/258 gear) my combat spec, which I am forced into because we don't have an arms warrior, dps only went up by about 300-400 or so, unbuffed. Which is nice. I'm using hellscream slicer + blood fury.

    Mutilate, with dual stygian bladebreakers (I have bad luck with daggers one is 258 the other 245), went up by a good 1500 dps. The difference is insane. My off-spec is now out dps'ing my main spec by 1000-1500dps with no upgrade in gear. Which makes the "nice" buff to combat seem pretty weak.

    It's kind of disheartening because I love mutilate so much. Though I highly doubt this stuff will stick for very long. Mutilate essentially caught up with combat with the 3.2.2 master poisoner buff, with 3.3 it completely blows it out of the water.

    Many say "oh pshaw, combat is still great because of the situational aoe damage and the savage combat buff". To which I say, rogues aren't an unselfish class. If I wanted to be situational or buff the raid I'd play a paladin or a druid. They want DPS and that's about it for the most part.

    Combat is going to go the way of HAT rogues after this patch if this stuff sticks from the ptr.

  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Thanks for the update, Boogdud. I was suspecting that the DP change was going to be huge for assassination just from eyeballing/head mathing the changes, but some tested numbers helps seal it.

    Considering how competitive rogues already are now, they'd better be topping the meters with this buff next patch. I'm going to mock profusely any of our geared rogues who aren't doing so since they'll be out of excuses now.

    Patch 5.4 wrote:
    First win of the day now awards 150 Conquest Points (up from 100).
    Subsequent wins now awards 75 Conquest Points (up from 50).
    YES! I AM INVINCIBLE!
  • MetacortexMetacortex The Prettiest Zombie Coeur d'CoeursRegistered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Some blue post earlier made it sound like mages were doing the most on the PTR.

    I'm torn, because I've been tanking and enjoying it lately, and wouldn't mind continuing that when the patch drops, but doing over 9k dps would be so fun. My rogue already does around 7500 in 25 man tank n' spanks as Assassination.

    4FNao2T.png
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    I haven't looked at the 3.3 notes in a while. Are mages getting any buffs? Or is their DPS just a result of T10 gear scaling/set bonuses?

    And yes, I'm aware that (good) mages are pretty well topping charts now, but rogues are close by and getting some pretty significant buffs.

    Patch 5.4 wrote:
    First win of the day now awards 150 Conquest Points (up from 100).
    Subsequent wins now awards 75 Conquest Points (up from 50).
    YES! I AM INVINCIBLE!
  • KafkaAUKafkaAU Western AustraliaRegistered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Our charts currently look like some combination of mages rogues and hunters. I too would hope that in 3.3 rogues will be comfortably at the top.

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    Origin: KafkaAU B-Net: Kafka#1778
  • TheCrumblyCrackerTheCrumblyCracker Registered User
    edited December 2009
    Okay, I have enough emblems where I don't know what I should buy.

    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Kel%27Thuzad&n=Nadsat

    I have enough honor to buy any piece I want (not sure what will last me)
    I have enough emblems for the waist or pants.
    I am thinking of making the TOC Chestpiece (more then likely once 3.3 hits and arctic fur prices drop), but also possibly the Ulda belt.

    Suggestions are appreciated !

  • HalfmexHalfmex Matter of fact... I didn't even give you my coat!Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Dear god, that assassination buff in 3.3 truly is insane. I'm doing around 5.5-6k in a lot of these 5 man runs now, and I'm just in a smattering of 219-226 level gear.

    There's no way this buff is going to last, but by god I'm going to enjoy every second of it while it does.

  • BloodshedBloodshed I smoke my friends Down to the FilterRegistered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Yar, doing around 4.9k DPS on 5-man tank & spank bosses in mostly ilvl 200 gear.
    Something like 34% of my damage is from Instant Poison, its beautiful.
    Just gotta get that HR up a bit higher......


    -Bloodshed-


    EDIT: Also, our T10 is hideous. WTF is that a divers helmet?

  • bombboybombboy Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Bloodshed wrote: »
    Yar, doing around 4.9k DPS on 5-man tank & spank bosses in mostly ilvl 200 gear.
    Something like 34% of my damage is from Instant Poison, its beautiful.
    Just gotta get that HR up a bit higher......


    -Bloodshed-


    EDIT: Also, our T10 is hideous. WTF is that a divers helmet?

    Geistttttt, don't you want to get pulled by the collar around our neck? :winky:

    XBL - BombBoyGT | PSN - BombBoyGT | Steam - BombBoy | BF4
  • AriviaArivia Registered User
    edited December 2009
    Bloodshed wrote: »
    Yar, doing around 4.9k DPS on 5-man tank & spank bosses in mostly ilvl 200 gear.
    Something like 34% of my damage is from Instant Poison, its beautiful.
    Just gotta get that HR up a bit higher......


    -Bloodshed-


    EDIT: Also, our T10 is hideous. WTF is that a divers helmet?

    And I'm doing 1870 on Gal'darah in levelling blues at 77. 29% instant poison, crazy crazy buff.

    huntresssig.jpg
  • TheCrumblyCrackerTheCrumblyCracker Registered User
    edited December 2009
    Bloodshed wrote: »
    Yar, doing around 4.9k DPS on 5-man tank & spank bosses in mostly ilvl 200 gear.
    Something like 34% of my damage is from Instant Poison, its beautiful.
    Just gotta get that HR up a bit higher......


    -Bloodshed-

    Yeah, my DPS is crazy as well, especially because I am rocking 5man ICC gear. I need to get hit capped ASAP.

    -TheCrumblyCracker-

  • DiannaoChongDiannaoChong Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    http://www.wowwiki.com/Nevermelting_Ice_Crystal
    Nevermelting Ice Crystal
    Equip: Increases spell power by 111.
    Use: Increases your critical strike rating by 9xx for 20 sec. Every time one of your non-periodic spells deals a critical strike, the bonus is reduced by 184 critical strike rating. (3 Min Cooldown)

    So. Seeing as we cant get the bonus reduced on use, would 20 seconds of 9xx crit rating be worth it every 3 minutes? before diminishing returns this is like 24% crit. Or would we cap it easily and fuck ourselves?

    20 seconds out of 3 minutes / 954 (I think)

    That equals out to 2% crit all the time. I suppose it isnt great unless you are trinket swapping.

    steam_sig.png
  • KafkaAUKafkaAU Western AustraliaRegistered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Wouldn't instant poison crits reduce it?

    I don't think it would be worth it, probably close to the white crit cap as mutilate anyway.

    steam_sig.png
    Origin: KafkaAU B-Net: Kafka#1778
  • HalfmexHalfmex Matter of fact... I didn't even give you my coat!Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    6.7k DPS, non-flasked, in the exact same gear (well, I got a MH dagger upgrade, ilevel 232 from 219) I was doing 4-4.5k in a few days ago.

    jizzinmypants.jpg

    Oddly, EJ is saying to spec entirely out of Blood Spatter and remove the Glyph of Rupture - for a ruptureless build I suppose? I guess in a 25 man that's possible, but our ten man group doesn't have a bleed-applier, so that's kind of not going to happen for me.

  • BodyknockBodyknock Registered User
    edited December 2009
    I just switched to MUT from Combat, and I'm sort of confused on the rotation...I just stole a spec from EJ and, like Halfmex said, I am finding out I can't use Hunger for Blood because of no bleed effect on my target...so, I'm guessing this is how it should go down:

    Opener->SnD->Rupture->HfB->Envenom? and just try to keep up Rupture and HfB while Envenoming?

    My rogue is an alt, so sort of undergeared/unenchanted...Aoryn on Baelgun (at work, so I can't link an armory).

  • superprokopsuperprokop Registered User
    edited December 2009
    What are you using as an opener? You can just toss a garrote up so you can hit HfB then SnD right away. Opening with ambush is nice and all, but your best bet is a garrote so you can already have the bleed going and waiting for HfB to start up.

    Too big sig. Rules are for reading.
    Spoiler:
  • BodyknockBodyknock Registered User
    edited December 2009
    I was just fiddling with random openers...Garrote seems like the way to go.

    My main is a resto druid, so this rogue stuff is pretty crazy.

  • superprokopsuperprokop Registered User
    edited December 2009
    Yeah, they have more of set "rules" then a rotation like a combat rogue has. Similar to a feral druid with their rules of savage roar and mangle (sorry if names are incorrect)

    Too big sig. Rules are for reading.
    Spoiler:
  • BoogdudBoogdud Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Halfmex wrote: »
    6.7k DPS, non-flasked, in the exact same gear (well, I got a MH dagger upgrade, ilevel 232 from 219) I was doing 4-4.5k in a few days ago.

    jizzinmypants.jpg

    Oddly, EJ is saying to spec entirely out of Blood Spatter and remove the Glyph of Rupture - for a ruptureless build I suppose? I guess in a 25 man that's possible, but our ten man group doesn't have a bleed-applier, so that's kind of not going to happen for me.

    Sure you can, actually if you don't have a bleeder, then you're probably much better off going without rupture since you're not getting trauma or any other buff to bleeds.

    Just stealth > garrote > put up hfb > use that 1 cp to snd > get a mute off > env and you're off to the races.

    You won't have to worry about hfb for a full minute and if the target isn't dead by then just throw in a rupture with whatever combo points you have when it's about to fall off and get hfb back up.

  • HalfmexHalfmex Matter of fact... I didn't even give you my coat!Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Oh yeah, I always open with Garrote (or when I can at least - there are the occasional fights where I'll get knocked out of stealth for whatever reason and Garrote's no longer an option since I wait for an opportune time to burn Vanish).

    But that's what was throwing me - seems like you'd want to keep that Glyph of Rupture since it's always if nothing else at least a nice boost to the Ruptures you will eventually have to throw in if you don't have a bleeder in the group (which I don't). If there were better choices for Major Glyphs for us, that'd be one thing, but I just can't see glyphing Tricks over a rotational boost. /shrug

  • BoogdudBoogdud Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Halfmex wrote: »

    But that's what was throwing me - seems like you'd want to keep that Glyph of Rupture since it's always if nothing else at least a nice boost to the Ruptures you will eventually have to throw in if you don't have a bleeder in the group (which I don't). If there were better choices for Major Glyphs for us, that'd be one thing, but I just can't see glyphing Tricks over a rotational boost. /shrug


    I think it's just a matter of gear, but even at low levels with the master poisoner buff, envenoms' damage blows rupture out of the water. It (rpt) becomes a waste of energy unless you just want to do a 1cp one to keep your hfb up. Rupture really shouldn't even be in a rogue's rotation if you have master poisoner. Once you start doing 16k envenoms every 6 seconds you'll want that tricks. ;P

    btw, I know what you mean about getting knocked out of stealth... Seems a bunch of the icc and 5 man guys have bs "auras" that knock you out. That's when you just have to soak it up and put up a rupture at the start (with however cp's your first mute gives you, don't waste time trying to get a 5pt) and the hfb+snd and forget about it.

  • superprokopsuperprokop Registered User
    edited December 2009
    So, is the new Assassination damage really skyrocketed that much? My combat weapons are far superiour to my daggers so I have not tried swapping to my Mut spec since 3.3 released. I may have to give it a shot when I get off of work and see how I fair in the new instances.

    Too big sig. Rules are for reading.
    Spoiler:
  • HalfmexHalfmex Matter of fact... I didn't even give you my coat!Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Mute is insane right now. I'd even go so far as to say that even if you're only rocking two LPC's, mutilate will still outperform your combat weapons, whatever they may be (unless, perhaps, they're ICC-10 weapons or above, but even then...ehh).

  • Kid PresentableKid Presentable Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    There's no way these buffs will last, which makes me very sad.

  • HalfmexHalfmex Matter of fact... I didn't even give you my coat!Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Oh no question - I'm surprised it went live like this. Still, this is the end of the road for WotLK. There won't be any more major patches and what we will (reportedly) get are small updates to what we currently have in terms of content. That being the case, maybe they'll just let things lie as they are until Cataclysm. ICC's supposed to get easier with each passing month anyway (due to the buff everyone gets apparently), so who knows?

    I know, I know, wishful thinking. Still, one last 'hurrah' for us before we're 'balanced' for Cat would be nice.

  • TheCrumblyCrackerTheCrumblyCracker Registered User
    edited December 2009
    6k on 25m VOA.

    I just got the superior achievement today.

  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Halfmex wrote: »
    Oh no question - I'm surprised it went live like this. Still, this is the end of the road for WotLK. There won't be any more major patches and what we will (reportedly) get are small updates to what we currently have in terms of content. That being the case, maybe they'll just let things lie as they are until Cataclysm. ICC's supposed to get easier with each passing month anyway (due to the buff everyone gets apparently), so who knows?
    It's going to be nerfed. They don't want shit like world first Arthas or hard mode X or whatever to be a matter of which guild can field the most assassination rogues.

    The question is whether or not the general DP buff did too much for Combat or if they're fine with it where it is. If it's the latter, then some assassination talent(s) will probably get nerfed. If combat got too much of a buff from it, they'll probably find a way to cool off the DP change. Maybe they'll make the main hand proc only do half damage or be unable to crit or something.

    Patch 5.4 wrote:
    First win of the day now awards 150 Conquest Points (up from 100).
    Subsequent wins now awards 75 Conquest Points (up from 50).
    YES! I AM INVINCIBLE!
  • HalfmexHalfmex Matter of fact... I didn't even give you my coat!Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Well, this didn't take long
    Hunger for Blood now increases a rogues damage by 10% down from 15%.

    Meh, was fun while it lasted.

    Edit: Still, nerfed damage aside, they at least left the assassination changes in (Envenom specifically) which is a huge quality of life improvement that I'm happy to see.

  • BodyknockBodyknock Registered User
    edited December 2009
    Dang...didn't even get to really try it out before the nerf. Ah well.

    I'm sort of getting bored/tired of healing, so I'm thinking of "switching" with our Hunter, effectively replacing a Tree with a Priest, and a Hunter with a Rogue...will this mess our 10man composition up too much? I know our paladin MT will miss those Innervates, but besides that? The only thing I can think of is losing a ranged DPS (for fights like Onyxia), but I don't think that'd be that much of a problem, as we'd still have a Boomkin, Warlock, and another Hunter.

    Also, there will be 2 Rogues...should one of us spec Combat and the other MUT to get the best of both worlds? Does it even matter? My guild only does normal 10man modes...and we sorta suck, anyway.

  • superprokopsuperprokop Registered User
    edited December 2009
    You dont need to have one of each rogue actually. Just be sure to time your second and after Tricks of the trade to hit each other with them and not the tank. Unless the tank has threat issues.

    Why would your paladin MT miss Innervate? I kind of hope you meant your paladin Main Healer and not Main Tank. A pally MT should never ever ever ever ever ever use a druid's innervate. They don't have mana issues at all in a 10 man raid. Except for maybe General in Ulduar. But other than that.

    And sacrificing a ranged for a melee with you will still have 3 ranged is not bad at all. Will help with the elite adds in Ony.

    Too big sig. Rules are for reading.
    Spoiler:
  • BodyknockBodyknock Registered User
    edited December 2009
    Ah...I wasn't clear, I meant he'll miss it during our 5man heroic runs (helps with the downtime, and he hates waiting to drink between pulls). During the raids, yeah...I'm usually Innervating our Priest or Boomkin.

    Other noob Rogue questions:
    I've been gemming straight +Agility (after activating my meta)...should I change to +AP? I've read conflicting theories...

    What is the best way to use Cold Blood? I've been saving it for Envenom...can I macro this?

    Our other rogue isn't the best DPS (though not the worst) and dies a lot to whirlwinds and such...and so they are against me switching...how do I convince them it'll be fine?

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