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Robots, AI, and how we treat them

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Posts

  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    If you agree that children who grow up in homes where rape and abuse are regular events are in an environment that desensitizes them to both crimes, then I think the fact that such children often grow up to be abusers themselves lends credence to the harm of desensitization.

    That said, you still need to establish that a robot can possibly become indistinguishable from a human to the degree where an experience with a robot can affect how you treat humans. I'm not sure that's the case since rape porn has existed forever and doesn't seem to encourage real-life rape. Raping a CG schoolgirl on your computer or collecting faux-rape DVDs doesn't, as far as I know, make you more inclined to rape yourself.

    Furthermore, people are capable of engaging in rape fantasies with each other without becoming rapists themselves. The fact that it's known to be a role-playing thing provides a necessary distance from the real-life act, which is what makes it possible to stomach the fantasy act in the first place. In order to remove this distance through robot sex, you'd have to actually make the robot a non-consenting partner, and if you're doing that then you're already psychologically a rapist before you've even used the robot for sex.

  • LanzLanz Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    I'm really confused if Pony is just avoiding my question about where an actor's perceptions of the object which they are acting upon fit in, or if I'm just missing it in a massive text wall. ohdearh.png
    Barcardi wrote: »
    Huh, i read this thread hoping to figure out the plot to ghost in the shell and if anyone in that series was even human, or if that psychologically/philosophically even matters... and i end up reading about robot rape. Oh, internet.

    OT, but...
    Spoiler:

    SEGATA SANSHIRO! LIVE AGAIN!
    Lanz.gif
  • CasualCasual Revolver Ocelot (Revolver Ocelot)Registered User regular
    edited January 2010

    Furthermore, people are capable of engaging in rape fantasies with each other without becoming rapists themselves. The fact that it's known to be a role-playing thing provides a necessary distance from the real-life act, which is what makes it possible to stomach the fantasy act in the first place. In order to remove this distance through robot sex, you'd have to actually make the robot a non-consenting partner, and if you're doing that then you're already psychologically a rapist before you've even used the robot for sex.

    My point exactly regardless of robot involvement or not this is essentially a form of role play and thus detached from reality.

    Revolver Ocelot
    i write amazing erotic fiction

    its all about anthropomorphic dicks doing everyday things like buying shoes for their scrotum-feet
  • emnmnmeemnmnme Heard about this on conservative radio:Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    The OP is talking about indulgence, though. First you get a taste for it, then a hunger, then it becomes guilt-free.

    I'm wondering, does a serial rapist feel disgusted when he sees evidence of what another serial rapist has done? When serial rapists meet, are they giving each other high fives or angry looks?

    easybossfight_zps4752c132.gif
  • ThirithThirith Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Casual wrote: »
    My point exactly regardless of robot involvement or not this is essentially a form of role play and thus detached from reality.
    I think Pony's said this umpteen times already, but it isn't necessarily as binary as you seem to think. There are many instances of roleplay that evoke real emotional reactions. Knowing that you're engaging in roleplaying doesn't automatically mean that any feelings and reactions connected with the act you're roleplaying aren't present. "It's not real" is too simplistic, because the mind doesn't do simple, binary distinctions between a thing and its representation.

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  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Thirith wrote: »
    There are many instances of roleplay that evoke real emotional reactions. Knowing that you're engaging in roleplaying doesn't automatically mean that any feelings and reactions connected with the act you're roleplaying aren't present.

    well, of course; why else would you role play?

    the point is that role play is something people already do, and replacing a consensual partner with a robot probably isn't that big a jump

    gkcmatch_zps97480250.jpg
    remember pluto? Once a planet but now a pseudo
    funny how information changes the facts that you know
  • ThirithThirith Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Dyscord wrote: »
    the point is that role play is something people already do, and replacing a consensual partner with a robot probably isn't that big a jump
    I could imagine that one difference is that with a consenting partner the 'fictional rape' is framed by non-roleplay. The people involved also interact in a setting that highlights the roleplay as just that. With the realistic animatronic fuckpuppet that non-fantasy framework needn't be there.

    Eagles on Pogo Sticks: Musings of a Goofy Beast
    http://goofybeast.wordpress.com
  • PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Thirith wrote: »
    Dyscord wrote: »
    the point is that role play is something people already do, and replacing a consensual partner with a robot probably isn't that big a jump
    I could imagine that one difference is that with a consenting partner the 'fictional rape' is framed by non-roleplay. The people involved also interact in a setting that highlights the roleplay as just that. With the realistic animatronic fuckpuppet that non-fantasy framework needn't be there.

    Yeah, that's where one of the primary differences is. With consensual roleplaying with another human being, you are still interacting with a person you are empathizing with and you care how they feel and think.

    With a robot, it's an object. Objectification and detachment from the other party being an equal or other being worthy of respect is how humans justify all sorts of atrocities. I don't think that engaging and honing that mindset has a healthy effect on your interactions with other people.

    It's not going to default to making you a rapist or murderer, but when you are making a regular practice of dulling your instinctive emotional responses to the simulation, it will have an effect on your response to the real thing. The more accurate the simulation, the more the mindset bleeds through.

    Unless you decide to draw a line somewhere in how accurate a simulation you are willing to engage in, there will come a point where emotionally the difference doesn't matter.

    I think physical simulation via human facsimile robots is where we should draw that line.

  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    I could imagine that one difference is that with a consenting partner the 'fictional rape' is framed by non-roleplay. The people involved also interact in a setting that highlights the roleplay as just that. With the realistic animatronic fuckpuppet that non-fantasy framework needn't be there.
    Doesn't having to turn your robot-lover on and then clean it/put it in the closet when you're done constitute a non-fantasy framework?

  • ಠ_ರೃಠ_ರೃ __BANNED USERS
    edited January 2010
    Pony wrote: »
    Can't just have a discussion on what people think and feel on a subject, no, no, can't have that, the only valid debates are ones where things can be objectively proven instead of thought about and explored from a basis of what people think on the subject.

    When people tend to argue from their feelings instead of facts, it does not end well for them around here sir.

    New Year’s Eve is the best. For one magical night, even the most straight-laced babe feels socially obligated to get blindingly drunk and act like a total whore. Pretty daddy’s girls with blond hair and tight asses swill cheap champagne and toss back shots of peach schnapps until they’re flashing their big, firm tits at any chump who wanders by.
  • CasualCasual Revolver Ocelot (Revolver Ocelot)Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Pony wrote: »
    Thirith wrote: »
    Dyscord wrote: »
    the point is that role play is something people already do, and replacing a consensual partner with a robot probably isn't that big a jump
    I could imagine that one difference is that with a consenting partner the 'fictional rape' is framed by non-roleplay. The people involved also interact in a setting that highlights the roleplay as just that. With the realistic animatronic fuckpuppet that non-fantasy framework needn't be there.

    Yeah, that's where one of the primary differences is. With consensual roleplaying with another human being, you are still interacting with a person you are empathizing with and you care how they feel and think.

    With a robot, it's an object. Objectification and detachment from the other party being an equal or other being worthy of respect is how humans justify all sorts of atrocities. I don't think that engaging and honing that mindset has a healthy effect on your interactions with other people.

    It's not going to default to making you a rapist or murderer, but when you are making a regular practice of dulling your instinctive emotional responses to the simulation, it will have an effect on your response to the real thing. The more accurate the simulation, the more the mindset bleeds through.

    Unless you decide to draw a line somewhere in how accurate a simulation you are willing to engage in, there will come a point where emotionally the difference doesn't matter.

    I think physical simulation via human facsimile robots is where we should draw that line.


    But again you haven't addressed my point that a significant emotional investment in the idea would probably be necessary to buy a rapebot in the first place.

    Revolver Ocelot
    i write amazing erotic fiction

    its all about anthropomorphic dicks doing everyday things like buying shoes for their scrotum-feet
  • KamarKamar Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    I still think "The Line" is already drawn and isn't going to get any less real just because the simulations are closer to it. Rape versus not-actually-rape is a fucking huge line. Do you really think people who watched and enjoyed something like Hostel would enjoy seeing the real thing done to real people?

    I really just can't comprehend this idea that being able to divorce fantasy from fiction makes you some sort of psychopath, as you seem to be suggesting with some of your responses to J, Pony. Everyone does it, everyone is capable of it; the ones that don't generally are unable to function in society.

    You seem to be saying there is some intangible difference between pretending to do something one way and pretending to do it another, and I really can't see any reason that would be true, much less actual evidence of it. People know hurting other people is wrong, as a general rule; no amount of fantasy is going to change that fact in anyone but the severely mentally ill.

  • LawndartLawndart Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Pony wrote: »
    jakobagger wrote: »
    And the harm could be worse still. Professor Jennings Bryant, a US psychologist, wanted to discover what happens to men when they are exposed to massive amounts of porn. His test subjects quickly shifted from being happy with vanilla porn, and started to seek out more and more extreme strands. Men who before had said they found violent or rape-fantasy porn unacceptable were soon eagerly consuming it.

    At the next link in the chain, Canadian psychologists James Check and Ted Guloien exposed men to massive amounts of rape-fantasy porn, and discovered that they became more and more likely to agree with statements like "rape isn't so bad", "women complain about rape too much" and "some women enjoy being raped" as they were exposed to more and more porn. So is one of the features of this new age - in addition to the welcome growth in sexual openness - a wave of increased sexual assaults?

    source: http://www.johannhari.com/2006/05/29/how-porn-has-transformed-teenage-life

    reposted from my last post, think it got lost in static. There are actual studies in support of the OP's point, apparently.

    That's interesting!

    It's one of those things I thought was probably the case but didn't have much in the way of scientific backing.

    I feel compelled to point out that, despite predictions of increased acceptance and availability of porn leading to increased sexual assaults, at least in the United States the number of forcible rapes has decreased rather dramatically since the early '90s.

  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Pony wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    This whole argument is dumb, because it is based on pure speculation. There's absolutely no sound empirical reason to think that this would have a net negative effect.

    You can make up all the scenarios and thought experiments you want, but without hard statistical evidence your opinion means jack shit.

    This, pretty much.

    Pony, in order for your argument to be valid, you need to demonstrate that both:


    a) Desensitization occurs in humans as a result of using sex toy robotics to play out rape fantasies.

    and

    b) Desensitization of rape brings negative consequences.


    Science is about speculation and data, not just the former thing.

    You fucking people. God forbid people have an ethical debate based on opinion and speculation! No, no, it has to be a pissing contest of statistical data and SCIENCE!

    Can't just have a discussion on what people think and feel on a subject, no, no, can't have that, the only valid debates are ones where things can be objectively proven instead of thought about and explored from a basis of what people think on the subject.

    If you think this thread is pointless and the discussion meaningless because it's purely speculative... don't fucking post in it.

    When the only basis you have is some vague imaginings about what you think people might be feeling in some hypothetical situation, you have nothing to base a discussion on, or a moral or even practical judgment. It's pure fear mongering.

    I think people are sufficiently rational to separate fantasy from reality. You apparently don't. Good discussion.

    While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
  • AridholAridhol Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Kamar wrote: »
    I still think "The Line" is already drawn and isn't going to get any less real just because the simulations are closer to it. Rape versus not-actually-rape is a fucking huge line. Do you really think people who watched and enjoyed something like Hostel would enjoy seeing the real thing done to real people?

    I really just can't comprehend this idea that being able to divorce fantasy from fiction makes you some sort of psychopath, as you seem to be suggesting with some of your responses to J, Pony. Everyone does it, everyone is capable of it; the ones that don't generally are unable to function in society.

    You seem to be saying there is some intangible difference between pretending to do something one way and pretending to do it another, and I really can't see any reason that would be true, much less actual evidence of it. People know hurting other people is wrong, as a general rule; no amount of fantasy is going to change that fact in anyone but the severely mentally ill.


    Understanding that the tactile difference presents a different experience I would still think that it is more in the realm of simulation (VR, games etc.) than reality. Basically I do not believe that robots will ever be an effective substitute for a human, not matter the level of simulated realism. I understand that it may appear we're going in that direction but going in the direction and arriving are two very different things (see space colonization, jetpacks)

  • Bliss 101Bliss 101 Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Lawndart wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    jakobagger wrote: »
    And the harm could be worse still. Professor Jennings Bryant, a US psychologist, wanted to discover what happens to men when they are exposed to massive amounts of porn. His test subjects quickly shifted from being happy with vanilla porn, and started to seek out more and more extreme strands. Men who before had said they found violent or rape-fantasy porn unacceptable were soon eagerly consuming it.

    At the next link in the chain, Canadian psychologists James Check and Ted Guloien exposed men to massive amounts of rape-fantasy porn, and discovered that they became more and more likely to agree with statements like "rape isn't so bad", "women complain about rape too much" and "some women enjoy being raped" as they were exposed to more and more porn. So is one of the features of this new age - in addition to the welcome growth in sexual openness - a wave of increased sexual assaults?

    source: http://www.johannhari.com/2006/05/29/how-porn-has-transformed-teenage-life

    reposted from my last post, think it got lost in static. There are actual studies in support of the OP's point, apparently.

    That's interesting!

    It's one of those things I thought was probably the case but didn't have much in the way of scientific backing.

    I feel compelled to point out that, despite predictions of increased acceptance and availability of porn leading to increased sexual assaults, at least in the United States the number of forcible rapes has decreased rather dramatically since the early '90s.

    I feel compelled to point out that the table can be used to support the exact opposite of what you think it says. Violent crime in general has gone down, but forcible rape rates haven't decreased as much as the overall violent crime rate; forcible rape now represents a bigger portion of all violent crime than it did in the 90s.

    MSL59.jpg
  • LawndartLawndart Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Bliss 101 wrote: »
    Lawndart wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    jakobagger wrote: »
    And the harm could be worse still. Professor Jennings Bryant, a US psychologist, wanted to discover what happens to men when they are exposed to massive amounts of porn. His test subjects quickly shifted from being happy with vanilla porn, and started to seek out more and more extreme strands. Men who before had said they found violent or rape-fantasy porn unacceptable were soon eagerly consuming it.

    At the next link in the chain, Canadian psychologists James Check and Ted Guloien exposed men to massive amounts of rape-fantasy porn, and discovered that they became more and more likely to agree with statements like "rape isn't so bad", "women complain about rape too much" and "some women enjoy being raped" as they were exposed to more and more porn. So is one of the features of this new age - in addition to the welcome growth in sexual openness - a wave of increased sexual assaults?

    source: http://www.johannhari.com/2006/05/29/how-porn-has-transformed-teenage-life

    reposted from my last post, think it got lost in static. There are actual studies in support of the OP's point, apparently.

    That's interesting!

    It's one of those things I thought was probably the case but didn't have much in the way of scientific backing.

    I feel compelled to point out that, despite predictions of increased acceptance and availability of porn leading to increased sexual assaults, at least in the United States the number of forcible rapes has decreased rather dramatically since the early '90s.

    I feel compelled to point out that the table can be used to support the exact opposite of what you think it says. Violent crime in general has gone down, but forcible rape rates haven't decreased as much as the overall violent crime rate; forcible rape now represents a bigger portion of all violent crime than it did in the 90s.

    Except that the total number of and per-capita instances of forcible rape are now much lower than they were in the early '90s. Since the availability and prevalence of pornography has skyrocketed since then, predicting that said increase in availability and prevalence of pornography will lead to "a wave of increased sexual assaults" doesn't in any way jibe with reality.

    Unless you're claiming that without the rise of internet porn that somehow instances of forcible rape would have decreased even further, but there's absolutely no way to prove or disprove that claim.

    So yeah, the "all that porno on the internet is going to brainwash dudes into going on a raping spree" bullshit is purely fearmongering hyperbole.

  • PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    I'm pretty much done with this thread, to be honest. There were good points made, good arguments to be had, but now by page 9 we've got people who aren't reading the rest of the thread and are repeating the same points and arguments that have already been addressed.

    So, it was cool, and I enjoyed it, but I don't really have a reason to continue.

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