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Modern Warfare 2: Patch 1.06 Tomorrow! (NSF56K)

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Posts

  • -SPI--SPI- Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Mechanical wrote: »
    -SPI- wrote: »
    You guys think IW will implement a local search option or some kind of solution to the "game full of aussies, but lone american joins and becomes host so everyone suddenly has red ping" problem? Or should I just forget about MW2?

    My two cents? Not a chance in hell.

    But Mr Bowling said that "people" were "looking into it". Surely they have their best men hard at work preparing a patch to fix the matchmaking system for international players as we speak.
    ...



    BWAHAHAHAHA, yeah right. Ah well, at least IW's suggestion to "wait and see" looks like it will save me $60. I'll give them a month after launch, then I'll stop paying attention or caring.

  • subediisubedii Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Mechanical wrote: »
    -SPI- wrote: »
    You guys think IW will implement a local search option or some kind of solution to the "game full of aussies, but lone american joins and becomes host so everyone suddenly has red ping" problem? Or should I just forget about MW2?

    My two cents? Not a chance in hell.

    Why not?

    Lack of dedicated servers (yes yes, you're just an entitled bitch, etc.) and forcing the game through matchmaking instead is something that's aggravated multiplayer for international players, more so than CoD4 because at least there there was an option where you'd largely be guaranteed a good ping.

    Personal guess is that if they don't actual give region specific searching, they're going to tweak the matchmaking code to make it less likely to give the hosting to people Stateside by default if all the rest of the players are based somewhere else. It shouldn't be difficult to work out which players are Australian from the IP for example. After that, just make sure to pick a suitable host that isn't an ocean or two over.

    Of course, given everything else surrounding the game here, it's not exactly a guess I'd want to cast in stone.

  • joshgotrojoshgotro Bloat much? Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Its all mental in HC, at least if you don't completely suck.

    None of those strategies work in plain old Core?

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  • iTunesIsEviliTunesIsEvil Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Goddamnit.

    We ran into some boosters in Domination. So fucking stupid.\

    I mean seriously how fucking terrible do you have to be where you have to get a friend onto the other team to fucking help you get a nuke over and over and over and fucking goddamn over?

    It's dumb as fuck.
    Was that how that happened? I was wondering how the fuck we saw 2 nukes in back-to-back games. Rabble. :x

    I had an okay evening last night until around 11:00. Then all the sudden I found myself going 6 & 16 or 5 & 13. Ugh.

    I'm having a love/hate affair with the FAL. I love gunning people down with it (2-3, maaaaaybe 4, rounds and guys drop), but I swear if someone's moving laterally I cannot hit them to save my life.

  • SheepSheep Registered User, __BANNED USERS
    edited December 2009
    Came across multiple javelin glitches last night.

    They got super pissy when I told them that people are being banned for that and when my entire party reported them for cheating.

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  • twmjrtwmjr Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    I love my silenced SPAS-12 in hardcore. I flanked and took out half the opposing team with it last night before they knew what was going on.

    XBL/Steam: twmjr
  • RericReric Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Just unlocked C4. Primarily play Domination so am instantly in love with it. Always a little sad though when I hear somebody is capturing the point and I don't get a kill when I blow the C4.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Venkman90 wrote: »
    Dangerous wrote: »
    I forgot how much I love the FAMAS. After unlocking the M16A4 I switched to using it almost exclusively. My friend who just prestiged and doesn't have many guns unlocked yet urged me to give FAMAS another try.

    On paper it looks just a tiny bit more accurate than the M16A4, but to me it feels like night and day. I can easily pick guys off from long range using the irons and a silencer now. Is there anyone else here who prefers FAMAS over M16A4?

    Yep

    I was using the M16 for ages, unlocked everything and had ignored the FAMAS, then I thought I should get some unlocks on it...

    With an ACOG (they are great now) and a Silencer it's the best mid range sniper weapon I have used, on Estate I went 24-3 with it.

    I'll have to try it again. I switched to the M16 and have stuck with it since, but it sometimes feels like it's not getting headshots when it should. I'm like 5 levels from prestiging, though, and I kind of want to make sure I pick up the M16 title before I go.

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  • GanluanGanluan Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Reric wrote: »
    Just unlocked C4. Primarily play Domination so am instantly in love with it. Always a little sad though when I hear somebody is capturing the point and I don't get a kill when I blow the C4.

    I think I love Tactical Insertion too much to try any of the other equipment.

  • Dr_KeenbeanDr_Keenbean Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    If you stay in 1 place for too long you WILL die, and by "too long" I mean as soon as the first guy you shot respawns he's going to throw a nade or 40MM straight up your ass if you stay where you were.

    Does this mean killcam is in hardcore?

    Not. Cool.

    PSN: Dr_Keenbean LIVE: Dr Keenbean
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  • iTunesIsEviliTunesIsEvil Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    If you stay in 1 place for too long you WILL die, and by "too long" I mean as soon as the first guy you shot respawns he's going to throw a nade or 40MM straight up your ass if you stay where you were.

    Does this mean killcam is in hardcore?

    Not. Cool.
    There are no killcams in hardcore, but if someone sees where they were shot from ... kablooey looey.

  • joshgotrojoshgotro Bloat much? Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    It's not.

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  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    I'd say that most of the time when I die in hardcore, I don't know exactly where I was shot from. If I knew where they were, I had a decent chance to kill them before they got me anyway.

    Hardcore is fun, but it's a bit too much of a campathon.

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  • RericReric Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Venkman90 wrote: »
    Dangerous wrote: »
    I forgot how much I love the FAMAS. After unlocking the M16A4 I switched to using it almost exclusively. My friend who just prestiged and doesn't have many guns unlocked yet urged me to give FAMAS another try.

    On paper it looks just a tiny bit more accurate than the M16A4, but to me it feels like night and day. I can easily pick guys off from long range using the irons and a silencer now. Is there anyone else here who prefers FAMAS over M16A4?

    Yep

    I was using the M16 for ages, unlocked everything and had ignored the FAMAS, then I thought I should get some unlocks on it...

    With an ACOG (they are great now) and a Silencer it's the best mid range sniper weapon I have used, on Estate I went 24-3 with it.

    I'll have to try it again. I switched to the M16 and have stuck with it since, but it sometimes feels like it's not getting headshots when it should. I'm like 5 levels from prestiging, though, and I kind of want to make sure I pick up the M16 title before I go.

    What exactly stays with you when you prestige? Do you keep your kills/headshots with guns? I know you have to level back up to get them but for example if once I level up to have the magnum again do I have to go through the grind to unlock akimbo again or will I automatically have it?

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • HawkHawk Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    So close last night, was 25 and 1 before dying a 2nd time. I was 1 away from getting the Nuke (using Hardline)...it's coming, can't wait to unleash it...

  • iTunesIsEviliTunesIsEvil Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Reric wrote: »
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Venkman90 wrote: »
    Dangerous wrote: »
    I forgot how much I love the FAMAS. After unlocking the M16A4 I switched to using it almost exclusively. My friend who just prestiged and doesn't have many guns unlocked yet urged me to give FAMAS another try.

    On paper it looks just a tiny bit more accurate than the M16A4, but to me it feels like night and day. I can easily pick guys off from long range using the irons and a silencer now. Is there anyone else here who prefers FAMAS over M16A4?

    Yep

    I was using the M16 for ages, unlocked everything and had ignored the FAMAS, then I thought I should get some unlocks on it...

    With an ACOG (they are great now) and a Silencer it's the best mid range sniper weapon I have used, on Estate I went 24-3 with it.

    I'll have to try it again. I switched to the M16 and have stuck with it since, but it sometimes feels like it's not getting headshots when it should. I'm like 5 levels from prestiging, though, and I kind of want to make sure I pick up the M16 title before I go.

    What exactly stays with you when you prestige? Do you keep your kills/headshots with guns? I know you have to level back up to get them but for example if once I level up to have the magnum again do I have to go through the grind to unlock akimbo again or will I automatically have it?
    Your kills and headshots with weapons reset as far as I can tell. I've had to go back through unlocking everything and each challenge has shown "0/bignumber". You basically keep titles and emblems and you start over. I think.

  • musanmanmusanman Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Reric wrote: »
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Venkman90 wrote: »
    Dangerous wrote: »
    I forgot how much I love the FAMAS. After unlocking the M16A4 I switched to using it almost exclusively. My friend who just prestiged and doesn't have many guns unlocked yet urged me to give FAMAS another try.

    On paper it looks just a tiny bit more accurate than the M16A4, but to me it feels like night and day. I can easily pick guys off from long range using the irons and a silencer now. Is there anyone else here who prefers FAMAS over M16A4?

    Yep

    I was using the M16 for ages, unlocked everything and had ignored the FAMAS, then I thought I should get some unlocks on it...

    With an ACOG (they are great now) and a Silencer it's the best mid range sniper weapon I have used, on Estate I went 24-3 with it.

    I'll have to try it again. I switched to the M16 and have stuck with it since, but it sometimes feels like it's not getting headshots when it should. I'm like 5 levels from prestiging, though, and I kind of want to make sure I pick up the M16 title before I go.

    What exactly stays with you when you prestige? Do you keep your kills/headshots with guns? I know you have to level back up to get them but for example if once I level up to have the magnum again do I have to go through the grind to unlock akimbo again or will I automatically have it?
    Your kills and headshots with weapons reset as far as I can tell. I've had to go back through unlocking everything and each challenge has shown "0/bignumber". You basically keep titles and emblems and you start over. I think.

    You keep titles/embles/accolades and that is it. All of your challenges reset, and you get a new "prestige" challenge tag in the barracks. That has some stuff like get a bunch of silenced weapon or knife kills. Each weapon also has prestige weapon challenges in addition to the normal challenges, so when I hit 500 kills with a gun I get 10k for the m4, and 10k for the prestige version of the challenge. These prestige ones also give you additional titles you couldn't get unless you prestige.

    I don't think I'm going to prestige again, but I'm glad I did it once...but I am a whore so who knows...

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  • TTODewbackTTODewback Pollen Attracting Sinus King AlabamaRegistered User regular
    edited December 2009
    I found that if I use an ACOG with the FAMAS, I have to aim high to get a headshot. Like a tic below the crosshair. And on ..the M16 I think it was, I had to aim to the right a little bit as well. Dead on crosshair never hits from a distance for me.

  • DarksierDarksier Registered User
    edited December 2009
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    I'd say that most of the time when I die in hardcore, I don't know exactly where I was shot from. If I knew where they were, I had a decent chance to kill them before they got me anyway.

    Hardcore is fun, but it's a bit too much of a campathon.

    Should try the Hardcore HQ Pro. The HQ objectives diminish the benefits of camping as opposed to say in TDM.

  • joshgotrojoshgotro Bloat much? Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Reric wrote: »
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Venkman90 wrote: »
    Dangerous wrote: »
    I forgot how much I love the FAMAS. After unlocking the M16A4 I switched to using it almost exclusively. My friend who just prestiged and doesn't have many guns unlocked yet urged me to give FAMAS another try.

    On paper it looks just a tiny bit more accurate than the M16A4, but to me it feels like night and day. I can easily pick guys off from long range using the irons and a silencer now. Is there anyone else here who prefers FAMAS over M16A4?

    Yep

    I was using the M16 for ages, unlocked everything and had ignored the FAMAS, then I thought I should get some unlocks on it...

    With an ACOG (they are great now) and a Silencer it's the best mid range sniper weapon I have used, on Estate I went 24-3 with it.

    I'll have to try it again. I switched to the M16 and have stuck with it since, but it sometimes feels like it's not getting headshots when it should. I'm like 5 levels from prestiging, though, and I kind of want to make sure I pick up the M16 title before I go.

    What exactly stays with you when you prestige? Do you keep your kills/headshots with guns? I know you have to level back up to get them but for example if once I level up to have the magnum again do I have to go through the grind to unlock akimbo again or will I automatically have it?
    Your kills and headshots with weapons reset as far as I can tell. I've had to go back through unlocking everything and each challenge has shown "0/bignumber". You basically keep titles and emblems and you start over. I think.

    The Prestige challenges stay though.

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  • DisrupterDisrupter Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    I dont understand the appeal of hardcore...people die super fast in normal...core.

    Plus, doesnt making everyone die super quick by every gun really ruin the balance between weapons? Why wouldnt I use a shotgun when I dont have to aim and can just kill people even easier from even further away?

    Just seems like a lot of the balance in weapons had to do with acuracy vs damage and id assume that in hardcore theres less of a reason to pick the damage weapons.

    Does stopping power even make sense as a perk in hardcore?

    Or am I imagining this hardcore mode all wrong? I just know I was playing one match and some guy on my team would not stop bitching about how he cant believe they werent playing hardcore and how nothing killed anyone. And how he was never not playing hardcore again. This confused me because I very seldomly go "man, how did that guy not die?"

    Sometimes yes, and thats usually when I spray some guy as they run by, so its probably my fault anyway.

    616610-1.png
  • AnalrapistAnalrapist Registered User
    edited December 2009
    Guuuuuuh, last night had it's moments of javeline glitches, which did nothing for the guy using them because we just noob tubed him into oblivion. He eventually quit.

    There was one guy though using the double 1800 or whatever they're called, those old school shotguns who was fucking us over. The range on those is greater than any shotgun I think, he blasting off rooftops in Favela from ground level.

    And what's with guys with horrible scores talking shit when they're team wins because one other guy on their team did well? It's hilarious.

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  • twmjrtwmjr Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Disrupter wrote: »
    I dont understand the appeal of hardcore...people die super fast in normal...core.

    For me, it allows me to play more of a type of game I enjoy. I feel like I need Stopping Power in regular mode; in hardcore mode I can run with Marathon, Cold Blooded & Ninja, with two silenced weapons and have a good time moving around silently causing havoc.

    I enjoy the slower pace of hardcore (and as someone said above, Hardcore HQ is just about right for me in terms of camping/objectives). It almost feels like the old Rainbow Six Rogue Spear/Raven Shield days, which were (despite all their faults) two of my favorite multiplayer experiences ever.

    XBL/Steam: twmjr
  • EndomaticEndomatic Registered User
    edited December 2009
    I'm finding HC to be much more infested with cheaters than Core.

    No killcams.

    Javelin glitching, and care package running might be annoying, but it isn't even close to being on the level of wallhacking and aimbotting. Both of which are WILDLY rampant in numbers that don't even compare to Jav glitchers in my experience. I haven't seen any boosters yet thankfully. That would be very annoying indeed.

  • DarksierDarksier Registered User
    edited December 2009
    I never use stopping power in hardcore, there's just no point to it. Instead the slot usually goes to Cold-Blooded. I think the increased lethality of the guns actually evens the playing field with the weaponry. It's more about getting landing your shots in first. I can't tell how many killcams I've watched in normal where the guy just eats up my ACR rounds and then proceeds to kill me with a blast of his 19th century shotties. Another nice part is the lack of a hud and the danger of friendly fire. It makes for real tense situations. I'd suggest trying it out, though you may want to do an objective based hardcore game. TDM sometimes devolves into camping matches...sometimes.

  • AnalrapistAnalrapist Registered User
    edited December 2009
    I prefer Hardcore, but my friends refuse to play anything other than TDM (which I also like).
    I like hardcore because a Silenced AR actually causes damage at range.

    CheeseSticks15.png
  • nolifekingnolifeking Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Yeah, i just ran into a cheater in HC, and the weirdest thing happened.

    After the game, people that were on his team but not cheating were defending, wondering why we were getting upset that he ruined the game. I mean, I can just leave, and did, but why would you think that it is ok to hack?

    Also, what is the fun in it? I mean, you aren't even playing the game, you are just watching your screen jerk around as people die. Why does anyone want to do this?

    Steam - nolifeking
  • wonderpugwonderpug Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Does all hell break loose teamkill-wise in hardcore when AC-130s and Chopper Gunners come out or are most people fairly good about watching for the flashing teammate indicators?

  • RocketSauceRocketSauce Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    TTODewback wrote: »
    I found that if I use an ACOG with the FAMAS, I have to aim high to get a headshot. Like a tic below the crosshair. And on ..the M16 I think it was, I had to aim to the right a little bit as well. Dead on crosshair never hits from a distance for me.

    Welcome to optics

  • TTODewbackTTODewback Pollen Attracting Sinus King AlabamaRegistered User regular
    edited December 2009
    It usually doesnt on the PC.
    The main problem is that if you're using Cold Blooded, you don't show up on your own team's little thing. So if you're flanking an enemy you're likely to be taken out along with them when it comes to chopper gunner/ac130.

    Even the worst of players, I find only usually get one or two teamkills doing it.

  • TheUnsane1TheUnsane1 Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    I still need to try HC but I have a feeling its not for me. I never like 1 shot kill game types in fps, melee close range shotties head shots and explosions are ok for 1 shots, but stuff like 2 shots to the body annoys me.

    But who knows I generally don't like fps with loadouts or realistic level design and I like this game so far.

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  • subediisubedii Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    nolifeking wrote: »
    Yeah, i just ran into a cheater in HC, and the weirdest thing happened.

    After the game, people that were on his team but not cheating were defending, wondering why we were getting upset that he ruined the game. I mean, I can just leave, and did, but why would you think that it is ok to hack?

    Also, what is the fun in it? I mean, you aren't even playing the game, you are just watching your screen jerk around as people die. Why does anyone want to do this?

    You really don't understand the appeal of beating people easily? And maybe rubbing their noses in it afterwards?

    You're pretty much asking why griefing happens. Some people are just jerks, and they enjoy irritating other players. The usual refrain is along the lines of "OLOL Liten up its justa GAME!", and similar mantras.

  • MechanicalMechanical Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    I love C4. I hate the way it's setup now. I swear I'm the only person in the world that preferred the detonator to the shortcut.

    3DS: 2809-9292-5994
  • nolifekingnolifeking Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    subedii wrote: »
    nolifeking wrote: »
    Yeah, i just ran into a cheater in HC, and the weirdest thing happened.

    After the game, people that were on his team but not cheating were defending, wondering why we were getting upset that he ruined the game. I mean, I can just leave, and did, but why would you think that it is ok to hack?

    Also, what is the fun in it? I mean, you aren't even playing the game, you are just watching your screen jerk around as people die. Why does anyone want to do this?

    You really don't understand the appeal of beating people easily? And maybe rubbing their noses in it afterwards?

    You're pretty much asking why griefing happens. Some people are just jerks, and they enjoy irritating other players. The usual refrain is along the lines of "OLOL Liten up its justa GAME!", and similar mantras.

    Yeah, that is basically what he said, but the thing is, he didn't beat me. The program he paid for did. Does he get a sense of accomplishment from that?

    I know there are people who just want to be jerks, but a lot of griefing in games is things like spawn camping, which is also stupid, but at least within the construct of the game.

    Steam - nolifeking
  • subediisubedii Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    nolifeking wrote: »
    subedii wrote: »
    nolifeking wrote: »
    Yeah, i just ran into a cheater in HC, and the weirdest thing happened.

    After the game, people that were on his team but not cheating were defending, wondering why we were getting upset that he ruined the game. I mean, I can just leave, and did, but why would you think that it is ok to hack?

    Also, what is the fun in it? I mean, you aren't even playing the game, you are just watching your screen jerk around as people die. Why does anyone want to do this?

    You really don't understand the appeal of beating people easily? And maybe rubbing their noses in it afterwards?

    You're pretty much asking why griefing happens. Some people are just jerks, and they enjoy irritating other players. The usual refrain is along the lines of "OLOL Liten up its justa GAME!", and similar mantras.

    Yeah, that is basically what he said, but the thing is, he didn't beat me. The program he paid for did. Does he get a sense of accomplishment from that?

    I know there are people who just want to be jerks, but a lot of griefing in games is things like spawn camping, which is also stupid, but at least within the construct of the game.

    The sense of accomplishment isn't from winning, it comes from knowing that you screwed up someone's fun and made them angry at you. The point is to get a rise out of someone, that's how they enjoy the game. And often times, they'll very literally state it as such, that this is their way of enjoying the game, and it's not up to YOU to tell them how to have fun.

    At which point they point and laugh and say you're being pithy for being upset over a little game. They're in a position to laugh at you, but personal experience is that they rarely react well to losing themselves.

    EDIT:

    Note: I'm mainly talking about griefing here, and cheating as a means of griefing. Most cheaters probably do just cheat because they want to win, and don't like losing.

  • MadpandaMadpanda Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    I picked this up for 360 last night and pretty much played it until I had to sleep. Few questions

    With the Copycat death perk, and I guess for found weapons also. When one of these allows me weapons I haven't unlocked yet. Do i actually make progress on the challenges for these weapons?

    I got the care package kill streak and somehow got a Pave low out of it. When I used it a couple of people on my team started whining for some reason "booo" etc. I used it on an open map, Afghan i think, and I had +100's popping up everywhere. Is there some kind of etiquette to using this that I haven't learned yet? I.e only let people with X perk use it, or only use it if we are far behind etc.

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  • HerothHeroth Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Madpanda wrote: »
    I picked this up for 360 last night and pretty much played it until I had to sleep. Few questions

    With the Copycat death perk, and I guess for found weapons also. When one of these allows me weapons I haven't unlocked yet. Do i actually make progress on the challenges for these weapons?

    I got the care package kill streak and somehow got a Pave low out of it. When I used it a couple of people on my team started whining for some reason "booo" etc. I used it on an open map, Afghan i think, and I had +100's popping up everywhere. Is there some kind of etiquette to using this that I haven't learned yet? I.e only let people with X perk use it, or only use it if we are far behind etc.

    No, they are stupid... pop that shit if you've got it.

    Unless the other side has a harrier up which will shoot down heli's i believe...

    heroth-s.png
  • acidlacedpenguinacidlacedpenguin Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    nope, you don't make progress on anything unless you have it unlocked.

    Those people on your team were probably assjacks because there is no etiquette to using shit, use it whenever you want.

    My only suggestion that if someone has just put a UAV up, wait until it's atleast half over before you put your own up.

    Same thing goes for AC130/Chopper gunner, it would be really silly to have more than one going at the same time because it means less targets for each of you.

    with that said, if the game is only a few kills away from over, spam all of your kill streaks just to get the few points from them.

    GT: Acidboogie PSNid: AcidLacedPenguiN
  • underdonkunderdonk __BANNED USERS
    edited December 2009
    Heroth wrote: »
    Madpanda wrote: »
    I picked this up for 360 last night and pretty much played it until I had to sleep. Few questions

    With the Copycat death perk, and I guess for found weapons also. When one of these allows me weapons I haven't unlocked yet. Do i actually make progress on the challenges for these weapons?

    I got the care package kill streak and somehow got a Pave low out of it. When I used it a couple of people on my team started whining for some reason "booo" etc. I used it on an open map, Afghan i think, and I had +100's popping up everywhere. Is there some kind of etiquette to using this that I haven't learned yet? I.e only let people with X perk use it, or only use it if we are far behind etc.

    No, they are stupid... pop that shit if you've got it.

    Unless the other side has a harrier up which will shoot down heli's i believe...

    Indeed. My guess is that they were upset about you "stealing their kills". I love to see that giant green beast on the radar raping the enemy team and bring it in whenever I have it. Interesting question about making progress on not-yet-unlocked weapons.

    Back in the day, bucko, we just had an A and a B button... and we liked it.
  • PikaPuffPikaPuff Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    depends on the mode and what you're doing for UAVs. I suppose for hardcore you want to never overlap UAVs since you care more about having the radar up in the first place. In non-HC more UAVs help because more UAVs = more pings per second so there's no problem with having 10 UAVs up at once because then the radar would almost be real time.
    Hardcore is the only way to play MW2
    No, I think there's other ways to play. Actually I believe there's even a list full of other ways to play.

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