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Bioware: Jrpg's are Stagnant
Valleo
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Sorry if this is long. I'm not even sure this is the place to post my little rant, but here it is;
So I was browsing Gamefaqs, looking for for info on FF 13 (cause I'm not quite convinced by what I've been hearing), and I come across this thread;
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage.php?board=928790&topic=52742776
Yes, its a long thread. Its also full of people arguing the finer points of video gaming, and for some reason, Star Trek. The quote the OP was referring to is as follows (copy/paste from the thread);
Bioware co-founder Greg Zeschuk lambastes JRPGs for a lack of innovation in a recent interview:
~~~~~~
“The fall of the JRPG in large part is due to a lack of evolution, a lack of progression. They kept delivering the same thing over and over. They make the dressing better, they look prettier, but it’s still the same experience.
My favorite thing, it’s funny when you still see it, but the joke of some of the dialogue systems where it asks, ‘do you wanna do this or this,’ and you say no. ‘Do you wanna do this or this?’ No. ‘Do you wanna do this or this?’ No. Lemme think — you want me to say ‘yes.’ And that, unfortunately, really characterized the JRPG.”
Now I do love me some Bioware. Im just missing two PS3 trophies on Dragon Age, and I played the shit out of KOTOR, so I will happily agree that they do good things. However, whilst playing Dragon Age, I dont ever really remember thinking to myself "wow, this is some innovative shit!". Honestly, what kept me playing was the story..... the world and the mythology they created. I wont get into what I felt were the shortcomings of the game, because thats not the purpose of my post (I do however recognize the ridiculousness of the "Figurehead rule" mentioned by Mr. Zeschuk ... see http://project-apollo.net/text/rpg.html ).
In the interests of keeping this as short as possible, innovation can be great, yes. Typically, its a great innovative idea that ends up spawning sequels of what often ends up being a somewhat more polished version of a game (see Final Fantasy, Halo, GTA, Suikoden, Mario, Zelda, Gears of War, hell, even the EA sports games to a much lesser extent). What makes me a sad panda is seeing great stories, characters, in-game art and music and simple fun going the way of the dodo in the name of innovation (and money of course). This is a blanket statement, I realise this is not always the case. But it seems that the list of games I want to buy gets shorter and shorter every day.
There was an interesting comic on VG Cats about how casual gamers have jacked the video game industry. I also recall a post by Tycho about how difficult it can be to make a game like Dragon Age when "you can make a game about nazi zombies" and make millions selling downloadable maps to kill them on with your buddies online (or something like that). Its all true. At this point it looks almost as though making a game can almost be a gamble. I doubt I will ever have my Suikoden 6, and it looks like Square is bending over backwards trying to make the jRPG something its not. I could be wrong, but I dunno.
its funny, almost everyone I know owns a Wii, but so many of them only have Wii sports and Mario Kart, and havent touched it in forever. I wonder if they even know about all the fun that can be had in the Wii store, or of Fire Emblem at all?
My plea is simple. I like jRPGs. I like wRPGs. I like shooters, sanbox games, beat em ups, figting games, button mashers, puzzle games, sports games....they can all be good. Please keep making fun and interesting games. I dont really care if your new game uses the full potential of the Sixaxis or Wiimote. Just make it interesting. Make it fun. A tried and true formula can still work given a great story (remember Phantasy Star?) or a new mode (horde anyone?).
Anyways, these are just opinions (I'm sorry for the long post). Im sure there are many that will say I have bad taste in games, or I dont know what I'm talking about. That's fine. I'm just wondering if I'm alone in feeling this way..... Is this all what everyone else really wants?
So I was browsing Gamefaqs, looking for for info on FF 13 (cause I'm not quite convinced by what I've been hearing), and I come across this thread;
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage.php?board=928790&topic=52742776
Yes, its a long thread. Its also full of people arguing the finer points of video gaming, and for some reason, Star Trek. The quote the OP was referring to is as follows (copy/paste from the thread);
Bioware co-founder Greg Zeschuk lambastes JRPGs for a lack of innovation in a recent interview:
~~~~~~
“The fall of the JRPG in large part is due to a lack of evolution, a lack of progression. They kept delivering the same thing over and over. They make the dressing better, they look prettier, but it’s still the same experience.
My favorite thing, it’s funny when you still see it, but the joke of some of the dialogue systems where it asks, ‘do you wanna do this or this,’ and you say no. ‘Do you wanna do this or this?’ No. ‘Do you wanna do this or this?’ No. Lemme think — you want me to say ‘yes.’ And that, unfortunately, really characterized the JRPG.”
Now I do love me some Bioware. Im just missing two PS3 trophies on Dragon Age, and I played the shit out of KOTOR, so I will happily agree that they do good things. However, whilst playing Dragon Age, I dont ever really remember thinking to myself "wow, this is some innovative shit!". Honestly, what kept me playing was the story..... the world and the mythology they created. I wont get into what I felt were the shortcomings of the game, because thats not the purpose of my post (I do however recognize the ridiculousness of the "Figurehead rule" mentioned by Mr. Zeschuk ... see http://project-apollo.net/text/rpg.html ).
In the interests of keeping this as short as possible, innovation can be great, yes. Typically, its a great innovative idea that ends up spawning sequels of what often ends up being a somewhat more polished version of a game (see Final Fantasy, Halo, GTA, Suikoden, Mario, Zelda, Gears of War, hell, even the EA sports games to a much lesser extent). What makes me a sad panda is seeing great stories, characters, in-game art and music and simple fun going the way of the dodo in the name of innovation (and money of course). This is a blanket statement, I realise this is not always the case. But it seems that the list of games I want to buy gets shorter and shorter every day.
There was an interesting comic on VG Cats about how casual gamers have jacked the video game industry. I also recall a post by Tycho about how difficult it can be to make a game like Dragon Age when "you can make a game about nazi zombies" and make millions selling downloadable maps to kill them on with your buddies online (or something like that). Its all true. At this point it looks almost as though making a game can almost be a gamble. I doubt I will ever have my Suikoden 6, and it looks like Square is bending over backwards trying to make the jRPG something its not. I could be wrong, but I dunno.
its funny, almost everyone I know owns a Wii, but so many of them only have Wii sports and Mario Kart, and havent touched it in forever. I wonder if they even know about all the fun that can be had in the Wii store, or of Fire Emblem at all?
My plea is simple. I like jRPGs. I like wRPGs. I like shooters, sanbox games, beat em ups, figting games, button mashers, puzzle games, sports games....they can all be good. Please keep making fun and interesting games. I dont really care if your new game uses the full potential of the Sixaxis or Wiimote. Just make it interesting. Make it fun. A tried and true formula can still work given a great story (remember Phantasy Star?) or a new mode (horde anyone?).
Anyways, these are just opinions (I'm sorry for the long post). Im sure there are many that will say I have bad taste in games, or I dont know what I'm talking about. That's fine. I'm just wondering if I'm alone in feeling this way..... Is this all what everyone else really wants?
Valleo on
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The industry is big money, and obviously Zeschuck wants the money to go wRPGs (specifically his company).
I can't imagine how anyone thinks Jade Empire, Mass Effect, and Dragon Age are the exact same game.
There is a chart on the Internet that conclusively proves this.
Edit: Found it:
Sorry, I guess I was rambling. My point was that it seems a little ridiculous to me to condemn a video game genre saying they "lack innovation", when the last game I played that i thought was really innovative was Okami (and even that was shades of Zelda). But he isn't wrong in saying the genre has had some pretty lackluster offering of late. Its just that when he says "innovative", I hear "marketable to the masses" instead.
Ultimately, I was wondering what people though about the fate of the jRPG, and whether they agree about the lack of innovation, or if they feel that the industry itself is simply moving away from this type of game in favour of something that sells better (or something else entirely).
Okami is a bit more then shades of Zelda. It is Zelda, except not as good and with an eastern mythology instead of a vaguely western one.
The problem with JRPGs is that they don't give you the same level of control over the story, so unless the story really resonates with the player it can only be appreciated as a game, rather than the story making up half of what makes the game great as RPGs are supposed to be.
The last JRPG where I actually cared about the story, instead of just playing it to "get my RPG fix" and tolerating the trashy story about a plucky young hero who saves the world from certain doom, was Digital Devil Saga.
You know, the one where we have Bioware employees posting pretty much constantly.
Unless this is just an internet outrage thing, in which case carry on until the lock.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Sigh... what I thought was innovative about Okami was the brush stroke abilities and the art (to call them graphics doesn't do them justice). I agree that the gameplay itself was a Zelda clone (in fact I believe the game's creator mentioned he loves the Zelda series and was greatly inspired by it).
There aren't a ton of good characters in video games really, outside of Lucasarts adventure games and those of your own creation (the epic Patrick Stewart X-COM soldier comes to mind).
I guess I'd agree that JRPGs have gotten stale to me. Maybe it is just a stylistic thing; I don't know. The last one I actually finished was... um... FF7 maybe? The last one that actually got me involved was Lost Odyssey - mostly because of the very atypical-for-a-JRPG vignettes and overall mood. I will still pick up FF13 when it comes out for the 360, mostly because I don't think I've given a FF game a fair shot in a long time.
It's kind of funny that this topic came up, because I was just setting down my third playthrough of DA:O and thought I would download FF8 for the PSPgo. After about five minutes of FF8 I remembered how tedious and bewildering the old-school JRPGs are and quit out.
Compared to what? And what standard are you using, here? Do you mean iconic, memorable characters you can name years after the fact? Because there are tons of those now, even in games where the story isn't at the forefront. Or do you mean characters who are written to the same degree of rigor as the ones in books and movies? Because story-heavy genres like RPGs and adventures have given us a huge range of characters done to all resolutions, from broad and cartoony to muted and realistic.
I mean sometimes not but mostly yeah. Chrono Trigger is more innovative than frigging Lost Odyssey. Also, I've never really liked the fact that JRPGs allow role-playing in no sense whatsover.
Really, the only recent JRPGs I've had any fun with were the Persona games, partly because their weird-pokemon-dating-game mix was new to me.
Most of the main characters in Bioshock were pretty cool. The characters in Lost Odyssey were far better than expected. I thought that Ezio from AC2 was pretty neat.
And the characters in Bioware games are by and large decent.
VG characters are getting better. Master Chief to the side.
The visual style in Okami was really the big thing for me. The brushstroke thing was an interesting change-up and the fact that you played a dog-god was awesome.
Really I thought it was a great game.
But no. Altair was a trained assassin, killing that guy was just another day at the office for him. For Ezio, it's personal. He flips the fuck out, stabs him multiple times in the chest and stomach, and does his little shout out to all the onlookers. They stand there in stunned silence for a couple seconds before the chase begins.
Well, let's define innovation.
WRPGS still use D&D as a basis for their combat systems for like 30 years now. They also tend to have dialog choices permanently matter in some way up to and including your choice of race and gender. Things can be open ended to the detriment of the game.
JRPGS tend to have very different battle systems, though they tend to rely on leveling versus skill. Choices tend to not make anything matter but minor differences. A common insult is there isn't any role-playing in a JRPG. JRPGs absolutely take more risks in their art design and I consider that a huge positive for them.
What's more innovative?
What experience is missing from them that isn't covered by a different sub-genre?
How are JRPGs less like D&D than WRPGs?
It's not that I expect sequels to be wildly different from their predecessors. I mean, if I buy Halo 2, it is presumably because I liked the first one and would like more of the same. It just felt like nothing was being learned from iteration to iteration - there'd be some new crystal license junction bullshit but conversations still consisted of walking up to people and pressing A to read their blue box of text. Final Fantasy XII really seemed like it tried, at least in parts, to bring something new to the table in terms of both the gameplay and the type of story being told, but I guess that didn't take.
And then there is WoW - though MMOs are really their own thing.
Meanwhile it feels like you can't turn around without bouncing into another JRPG. Maybe that is why the cliches seem more obvious and the games seem more formulaic.
Obviously, I prefer WRPGs, yet I end up playing through about half of a lot of JRPGs simply because of their ubiquity. In fact I am probably going to kick off Crimson Gem Saga tonight (yeah I know it's Korean but whatever. Korea is Japan Junior these days)
Bioware's not making the same game over and over. Aside from the unfortunate "go to these four places" trope, their RPGs have evolved pretty continuously from the first kotor game forward. They aren't still using the D&D rules and haven't for a while (I mean, what?)
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Yeah. Wizardry too.
I played through the Dark Tower on DS earlier this year and really liked the old school throwback. Started playing Class of Magic but found it a little too twiddly. I also enjoyed Eritrian Odyssey but didn't finish it - I liked the idea that they were changing up the class structure but found myself kind of disliking a lot of the classes.
Gotta be more specific. Combat? Story? Double the Dragon for the same price?
Combat, since that's what you brought up.
This.
Which is weird cause I could have sworn that Jade Empire and Mass Effect were different games.
at the time, chrono trigger and final fantasy 6 had everything you wanted in a game. it had an excellent unique story that took you into a different world with its own history and culture. it had a great musical score that enhance the mood. it had top of the line graphics at the time enough so you could see your characters emotions without having to read it in the text and both games had enough characters stories and background to keep you interested for 70+ hours if you wanted it to.
Its like saying 'I don't see what the big deal is about microwave ovens'. right now, they're standard fare... but in the 50s, that shit was amazing.
Think it was one of those "you had to be there" kinda things.
I think the appeal of Chrono Trigger is that it's got a really propulsive story where you are always, always going new places and encountering new monsters and new graphics and so on. It also manages to keep that momentum all the way through to the end.
I also liked it because it didn't have a lot of extraneous bullshit. You equipped your guys with stuff and had them fight. Mastery of the game didn't entail mastery of some arcane subsystem created just for the occasion.
There are a billion flavors of random Mystical Hooey to throw together for a story, but actual meaningful dialogue and choices is much more arduous to produce.
It stood out as a JRPG because it had a fair number of unique aspects:
1. Time travel, obviously. Not only did it do it, it did it well.
2. No random battles, which subtly adds to the game's immersion.
3. Characters that seemed unique and grew on the player, despite all of them being total cliches. Probably helped by the magic system. If you needed fire magic, you needed Lucca, not just any one of your party members equpped with fire materia.
4. Multiple endings and a new game+ feature
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget