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X-Men Thread: Regenesis is here, Phil Collins or Peter Gabriel?

TexiKenTexiKen Was it Kierkegaard or Dick Van Patten who said,Registered User regular
edited October 2011 in Graphic Violence
For nearly 25 years, the X-Men were the top of the charts, because everyone wanted to be (and somehow was) a mutant:

X-Men_JimLee_DoorPoster.jpg

But these days have long gone, since the craziest one decided to go and say:

614937-118755_54741_decimation_supe.jpg

So now there's roughly 200 or so mutants left, and they all coincidentally turned out to be the ones we care to read about anyway.

They are off on Magneto's old Asteroid M that is sitting out in San Francisco Bay:

x-menlegacyannual01_cover.jpg

So let's join in the fun of seeing Cyclops try and hold everything together, Magneto trying to be a good guy (again), Namor being a dick, and Wolverine juggling 4 or 5 teams a week. Cue the Jim Lee art!

Xmenjimlee.jpg

xm111516-1.jpg

Oh my God the two coolest X-Men are smoking!!!!!

TexiKen on
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Posts

  • Witch_Hunter_84Witch_Hunter_84 Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Necrosha is really capturing my interest right now. The X-Force has to be my favorite team out there and I have really enjoyed the whole desperate black-ops vibe they're putting out. Can't wait for them to quite literally "stick it" to Salene.

    If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten in your presence.
  • MunchMunch Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    The X-Books are the only comic franchise I have absolutely no desire to read. Primarily because it seems like they, more so than any other franchise, are doomed to repeat the same stories that were being told when I was a kid.

    I think there's something to be said for sticking with the core concept of a franchise, but the X-Men are, as far as I can tell, always hated and feared, being hunted by some insane bigot who inexplicably has access to super-weapons, about to be destroyed by a virus/cure/magic, fleeing to some remote place where they hope to be safe from persecution (surprise, they won't be), and involved in some stupid shit happening in space. I definitely think progress has been made in recent years, as writers have worked to really add some depth and substance to Cyclops, and his relationship with the people around him, including Emma, Jean, Magneto, and the Professor. But I feel like a lot of the characters are still mired in the same muck they were fifteen years ago.

    But I do like X-Factor. So, there's that.

  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    I really need to start buying X-Men comic at some point. I'm looking for a jumping on point to the X-verse similar to how New Avengers: volume 1 is for the Avengers franchise after dissasembled, anybody got any suggestions? I'm thinking Uncanny X-Men: The New Age Volume 1.

  • Witch_Hunter_84Witch_Hunter_84 Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Well, mutants are portrayed as the perpetual oppressed minority, both hated and feared by society for being different. The MU's mutant civil rights has been likened to the African-American civil rights movement, the gay rights movement, etc. It would kind of defeat the purpose of their core story-line if they didn't have to fight for acceptance wherever they went.

    Which is kind of a shame, I really thought that the mutant population's time in San Francisco really suited them well. I agree that putting them all on an island is kind of overdoing it.

    If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten in your presence.
  • MunchMunch Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    I think Morrison hit the right balance of mutant fear and mutant acceptance. Sure there were people that hated mutants, or might at best admit that Cyclops or Storm were, "One'a the good 'uns," but there were also a lot of people interested in mutant culture, style, music, and so on. Which I think is a more realistic and interesting approach.

  • TexiKenTexiKen Was it Kierkegaard or Dick Van Patten who said, Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Solar wrote: »
    I really need to start buying X-Men comic at some point. I'm looking for a jumping on point to the X-verse similar to how New Avengers: volume 1 is for the Avengers franchise after dissasembled, anybody got any suggestions? I'm thinking Uncanny X-Men: The New Age Volume 1.

    I'm gonna be completely honest, Uncanny hasn't been good since #500. Until just recently (around #519), Fraction has had a really hard time telling a coherent story, he has used too many characters, didn't really grasp how to lay out slow burning plot points (he would have a subplot show up in one page then get back to it 6 issues later, you don't do it that way and expect the reader to follow, you give a little bit every issue), and of course, the terrible Greg Land art.

    I would say X-Men Legacy is better, because Mike Carey can do no wrong getting the best out of B-list mutants, and embraces trying to fix the screwed up continuity and gaffes other writers ignore. Supernovas is the first trade of his run.

    The best X-Books right now are X-Men Legacy, X-Factor and X-Men: First Class.

    edit: If you haven't read the X-Men in the last 5-8 years, start with Grant Morrison's New X-Men run, which is available in trades, hard to find hardcovers, and the new three volume New X-Men Ultimate Collection.

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  • Silver_MageSilver_Mage Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    My problem is there seem to be to many X-books, and they seem really confusing. I do want to buy the trades of New X-Men though.

  • wirehead26wirehead26 Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    The only X-related titles I've been bothering to collect in trade format are Brubakers entire Uncanny run along with Messiah Complex, Way's Deadpool, X-Force, Cable, and Messiah War. I do plan on reading Second Coming in collected format as well. I have been getting the Necrosha issues in singles sans the New Mutants stuff. Overall I'd say everything I've read has ranged from decent to great.

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  • FencingsaxFencingsax Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Huh. I agree with people here. How 'bout that.

    It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it
  • ServoServo Super Moderator, Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited February 2010
    so at half price books today, i got an old-timey (1988) printing of the first captain britain stories by alan davis and jamie delano. will it be any good? tune in next week to find out!

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  • ServoServo Super Moderator, Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited February 2010
    UPDATE: page 12 features a sound effect that goes "KREEEEE!" leading me to hope captain britain will fight aliens. several pages later, this seems to not be the case

    newsigs.jpg
  • KeithKeith Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    I always wanted to get into reading X-Men before I started reading comic but now every time I go to read it it just seems really confusing

    it always seems like it has nothing to do with the rest of the Marvel Universe and not in a good way.

    also [bracket] titles are dumb

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  • Witch_Hunter_84Witch_Hunter_84 Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    The main problem with story consistency when it comes to X-Men nowadays is that if you want to keep up with the main continuity you have to buy X-Men: Legacy, Forever, Uncanny, Young X-Men, etc.

    If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten in your presence.
  • ServoServo Super Moderator, Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited February 2010
    it kind of doesn't always have much to do with the rest of the MU. x-men became such a juggernaut (ah ho ho!) in the 80s and 90s that it really grew its own mini-universe within the marvel u.

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  • Silver_MageSilver_Mage Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    How many X-books are out right now, and how many of them actually matter?

  • TexiKenTexiKen Was it Kierkegaard or Dick Van Patten who said, Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Yeah, the X-Men were on their own for so long and the lifeblood of Marvel that ever since the shift went to the Avengers (for the first time, really; the FF and Spidey were bigger than the Avengers were back before Claremont showed up), there has been trouble trying to make them fit in the Marvel universe, while still retaining the bloated title count. I thought they were going somewhere with things like House of M, but that never happened. And then Utopia was just a way to get the team to an island.

    New Mutants doesn't need to exist. Neither does 2 extra Wolverine books, Astonishing, Cable, X-Men anthology titles, and the other minis that show up all the time. The X-brand isn't healthy enough to sustain that right now, adjust accordingly.
    How many X-books are out right now, and how many of them actually matter?

    Quick count:

    Uncanny X-Men
    X-Men Legacy
    Astonishing X-Men
    X-Force
    X-Factor
    New Mutants
    Dark Wolverine (will probably go back to Wolverine after Siege)
    Wolverine: Origins
    Wolverine: Weapon X
    Cable
    X-Men Forever
    and various minis/one-shots (X-Factor Forever, New Mutants Forever, there always seems to be a Wolverine one-shot each month)

    And if you count the Deadpool titles, that's 4 more right there

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  • HadjiQuestHadjiQuest Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    The main problem with story consistency when it comes to X-Men nowadays is that if you want to keep up with the main continuity you have to buy X-Men: Legacy, Forever, Uncanny, Young X-Men, etc.

    I have been reading Fraction's run on and off since that terrible Sisterhood story arc, and it has more or less stood alone from the other X-books, at least to the point where I had no problem following every bit of it.

    And honestly, that's probably for the best. The line should always have a main book that isn't burdened by the others. I know Astonishing is supposed to be that book, but it really isn't filling that slot anymore, and it feels like Uncanny has taken up that mantle, showing kind of a best-of group of mutants, and being the absolute definer of the status quo for them.

  • Witch_Hunter_84Witch_Hunter_84 Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    In regard to the Wolverine books, I'm pretty sure it's safe to say that cancelling Weapon X should logically bring down the wrath of some deity.
    HadjiQuest wrote: »
    I have been reading Fraction's run on and off since that terrible Sisterhood story arc, and it has more or less stood alone from the other X-books, at least to the point where I had no problem following every bit of it..

    I liked the Sistehood arc because it brought back Madalyne Pryor and Psylock, unfortunately those were the only two positive things I could find in it. The rest was just meh.

    If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten in your presence.
  • HadjiQuestHadjiQuest Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Although maybe the books aren't as good as they could be, I honestly think Marvel has a great format for the books right now. One book with the main story, another focusing on side-story and continuity bits with fan-favorite characters, a black-ops strike team action book, and then assorted other books with cult lineups. Then have a crossover once or twice a year.

    One of the reasons I never read the X books as a kid is because of the gold team/blue team shit. But also because the continuity was impenetrable, and every time I tried the storytelling never seemed as cool and new to me as it did in the 90s toon.

  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Servo wrote: »
    it kind of doesn't always have much to do with the rest of the MU. x-men became such a juggernaut (ah ho ho!) in the 80s and 90s that it really grew its own mini-universe within the marvel u.

    Beyond that, I think it's inherently difficult to integrate the X-Men mythos into the rest of the Marvel Universe. Just as it'd be difficult to relate the day to day events of America in the 1950s-1960s without talking about the civil rights movement, it's difficult to imagine Spider-Man living in the same world as the X-Men without him constantly being affected by the oppression of mutants. You can't have Peter Parker debating mutant rights with everyone he meets while Spider-Man battles Sentinels, though, and you especially can't have the US government that oppresses mutants be the same government that the Avengers fight for and that Captain America represents. All you can do is cordon off the X-Men's version of the MU.

    That said, I think the Ultimate Universe has done a good job of making the mutant issue part of every Ultimate book.

  • NightslyrNightslyr Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    I think the OP nailed the problem with the X-books. There's only less than 200 mutants left, yet an astonishingly disproportionate number of them are costumed heroes or villains. It's just not believable that, what, 30%-40% of the remaining mutants are X-Men.

    I never bought most of the angst surrounding the X-Men anyway. If the Avengers, Fantastic Four, etc are lauded for their powers (at least, before Civil War), why wouldn't mutants be? Would the average person really care if the superpowered person they see on the news got their powers from a genetic mutation rather than, say, cosmic radiation? There's so much wild shit going down in the 616, I just can't see mutants being a hot button issue for most people, at least not to a greater extent than any other superpowered related item.

    The X-Franchise will always be special to me due to nostalgia, but it certainly doesn't fit well with the rest of the 616.

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  • BostonGanglerBostonGangler Registered User
    edited February 2010
    Solar wrote: »
    I really need to start buying X-Men comic at some point. I'm looking for a jumping on point to the X-verse similar to how New Avengers: volume 1 is for the Avengers franchise after dissasembled, anybody got any suggestions? I'm thinking Uncanny X-Men: The New Age Volume 1.

    I started with Astonishing X-Men #1, read Whedon's run (through 25 and giant-size), then started at Messiah Complex with Uncanny (which I don't get anymore, since I found it really, really boring, although I still read X-Force and Cable). Dunno if I'm the best one to get advice from, though: I tend to just jump into titles, for better or worse, and read until it makes sense.

  • BostonGanglerBostonGangler Registered User
    edited February 2010
    Nightslyr wrote: »
    I think the OP nailed the problem with the X-books. There's only less than 200 mutants left, yet an astonishingly disproportionate number of them are costumed heroes or villains. It's just not believable that, what, 30%-40% of the remaining mutants are X-Men.

    I never bought most of the angst surrounding the X-Men anyway. If the Avengers, Fantastic Four, etc are lauded for their powers (at least, before Civil War), why wouldn't mutants be? Would the average person really care if the superpowered person they see on the news got their powers from a genetic mutation rather than, say, cosmic radiation? There's so much wild shit going down in the 616, I just can't see mutants being a hot button issue for most people, at least not to a greater extent than any other superpowered related item.

    The X-Franchise will always be special to me due to nostalgia, but it certainly doesn't fit well with the rest of the 616.

    The only explanation that makes any sense to me would be that mutants represent an evolutionary step forward. Whereas Spider-man, Fantastic Four, Hulk etc. got their powers through freak accidents that are more or less isolated incidents, mutants, at least in theory, developed organically to replace humans. They were potentially rendering humans obsolete.

    Now, would your average angry bigot even understand the difference, let alone care? Probably not, so I definitely get where you're coming from.

  • BostonGanglerBostonGangler Registered User
    edited February 2010
    The main problem with story consistency when it comes to X-Men nowadays is that if you want to keep up with the main continuity you have to buy X-Men: Legacy, Forever, Uncanny, Young X-Men, etc.

    Forever has nothing to do with the continuity of the other books- it's Chris Claremont writing as if everything that came after he left never happened. Definitely not my thing: I read the first issue, and little stuff like changing Gambit's last name just struck me as pointless and kinda self-serving, so I dropped it.

  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    it kind of doesn't always have much to do with the rest of the MU. x-men became such a juggernaut (ah ho ho!) in the 80s and 90s that it really grew its own mini-universe within the marvel u.

    But the coolest part of Marvel is the interaction between all the different heroes and groups of heroes, and that's something that never seems to happen with the X-Men except very occasionally. I would argue that the Fantastic Four are also suffering a bit from this lately as really they should be involved in Siege given Reed Richard's importance in setting up the who shebang.

  • FuruFuru Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Look I just want a new New X-Men book.

    and Young X-Men doesn't count. It will never count.

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  • TexiKenTexiKen Was it Kierkegaard or Dick Van Patten who said, Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Nightslyr wrote: »
    I never bought most of the angst surrounding the X-Men anyway. If the Avengers, Fantastic Four, etc are lauded for their powers (at least, before Civil War), why wouldn't mutants be? Would the average person really care if the superpowered person they see on the news got their powers from a genetic mutation rather than, say, cosmic radiation? There's so much wild shit going down in the 616, I just can't see mutants being a hot button issue for most people, at least not to a greater extent than any other superpowered related item.

    This is where editorial and creators just play dumb sometimes with established concepts.

    In the 80's X-Factor, after Fall of the Mutants, became heroes just like the FF in the eyes of NYC after saving the city from Apocalypse. Ship rooted itself in the middle of Manhatten and they were seen as heroes. This lasted for about 4-5 years until the arc where Cyclops gives Nate to Askani.

    This time as heroes is literally never referenced again in all futures X-Men stories, not even in Whedon's Astonishing run where Cyclops acts like this is a noble new concept for the X-Men to be seen as heroes.

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  • descdesc destroy all false poseur trend metal Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Well, mutants are portrayed as the perpetual oppressed minority, both hated and feared by society for being different. The MU's mutant civil rights has been likened to the African-American civil rights movement, the gay rights movement, etc. It would kind of defeat the purpose of their core story-line if they didn't have to fight for acceptance wherever they went.

    Which is kind of a shame, I really thought that the mutant population's time in San Francisco really suited them well. I agree that putting them all on an island is kind of overdoing it.

    WH and Munch both posted pretty much exactly my thoughts on the books right now -- fine, the X-Men are the Marvel's inexplicably oppressed minority. This is actually kind of interesting when you look at the history of the books -- the second X-men team being consciously made up of people from all over the world of different ethnicities/nationalities. By the time you get to the movie in 2000 there are more overtones of them being a stand-in for the gay community or people who are just sort of "queer" in a general sense. Inside the books, the stories are about punching villains. Outside the books, this changing arc of who the "X" is a cypher for is the meta-story.

    Morrison did a good job with changing up the one-dimensional "hated, feared" schtick. Fraction's initial stuff in SF had this with mutant rock bands and fashion shows being partially accepted.

    If the X-Men are on the wrong end of discrimination, wouldn't it only be fair to show that civil rights have been progressing slowly but steadily throughout our history?


    Sigh.

    And I know I have said this several times on the forum, but I'm watching Necrosha turn into the one and only one thing I didn't want to see happen to the X-Men: they've been taken away from their "out of the closet" interaction with larger society in SF and they're crammed back into a tiny non-place. It's hard for the X-men to not feel like they're regurgitating the same stories when they're always tucked in a series of dark rooms filled with computers watching supervillains attack on a big screen and then talking about which one of their former teammates has been resurrected recently. Arrrrggghhhhhhhhh.

    Let them get some fresh air! Let them exist in an actual freaking place! Acknowledge to your audience that American society has reasons for both embracing and fearing sweeping change!

    Argh!

  • TexiKenTexiKen Was it Kierkegaard or Dick Van Patten who said, Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    desc wrote: »
    If the X-Men are on the wrong end of discrimination, wouldn't it only be fair to show that civil rights have been progressing slowly but steadily throughout our history?

    I agree with this completely.

    By continuing to accept the notion that mutants are still feared and hated, you refuse to acknowledge that over time, society accepts minorities. Even compared to the 80's when this was going on (and at least was a novel concept then), things have changed in 25 years.

    And really, you have all these good looking women with powers, normal guys aren't going to be all "what a freak!," they'd be all "I need to bang that chick who controls the weather or that purple haired asian ninja, they look nice"

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  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    So I was going through some old stuff the other day and came across some old trading cards when one caught my eye due to how much the character looked like Hope. Anybody remember Askani? Not the tribe but the actual character with that name? I believe she raised Cable in the future. Anywho, that's my bet on who Hope ends up being.

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  • NightslyrNightslyr Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    TexiKen wrote: »
    In the 80's X-Factor, after Fall of the Mutants, became heroes just like the FF in the eyes of NYC after saving the city from Apocalypse. Ship rooted itself in the middle of Manhatten and they were seen as heroes. This lasted for about 4-5 years until the arc where Cyclops gives Nate to Askani.

    I remember that era. It was right when I started getting into non-Transformers comics. I thought that Ship was so cool. Remember when Beast and Iceman were best friends? Has that friendship even been hinted at in the last decade?

    *sigh*

    For every step forward the X-Franchise has taken, it seems to have taken just as many back. The plots shouldn't be essentially the same as the books I read ~20 years ago. Editorial really needs to make a decision on where to go. Either repower all of the former mutants and get back to the idea of mutants-as-a-culture, or treat them as a true endangered species with federal, and perhaps even UN protection and immunity. None of this moronic "We're a nation because we say so" shit. At least, not off the coast of California. Do it in the Savage Land, or the old Australia base. Some place more hidden and logical than on Norman Osbourne's doorstep.

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  • NightslyrNightslyr Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    So I was going through some old stuff the other day and came across some old trading cards when one caught my eye due to how much the character looked like Hope. Anybody remember Askani? Not the tribe but the actual character with that name? I believe she raised Cable in the future. Anywho, that's my bet on who Hope ends up being.
    Spoiler:

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  • Caveman PawsCaveman Paws Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Nightslyr wrote: »
    So I was going through some old stuff the other day and came across some old trading cards when one caught my eye due to how much the character looked like Hope. Anybody remember Askani? Not the tribe but the actual character with that name? I believe she raised Cable in the future. Anywho, that's my bet on who Hope ends up being.
    Spoiler:

    I would not be surprised at all if Nighty is %100 correct.

    If "R.S" was a bigger star in the Xbooks I would imagine that her "future potential" might stop this idea from occuring but what are the odds *cough*Marveleditorsdroptheballfrequently*cough* of that happeneing?

    Plus that Wiki entry mentions how there is a timeline where "R.S." doesn't end up as that character [or something to that effect] so that, plus the general "do what you want it's time travel stupid" attitude should not make for much of a barrier.

  • MarkGoodhartMarkGoodhart Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    I really wish they would push the X-men away from the whole 'hated by the world thing' and took a moment to really examine the make up of the team and its purposes. For example, I would like to see someone question why the X-Men are basically only taught combat when... lets say Iceman could be doing actual good for the world and increasing the mutants level of acceptance that way. Or why The X-Men are full of the 'pretty' mutants and all the uglies with useless mutations lived in the sewers with Calisto.

  • TexiKenTexiKen Was it Kierkegaard or Dick Van Patten who said, Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    The Morlock thing was always a cop out it felt like, acknowledging that there are ugly mutants but then letting it be ok because they don't want to hang out with the pretty ones on the surface (or the different but still acceptable ones like Nightcrawler). Marrow was a step to acknowledging something new with it, but even she turned into somewhat of a pretty bird.

    corel309-Copy_zps0390a6cc.jpg
  • BlackjackBlackjack Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Furu wrote: »
    Look I just want a new New X-Men book.

    and Young X-Men doesn't count. It will never count.
    This is where you made me think of the glories of a book with Jubilee, Anole, Rockslide, Trance, Loa, and Dust again you know.

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  • Caveman PawsCaveman Paws Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Furu wrote: »
    Look I just want a new New X-Man book.

    Xman_1.jpg

    Dream with me.

  • NightslyrNightslyr Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Furu wrote: »
    Look I just want a new New X-Man book.

    Xman_1.jpg

    Dream with me.

    I loved pre-shaman Nate, but man, that costume is pretty funny. Blue pleather with yellow trim, plus kneepads. I love the 90's. Still, it's better than his current look.

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  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Nightslyr wrote: »
    Still, it's better than his current look.

    Are you talking about the shirtless look or Norman Osborn?

  • NightslyrNightslyr Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Nightslyr wrote: »
    Still, it's better than his current look.

    Are you talking about the shirtless look or Norman Osborn?

    The shirtless, shoeless, X-tattoo on the breast look. All he needs is to sit on the quad with an acoustic guitar.

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