Santa Claus: Do/Should you let your kids believe in him?

Scalfin

Fubear wrote: »

saint2e wrote: »

• You're lying to your kids

Lying is ingrained in our culture. In every culture. This borders on a white lie. It's harmless and when your kid is unable to partake in the festivities because you had to fuck it all up for him, pat yourself on the back. Real. Hard.

saint2e wrote: »

• You're using their sense of wonderment as a means to control them (Be good, or Santa won't bring you presents)

That's why I don't go to church. Because they took that lie and stretched it way too fucking thin.

If you want kids to give you results (good grades, hard work, etc.), you essentially are going to have to bribe them.

Go ahead, explain to your 8-year-old son why he should finish his book-reports early and do his math as soon as he gets home because a good education will be its own reward when you're in your mid-twenties. Considering that most kids probably think the next year is an eternity by itself, the idea of 20 eternities is very graspable, you twit.

Knowing how to move from that to encouraging them to do the work for its own sake is probably the secret of good parenting.

saint2e wrote: »

• Materialism is encouraged at a young age

Materialism is encouraged at every goddamn age. Have you ever seen that goddamn commercial for Life Alert? How is that not taking advantage of our natural fear of death, moreso, in fact, because it's marketed to people right around the corner from the great beyond?

I am just going to be measured in the kind of crap my kids will be exposed to. I'll try to put it in proper perspective.

On the other hand, why do you feel the need to lie to your child? Jews don't seem all that traumatized, despite never being told about the magic fatty. There are groups that feel that feel that other holidays shouldn't even be acknowledged, but there seems to be no lasting harm because our kids don't have the privilege of waiting in line to sit on the mall drunkard's lap. Using guilt and the internalization of grades as a measure of self worth might have their own flaws, but they at least link up to the issue in question. As for your last argument, most parents don't like commercials either.

zerg rush

The follow-up to saying Santa doesn't exist isn't to burn down the Christmas tree and then break a kid's presents in front of him. You just replace it with openness and truth. Tell the kid he gets presents because his parents love him, and they are the ones judging the behavior of the child.

On the one hand: Lying, religious manipulation, consumer whore.
On the other hand: Truth, merit based present earning, consumer whore.

I mean, no matter what the kid will want the presents, but 2 out of 3 ain't bad.

Eat it You Nasty Pig.

I think a large part of the myth of santa's "good list" is actually a result of parents wanting to dodge accountability for punishing their kid

Henroid

zerg rush wrote: »

The follow-up to saying Santa doesn't exist isn't to burn down the Christmas tree and then break a kid's presents in front of him. You just replace it with openness and truth. Tell the kid he gets presents because his parents love him, and they are the ones judging the behavior of the child.

On the one hand: Lying, religious manipulation, consumer whore.
On the other hand: Truth, merit based present earning, consumer whore.

I mean, no matter what the kid will want the presents, but 2 out of 3 ain't bad.

I've never had Santa Claus tied into religion. I realize he stems from it, but you're going to find a lot of kids - or parents for that matter - don't link Santa to Jesus. So "religious manipulation" is bullshit.

Ketar

Henroid wrote: »

zerg rush wrote: »

The follow-up to saying Santa doesn't exist isn't to burn down the Christmas tree and then break a kid's presents in front of him. You just replace it with openness and truth. Tell the kid he gets presents because his parents love him, and they are the ones judging the behavior of the child.

On the one hand: Lying, religious manipulation, consumer whore.
On the other hand: Truth, merit based present earning, consumer whore.

I mean, no matter what the kid will want the presents, but 2 out of 3 ain't bad.

I've never had Santa Claus tied into religion. I realize he stems from it, but you're going to find a lot of kids - or parents for that matter - don't link Santa to Jesus. So "religious manipulation" is bullshit.

zerg rush

Qingu wrote: »

FUCK Santa Claus.

I think in a lot of ways, Santa Claus is like training wheels for later belief in God.

He knows who is naughty and who is nice; he even keeps a list. Only the good kids are rewarded.

Santa Claus violates the laws of nature and physics, and his myths adherents can freely cook up any ad-hoc “logical” exception to validate arguments to his existence. i.e. “Santa Claus can visit every single child in a single 8-hour period because he has the power to bend time and space.” (Sort of like how there doesn’t have to be any evidence for God’s existence because he’s outside of space, time, and logic.)

The Santa Claus myth, like the God myth, often serves as a kind of “glue” that holds together social structures (“family gatherings wouldn’t be the same without Santa!”). It’s also, like Christianity, been totally co-opted by dominant political powers (in this case, corporate America).

Also look at the similarities between how Santa-believers and God-believers criticize unbelievers/atheists. We’re “grinches” who only want to push our viewpoints even if it ruins Christmas/makes religious people feel bad.

Also, the way the Santa Claus myth is wielded by society's power elite is similar to the way religion is wielded. I think the myth does real harm—not because kids are traumatized when they find out it’s BS, but rather because it supports and perpetuates America’s consumer-whore culture.

For many people, Christmas is just this compulsion to buy shit nobody needs for people who don’t actually want anything. It is the only thing that perpetuates these ridiculous markets of pointless cookware, ties, bad DVD’s, and other useless chachkee detritus of human industry. In fact, there are many businesses that lose money throughout the year except before Christmas, because the only people who buy their wares are people who are buying them as gifts for other people, out of a “religious” compulsion.

I think this commercial, consumer-driven culture has done real harm to our society in the past 50 years. And Christmas’ secular Santa mythology is really its driving force.

Santa is 'my first religion' that you teach toddlers and kids.

Henroid

Some people have some butthurt childhoods.

emnmnme

Henroid wrote: »

Some people have some butthurt childhoods.

Oh, those frisky uncles...

Henroid

On the "Be good or Santa won't bring you presents" thing - how many parents do you think actually follow through on this? Or give their children a lump of coal without the being of irony / humor?

Chances are, if a parent doesn't get their kids any gifts on account of the child being 'bad' for the year, the parents are assholes to begin with. It's not a failing of taking part in a tradition, it's a failing on the parents' part as people.

The only times I've never received gifts for Christmas were because of money issues in the household.

Phant

To play devils advocate here, I actually have a story of how the whole Santa Clause lie grievously affected someone in my family.

My paternal grandmother, who was raised by non-religious parents, ended up being so affected by finding out that Santa wasn't real that she, as far as I can tell, flung herself into the bosom of Christianity and embraced it with the dour vigor only a person of German ancestry could. She is, to this day, one of those people who patiently awaits death as the release from the living hell she apparently regards earthly life to be. Thankfully her children, my father and aunts, seem to have generally avoided this mindset.

Personally, I think American Christmas could use a touch of the Krampus.

Scalfin

Henroid wrote: »

On the "Be good or Santa won't bring you presents" thing - how many parents do you think actually follow through on this? Or give their children a lump of coal without the being of irony / humor?

Chances are, if a parent doesn't get their kids any gifts on account of the child being 'bad' for the year, the parents are assholes to begin with. It's not a failing of taking part in a tradition, it's a failing on the parents' part as people.

The only times I've never received gifts for Christmas were because of money issues in the household.

And look how you ended up.

Henroid

Scalfin wrote: »

Henroid wrote: »

On the "Be good or Santa won't bring you presents" thing - how many parents do you think actually follow through on this? Or give their children a lump of coal without the being of irony / humor?

Chances are, if a parent doesn't get their kids any gifts on account of the child being 'bad' for the year, the parents are assholes to begin with. It's not a failing of taking part in a tradition, it's a failing on the parents' part as people.

The only times I've never received gifts for Christmas were because of money issues in the household.

And look how you ended up.

Yeah, poor and unemployed!

yalborap

Henroid wrote: »

Scalfin wrote: »

Henroid wrote: »

On the "Be good or Santa won't bring you presents" thing - how many parents do you think actually follow through on this? Or give their children a lump of coal without the being of irony / humor?

Chances are, if a parent doesn't get their kids any gifts on account of the child being 'bad' for the year, the parents are assholes to begin with. It's not a failing of taking part in a tradition, it's a failing on the parents' part as people.

The only times I've never received gifts for Christmas were because of money issues in the household.

And look how you ended up.

Yeah, poor and unemployed!

See what happens when you believe in a handout from the jolly red man?! SEE WHAT HAPPENS?!

Njósnavélin

Of course my dumbass didn't figure out the whole Santa thing wasn't real until 4th grade. No kid before that point ever told me that Santa was some lie reinforced by my parents. They just gave me bullshit arguments that nobody could travel the globe in 24 hours to deliver presents to millions of little children. I found out because my parents got in a pretty heated fight while wrapping presents at like 2am on Christmas Eve. I fell asleep while crying into my pillow. It was sad, but I doubt I had any psychological trauma. I later learned that a fat man dropping down through your chimney would be considered breaking and entering in most circles, even if he is giving you presents.

Scalfin

Njósnavélin wrote: »

Of course my dumbass didn't figure out the whole Santa thing wasn't real until 4th grade. No kid before that point ever told me that Santa was some lie reinforced by my parents. They just gave me bullshit arguments that nobody could travel the globe in 24 hours to deliver presents to millions of little children. I found out because my parents got in a pretty heated fight while wrapping presents at like 2am on Christmas Eve. I fell asleep while crying into my pillow. It was sad, but I doubt I had any psychological trauma. I later learned that a fat man dropping down through your chimney would be considered breaking and entering in most circles, even if he is giving you presents.

And should we even start on the significance of a man with all that facial hair wanting children to sit in his lap.

Njósnavélin

Scalfin wrote: »

And should we even start on the significance of a man with all that facial hair wanting children to sit in his lap.

Don't forget about that fact that while sitting on his lap, a small child must then inform this Santa poser of whether they were naughty or nice. uhhhh? seriously, who comes up with this stuff.

DarkDragoon

It's kind of funny that dinosaurs got brought up earlier on, considering the stuff about them that we were brought up with and kids are probably learning about now.

I'm sure you all remember how awesome T-Rexes were because they were the fucking KINGS of the dinosaur realm that all dinosaurs fell pray to, or how Velociraptors were the most perfect killing machines. I don't think any of our worlds were ruined upon finding out that rapters are a far cry from what Jurassic Park told us they were, or that T-Rex's were more likely lame scavengers that just fed off of the kills that other, more capable, dinosaurs made.

I'm going to tell my kids about Santa. I'm also going to tell them the same stories about the Wampus Cat in the attic that my grandfather told me when I was a kid. Yeah, they're silly stories, but it's kind of fun to wonder about them as a kid, ask questions, and then try to figure the truth out.

Sure, the real world is a fantastic place that's full of amazing things. It's also full of wondrous things that are still yet to be discovered. As long as they can separate reality from fiction, and kids are a lot better at it than given credit for, I don't see anything wrong with giving them silly stories to fill in the sense of wondering about what's out there.

Vincent Grayson

My kids know Santa isn't real because I've made it abundantly clear to them.

But much like faeries and princesses and Batman, they like pretending, so they still act like he's real (and know not to ruin it for other kids)

Evander

Henroid wrote: »

Chances are, if a parent doesn't get their kids any gifts on account of the child being 'bad' for the year, the parents are assholes to begin with. It's not a failing of taking part in a tradition, it's a failing on the parents' part as people.

So giving your child a gift at the time that society insists that you must is a prerequisite to being a good parent?

Are you saying that my parents were shitty parents, on account of being Jewish?

Ketar

Evander wrote: »

Henroid wrote: »

Chances are, if a parent doesn't get their kids any gifts on account of the child being 'bad' for the year, the parents are assholes to begin with. It's not a failing of taking part in a tradition, it's a failing on the parents' part as people.

So giving your child a gift at the time that society insists that you must is a prerequisite to being a good parent?

Are you saying that my parents were shitty parents, on account of being Jewish?

Did your parents first build up your expectations of receiving gifts at the time that society insists you must? Did they instill in you the notion that you had to be good, because if you weren't you wouldn't get those presents at that time? Did you and your parents take part in the tradition referred to?

No?

Then that would be completely different from the kind of parents Henroid is talking about, wouldn't it...

Henroid

Evander wrote: »

Henroid wrote: »

Chances are, if a parent doesn't get their kids any gifts on account of the child being 'bad' for the year, the parents are assholes to begin with. It's not a failing of taking part in a tradition, it's a failing on the parents' part as people.

So giving your child a gift at the time that society insists that you must is a prerequisite to being a good parent?

Are you saying that my parents were shitty parents, on account of being Jewish?

Believe it or not Evander, not everything has to be an attack on the Jewish faith or even be about it.

You can take the stance of "OH SOCIETY" but the fact is that Christmas is a holiday, religion standing or not.

Edit - Which isn't to say you have to participate in it. What I mean to say is gift giving is a part of the holiday, not a pre-requisite to being a good parent. Seriously dude.

Toxic Toys

My daughter just asked me how Santa is going to get into our home. I said the door. Then she asked how is he going to get in if the door are locked. I looked at her and said, "Santa is magic just like Harry Potter." She gave me an odd little look and dropped it.

She knows that most books and movies are make-believe. So I just told her Santa is not real, but gave her an out if she still wants to believe.

Santa was a fun little game my parents played with me every Christmas and now I play it with my kid. Believing in Santa or not is a personal choice, really. I don't think it's a good or bad thing, depending on how you raise your kid.