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Proving a point.

CasualCasual Ho Ho HoFlap Flap Flap Registered User regular
edited January 2010 in Help / Advice Forum
I am trying to make the following point to my friend,

If I have a legitimate windows key but use it to activate a pirated copy of windows is is STILL illegal because I still pirated the software.


He is convinced that having a licence is all that matters and I am trying to prove otherwise. He maintains that having a licence to use the software makes the source irrelevant.

Which one of us is right?

Casual on
i write amazing erotic fiction

its all about anthropomorphic dicks doing everyday things like buying shoes for their scrotum-feet
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Posts

  • RUNN1NGMANRUNN1NGMAN Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Pretty sure your friend is right. I mean, I'm not even sure it's possible to pirate software that requires an activation key. If the version you have has somehow been hacked so that you don't need a valid key, then that would definitely be a no-no.

  • matt has a problemmatt has a problem Six pack on a dick Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    As long as the key is only being used to activate the number of copies of Windows it was intended for, then no, it's not piracy. The 1's and 0's on the DVD are the exact same 1's and 0's on any other DVD. It's the key (license) that is being pirated when you don't have a legitimate key.

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  • eternalbleternalbl Registered User
    edited January 2010
    The license is what you're purchasing to use windows (whatever version) on the computer it's installed on. The disc is just a method of getting windows onto that computer.

    Spoiler:
  • CasualCasual Ho Ho Ho Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    You can obtain pirated copies of windows but activate them with a key you own.

    Say if I had to wipe my hard drive and instead of buying a disc off microsoft with a copy of windows I get a pirate copy and activate it with my own keys it's still illegal right?

    EDIT: Seriously? I thought piracy was illegal full stop.

    i write amazing erotic fiction

    its all about anthropomorphic dicks doing everyday things like buying shoes for their scrotum-feet
  • eternalbleternalbl Registered User
    edited January 2010
    Casual wrote: »
    You can obtain pirated copies of windows but activate them with a key you own.

    Say if I had to wipe my hard drive and instead of buying a disc off microsoft with a copy of windows I get a pirate copy and activate it with my own keys it's still illegal right?

    Not unless there's something illegal about downloading a copy of a disc. You have a right to run a copy of windows on that computer as long as that key is only being used on one machine. You aren't purchasing the disc as much as you're purchasing the license and key.

    Spoiler:
  • CasualCasual Ho Ho Ho Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    eternalbl wrote: »
    Casual wrote: »
    You can obtain pirated copies of windows but activate them with a key you own.

    Say if I had to wipe my hard drive and instead of buying a disc off microsoft with a copy of windows I get a pirate copy and activate it with my own keys it's still illegal right?

    Not unless there's something illegal about downloading a copy of a disc. You have a right to run a copy of windows on that computer as long as that key is only being used on one machine. You aren't purchasing the disc as much as you're purchasing the license and key.

    My point was that microsoft sells discs of windows as back ups without licences attached so getting it for free off bit torrent can't be legal right?

    i write amazing erotic fiction

    its all about anthropomorphic dicks doing everyday things like buying shoes for their scrotum-feet
  • RUNN1NGMANRUNN1NGMAN Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Casual wrote: »
    You can obtain pirated copies of windows but activate them with a key you own.

    Say if I had to wipe my hard drive and instead of buying a disc off microsoft with a copy of windows I get a pirate copy and activate it with my own keys it's still illegal right?

    Well, getting a pirate copy of Windows and installing it is silly-goosy for a number of reasons unrelated to what you seem to take issue with.

    But if you have a valid key (for instance, the one that came with your desktop when you bought it), there's no problem with borrowing a buddy's Windows disc.

  • matt has a problemmatt has a problem Six pack on a dick Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Casual wrote: »
    eternalbl wrote: »
    Casual wrote: »
    You can obtain pirated copies of windows but activate them with a key you own.

    Say if I had to wipe my hard drive and instead of buying a disc off microsoft with a copy of windows I get a pirate copy and activate it with my own keys it's still illegal right?

    Not unless there's something illegal about downloading a copy of a disc. You have a right to run a copy of windows on that computer as long as that key is only being used on one machine. You aren't purchasing the disc as much as you're purchasing the license and key.

    My point was that microsoft sells discs of windows as back ups without licences attached so getting it for free off bit torrent can't be legal right?
    You're not actually paying for "Windows" in that case, you're paying the cost for the physical product, shipping and handling.

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  • EggyToastEggyToast Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Linux discs in the store cost money too.

    Windows makes it very clear when you install their software that the license is what you're paying for, and they also expressly state that you can use your license on different hardware over time as long as they're not both activated. So yes, the license is what you're paying for.

    The act of downloading itself might be illegal, but installing Windows with a legal key is legal. They are two separate acts.

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  • CasualCasual Ho Ho Ho Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Casual wrote: »
    eternalbl wrote: »
    Casual wrote: »
    You can obtain pirated copies of windows but activate them with a key you own.

    Say if I had to wipe my hard drive and instead of buying a disc off microsoft with a copy of windows I get a pirate copy and activate it with my own keys it's still illegal right?

    Not unless there's something illegal about downloading a copy of a disc. You have a right to run a copy of windows on that computer as long as that key is only being used on one machine. You aren't purchasing the disc as much as you're purchasing the license and key.

    My point was that microsoft sells discs of windows as back ups without licences attached so getting it for free off bit torrent can't be legal right?
    You're not actually paying for "Windows" in that case, you're paying the cost for the physical product, shipping and handling.

    Not entirely, the shipping makes up most of the cost but the disc still costs something.

    i write amazing erotic fiction

    its all about anthropomorphic dicks doing everyday things like buying shoes for their scrotum-feet
  • MrDelishMrDelish Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    I was under the impression that since Windows lets you download the install DVD that you wouldn't even need to download it by a pirated site.

    I also don't know if there are implications in downloading the pirated version that probably has serials or a keygen included.

  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu ___________PIGEON _________San Diego, CA Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Microsoft doesn't care how you get Windows as long as you have a valid key. That is, if you borrow a disc from a friend, buy it from Microsoft, download an .iso from Microsoft, use a copy you found in the dumpster, etc. you're not doing anything illegal. Downloading a copy of the disc from a torrent isn't any different. If the copy has been altered in any way such as to circumvent copy protection, you're violating the DMCA, but that's different.

  • japanjapan Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Casual wrote: »
    Not entirely, the shipping makes up most of the cost but the disc still costs something.

    This is true, but it's pennies, literally. Bulk pressed discs cost nothing in practical terms next to the cost of the licence.

  • CasualCasual Ho Ho Ho Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    japan wrote: »
    Casual wrote: »
    Not entirely, the shipping makes up most of the cost but the disc still costs something.

    This is true, but it's pennies, literally. Bulk pressed discs cost nothing in practical terms next to the cost of the licence.

    Yeah but it still means you're torrenting something for free that you should be paying for. This is where my it's still technically illegal argument comes into play.

    Isn't getting something from an illegal source illegal regardless of other concerns?

    i write amazing erotic fiction

    its all about anthropomorphic dicks doing everyday things like buying shoes for their scrotum-feet
  • XaquinXaquin Right behind you!Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Casual wrote: »
    japan wrote: »
    Casual wrote: »
    Not entirely, the shipping makes up most of the cost but the disc still costs something.

    This is true, but it's pennies, literally. Bulk pressed discs cost nothing in practical terms next to the cost of the licence.

    Yeah but it still means you're torrenting something for free that you should be paying for. This is where my it's still technically illegal argument comes into play.

    Isn't getting something from an illegal source illegal regardless of other concerns?

    The physical product isn't what costs money though.

    I lost my Warcraft 3 CDs a million years ago, but wrote down the key. I can enter that key into Blizzards website and DL the program because they recognize that it has already been paid for.

  • CauldCauld Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    I don't know about all this. I once tried to activate a copy of windows using a cd-key sticker from my broken laptop. Microsoft told me I couldn't do this when I called.

  • XaquinXaquin Right behind you!Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Cauld wrote: »
    I don't know about all this. I once tried to activate a copy of windows using a cd-key sticker from my broken laptop. Microsoft told me I couldn't do this when I called.

    That's strange. I've reinstalled my copy of XP probably 7 or 8 times due to HD upgrades.

  • adytumadytum Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Casual wrote: »
    japan wrote: »
    Casual wrote: »
    Not entirely, the shipping makes up most of the cost but the disc still costs something.

    This is true, but it's pennies, literally. Bulk pressed discs cost nothing in practical terms next to the cost of the licence.

    Yeah but it still means you're torrenting something for free that you should be paying for. This is where my it's still technically illegal argument comes into play.

    Isn't getting something from an illegal source illegal regardless of other concerns?

    But it's not technically illegal. Bittorrent is not technically illegal. Nothing about the situation you're describing is technically illegal.

    etxvv5.jpg
  • eternalbleternalbl Registered User
    edited January 2010
    Cauld wrote: »
    I don't know about all this. I once tried to activate a copy of windows using a cd-key sticker from my broken laptop. Microsoft told me I couldn't do this when I called.

    You have to have a key that matches the type of disc you're using. If it was an OEM copy of windows, it wouldn't work with a retail disc and vice-versa. I guess what I'm saying is it was probably not possible technically even if it was a key for Windows XP home OEM and a CD for windows XP home retail.

    Spoiler:
  • CauldCauld Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    eternalbl wrote: »
    Cauld wrote: »
    I don't know about all this. I once tried to activate a copy of windows using a cd-key sticker from my broken laptop. Microsoft told me I couldn't do this when I called.

    You have to have a key that matches the type of disc you're using. If it was an OEM copy of windows, it wouldn't work with a retail disc and vice-versa. I guess what I'm saying is it was probably not possible technically even if it was a key for Windows XP home OEM and a CD for windows XP home retail.
    We never even got into that point in the conversation. The woman just said that if it came pre-installed I couldn't use that key on another computer. I wasn't going to argue with her, but I'm not dismissing the possibility that she was wrong or that her department couldn't handle it.

    Edit: I did make clear that the computer it was preinstalled on was broken and that this would be the only computer the key was used on.

  • eternalbleternalbl Registered User
    edited January 2010
    Cauld wrote: »
    eternalbl wrote: »
    Cauld wrote: »
    I don't know about all this. I once tried to activate a copy of windows using a cd-key sticker from my broken laptop. Microsoft told me I couldn't do this when I called.

    You have to have a key that matches the type of disc you're using. If it was an OEM copy of windows, it wouldn't work with a retail disc and vice-versa. I guess what I'm saying is it was probably not possible technically even if it was a key for Windows XP home OEM and a CD for windows XP home retail.
    We never even got into that point in the conversation. The woman just said that if it came pre-installed I couldn't use that key on another computer. I wasn't going to argue with her, but I'm not dismissing the possibility that she was wrong or that her department couldn't handle it.

    Edit: I did make clear that the computer it was preinstalled on was broken and that this would be the only computer the key was used on.

    Wierd, and actually re-reading, if you were at the point of activating the key obviously worked for the install.

    Anytime I'm re-activating windows I treat the Customer Service rep like I treat the cops when I get pulled over: Give them as little information as possible except what's necessary. I've used the same copy of windows XP for.... I don't even know how long, but reinstalling it on at least a yearly basis. I believe they give you 3 or 4 activations before they start hassling you with phoning them and I've phoned them probably 10 times or more. Every time, I just give them the key, tell them it's just being installed on one computer, tell them I'm reinstalling for shits and giggles and they give me my activation code. I'm actually surprised to hear of someone having problems, because I was under the impression the whole test was if you had the balls to call you probably had a legit windows key - they always made it that easy.

    Spoiler:
  • JasconiusJasconius sword criminal Flo-ridaRegistered User regular
    edited January 2010
    It's a gray area at worst, but generally speaking, you paid the money, you've got the receipt, you've got the key, get the disc wherever you want to from, it doesn't matter.

    You pay for the key, not the disc.

  • CasualCasual Ho Ho Ho Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    adytum wrote: »
    Casual wrote: »
    japan wrote: »
    Casual wrote: »
    Not entirely, the shipping makes up most of the cost but the disc still costs something.

    This is true, but it's pennies, literally. Bulk pressed discs cost nothing in practical terms next to the cost of the licence.

    Yeah but it still means you're torrenting something for free that you should be paying for. This is where my it's still technically illegal argument comes into play.

    Isn't getting something from an illegal source illegal regardless of other concerns?

    But it's not technically illegal. Bittorrent is not technically illegal. Nothing about the situation you're describing is technically illegal.

    Ah well that kind of settles it. My original argument was that he uses bittorrented mp3s in his work as a DJ and he passed it off as fine because the places he plays at have a licence. I assumed getting them from bittorrent for free made it illegal, the windows thing was a side argument.

    I guess in the face of everyone saying I'm wrong I will admit defeat. He's gonna be smug about this.

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  • MushroomStickMushroomStick Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Oem discs from prebuilt computers can recognize that they're being installed on hardware made by someone else.

  • eternalbleternalbl Registered User
    edited January 2010
    Oem discs from prebuilt computers may recognize that they're being installed on hardware made by someone else.

    Spoiler:
  • DirtyDirtyVagrantDirtyDirtyVagrant Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    When you purchase software, you are purchasing a 'seat,' which is to say that you are purchasing it by the user.

    If you have a legitimate key that you payed for, then the source of the download is irrelevant. That said, you should be real careful about where you download shit like that from.

  • SideshowxelaSideshowxela Registered User
    edited January 2010
    I think piracy implies that you're obtaining something without paying for it. You've paid for a licensed windows key, so it's yours to use. Digitally, your windows install software is identical to what you would find online or on a friend's disc; it shouldn't make any difference.

  • matt has a problemmatt has a problem Six pack on a dick Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    eternalbl wrote: »
    Oem discs from prebuilt computers may recognize that they're being installed on hardware made by someone else.
    The keys are what are important here. Each company gets a recognizable subset of keys. When Win7 got cracked, it was using Lenovo's set.

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  • eternalbleternalbl Registered User
    edited January 2010
    eternalbl wrote: »
    Oem discs from prebuilt computers may recognize that they're being installed on hardware made by someone else.
    The keys are what are important here. Each company gets a recognizable subset of keys. When Win7 got cracked, it was using Lenovo's set.

    I was replying to the original comment saying that the disk can, which made it sound like it definitely will, when what I've found is that it might, but won't necessarily.

    Edit: as in some disks do this, and others don't. There also is the whole OEM disks having different... something or other... that makes it require you to, for your example use a lenovo's disk with a lenovo's key.

    Spoiler:
  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    This is sort of a murky issue.

    On the one hand, the CD key represents your license to use a copy of windows. However, the copy of windows you are licensed to use is often a specific copy. Prebuilts often come with keys that are locked to the mobo bios, for example, and the EULA may restrict you to the copy you actually bought.

    Morally, I think it's fine. You paid for a copy, you can use a copy. You may not be on absolutely secure legal footing, though.

    edit: and yeah, if you have an OEM disk it's highly probable that even if you get at your key by translating the hexes or something, it won't actually work with a retail copy of windows.

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  • CasualCasual Ho Ho Ho Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Dyscord wrote: »
    This is sort of a murky issue.

    On the one hand, the CD key represents your license to use a copy of windows. However, the copy of windows you are licensed to use is often a specific copy. Prebuilts often come with keys that are locked to the mobo bios, for example, and the EULA may restrict you to the copy you actually bought.

    Morally, I think it's fine. You paid for a copy, you can use a copy. You may not be on absolutely secure legal footing, though.

    This is exactly the point I was getting at. What is the specific legality of this issue? Do we have a firm legal stand point?


    Do the user agreements make torrenting it illegal?

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  • eternalbleternalbl Registered User
    edited January 2010
    What version of windows is this, and did it come on an old computer of yours?

    Spoiler:
  • CasualCasual Ho Ho Ho Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    eternalbl wrote: »
    What version of windows is this, and did it come on an old computer of yours?

    This is purely a hypothetical argument to prove a point. Me and my mate like to have little debates from time to time for the fun of it.

    Though now you mention it I did think of this argument because we once tried to reinstall a copy of vista on a computer using the windows key that came with it. We wiped the drive and tried to install a copy of windows he got off the internet. It didn't work.

    i write amazing erotic fiction

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  • adytumadytum Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Casual wrote: »
    Dyscord wrote: »
    This is sort of a murky issue.

    On the one hand, the CD key represents your license to use a copy of windows. However, the copy of windows you are licensed to use is often a specific copy. Prebuilts often come with keys that are locked to the mobo bios, for example, and the EULA may restrict you to the copy you actually bought.

    Morally, I think it's fine. You paid for a copy, you can use a copy. You may not be on absolutely secure legal footing, though.

    This is exactly the point I was getting at. What is the specific legality of this issue? Do we have a firm legal stand point?


    Do the user agreements make torrenting it illegal?

    As far as I know, no court in the US has ruled that making legitimate backups of properly owned / licensed media is illegal.

    EULA's are not necessarily legally binding. Many include completely unenforceable clauses.

    If you make a backup of a licensed piece of software, that's legal. In fact, many new computers do not some with physical media, and you have to write your own.

    If you make an off-site backup, that's still legal. Just think of bittorrent as a distributed off-site backup. As long as you still own the original license, you're in the clear.

    What you should get on your friend about is his blatant copying of music. Just because it's common in the DJ industry doesn't mean it's legal. And the venue's site-license most certainly does not cover his piracy at home.

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  • CasualCasual Ho Ho Ho Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    adytum wrote: »
    What you should get on your friend about is his blatant copying of music. Just because it's common in the DJ industry doesn't mean it's legal. And the venue's site-license most certainly does not cover his piracy at home.

    Yeah I said to him I was amazed he uses torrented MP3's at commercial venues and claims it's legit because the places have a PRS licence. I still think that can't possibly be legal but I have no way to disprove it either.

    I brought up the windows argument hoping it would prove my point but it turns out he was right about that.

    i write amazing erotic fiction

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  • matt has a problemmatt has a problem Six pack on a dick Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Casual wrote: »
    adytum wrote: »
    What you should get on your friend about is his blatant copying of music. Just because it's common in the DJ industry doesn't mean it's legal. And the venue's site-license most certainly does not cover his piracy at home.

    Yeah I said to him I was amazed he uses torrented MP3's at commercial venues and claims it's legit because the places have a PRS licence. I still think that can't possibly be legal but I have no way to disprove it either.

    I brought up the windows argument hoping it would prove my point but it turns out he was right about that.
    The bit about the mp3's is kind of two parts. It's true that, for live music, just the venue has to have a license to have music performed by someone who isn't the copyright holder. Bars and smaller clubs get dinged by this every now and then, because bands will play a cover, or they'll have music playing over the PA. It usually results in a fine, proportional to the venue and frequency of music being played there.

    However, him downloading the mp3's isn't legal, it's copyright infringement.

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  • CasualCasual Ho Ho Ho Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Casual wrote: »
    adytum wrote: »
    What you should get on your friend about is his blatant copying of music. Just because it's common in the DJ industry doesn't mean it's legal. And the venue's site-license most certainly does not cover his piracy at home.

    Yeah I said to him I was amazed he uses torrented MP3's at commercial venues and claims it's legit because the places have a PRS licence. I still think that can't possibly be legal but I have no way to disprove it either.

    I brought up the windows argument hoping it would prove my point but it turns out he was right about that.
    The bit about the mp3's is kind of two parts. It's true that, for live music, just the venue has to have a license to have music performed by someone who isn't the copyright holder. Bars and smaller clubs get dinged by this every now and then, because bands will play a cover, or they'll have music playing over the PA. It usually results in a fine, proportional to the venue and frequency of music being played there.

    However, him downloading the mp3's isn't legal, it's copyright infringement.

    I didn't think it would be. I thought it would be kind of like having a DVD rental business that was completely legitimate with the exception that all the DVD's were stolen. Having a licence to rent the movies wouldn't make it legal.

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  • ApexMirageApexMirage Registered User
    edited January 2010
    Casual wrote: »
    adytum wrote: »
    What you should get on your friend about is his blatant copying of music. Just because it's common in the DJ industry doesn't mean it's legal. And the venue's site-license most certainly does not cover his piracy at home.

    Yeah I said to him I was amazed he uses torrented MP3's at commercial venues and claims it's legit because the places have a PRS licence. I still think that can't possibly be legal but I have no way to disprove it either.

    I brought up the windows argument hoping it would prove my point but it turns out he was right about that.

    Speaking as a DJ and things I've heard from other DJs;

    There's more than one way to obtain a song. TONS songs are available through blogs and such as a means of the artist promoting their work, which is a legal means to obtain said songs. The problem is that because you can also obtain these same songs through torrents, P2P, a cd you found on the floor or whatever else you like, and there's no concrete way of being able to tell them apart. If he's playing Deadmau'5 FML from his latest album, then it's 'potentially' illegal (not when it was available as a promo item before the album's release though). But if he's playing doctor pipi's electro symphony in c minor, you're probably in the clear.

    Because of this it's easy to simply assume it's all dandy, because honestly it's too complicated for a DJ to do the research for each and every song. Considering that, it's also worth considering that the venue probably doesen't know/care, and wouldn't be willing to do the research itself. The worst case I can see happening is someone representing the artist filling a complaint.

    Anecdote: One of my friends was fined some arbitrary amount for not having the 'receipts' for his songs (from beatport or some such), but has since printed 'fake' ones that honestly no one could possibly give a damn about to verify.

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  • autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    As long as the key is only being used to activate the number of copies of Windows it was intended for, then no, it's not piracy. The 1's and 0's on the DVD are the exact same 1's and 0's on any other DVD. It's the key (license) that is being pirated when you don't have a legitimate key.

    this is actually not the case. the pirated copies are altered so they don't need activation, aren't they?

    sc.jpgsc.jpg
  • autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    doesn't microsoft not care if you download a windows ISO from anywhere, as lon as you're not getting an illegal license with it?

    sc.jpgsc.jpg
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