I'm sure this has been mentioned in the 8 pages but I'm too lazy to read or come up with an appropriate search. In Colorado we have a point system for our license and even if a low fine doesn't hurt a rich person financially having their license taken away after their 3rd or 4th speeding ticket in some amount of time would be a decent disincentive. This would also prevent cops from profiling rich people/cars to raise money.
This is everything wrong with America.
Also, your handle just wept.
I don't see why anyone ought to be profiled. I love taking rich people's money for taxes but I'd rather the police stop bleeding all people for cash in the name of public safety instead of singling out the rich.
I'd rather just single out the rich.
Well your position seems to have an emotional rather than a logical basis. If you hate the rich and want them to suffer then it makes sense for them to be profiled by the police but laws shouldn't be made because you or anyone else hates the rich.
I would think this would start a new kind of police profiling where they pull over nice cars for the smallest things.
Is this worse than police profiling cheap cars because the drivers are less likely to fight the ticket with a lawyer?
Does that really happen?
I don't think that's the reason, but coming from a law enforcement family, yes the police do profile shitty looking cars, mainly because people on parole and probation tend to drive shitty looking cars.
I once got a ticket for my left blinker blinking too fast after the cop pulled over my crappy car, tried to write me a ticket for no insurance, but I had just gotten it and had an insurance card. Grumbling he immediately went to town finding something else he could nail me with to get his ticket quota.
In any state where insurance is required, people with shitty cars (who probably cant affoard to insure them) are an extra source of revenue for the police department, because the state mandates you have insurance, provides no subsidy if you can't afford it, and provides no mass transit as an alternative. So if you're a poor college kid who can't afford the ludicrous premiums (seriously, they're easily double in states where it's mandatory, they've already started hiking the fuck out of liability prices in wisconsin in salivating anticipation of the law change) you can either quit going to college or hide from police cars.
/rant
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SarksusATTACK AND DETHRONE GODRegistered Userregular
haha, i got one of those bicycle tickets too. I was able to get it thrown out just by talking to the judge, though, i didn't need a lawyer.
I was wondering what would have happened if i just refused to show the cop my ID. I mean, why should I need a driver's lisence to ride a bike? and how can he give me a ticket without knowing my name?
While you aren't required to show your license, you are required to give your name, they can look you up that way.
What... what happnes if you give some random name and refuse to show ID? Like, I'm sure someone's tried that... will they detain you until they can verify your identity?
Why would you give them a fake name? That is stupid. Do you think it's unreasonable for a police officer to be suspicious of someone giving a fake name and wanting to find out why they did that and who they are?
Is it unreasonable to give a rolling stop ticket to someone on a bicycle?
Are the two situations analogous?
No.
They are wholly separate and I don't care about the bike at all.
Get the ticket and then protest it. This is how you do it if you want to actually do something rather than just uselessly whine.
I'm sure this has been mentioned in the 8 pages but I'm too lazy to read or come up with an appropriate search. In Colorado we have a point system for our license and even if a low fine doesn't hurt a rich person financially having their license taken away after their 3rd or 4th speeding ticket in some amount of time would be a decent disincentive. This would also prevent cops from profiling rich people/cars to raise money.
This is everything wrong with America.
Also, your handle just wept.
I don't see why anyone ought to be profiled. I love taking rich people's money for taxes but I'd rather the police stop bleeding all people for cash in the name of public safety instead of singling out the rich.
I'd rather just single out the rich.
Well your position seems to have an emotional rather than a logical basis. If you hate the rich and want them to suffer then it makes sense for them to be profiled by the police but laws shouldn't be made because you or anyone else hates the rich.
It's not emotional. I'm just not going to give you the entirety of Das Kapital, Negri, Adorno and Foucault in one post.
It's part of the fact that our laws and systems of justice are set up in such a way that the chance to get a favorable verdict (much like everything else in this country) depends on how deep your pockets are.
A progressive, income percentage-based fine system is truly the correct framework to punish anyone. I argue that a larger burden in pure mathematics outside of context needs to be shared by the wealthy.
haha, i got one of those bicycle tickets too. I was able to get it thrown out just by talking to the judge, though, i didn't need a lawyer.
I was wondering what would have happened if i just refused to show the cop my ID. I mean, why should I need a driver's lisence to ride a bike? and how can he give me a ticket without knowing my name?
While you aren't required to show your license, you are required to give your name, they can look you up that way.
What... what happnes if you give some random name and refuse to show ID? Like, I'm sure someone's tried that... will they detain you until they can verify your identity?
Yes, and then charge you with giving false information.
I'm pretty sure they won't drag you down to the station just because you weren't carrying an ID with you while you were riding your bike. I guess if you gave a name like "Mr. X" they might, but reasonably they couldn't.
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SarksusATTACK AND DETHRONE GODRegistered Userregular
I'm sure this has been mentioned in the 8 pages but I'm too lazy to read or come up with an appropriate search. In Colorado we have a point system for our license and even if a low fine doesn't hurt a rich person financially having their license taken away after their 3rd or 4th speeding ticket in some amount of time would be a decent disincentive. This would also prevent cops from profiling rich people/cars to raise money.
This is everything wrong with America.
Also, your handle just wept.
I don't see why anyone ought to be profiled. I love taking rich people's money for taxes but I'd rather the police stop bleeding all people for cash in the name of public safety instead of singling out the rich.
I'd rather just single out the rich.
Well your position seems to have an emotional rather than a logical basis. If you hate the rich and want them to suffer then it makes sense for them to be profiled by the police but laws shouldn't be made because you or anyone else hates the rich.
It's not emotional. I'm just not going to give you the entirety of Das Kapital, Negri, Adorno and Foucault in one post.
It's part of the fact that our laws and systems of justice are set up in such a way that the chance to get a favorable verdict (much like everything else in this country) depends on how deep your pockets are.
A progressive, income percentage-based fine system is truly the correct framework to punish anyone. I argue that a larger burden in pure mathematics outside of context needs to be shared by the wealthy.
What are you talking about? Don't switch arguments on me. We are talking about profiling the rich. We are talking about specifically pulling someone over because they are rich. That is what was said at the beginning of the quote tree. Profiling is wrong, I didn't say anything about scaling the fines to the person's income. I don't really care about how it's done, I prefer a points system instead of fines altogether.
I'm sure this has been mentioned in the 8 pages but I'm too lazy to read or come up with an appropriate search. In Colorado we have a point system for our license and even if a low fine doesn't hurt a rich person financially having their license taken away after their 3rd or 4th speeding ticket in some amount of time would be a decent disincentive. This would also prevent cops from profiling rich people/cars to raise money.
This is everything wrong with America.
Also, your handle just wept.
I don't see why anyone ought to be profiled. I love taking rich people's money for taxes but I'd rather the police stop bleeding all people for cash in the name of public safety instead of singling out the rich.
I'd rather just single out the rich.
Well your position seems to have an emotional rather than a logical basis. If you hate the rich and want them to suffer then it makes sense for them to be profiled by the police but laws shouldn't be made because you or anyone else hates the rich.
It's not emotional. I'm just not going to give you the entirety of Das Kapital, Negri, Adorno and Foucault in one post.
It's part of the fact that our laws and systems of justice are set up in such a way that the chance to get a favorable verdict (much like everything else in this country) depends on how deep your pockets are.
A progressive, income percentage-based fine system is truly the correct framework to punish anyone. I argue that a larger burden in pure mathematics outside of context needs to be shared by the wealthy.
What are you talking about? Don't switch arguments on me. We are talking about profiling the rich. We are talking about specifically pulling someone over because they are rich. That is what was said at the beginning of the quote tree. Profiling is wrong, I didn't say anything about scaling the fines to the person's income. I don't really care about how it's done, I prefer a points system instead of fines altogether.
The original statement in response to the red was pointed out the absurdity of worrying that the "rich get profiled".
The issue with the points system is, again, that the burden ends up on those who are not wealthy in a much less fair method of distribution. Scaling, financial fines are the only way put forward to ensure that the penalty's impact is "fair".
haha, i got one of those bicycle tickets too. I was able to get it thrown out just by talking to the judge, though, i didn't need a lawyer.
I was wondering what would have happened if i just refused to show the cop my ID. I mean, why should I need a driver's lisence to ride a bike? and how can he give me a ticket without knowing my name?
While you aren't required to show your license, you are required to give your name, they can look you up that way.
What... what happnes if you give some random name and refuse to show ID? Like, I'm sure someone's tried that... will they detain you until they can verify your identity?
Yes, and then charge you with giving false information.
I'm pretty sure they won't drag you down to the station just because you weren't carrying an ID with you while you were riding your bike. I guess if you gave a name like "Mr. X" they might, but reasonably they couldn't.
Because a cop who pulls over a cyclist for a california stop certainly has better things to be doing with his time, right?
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SarksusATTACK AND DETHRONE GODRegistered Userregular
I'm sure this has been mentioned in the 8 pages but I'm too lazy to read or come up with an appropriate search. In Colorado we have a point system for our license and even if a low fine doesn't hurt a rich person financially having their license taken away after their 3rd or 4th speeding ticket in some amount of time would be a decent disincentive. This would also prevent cops from profiling rich people/cars to raise money.
This is everything wrong with America.
Also, your handle just wept.
I don't see why anyone ought to be profiled. I love taking rich people's money for taxes but I'd rather the police stop bleeding all people for cash in the name of public safety instead of singling out the rich.
I'd rather just single out the rich.
Well your position seems to have an emotional rather than a logical basis. If you hate the rich and want them to suffer then it makes sense for them to be profiled by the police but laws shouldn't be made because you or anyone else hates the rich.
It's not emotional. I'm just not going to give you the entirety of Das Kapital, Negri, Adorno and Foucault in one post.
It's part of the fact that our laws and systems of justice are set up in such a way that the chance to get a favorable verdict (much like everything else in this country) depends on how deep your pockets are.
A progressive, income percentage-based fine system is truly the correct framework to punish anyone. I argue that a larger burden in pure mathematics outside of context needs to be shared by the wealthy.
What are you talking about? Don't switch arguments on me. We are talking about profiling the rich. We are talking about specifically pulling someone over because they are rich. That is what was said at the beginning of the quote tree. Profiling is wrong, I didn't say anything about scaling the fines to the person's income. I don't really care about how it's done, I prefer a points system instead of fines altogether.
The original statement in response to the red was pointed out the absurdity of worrying that the "rich get profiled".
How could they not? Are you going to try and argue that law enforcement is a completely homogeneous group where everyone hates poor people and no one is going to go after the rich, who are apparently their masters, even though pulling over one rich person would probably equal pulling over dozens of poor people? The monetary incentive for pulling over someone who appears wealthy would be enormous.
Hey if they hate poor people so much they should want to pull over a few rich people too because then they can use the extra money to buy tazers to shoot at poor people.
I'm sure this has been mentioned in the 8 pages but I'm too lazy to read or come up with an appropriate search. In Colorado we have a point system for our license and even if a low fine doesn't hurt a rich person financially having their license taken away after their 3rd or 4th speeding ticket in some amount of time would be a decent disincentive. This would also prevent cops from profiling rich people/cars to raise money.
This is everything wrong with America.
Also, your handle just wept.
I don't see why anyone ought to be profiled. I love taking rich people's money for taxes but I'd rather the police stop bleeding all people for cash in the name of public safety instead of singling out the rich.
I'd rather just single out the rich.
Well your position seems to have an emotional rather than a logical basis. If you hate the rich and want them to suffer then it makes sense for them to be profiled by the police but laws shouldn't be made because you or anyone else hates the rich.
It's not emotional. I'm just not going to give you the entirety of Das Kapital, Negri, Adorno and Foucault in one post.
It's part of the fact that our laws and systems of justice are set up in such a way that the chance to get a favorable verdict (much like everything else in this country) depends on how deep your pockets are.
A progressive, income percentage-based fine system is truly the correct framework to punish anyone. I argue that a larger burden in pure mathematics outside of context needs to be shared by the wealthy.
What are you talking about? Don't switch arguments on me. We are talking about profiling the rich. We are talking about specifically pulling someone over because they are rich. That is what was said at the beginning of the quote tree. Profiling is wrong, I didn't say anything about scaling the fines to the person's income. I don't really care about how it's done, I prefer a points system instead of fines altogether.
The original statement in response to the red was pointed out the absurdity of worrying that the "rich get profiled".
How could they not? Are you going to try and argue that law enforcement is a completely homogeneous group where everyone hates poor people and no one is going to go after the rich, who are apparently their masters, even though pulling over one rich person would probably equal pulling over dozens of poor people? The monetary incentive for pulling over someone who appears wealthy would be enormous.
Hey if they hate poor people so much they should want to pull over a few rich people too because then they can use the extra money to buy tazers to shoot at poor people.
Yeah. We're done. The responses are well documented in the thread already.
When cops start profiling the rich, that'll be the day.
Seriously worrying about unduly profiling the rich is a laughable thing if you have any conception of how every facet of criminal justice works at this moment
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SarksusATTACK AND DETHRONE GODRegistered Userregular
The issue with the points system is, again, that the burden ends up on those who are not wealthy in a much less fair method of distribution. Scaling, financial fines are the only way put forward to ensure that the penalty's impact is "fair".
This isn't about penalties, this is about preventing unsafe conditions on the road. If you suspend someone's license and they're caught again driving then they can be put in jail and they are definitely off the road. You can fine someone until the cow's come home but a driver with a history of reckless driving is still on the road. Fining is ancillary. It's an extra penalty, but it doesn't serve the ultimate goal which should be road safety as well as a points system that eventually results in jail time and the physical removal of an offender from the road.
Edit: I read the thread, I've participated in the thread, and if my arguments were already refuted I wouldn't be making them.
When cops start profiling the rich, that'll be the day.
Seriously worrying about unduly profiling the rich is a laughable thing if you have any conception of how every facet of criminal justice works at this moment
When cops start profiling the rich, that'll be the day.
Seriously worrying about unduly profiling the rich is a laughable thing if you have any conception of how every facet of criminal justice works at this moment
Thank you. That was all I was saying, originally.
Yep, even if the rich are unduly profiled, they can defend themselves legally.
A cop will not give a bunch of bullshit fines to someone in a Ferrari, because that guy will sue the department
When cops start profiling the rich, that'll be the day.
Seriously worrying about unduly profiling the rich is a laughable thing if you have any conception of how every facet of criminal justice works at this moment
Thank you. That was all I was saying, originally.
You were saying that you're ok with justice being unfair as long as it's unfair in your favor. Got it.
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SarksusATTACK AND DETHRONE GODRegistered Userregular
When cops start profiling the rich, that'll be the day.
Seriously worrying about unduly profiling the rich is a laughable thing if you have any conception of how every facet of criminal justice works at this moment
Thank you. That was all I was saying, originally.
Yep, even if the rich are unduly profiled, they can defend themselves legally.
A cop will not give a bunch of bullshit fines to someone in a Ferrari, because that guy will sue the department
And what separates bullshit fines with reasonable fines in the eyes of a rich person? Why would they pay a bunch of money out to the police at all if they can just sue a bunch of people and get out of it? So how will this proposed system of fines actually work if the rich can just sue?
haha, i got one of those bicycle tickets too. I was able to get it thrown out just by talking to the judge, though, i didn't need a lawyer.
I was wondering what would have happened if i just refused to show the cop my ID. I mean, why should I need a driver's lisence to ride a bike? and how can he give me a ticket without knowing my name?
While you aren't required to show your license, you are required to give your name, they can look you up that way.
What... what happnes if you give some random name and refuse to show ID? Like, I'm sure someone's tried that... will they detain you until they can verify your identity?
Yes, and then charge you with giving false information.
I'm pretty sure they won't drag you down to the station just because you weren't carrying an ID with you while you were riding your bike. I guess if you gave a name like "Mr. X" they might, but reasonably they couldn't.
Because a cop who pulls over a cyclist for a california stop certainly has better things to be doing with his time, right?
Cop: what's your name?
me: Harold Smith.
Cop: Oh yeah? Prove it!
me: uhh, I can't. I don't have any ID with me, and I just moved here.
Cop: Maybe you'll be more cooperative after a few days in the slammer! Book em, boys!
haha, i got one of those bicycle tickets too. I was able to get it thrown out just by talking to the judge, though, i didn't need a lawyer.
I was wondering what would have happened if i just refused to show the cop my ID. I mean, why should I need a driver's lisence to ride a bike? and how can he give me a ticket without knowing my name?
While you aren't required to show your license, you are required to give your name, they can look you up that way.
What... what happnes if you give some random name and refuse to show ID? Like, I'm sure someone's tried that... will they detain you until they can verify your identity?
Yes, and then charge you with giving false information.
I'm pretty sure they won't drag you down to the station just because you weren't carrying an ID with you while you were riding your bike. I guess if you gave a name like "Mr. X" they might, but reasonably they couldn't.
Because a cop who pulls over a cyclist for a california stop certainly has better things to be doing with his time, right?
Cop: what's your name?
me: Harold Smith.
Cop: Oh yeah? Prove it!
me: uhh, I can't. I don't have any ID with me, and I just moved here.
Cop: Maybe you'll be more cooperative after a few days in the slammer! Book em, boys!
Is that how you think it'll go down?
It's more along the lines of they ask you for your name and DOB, then check the records on the in-car computer, or call it in to dispatch. When you give them a fake name and DOB and they don't match, chances are they'll arrest you for whatever the violation they pulled you over for and giving false information.
When cops start profiling the rich, that'll be the day.
Seriously worrying about unduly profiling the rich is a laughable thing if you have any conception of how every facet of criminal justice works at this moment
Thank you. That was all I was saying, originally.
Yep, even if the rich are unduly profiled, they can defend themselves legally.
A cop will not give a bunch of bullshit fines to someone in a Ferrari, because that guy will sue the department
The Ferrari that blows by me on the freeway doing 100 is not nearly as scary/dangerous as the 15 year old Oldsmobile doing 85. IL has different speed limits for Semis/Rvs/people towing campers. No reason there couldn't be higher speed limits for cars that are designed for them.
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Deebaseron my way to work in a suit and a tieAhhhh...come on fucking guyRegistered Userregular
haha, i got one of those bicycle tickets too. I was able to get it thrown out just by talking to the judge, though, i didn't need a lawyer.
I was wondering what would have happened if i just refused to show the cop my ID. I mean, why should I need a driver's lisence to ride a bike? and how can he give me a ticket without knowing my name?
While you aren't required to show your license, you are required to give your name, they can look you up that way.
What... what happnes if you give some random name and refuse to show ID? Like, I'm sure someone's tried that... will they detain you until they can verify your identity?
Yes, and then charge you with giving false information.
I'm pretty sure they won't drag you down to the station just because you weren't carrying an ID with you while you were riding your bike. I guess if you gave a name like "Mr. X" they might, but reasonably they couldn't.
Because a cop who pulls over a cyclist for a california stop certainly has better things to be doing with his time, right?
Cop: what's your name?
me: Harold Smith.
Cop: Oh yeah? Prove it!
me: uhh, I can't. I don't have any ID with me, and I just moved here.
Cop: Maybe you'll be more cooperative after a few days in the slammer! Book em, boys!
Is that how you think it'll go down?
It wouldn't be the first time that happened.
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Deebaseron my way to work in a suit and a tieAhhhh...come on fucking guyRegistered Userregular
When cops start profiling the rich, that'll be the day.
Seriously worrying about unduly profiling the rich is a laughable thing if you have any conception of how every facet of criminal justice works at this moment
LOL
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SarksusATTACK AND DETHRONE GODRegistered Userregular
When cops start profiling the rich, that'll be the day.
Seriously worrying about unduly profiling the rich is a laughable thing if you have any conception of how every facet of criminal justice works at this moment
Thank you. That was all I was saying, originally.
Yep, even if the rich are unduly profiled, they can defend themselves legally.
A cop will not give a bunch of bullshit fines to someone in a Ferrari, because that guy will sue the department
The Ferrari that blows by me on the freeway doing 100 is not nearly as scary/dangerous as the 15 year old Oldsmobile doing 85. IL has different speed limits for Semis/Rvs/people towing campers. No reason there couldn't be higher speed limits for cars that are designed for them.
Oh no, no, absolutely not. There is no way that high-performance vehicles get to go faster just because the idiots behind the wheel can afford to buy one. Just because the car is designed to go fast doesn't mean the road is safe at that speed or the driver is capable of driving competently at that speed.
me: uhh, I can't. I don't have any ID with me, and I just moved here.
Cop: Maybe you'll be more cooperative after a few days in the slammer! Book em, boys!
Is that how you think it'll go down?
It's more along the lines of they ask you for your name and DOB, then check the records on the in-car computer, or call it in to dispatch. When you give them a fake name and DOB and they don't match, chances are they'll arrest you for whatever the violation they pulled you over for and giving false information.
Wait, isn't this America you're talking about? There's no national ID database, only a driver's ID database, and there's no reason for a cyclist to appear on it. What records could they possibly check?
me: uhh, I can't. I don't have any ID with me, and I just moved here.
Cop: Maybe you'll be more cooperative after a few days in the slammer! Book em, boys!
Is that how you think it'll go down?
It's more along the lines of they ask you for your name and DOB, then check the records on the in-car computer, or call it in to dispatch. When you give them a fake name and DOB and they don't match, chances are they'll arrest you for whatever the violation they pulled you over for and giving false information.
Wait, isn't this America you're talking about? There's no national ID database, only a driver's ID database, and there's no reason for a cyclist to appear on it. What records could they possibly check?
You do realize that the license database is searchable by name right? The only way you're not going to be in it is if you've never had a drivers license or state ID, and considering just about every single job you'll ever have will require you to at least have a state ID, chances are you're going to be in the database.
me: uhh, I can't. I don't have any ID with me, and I just moved here.
Cop: Maybe you'll be more cooperative after a few days in the slammer! Book em, boys!
Is that how you think it'll go down?
It's more along the lines of they ask you for your name and DOB, then check the records on the in-car computer, or call it in to dispatch. When you give them a fake name and DOB and they don't match, chances are they'll arrest you for whatever the violation they pulled you over for and giving false information.
Wait, isn't this America you're talking about? There's no national ID database, only a driver's ID database, and there's no reason for a cyclist to appear on it. What records could they possibly check?
You do realize that the license database is searchable by name right? The only way you're not going to be in it is if you've never had a drivers license or state ID, and considering just about every single job you'll ever have will require you to at least have a state ID, chances are you're going to be in the database.
yeah but it's not, a CRIME to have never had an ID.
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SarksusATTACK AND DETHRONE GODRegistered Userregular
me: uhh, I can't. I don't have any ID with me, and I just moved here.
Cop: Maybe you'll be more cooperative after a few days in the slammer! Book em, boys!
Is that how you think it'll go down?
It's more along the lines of they ask you for your name and DOB, then check the records on the in-car computer, or call it in to dispatch. When you give them a fake name and DOB and they don't match, chances are they'll arrest you for whatever the violation they pulled you over for and giving false information.
Wait, isn't this America you're talking about? There's no national ID database, only a driver's ID database, and there's no reason for a cyclist to appear on it. What records could they possibly check?
You do realize that the license database is searchable by name right? The only way you're not going to be in it is if you've never had a drivers license or state ID, and considering just about every single job you'll ever have will require you to at least have a state ID, chances are you're going to be in the database.
yeah but it's not, a CRIME to have never had an ID.
You're right, it's not, which is why giving real information that isn't in the database will only result in them holding you until they're sure who you are, while giving false information will result in you being arrested.
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Deebaseron my way to work in a suit and a tieAhhhh...come on fucking guyRegistered Userregular
me: uhh, I can't. I don't have any ID with me, and I just moved here.
Cop: Maybe you'll be more cooperative after a few days in the slammer! Book em, boys!
Is that how you think it'll go down?
It's more along the lines of they ask you for your name and DOB, then check the records on the in-car computer, or call it in to dispatch. When you give them a fake name and DOB and they don't match, chances are they'll arrest you for whatever the violation they pulled you over for and giving false information.
Wait, isn't this America you're talking about? There's no national ID database, only a driver's ID database, and there's no reason for a cyclist to appear on it. What records could they possibly check?
You do realize that the license database is searchable by name right? The only way you're not going to be in it is if you've never had a drivers license or state ID, and considering just about every single job you'll ever have will require you to at least have a state ID, chances are you're going to be in the database.
yeah but it's not, a CRIME to have never had an ID.
Telling a cop what he doesn't want to hear is enough to get you brought down to the station.
In a perfect world, it shouldn't happen, but in the real world it does.
When cops start profiling the rich, that'll be the day.
Seriously worrying about unduly profiling the rich is a laughable thing if you have any conception of how every facet of criminal justice works at this moment
Thank you. That was all I was saying, originally.
Yep, even if the rich are unduly profiled, they can defend themselves legally.
A cop will not give a bunch of bullshit fines to someone in a Ferrari, because that guy will sue the department
The Ferrari that blows by me on the freeway doing 100 is not nearly as scary/dangerous as the 15 year old Oldsmobile doing 85. IL has different speed limits for Semis/Rvs/people towing campers. No reason there couldn't be higher speed limits for cars that are designed for them.
Oh no, no, absolutely not. There is no way that high-performance vehicles get to go faster just because the idiots behind the wheel can afford to buy one. Just because the car is designed to go fast doesn't mean the road is safe at that speed or the driver is capable of driving competently at that speed.
Hell no.
top gear lap times:
11) 1:19.0 - Enzo Ferrari
121) 1:32.2 - Ford Focus RS Mk I
me: uhh, I can't. I don't have any ID with me, and I just moved here.
Cop: Maybe you'll be more cooperative after a few days in the slammer! Book em, boys!
Is that how you think it'll go down?
It's more along the lines of they ask you for your name and DOB, then check the records on the in-car computer, or call it in to dispatch. When you give them a fake name and DOB and they don't match, chances are they'll arrest you for whatever the violation they pulled you over for and giving false information.
Wait, isn't this America you're talking about? There's no national ID database, only a driver's ID database, and there's no reason for a cyclist to appear on it. What records could they possibly check?
You do realize that the license database is searchable by name right? The only way you're not going to be in it is if you've never had a drivers license or state ID, and considering just about every single job you'll ever have will require you to at least have a state ID, chances are you're going to be in the database.
yeah but it's not, a CRIME to have never had an ID.
You're right, it's not, which is why giving real information that isn't in the database will only result in them holding you until they're sure who you are, while giving false information will result in you being arrested.
they can't just hold you until you prove your identity, when they have nothing to charge you with except a traffic violation. That's blatantly illegal.
You're right, it's not, which is why giving real information that isn't in the database will only result in them holding you until they're sure who you are, while giving false information will result in you being arrested.
How do they check who you are? o_O
I'm John Smith. No you're not, tell us who you are. No, I'm John Smith. No you're not, show us your national ID card whoops there isn't one.
Okay, so he brings you down to the station. What happens next? What can they possibly charge you with?
me: uhh, I can't. I don't have any ID with me, and I just moved here.
Cop: Maybe you'll be more cooperative after a few days in the slammer! Book em, boys!
Is that how you think it'll go down?
It's more along the lines of they ask you for your name and DOB, then check the records on the in-car computer, or call it in to dispatch. When you give them a fake name and DOB and they don't match, chances are they'll arrest you for whatever the violation they pulled you over for and giving false information.
Wait, isn't this America you're talking about? There's no national ID database, only a driver's ID database, and there's no reason for a cyclist to appear on it. What records could they possibly check?
You do realize that the license database is searchable by name right? The only way you're not going to be in it is if you've never had a drivers license or state ID, and considering just about every single job you'll ever have will require you to at least have a state ID, chances are you're going to be in the database.
yeah but it's not, a CRIME to have never had an ID.
Telling a cop what he doesn't want to hear is enough to get you brought down to the station.
In a perfect world, it shouldn't happen, but in the real world it does.
Cops can do anything they want to you for any reason, so the best bet is to cooperate.
When cops start profiling the rich, that'll be the day.
Seriously worrying about unduly profiling the rich is a laughable thing if you have any conception of how every facet of criminal justice works at this moment
Thank you. That was all I was saying, originally.
You were saying that you're ok with justice being unfair as long as it's unfair in your favor. Got it.
Justice does not have to be fair. Being fair isn't being just. A lot of the problematic ideas in this debate are coming from this myth that fairness and justice are the same thing (or at least parallel lines high-fiving each other).
I'm okay with a system of justice being slightly unfair to the rich because they can afford to equal out the unfairness.
While on the other hand, being unfair to a group of people who don't have the means to level the playing field doesn't sit as well to me.
The system is going to be unfair somewhere. It's run by people. I would rather it's unfair to people who can handle it, rather than, people who have no choice but to take it.
When cops start profiling the rich, that'll be the day.
Seriously worrying about unduly profiling the rich is a laughable thing if you have any conception of how every facet of criminal justice works at this moment
Thank you. That was all I was saying, originally.
Yep, even if the rich are unduly profiled, they can defend themselves legally.
A cop will not give a bunch of bullshit fines to someone in a Ferrari, because that guy will sue the department
The Ferrari that blows by me on the freeway doing 100 is not nearly as scary/dangerous as the 15 year old Oldsmobile doing 85. IL has different speed limits for Semis/Rvs/people towing campers. No reason there couldn't be higher speed limits for cars that are designed for them.
Oh no, no, absolutely not. There is no way that high-performance vehicles get to go faster just because the idiots behind the wheel can afford to buy one. Just because the car is designed to go fast doesn't mean the road is safe at that speed or the driver is capable of driving competently at that speed.
Hell no.
top gear lap times:
11) 1:19.0 - Enzo Ferrari
121) 1:32.2 - Ford Focus RS Mk I
And why would we go to all of this trouble exactly? What's wrong with not going 100mph? And how widespread would this be? Do you want a mixture of ordinary cars going 70-80 driving on the same roads as cars going 100mph or more?
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SarksusATTACK AND DETHRONE GODRegistered Userregular
When cops start profiling the rich, that'll be the day.
Seriously worrying about unduly profiling the rich is a laughable thing if you have any conception of how every facet of criminal justice works at this moment
Thank you. That was all I was saying, originally.
You were saying that you're ok with justice being unfair as long as it's unfair in your favor. Got it.
Justice does not have to be fair. Being fair isn't being just. A lot of the problematic ideas in this debate are coming from this myth that fairness and justice are the same thing (or at least parallel lines high-fiving each other).
I'm okay with a system of justice being slightly unfair to the rich because they can afford to equal out the unfairness.
While on the other hand, being unfair to a group of people who don't have the means to level the playing field doesn't sit as well to me.
The system is going to be unfair somewhere. It's run by people. I would rather it's unfair to people who can handle it, rather than, people who have no choice but to take it.
Or maybe we can just do our best to eliminate unfairness altogether rather than giving up because it's too hard. And maybe we can not intentionally craft legislation knowing that it's unfair.
And justice and fairness are linked. Justice depends on the consistent application of law. It's one of the foundations of law which allows it to work. If you apply the law inconsistently it breaks down and the people begin to lose their trust in the law and their government. Inconsistent application of the law seems unfair to me and laws designed to be inconsistent seem more unfair to me.
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Well your position seems to have an emotional rather than a logical basis. If you hate the rich and want them to suffer then it makes sense for them to be profiled by the police but laws shouldn't be made because you or anyone else hates the rich.
I once got a ticket for my left blinker blinking too fast after the cop pulled over my crappy car, tried to write me a ticket for no insurance, but I had just gotten it and had an insurance card. Grumbling he immediately went to town finding something else he could nail me with to get his ticket quota.
In any state where insurance is required, people with shitty cars (who probably cant affoard to insure them) are an extra source of revenue for the police department, because the state mandates you have insurance, provides no subsidy if you can't afford it, and provides no mass transit as an alternative. So if you're a poor college kid who can't afford the ludicrous premiums (seriously, they're easily double in states where it's mandatory, they've already started hiking the fuck out of liability prices in wisconsin in salivating anticipation of the law change) you can either quit going to college or hide from police cars.
/rant
Are the two situations analogous?
No.
They are wholly separate and I don't care about the bike at all.
Get the ticket and then protest it. This is how you do it if you want to actually do something rather than just uselessly whine.
It's not emotional. I'm just not going to give you the entirety of Das Kapital, Negri, Adorno and Foucault in one post.
It's part of the fact that our laws and systems of justice are set up in such a way that the chance to get a favorable verdict (much like everything else in this country) depends on how deep your pockets are.
A progressive, income percentage-based fine system is truly the correct framework to punish anyone. I argue that a larger burden in pure mathematics outside of context needs to be shared by the wealthy.
I'm pretty sure they won't drag you down to the station just because you weren't carrying an ID with you while you were riding your bike. I guess if you gave a name like "Mr. X" they might, but reasonably they couldn't.
What are you talking about? Don't switch arguments on me. We are talking about profiling the rich. We are talking about specifically pulling someone over because they are rich. That is what was said at the beginning of the quote tree. Profiling is wrong, I didn't say anything about scaling the fines to the person's income. I don't really care about how it's done, I prefer a points system instead of fines altogether.
The original statement in response to the red was pointed out the absurdity of worrying that the "rich get profiled".
The issue with the points system is, again, that the burden ends up on those who are not wealthy in a much less fair method of distribution. Scaling, financial fines are the only way put forward to ensure that the penalty's impact is "fair".
Because a cop who pulls over a cyclist for a california stop certainly has better things to be doing with his time, right?
How could they not? Are you going to try and argue that law enforcement is a completely homogeneous group where everyone hates poor people and no one is going to go after the rich, who are apparently their masters, even though pulling over one rich person would probably equal pulling over dozens of poor people? The monetary incentive for pulling over someone who appears wealthy would be enormous.
Hey if they hate poor people so much they should want to pull over a few rich people too because then they can use the extra money to buy tazers to shoot at poor people.
This is a bad fucking idea at it's very core.
Yeah. We're done. The responses are well documented in the thread already.
When cops start profiling the rich, that'll be the day.
Seriously worrying about unduly profiling the rich is a laughable thing if you have any conception of how every facet of criminal justice works at this moment
This isn't about penalties, this is about preventing unsafe conditions on the road. If you suspend someone's license and they're caught again driving then they can be put in jail and they are definitely off the road. You can fine someone until the cow's come home but a driver with a history of reckless driving is still on the road. Fining is ancillary. It's an extra penalty, but it doesn't serve the ultimate goal which should be road safety as well as a points system that eventually results in jail time and the physical removal of an offender from the road.
Edit: I read the thread, I've participated in the thread, and if my arguments were already refuted I wouldn't be making them.
Thank you. That was all I was saying, originally.
Yep, even if the rich are unduly profiled, they can defend themselves legally.
A cop will not give a bunch of bullshit fines to someone in a Ferrari, because that guy will sue the department
And what separates bullshit fines with reasonable fines in the eyes of a rich person? Why would they pay a bunch of money out to the police at all if they can just sue a bunch of people and get out of it? So how will this proposed system of fines actually work if the rich can just sue?
Cop: what's your name?
me: Harold Smith.
Cop: Oh yeah? Prove it!
me: uhh, I can't. I don't have any ID with me, and I just moved here.
Cop: Maybe you'll be more cooperative after a few days in the slammer! Book em, boys!
Is that how you think it'll go down?
It wouldn't be the first time that happened.
LOL
Oh no, no, absolutely not. There is no way that high-performance vehicles get to go faster just because the idiots behind the wheel can afford to buy one. Just because the car is designed to go fast doesn't mean the road is safe at that speed or the driver is capable of driving competently at that speed.
Hell no.
Wait, isn't this America you're talking about? There's no national ID database, only a driver's ID database, and there's no reason for a cyclist to appear on it. What records could they possibly check?
And, likewise, did American police start dragging people to the station for not being in a database that, chances are, you would be? o_O
Man, they probably would. Donut shop doesn't close for another few hours, plenty of time to bring in this scumbag.
Telling a cop what he doesn't want to hear is enough to get you brought down to the station.
In a perfect world, it shouldn't happen, but in the real world it does.
top gear lap times:
11) 1:19.0 - Enzo Ferrari
121) 1:32.2 - Ford Focus RS Mk I
Same driver, Same course. Maybe a new class of drivers license, so you can ensure the driver skill level and special license plates. Autobahn fatality rates 60% of the US death rate with no speed limit. "The overall safety record of autobahnen is comparable to other European motorways and motorways are safer than other road types. A 2005 study by the Federal Minister of the Interior indicated there were an equal number of accidents per kilometer on the autobahn in sections without any speed limits."
they can't just hold you until you prove your identity, when they have nothing to charge you with except a traffic violation. That's blatantly illegal.
How do they check who you are? o_O
I'm John Smith. No you're not, tell us who you are. No, I'm John Smith. No you're not, show us your national ID card whoops there isn't one.
Okay, so he brings you down to the station. What happens next? What can they possibly charge you with?
Cops can do anything they want to you for any reason, so the best bet is to cooperate.
Justice does not have to be fair. Being fair isn't being just. A lot of the problematic ideas in this debate are coming from this myth that fairness and justice are the same thing (or at least parallel lines high-fiving each other).
I'm okay with a system of justice being slightly unfair to the rich because they can afford to equal out the unfairness.
While on the other hand, being unfair to a group of people who don't have the means to level the playing field doesn't sit as well to me.
The system is going to be unfair somewhere. It's run by people. I would rather it's unfair to people who can handle it, rather than, people who have no choice but to take it.
And why would we go to all of this trouble exactly? What's wrong with not going 100mph? And how widespread would this be? Do you want a mixture of ordinary cars going 70-80 driving on the same roads as cars going 100mph or more?
Or maybe we can just do our best to eliminate unfairness altogether rather than giving up because it's too hard. And maybe we can not intentionally craft legislation knowing that it's unfair.
And justice and fairness are linked. Justice depends on the consistent application of law. It's one of the foundations of law which allows it to work. If you apply the law inconsistently it breaks down and the people begin to lose their trust in the law and their government. Inconsistent application of the law seems unfair to me and laws designed to be inconsistent seem more unfair to me.