Yup, wait until those hybrids get gear later on in the instance as well.
Anyone else find it hilarious that they nerf assas when they do nothing but single target dps, meanwhile unholy dks, ferals, etc. do metric shit-tons more aoe dps. Yet they single target dps within 5% of the single-target only dps'er that got the nerf? /thumbsup
If bosses are dying that fast, then it doesn't matter that you're not doing optimal DPS. I don't think anyone gets pissed off when bosses and trash are dying quickly and the run goes fast and smoothly..
I just don't like the feeling that I could be doing better. My paladin does literally twice the dps on trash. Though paladin AoE got buffed so much...
Yup, wait until those hybrids get gear later on in the instance as well.
Anyone else find it hilarious that they nerf assas when they do nothing but single target dps, meanwhile unholy dks, ferals, etc. do metric shit-tons more aoe dps. Yet they single target dps within 5% of the single-target only dps'er that got the nerf? /thumbsup
You're seriously blowing my mind here. Ferals do more aoe dps than the buffed and awesome-in-my-experience fan of knives?
There is sense to the idea that single-target dps matters much more than aoe dps, and that the former should be the most carefully watched and tweaked.
If bosses are dying that fast, then it doesn't matter that you're not doing optimal DPS. I don't think anyone gets pissed off when bosses and trash are dying quickly and the run goes fast and smoothly..
I just don't like the feeling that I could be doing better. My paladin does literally twice the dps on trash. Though paladin AoE got buffed so much...
That's because ret is a burst damage aoe rape machine. If you want to feel like you could be doing better, you need to do some VoA raids or something where assassination reigns supreme. Heroics are a joke, so there's really no sense sweating them.
Yup, wait until those hybrids get gear later on in the instance as well.
Anyone else find it hilarious that they nerf assas when they do nothing but single target dps, meanwhile unholy dks, ferals, etc. do metric shit-tons more aoe dps. Yet they single target dps within 5% of the single-target only dps'er that got the nerf? /thumbsup
You're seriously blowing my mind here. Ferals do more aoe dps than the buffed and awesome-in-my-experience fan of knives?
There is sense to the idea that single-target dps matters much more than aoe dps, and that the former should be the most carefully watched and tweaked.
Yep, pretty much. What fights in ICC so far are advantageous to the AoE gods unholy DKs, ferals(?), etc.?
You're seriously blowing my mind here. Ferals do more aoe dps than the buffed and awesome-in-my-experience fan of knives?
You're kidding right? Have you played a mutilate rogue or used Fok in the last couple months? Fok has been nerfed to hell, not to mention go try to aoe as mutilate with no AR from combat. Let me know how that goes. Assas is the single target dps tree.
As far as Forty's point asking what fights are advantageous to aoe specs. You're reinforcing the thought behind the buff to mutilate in the first place. Mutilate was buffed because everyone was combat, because combat was neck and neck with mutilate AND could do aoe and situational dps while mute offered no multi target dps. Now they're nerfing mutilate despite having no aoe or situation dps benefits.
So, once gear levels are caught up later in the instance, what's the point of being mutilate now? Other than screwing yourself out of burst and multi-target fights. Which admittedly so far there have not been many multi friendly fights in ICC with the exceptions of airship and deathwhisper. But even if 1/3 of the fights are multi friendly, being mutilate basically screws you out of that dps when the opportunity presents itself vs. being maybe 2% lower dps single target but having much more flexibility. Which was supposed to be the reason for the buff to mutilate in the first place, again.
This is a knee jerk nerf, which really does nothing except lower overall raid dps, so that the hybrids that have been on top for so long can feel better about themselves again.
I have seen rogues in my guild do tons of aoe dps, and I've seen myself as a feral do terrible dps. I was only reasonably sure that the rogues were using assassination. The latter was in the mid-70s, but all the basic tools were there.
Edit: And now I remember the other piece of information that led me to believe they were awesome at it. I thought focused attacks gave back energy for every single crit on one use of FoK.
I have seen rogues in my guild do tons of aoe dps, and I've seen myself as a feral do terrible dps. I was only reasonably sure that the rogues were using assassination. The latter was in the mid-70s, but all the basic tools were there.
If they're assassination, they have not been doing aoe damage of any significance in months. Now if they were combat and were blade flurrying and then popping adrenaline and Fok'ing, that's a totally different matter. It also has absolutely nothing to do with assas or the nerf to it.
So, once gear levels are caught up later in the instance, what's the point of being mutilate now? Other than screwing yourself out of burst and multi-target fights. Which admittedly so far there have not been many multi friendly fights in ICC with the exceptions of airship and deathwhisper. But even if 1/3 of the fights are multi friendly, being mutilate basically screws you out of that dps when the opportunity presents itself vs. being maybe 2% lower dps single target but having much more flexibility. Which was supposed to be the reason for the buff to mutilate in the first place, again.
Yeah, assassination is so gimped on Deathwhisper and Gunship.
Yeah, assassination is so gimped on Deathwhisper and Gunship.
I think you're confusing obtuseness for meaningful dialogue or input. Stop that.
Yes, mutilate is at a significant disadvantage in multiple target, fast switching fights. It's just as "gimped" as the 2pc tier 10 divine storm spamming pally, or the poor shred/rip spamming druid, or the unholy dk during a single target fight.
You can (and should) leave mutilate rogues on Deathwhisper full time.
What multiple targets are you quickly switching between on Gunship? During freeze you hop over and kill a single, somewhat high health target. Otherwise you can be in a gun where it doesn't matter what class you are. Or, if for some reason they've got you helping with the portal adds, you just tricks the tank and hit FoK. They're not particularly difficult, and FoK spam does just fine.
Anyway, tons of specs are at a disadvantage in multiple target, fast switching fights, so oh noes, poor assassination. It will be fine. Spec it because you like to play the spec and because it will still be good. These changes aren't pushing back to the dark ages of vanilla where combat was the only viable spec.
So far in ICC, it's the fucking Beast Mastery spec of rogues, so it's a little ridiculous to expect it to be dominant.
It's getting low enough that they can redesign the talent to be more interesting.
edit: Re: Hunger for Blood. Didn't realize I was replying to a botp and not the newest post.
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BloodshedI smoke my friendsDown to the FilterRegistered Userregular
edited January 2010
Every year, Blizzard seems to forget the definition of Hybrid, and buff them all to hell because they are such popular classes to play.
Paladins, Druids, Death Knights and Shamans are all pretty sick right now, with the right gear and a decent player behind the keyboard.
Rogues have been a one-trick pony since day one.
We do Melee DPS. And that's it.
On single targets, theoretically, the only thing that should compare to a rogue, is a Hunter, as the ranged counterpart, being that a Hunter is primarily a one-trick pony also, being Ranged DPS.
Mages and Warlocks, also being non-hybrid ranged DPS, have added utility with pets, buffs and other raid tools, along with AoE damage capability.
Sadly, the sqeakiest wheel gets oiled first, and Rogues have ever been an undertone in the Din beneath rabid Hybrids and, in general, more vocal members of the other classes.
At some point during the beginning of WotLK, Rogues became the "How can we tweak overall Raid DPS?" class, and we have both had moments to rejoice and weep during the highs and lows.
We all knew the poison damage boost was going to be a short-lived thing, and we were right.
Most of us will go back to our Combat specs, and the upside to that is we'll have a use for that Battered Hilt, and regret the ones we AH'd =P
The nerf is bigger than it needs to be, but not entirely undeserved.
Rogues are in this sort of weird position. On the one hand people bitch when we're top DPS on standstill single target fights, but I can't think of many other classes that should take that spot. We offer almost no raid utility and are squishy melee damage - if it is acceptable for any pure damage class to put out good damage, it's Rogue.
Having already raided this week feeling the nerf, it's not the end of the world either. It really does amount to about an 8-10% total DPS loss, but I'm still not having much trouble staying at the top of my raid damage and putting out what I think are reasonable numbers for my gear.
The most irritating thing to me is how shameless the nerf is, it really does continue the long line of "Let's keep this poorly-designed 51 pt talent in there just so we have a literal way to adjust a Rogue's damage to a certain percent". Hunger for Blood needs a fucking revamp.
Having already raided this week feeling the nerf, it's not the end of the world either. It really does amount to about an 8-10% total DPS loss, but I'm still not having much trouble staying at the top of my raid damage and putting out what I think are reasonable numbers for my gear.
Sounds like it doesn't warrant all the crying then.
I'm sure HFB will get a revamp in Cataclysm. Blizzard has said they're still not quite happy with its implementation. Expecting a talent to be redone before 4.0 is probably unrealistic at this point.
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BloodshedI smoke my friendsDown to the FilterRegistered Userregular
edited January 2010
The moral of the story is, whatever you have to say, forty has a negative retort prepared.
Every year, Blizzard seems to forget the definition of Hybrid, and buff them all to hell because they are such popular classes to play.
Paladins, Druids, Death Knights and Shamans are all pretty sick right now, with the right gear and a decent player behind the keyboard.
Rogues have been a one-trick pony since day one.
We do Melee DPS. And that's it.
On single targets, theoretically, the only thing that should compare to a rogue, is a Hunter, as the ranged counterpart, being that a Hunter is primarily a one-trick pony also, being Ranged DPS.
Mages and Warlocks, also being non-hybrid ranged DPS, have added utility with pets, buffs and other raid tools, along with AoE damage capability.
Sadly, the sqeakiest wheel gets oiled first, and Rogues have ever been an undertone in the Din beneath rabid Hybrids and, in general, more vocal members of the other classes.
At some point during the beginning of WotLK, Rogues became the "How can we tweak overall Raid DPS?" class, and we have both had moments to rejoice and weep during the highs and lows.
We all knew the poison damage boost was going to be a short-lived thing, and we were right.
Most of us will go back to our Combat specs, and the upside to that is we'll have a use for that Battered Hilt, and regret the ones we AH'd =P
unless you mean Enhancement shamans and said shamans are pulling beastly numbers, you can take them off the list. Shammies are doing absolutely terribly right now.
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BloodshedI smoke my friendsDown to the FilterRegistered Userregular
Every year, Blizzard seems to forget the definition of Hybrid, and buff them all to hell because they are such popular classes to play.
Paladins, Druids, Death Knights and [strike]Shamans[/strike] are all pretty sick right now, with the right gear and a decent player behind the keyboard.
Rogues have been a one-trick pony since day one.
We do Melee DPS. And that's it.
On single targets, theoretically, the only thing that should compare to a rogue, is a Hunter, as the ranged counterpart, being that a Hunter is primarily a one-trick pony also, being Ranged DPS.
Mages and Warlocks, also being non-hybrid ranged DPS, have added utility with pets, buffs and other raid tools, along with AoE damage capability.
Sadly, the sqeakiest wheel gets oiled first, and Rogues have ever been an undertone in the Din beneath rabid Hybrids and, in general, more vocal members of the other classes.
At some point during the beginning of WotLK, Rogues became the "How can we tweak overall Raid DPS?" class, and we have both had moments to rejoice and weep during the highs and lows.
We all knew the poison damage boost was going to be a short-lived thing, and we were right.
Most of us will go back to our Combat specs, and the upside to that is we'll have a use for that Battered Hilt, and regret the ones we AH'd =P
unless you mean Enhancement shamans and said shamans are pulling beastly numbers, you can take them off the list. Shammies are doing absolutely terribly right now.
SenshiBALLING OUT OF CONTROLWavefrontRegistered Userregular
edited January 2010
back to rogues, it's a fucking shame they can't let us have anything fun, but at the same time, they ARE going in the right direction in terms of taking HfB out of the picture. It's still a stupid fucking mechanic, though. If they removed the bleed effect, I'd be the happiest motherfucker on earth right now.
Probably won't happen because blizzard like to be cunts, but meh.
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BloodshedI smoke my friendsDown to the FilterRegistered Userregular
edited January 2010
If they're going to stick us with it until 4.0, they might as well make it a passive talent that provides the damage bonus on a bleeding target.
Then they can fiddle with it's percent all day and I won't care because it's one less button I have to mash.
Eh I like the bleed mechanic for HfB gives us something more to think about. I don't like sleeping through dungeons/raids I like to earn my meal. I mean Monster Hunter is my favorite game. Facerolling for the lose. Still I really don't feel like we needed a nerf. We should be the single target dps kings, I mean its all we've got.
On a non crying note an Unsharpened Ice Razor finally dropped for me tonight, bye bye paper cutter never shall we meet again. I will get serker on it tomorrow and rape many a mob. I have only been 80 for a month or two pretty happy with how my rogue is progressing. Armory:
These changes aren't pushing back to the dark ages of vanilla where combat was the only viable spec.
So far in ICC, it's the fucking Beast Mastery spec of rogues, so it's a little ridiculous to expect it to be dominant.
Combat daggers wasn't the only viable spec, it absolutely smashed every other *class* into the dirt. Ah, the good old days
As for it being the BM of rogues, uh, what rogue spec ISN'T a 2-3 button spec? It's not like rogues have even changed since vanilla wow.... remove backstab, insert mutilate, instead of clicking snd now you're clicking hfb. The rogue hasn't changed in 4 years aside from poisons lasting longer and not falling off in an instance.
I'm just saying, now it's harder to pick between combat and mutilate despite blizz telling us all at the panels that daggers would be 'teh awesomz' for rogues.
I like that people try to act like rogues are the ez mode dps class vs other classes. EVERY dps class is at most 3-4 buttons over and over (excepting maybe an aff lock). This game is about as deep as a mudpuddle.
It's why I'm sad that rupture isn't part of the rotation anymore. At least it was one more button.
I agree with this in the sense that it gave you something else to watch, and made you feel more active.
Well, I can't really agree with the rupture being a good thing. If it was actually situational it would mean you had to actually pay attention or use a braincell to use it. But as it was, rupture was just one more button to push. Pushing another button really doesn't make the class any more deep or gameplay any more intuitive.
Now if we had say different *types* of attacks that we could only use under certain conditions, or something completely situational, that sort of thing, it would be something interesting gameplay wise. But another button to press, just for the sake of pressing another button is pretty meaningless. ie) if I only press 2 buttons ALL THE TIME rather than 3 buttons ALL THE TIME my dps is less. That's pretty weak.
It wouldn't matter if you had to press 2 buttons or 28 buttons every time to get your max dps if you *had* to press them, in the same order, every single fight. It's banal.
These changes aren't pushing back to the dark ages of vanilla where combat was the only viable spec.
So far in ICC, it's the fucking Beast Mastery spec of rogues, so it's a little ridiculous to expect it to be dominant.
Combat daggers wasn't the only viable spec, it absolutely smashed every other *class* into the dirt. Ah, the good old days
As for it being the BM of rogues, uh, what rogue spec ISN'T a 2-3 button spec? It's not like rogues have even changed since vanilla wow.... remove backstab, insert mutilate, instead of clicking snd now you're clicking hfb. The rogue hasn't changed in 4 years aside from poisons lasting longer and not falling off in an instance.
I'm just saying, now it's harder to pick between combat and mutilate despite blizz telling us all at the panels that daggers would be 'teh awesomz' for rogues.
I like that people try to act like rogues are the ez mode dps class vs other classes. EVERY dps class is at most 3-4 buttons over and over (excepting maybe an aff lock). This game is about as deep as a mudpuddle.
Don't know about other specs but a good survival hunter rotation is like 6 things to watch. Not hard or spectacular or anything, but a lot more engaging that some DPS class/specs than some dps.
Sting BlA ExS StS AiS/MuS KiSh KiC
So 7 abilities I have to watch for every fight worth watching them for . (If a mob doesn't have 250,000 hp it's not worth me watching and I just spam the essentials) But on the other hand it's not a rotation either, its a priority list. Where whatever ability is highest on the priority list is used, petty much no matter what. And one ability has high enough priority (KiS) that it's worthwhile to interupt whatever else you are casting to cast it. I fucking hated hunter DPS in burning crusade, loving SurvHunter dps in Wrath.
Slowly leveling a rogue atm, going combat for leveling, not really sure how I feel about it yet. But it's just a "for fun" character, so don't really care. Also is Slow/Fast what I want for combat? At the moment i"m using an Heirloom Sword MH and Heirloom Dagger Offhand.
EWom on
Whether they find a life there or not, I think Jupiter should be called an enemy planet.
It's why I'm sad that rupture isn't part of the rotation anymore. At least it was one more button.
I agree with this in the sense that it gave you something else to watch, and made you feel more active.
Well, I can't really agree with the rupture being a good thing. If it was actually situational it would mean you had to actually pay attention or use a braincell to use it. But as it was, rupture was just one more button to push. Pushing another button really doesn't make the class any more deep or gameplay any more intuitive.
Now if we had say different *types* of attacks that we could only use under certain conditions, or something completely situational, that sort of thing, it would be something interesting gameplay wise. But another button to press, just for the sake of pressing another button is pretty meaningless. ie) if I only press 2 buttons ALL THE TIME rather than 3 buttons ALL THE TIME my dps is less. That's pretty weak.
It wouldn't matter if you had to press 2 buttons or 28 buttons every time to get your max dps if you *had* to press them, in the same order, every single fight. It's banal.
But it is not just pushing rupture, or adding one more button as you put it. It is actually the act of keeping another effect in the rotation while moving around and dealing with a fight. The difference between a good rogue and shit one is in the timing and anticipation. The more items in your rotation the more obvious it becomes who is decent and who isn't. Less complexity isn't the answer either way.
So 7 abilities I have to watch for every fight worth watching them for . (If a mob doesn't have 250,000 hp it's not worth me watching and I just spam the essentials) But on the other hand it's not a rotation either, its a priority list. Where whatever ability is highest on the priority list is used, petty much no matter what. And one ability has high enough priority (KiS) that it's worthwhile to interupt whatever else you are casting to cast it. I fucking hated hunter DPS in burning crusade, loving SurvHunter dps in Wrath.
Slowly leveling a rogue atm, going combat for leveling, not really sure how I feel about it yet. But it's just a "for fun" character, so don't really care. Also is Slow/Fast what I want for combat? At the moment i"m using an Heirloom Sword MH and Heirloom Dagger Offhand.
I'm quite familiar with the sv hunter 'rotation' (raided one all the way to the top of tier 9, then started on my rogue again). But I can't for the life of me figure out what "KiC" is in your list. Maybe I'm just having a brain fart.
But as far as the "every class is a xx button class" it was a generalization. But I feel it still stands. Even in the SV rotation 2 of the shots are instant dots, one is a long cooldown (RF), the others are just filler (AiS/MS or SS) and the rest just matters when the mob is 10% health or lower. In reality, you're spamming explosive shot and waiting for a lock and load proc.
If you want to get technical like that you can say it about a rogue too, if you want to name every attack you have to do (garrote, hfb, snd, envenom, rupture to reapp hfb, cold blood, etc.) but in reality, it's pretty much spamming mutilate and envenom. Combat would be even more 'buttons' because you have to worry about killing spree, adrenaline rush and blade flurry... doesn't really mean the class is complicated or interesting though.
as for the argument that the 'timing' of rupture helps separate the really bads from the goods.. Well, I'd think we wouldn't really be talking about people that can't rub two brain cells together to figure out if they should throw a 5 pt rupture when the mob has 10k health left. Being "good" or "bad" has nothing to do with how interesting or varied the gameplay is with a class. People that are that terrible would suck if the game did every attack for them automatically.
As far as leveling combat weapons.. If you're low level just go with whatever spec supports the best weapons you have. If you only have a good mh sword and your dagger is only suited for an off hand, go with that. Get used to that, because it will pretty much be the case even when you're raiding tier 10 and beyond
Honestly, what surprised me was that Rogues -- the class that premiered the Combo point system -- never got one of the new proc-based "combos" that I'm pretty sure like every single other Class/spec has at this point. My Warrior gets free Slams, Hunters get to Lock 'n Load, Mages get instant Pyroblasts, and Rogues get ... to stack Combo points and use a finisher. I mean, did they think that Rogue rotations were already too 'dense' to incorporate something like this? It seems like it'd be a no-brainer to introduce one of these Get Proc, Push Button effects somewhere or maybe into multiple trees but I just get the impression they didn't want to fiddle with what they perceived as not being broken. Rogues seem willing to lie down and accept a boring or banal class as long as they are top of the roost in DPS -- talking about the playerbase at large, I mean, like the shits who post on the official forums and yadda yadda. Hopefully the talent revisions in 4.0 see us well, yeah.
Nonsense, it's a perfectly viable alternative to Thunderclap. Just have the Rogue tank until Riposte pops; Parrying is higher in the avoidance queue than Dodge and your Evasion should last long enough for at least one to appear. :rotate:
I'm sure there's someone else that brings the attack speed debuff though so it's a moot point. I just wanted an excuse to make a comment that gave me an excuse to use :rotate:.
Got Nighttime from HFoS, combined it with my Rondel from HToC and tried Combat (I had no faster off-hand/sword). No matter how many times I try Combat, I hate it... and this was no exception. It just isn't fun. I feel energy starved (I even stuck with Vigor and glyph of vigor), and although there are some decent crits, they don't compare to what I did as assassination (even without HfB because I'm cool like that).
I got two of the daggers from HFoS shortly after (the random BoP drop), the ring, the scorpion trinket, and something else... and went back to assassination (this time WITH HfB). Fuck yes. I'm pulling 3-3.5k (usually 2.7-2.8), loving it so hard.
I'm torn on spending Triumph emblems, though... I don't really like the Tier 9 helm/gloves compared to what I have, as they are either downgrades or sidegrades that aren't really worth it. The triumph gear is decent, I guess... and I'd likely just go that route.
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Anyone else find it hilarious that they nerf assas when they do nothing but single target dps, meanwhile unholy dks, ferals, etc. do metric shit-tons more aoe dps. Yet they single target dps within 5% of the single-target only dps'er that got the nerf? /thumbsup
I just don't like the feeling that I could be doing better. My paladin does literally twice the dps on trash. Though paladin AoE got buffed so much...
10k dps on Mal'ganis was fun.
You're seriously blowing my mind here. Ferals do more aoe dps than the buffed and awesome-in-my-experience fan of knives?
There is sense to the idea that single-target dps matters much more than aoe dps, and that the former should be the most carefully watched and tweaked.
Besides trying playing as Arms, you have Bladestorm once in a while otherwise your AOE is Cleave and Sweeping strikes.
Honestly, I think I'm gonna do that. Mut/prep is so much fun in pvp, but I don't really need to stick with daggers for pve.
You're kidding right? Have you played a mutilate rogue or used Fok in the last couple months? Fok has been nerfed to hell, not to mention go try to aoe as mutilate with no AR from combat. Let me know how that goes. Assas is the single target dps tree.
As far as Forty's point asking what fights are advantageous to aoe specs. You're reinforcing the thought behind the buff to mutilate in the first place. Mutilate was buffed because everyone was combat, because combat was neck and neck with mutilate AND could do aoe and situational dps while mute offered no multi target dps. Now they're nerfing mutilate despite having no aoe or situation dps benefits.
So, once gear levels are caught up later in the instance, what's the point of being mutilate now? Other than screwing yourself out of burst and multi-target fights. Which admittedly so far there have not been many multi friendly fights in ICC with the exceptions of airship and deathwhisper. But even if 1/3 of the fights are multi friendly, being mutilate basically screws you out of that dps when the opportunity presents itself vs. being maybe 2% lower dps single target but having much more flexibility. Which was supposed to be the reason for the buff to mutilate in the first place, again.
This is a knee jerk nerf, which really does nothing except lower overall raid dps, so that the hybrids that have been on top for so long can feel better about themselves again.
Edit: And now I remember the other piece of information that led me to believe they were awesome at it. I thought focused attacks gave back energy for every single crit on one use of FoK.
If they're assassination, they have not been doing aoe damage of any significance in months. Now if they were combat and were blade flurrying and then popping adrenaline and Fok'ing, that's a totally different matter. It also has absolutely nothing to do with assas or the nerf to it.
saw your edit, yeah those days are long gone.
I think you're confusing obtuseness for meaningful dialogue or input. Stop that.
Yes, mutilate is at a significant disadvantage in multiple target, fast switching fights. It's just as "gimped" as the 2pc tier 10 divine storm spamming pally, or the poor shred/rip spamming druid, or the unholy dk during a single target fight.
What multiple targets are you quickly switching between on Gunship? During freeze you hop over and kill a single, somewhat high health target. Otherwise you can be in a gun where it doesn't matter what class you are. Or, if for some reason they've got you helping with the portal adds, you just tricks the tank and hit FoK. They're not particularly difficult, and FoK spam does just fine.
Anyway, tons of specs are at a disadvantage in multiple target, fast switching fights, so oh noes, poor assassination. It will be fine. Spec it because you like to play the spec and because it will still be good. These changes aren't pushing back to the dark ages of vanilla where combat was the only viable spec.
So far in ICC, it's the fucking Beast Mastery spec of rogues, so it's a little ridiculous to expect it to be dominant.
edit: Re: Hunger for Blood. Didn't realize I was replying to a botp and not the newest post.
Paladins, Druids, Death Knights and Shamans are all pretty sick right now, with the right gear and a decent player behind the keyboard.
Rogues have been a one-trick pony since day one.
We do Melee DPS. And that's it.
On single targets, theoretically, the only thing that should compare to a rogue, is a Hunter, as the ranged counterpart, being that a Hunter is primarily a one-trick pony also, being Ranged DPS.
Mages and Warlocks, also being non-hybrid ranged DPS, have added utility with pets, buffs and other raid tools, along with AoE damage capability.
Sadly, the sqeakiest wheel gets oiled first, and Rogues have ever been an undertone in the Din beneath rabid Hybrids and, in general, more vocal members of the other classes.
At some point during the beginning of WotLK, Rogues became the "How can we tweak overall Raid DPS?" class, and we have both had moments to rejoice and weep during the highs and lows.
We all knew the poison damage boost was going to be a short-lived thing, and we were right.
Most of us will go back to our Combat specs, and the upside to that is we'll have a use for that Battered Hilt, and regret the ones we AH'd =P
Battletag: Kain#1658
Rogues are in this sort of weird position. On the one hand people bitch when we're top DPS on standstill single target fights, but I can't think of many other classes that should take that spot. We offer almost no raid utility and are squishy melee damage - if it is acceptable for any pure damage class to put out good damage, it's Rogue.
Having already raided this week feeling the nerf, it's not the end of the world either. It really does amount to about an 8-10% total DPS loss, but I'm still not having much trouble staying at the top of my raid damage and putting out what I think are reasonable numbers for my gear.
The most irritating thing to me is how shameless the nerf is, it really does continue the long line of "Let's keep this poorly-designed 51 pt talent in there just so we have a literal way to adjust a Rogue's damage to a certain percent". Hunger for Blood needs a fucking revamp.
I'm sure HFB will get a revamp in Cataclysm. Blizzard has said they're still not quite happy with its implementation. Expecting a talent to be redone before 4.0 is probably unrealistic at this point.
Battletag: Kain#1658
unless you mean Enhancement shamans and said shamans are pulling beastly numbers, you can take them off the list. Shammies are doing absolutely terribly right now.
Fix'd !
Battletag: Kain#1658
back to rogues, it's a fucking shame they can't let us have anything fun, but at the same time, they ARE going in the right direction in terms of taking HfB out of the picture. It's still a stupid fucking mechanic, though. If they removed the bleed effect, I'd be the happiest motherfucker on earth right now.
Probably won't happen because blizzard like to be cunts, but meh.
Then they can fiddle with it's percent all day and I won't care because it's one less button I have to mash.
Battletag: Kain#1658
'Ehh, just raise/lower the percentage on hunger for blood and call it a day'
On a non crying note an Unsharpened Ice Razor finally dropped for me tonight, bye bye paper cutter never shall we meet again. I will get serker on it tomorrow and rape many a mob. I have only been 80 for a month or two pretty happy with how my rogue is progressing. Armory:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Galakrond&n=Ambi
Combat daggers wasn't the only viable spec, it absolutely smashed every other *class* into the dirt. Ah, the good old days
As for it being the BM of rogues, uh, what rogue spec ISN'T a 2-3 button spec? It's not like rogues have even changed since vanilla wow.... remove backstab, insert mutilate, instead of clicking snd now you're clicking hfb. The rogue hasn't changed in 4 years aside from poisons lasting longer and not falling off in an instance.
I'm just saying, now it's harder to pick between combat and mutilate despite blizz telling us all at the panels that daggers would be 'teh awesomz' for rogues.
I like that people try to act like rogues are the ez mode dps class vs other classes. EVERY dps class is at most 3-4 buttons over and over (excepting maybe an aff lock). This game is about as deep as a mudpuddle.
I agree with this in the sense that it gave you something else to watch, and made you feel more active.
Battletag: Kain#1658
Well, I can't really agree with the rupture being a good thing. If it was actually situational it would mean you had to actually pay attention or use a braincell to use it. But as it was, rupture was just one more button to push. Pushing another button really doesn't make the class any more deep or gameplay any more intuitive.
Now if we had say different *types* of attacks that we could only use under certain conditions, or something completely situational, that sort of thing, it would be something interesting gameplay wise. But another button to press, just for the sake of pressing another button is pretty meaningless. ie) if I only press 2 buttons ALL THE TIME rather than 3 buttons ALL THE TIME my dps is less. That's pretty weak.
It wouldn't matter if you had to press 2 buttons or 28 buttons every time to get your max dps if you *had* to press them, in the same order, every single fight. It's banal.
That would be ass because then you would have to keep rupture up if there is no warrior/feral druid around
Don't know about other specs but a good survival hunter rotation is like 6 things to watch. Not hard or spectacular or anything, but a lot more engaging that some DPS class/specs than some dps.
Sting BlA ExS StS AiS/MuS KiSh KiC
So 7 abilities I have to watch for every fight worth watching them for . (If a mob doesn't have 250,000 hp it's not worth me watching and I just spam the essentials) But on the other hand it's not a rotation either, its a priority list. Where whatever ability is highest on the priority list is used, petty much no matter what. And one ability has high enough priority (KiS) that it's worthwhile to interupt whatever else you are casting to cast it. I fucking hated hunter DPS in burning crusade, loving SurvHunter dps in Wrath.
Slowly leveling a rogue atm, going combat for leveling, not really sure how I feel about it yet. But it's just a "for fun" character, so don't really care. Also is Slow/Fast what I want for combat? At the moment i"m using an Heirloom Sword MH and Heirloom Dagger Offhand.
But it is not just pushing rupture, or adding one more button as you put it. It is actually the act of keeping another effect in the rotation while moving around and dealing with a fight. The difference between a good rogue and shit one is in the timing and anticipation. The more items in your rotation the more obvious it becomes who is decent and who isn't. Less complexity isn't the answer either way.
I'm quite familiar with the sv hunter 'rotation' (raided one all the way to the top of tier 9, then started on my rogue again). But I can't for the life of me figure out what "KiC" is in your list. Maybe I'm just having a brain fart.
But as far as the "every class is a xx button class" it was a generalization. But I feel it still stands. Even in the SV rotation 2 of the shots are instant dots, one is a long cooldown (RF), the others are just filler (AiS/MS or SS) and the rest just matters when the mob is 10% health or lower. In reality, you're spamming explosive shot and waiting for a lock and load proc.
If you want to get technical like that you can say it about a rogue too, if you want to name every attack you have to do (garrote, hfb, snd, envenom, rupture to reapp hfb, cold blood, etc.) but in reality, it's pretty much spamming mutilate and envenom. Combat would be even more 'buttons' because you have to worry about killing spree, adrenaline rush and blade flurry... doesn't really mean the class is complicated or interesting though.
as for the argument that the 'timing' of rupture helps separate the really bads from the goods.. Well, I'd think we wouldn't really be talking about people that can't rub two brain cells together to figure out if they should throw a 5 pt rupture when the mob has 10k health left. Being "good" or "bad" has nothing to do with how interesting or varied the gameplay is with a class. People that are that terrible would suck if the game did every attack for them automatically.
As far as leveling combat weapons.. If you're low level just go with whatever spec supports the best weapons you have. If you only have a good mh sword and your dagger is only suited for an off hand, go with that. Get used to that, because it will pretty much be the case even when you're raiding tier 10 and beyond
Ok, ok, that was a terrible joke.
I'm sure there's someone else that brings the attack speed debuff though so it's a moot point. I just wanted an excuse to make a comment that gave me an excuse to use :rotate:.
Got Nighttime from HFoS, combined it with my Rondel from HToC and tried Combat (I had no faster off-hand/sword). No matter how many times I try Combat, I hate it... and this was no exception. It just isn't fun. I feel energy starved (I even stuck with Vigor and glyph of vigor), and although there are some decent crits, they don't compare to what I did as assassination (even without HfB because I'm cool like that).
I got two of the daggers from HFoS shortly after (the random BoP drop), the ring, the scorpion trinket, and something else... and went back to assassination (this time WITH HfB). Fuck yes. I'm pulling 3-3.5k (usually 2.7-2.8), loving it so hard.
I'm torn on spending Triumph emblems, though... I don't really like the Tier 9 helm/gloves compared to what I have, as they are either downgrades or sidegrades that aren't really worth it. The triumph gear is decent, I guess... and I'd likely just go that route.