MMA 6: Icegate

[Tycho?]

MixedMartialArts


What is this thread for?
This thread is for Mixed Martial Arts, and the discussion there-of. When people fight in the UFC, they are practicing the sport of MMA. It is a very young sport, and currently one of the fastest growing in the world. This is the thread for talking about the UFC, WEC, DREAM and other MMA organizations. Its also for talking about martial arts in general; training, history, your experiences and so on.

Tell us what you train! We are very interested to know your background in martial arts, and what you're doing these days. Training tips, techniques, recommendations, reviews and all that stuff are encouraged.

We are also very used to people not having the first idea of what MMA is. So, feel free to ask us about rules, fighters, organizations, techniques, whatever. We wont bite your head off if you don't know what half-guard is.



Upcoming Events:

Spoiler:

ChillyWilly wrote: »

I know we've already discussed how awesome the next few months are before, but I thought I'd make this handy list for anyone who doesn't want to keep searching all over the place for the different fights that are happening up until May.

Cards subject to change.



WEC 47: Bowles vs. Cruz (BW Title) - March 6th

Spoiler:

UFC on Versus: Vera vs. Jones and JDS vs. Gonzaga - March 21st

Spoiler:

UFC 111: St. Pierre vs. Hardy (WW Title) and Mir vs. Carwin (Interim HW Title) - March 27th

Spoiler:

UFC Fight Night 21: Florian vs. Gomi and Nelson vs. Struve - March 31st

Spoiler:

UFC 112: Silva vs. Maia (MW Title), Edgar vs. Penn (LW Title) and Gracie vs. Hughes - April 10th

Spoiler:

WEC 48: Aldo vs. Faber (FW Title) and Henderson vs. Cerrone (LW Title) - April 24th

Note: This is scheduled to be the company's PPV debut, so it will not be on Versus

Also, check out the poster. At the top, it says "UFC Presents", which I've never seen any other WEC posters. Looks like they're calling attention to the WEC being related to the UFC to help it get more buys. Not a bad idea:

Spoiler:

UFC 113: Machida vs. Shogun 2 (LHW Title) and Koscheck vs. Daley - May 8th

Spoiler:

UFC 114: Jackson vs. Evans - May 29th

Spoiler:

Hope this helps some folks keep the everything in line.

I don't like this "MMA" stuff because it looks like guys hugging for 5 minutes. How can I fix this?

Spoiler:

The biggest problem people seem to have with MMA is the ground part. They see two guys rolling around all over each other, and out come the homo jokes. Well, the ground game is actually extremely intricate, and that flailing around is (usually) carefully placed movements of each fighters body as they grapple for position. Learn the positions, and suddenly all that rolling around will make some sense. The following is a very basic primer on stuff you see in the UFC and MMA as a whole, and may have questions about. It is by no means exhaustive.



The Guard:


A very common position. The fighter on the ground will usually try and assume this position as a defensive posture. Obviously the guy on the bottom is worried about punches, which he'll block with his hands. His legs are wrapped around his opponent in order to trap him in place, and to initiate attacks. The fighter on top will have a hard time dealing damage against a competent ground fighter from this position. His goal will often be to "pass the guard". This means he wants to get around his opponent's legs so he's not tangled up in them anymore, and has more ability to move. Conversely, the fighter on the bottom has a wide variety of submission attacks and sweeps from this position.



The Mount:


This is very bad news for the guy on the bottom. Compare this with the guard, and you can see why its good for the guy on the bottom to use his legs. When mounted, the fighter on top can sit on his opponents chest and is free to rain punches. The fighter on the bottom can't use his legs well, and his arms are used mostly in blocking punches. The bottom guy must desperately escape however he can, as many fights are ended from this position.



Takedowns and Takedown defense:

As ground fighting is such a large component of MMA, dictating where the fight takes place is a big part of it. The grappler wants to take it to the ground, in order to pound his opponent with gnp (Ground n Pound) or submit him. The striker wants to keep things standing, and avoid the ground unless its on his own terms. There are many ways to take a fight to the ground. The above shows the green fighter shooting (meaning lowering his level, moving forwards, grabbing his opponents legs and trying to topple him over) while the guy in red defends. The defender is trying to move his hips back, and keep his legs from being controlled. The cage can be used to both aid and prevent a takedown. In this case the fighter in red is using the cage to lean against and maintain balance. You'll often see fighters push their opponents against the cage while standing, and use the pressure to set up a shot, throw or trip.



Submissions:

The sexy part of the ground game, probably because its pretty clear how they work. The above picture is an example of an armbar from the bottom. The submission works because it isolates a single part of the body to be attacked. In this case Fedor (the fellow performing the armbar) is able to use the muscles in his arms, his torso, and his legs. Choi can defend with only his one bicep muscle. The 100lbs weight disparity in this match made little difference to the outcome; proper use of body mechanics can truly allow a small, weaker opponent to defeat a larger stronger one.

Who are the best fighters in the world?

Spoiler:

Obviously this is highly subjective, so good luck coming to any sort of agreement. That being said, most MMA fans will tell you its one of these four men.

Fedor Emelianenko
31-1-1
Heavyweight (230lbs)

The guy looks like a used car salesman. He's a bit soft around the midsection. His only known facial expression is a strange little smile. He's also an unbelievably dangerous fighter. His punches are lightning fast and very powerful. He has excellent trips, and more than half his wins come via submission. He never gets tired, is never apprehensive, and is never scared. He is Russian. He is called The Last Emperor.

His next opponent is likely going to be Fabricio Werdum.



Georges "Rush" St Pierre
19-2
Welterweight (170lbs)

GSP is one of the poster boys of the UFC. He is known for his good manners, his constant improvement and his adorable French-Canadian accent. He has cut a swath through the WW division and shows no signs of slowing down. His strength, speed and general athleticism is unmatched. Possibly the best wrestler in MMA , he combines this with excellent submissions and a daring striking game that includes leaping punches and spinning kicks galore.

He is scheduled to fight Dan Hardy on March 27 at UFC 111.



Anderson "The Spider" Silva
29-4
Middle Weight (185lbs)

This Brazillian fighter has recently been accused of being boring. UFC management then decided to give him an opponent who was actually willing to exchange punches with Silva. This has been shown to be detrimental to one's health, and indeed resulted in one of the most one-sided losses UFC fans have ever seen. Oh, this was against a former champ, who was a weight class above him. Silva is undefeated in his UFC career; his Muay Thai and boxing make him the most feared striker in MMA today. His hobbies include hilarious impersonations, dancing, and challenging Roy Jones Jr to boxing matches.

He is schedulded to fight Vitor Belfort on April 10th at UFC 112.



BJ Penn
21-5
Lightweight (155lbs)

A fighter with the nickname "The Prodigy" had better be good. And oh, oh he is. His boxing is some of the best in the sport, his takedown defense is unreal, and his ground-game is incredible. He has abnormal flexibility, especially in his legs, he is almost impossible to cut and his chin is so strong that he's never even been knocked down in a fight. To learn more, go to bjpenn.com

He is schedulded to fight Frank Edgar on April 10th at UFC 112.

You need to know who these people are to participate in the thread:

Spoiler:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3K-mrlYG7Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pJsbOmrYNY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a556pUcVgO0

Resources:
MMA news:
Sherdog
MMA Weekly
MMA Junkie
Bloody Elbow

Community:
Sherdog Forums One of if not the largest, there is a lot of good stuff mixed in with the mass of noise and stupidity a place that size produces.

Other:
BestFightOdds Showing a collection of fight odds from a variety of betting organizations.
Fight Metric A collection of very well put-together UFC stats and fight analysis. Graphs included.



What this thread isn't for:
This thread is not for saying your martial art is better than some other guys, and you could totally kick his ass. Talk about effectiveness? Sure, debate over which style would win in a street fight? Sure, but we all know its not going anywhere. Basically just don't be jerks. Come in with an open mind, and be willing to hold your tongue once and a while. Try to be patient with B:L.

Shadowen

The rundown of top fighters is great. A fine OP.

Wet Bandit

I'd like to propose that on fight nights, we stop using spoiler tags for everything. It's really annoying. And if someone is concerned about spoilers for an event, they probably shouldn't be hanging out in a thread that will talk about that event.

I can see using spoiler tags for something like a UK event that's on tape-delay, or a Dream event that isn't on HDNet until the next afternoon, but for live US events, can we stop using spoiler tags? Does anyone have any issue with this?

[Tycho?]

Wet Bandit wrote: »

I'd like to propose that on fight nights, we stop using spoiler tags for everything. It's really annoying. And if someone is concerned about spoilers for an event, they probably shouldn't be hanging out in a thread that will talk about that event.

I can see using spoiler tags for something like a UK event that's on tape-delay, or a Dream event that isn't on HDNet until the next afternoon, but for live US events, can we stop using spoiler tags? Does anyone have any issue with this?

Fuck no. I usually don't spoiler fight info anyway. It really slows down discussion having everything hidden away, when everyone comes to the thread to talk about the fights.

Shadowen

I don't, but then I'm a bit of a dick when it comes to spoilers.

B:L

I approve of the OP. :^:

Minus the "be patient with B:L" part. Really now.


As for Fight Night spoilers...it's not too much of a hassle to label and click spoilers. Let's people pick and choose which fights they want spoiled, and let's them know when a certain match is up.

Sam

Wet Bandit wrote: »

I'd like to propose that on fight nights, we stop using spoiler tags for everything. It's really annoying. And if someone is concerned about spoilers for an event, they probably shouldn't be hanging out in a thread that will talk about that event.

I can see using spoiler tags for something like a UK event that's on tape-delay, or a Dream event that isn't on HDNet until the next afternoon, but for live US events, can we stop using spoiler tags? Does anyone have any issue with this?

Yes.

Not everyone on the forum is in the US or gets to watch the events live at ungodly hours of the night. People also come in the thread to discuss other things like their own training, the video games, other promotions or just shoot the shit about MMA in general.

You don't really have your day ruined by using spoiler tags.

Dangerbird

Aww yeah, love that fresh new thread smell.

Nice OP by the way.

Wet Bandit

B:L wrote: »

As for Fight Night spoilers...it's not too much of a hassle to label and click spoilers. Let's people pick and choose which fights they want spoiled, and let's them know when a certain match is up.

What people? Seriously. If someone wasn't watching UFC 109 and didn't want the fights spoiled, why would they hang out in an MMA thread during or shortly after the event? Obviously we're going to be talking about the event, so if you don't want the fights spoiled, this would seemingly be the last place you'd want to be.

Sam

Wet Bandit wrote: »

B:L wrote: »

As for Fight Night spoilers...it's not too much of a hassle to label and click spoilers. Let's people pick and choose which fights they want spoiled, and let's them know when a certain match is up.

What people? Seriously. If someone wasn't watching UFC 109 and didn't want the fights spoiled, why would they hang out in an MMA thread during or shortly after the event? Obviously we're going to be talking about the event, so if you don't want the fights spoiled, this would seemingly be the last place you'd want to be.

Like I said, people discuss more than just the newest event in this thread and for any number of reasons may not be able to watch it right as it airs.

The perceived inconvenience of one click of the spoiler button and typing out a descriptive label that can be as short as the given name of one fighter is nowhere near as bad as having an event you've been looking forward to ruined.

Wet Bandit

Sam wrote: »

Not everyone on the forum is in the US or gets to watch the events live at ungodly hours of the night. People also come in the thread to discuss other things like their own training, the video games, other promotions or just shoot the shit about MMA in general.

When was the last time anyone had any serious discussion about training, video games, other promotions, or MMA in general during times when fights are spoiler tagged? When tags are being used, it's either the night of the fights, or maybe some of the day after. In both cases, 98% of the discussion is about the event, not about training or video games. That's the stuff we talk about in the weeks in between events.

I could see some issue with people outside the US, but do we have any foreigners here who don't watch fights live, don't want fights spoiled, and come here in the middle of discussions about the fights they don't want spoiled and just hang out, staring at all the spoiler tags? It all just seems so theoretical, and not practical. It's like, "Well this could happen, even though it doesn't make sense" and not "This is what actually happens".

And no, putting stuff in spoiler tags doesn't ruin my day. But it seems to be a pointless annoyance, and I'm just throwing it out there seeing if there's any good reason that we do it.

Shadowen

After some more consideration, maybe a controlling vote should be given to [Tycho?], because for politeness's sake I'd expect he or a put-upon mod would change the thread title to warn of spoilers.

B:L

Wet Bandit wrote: »

And no, putting stuff in spoiler tags doesn't ruin my day. But it seems to be a pointless annoyance, and I'm just throwing it out there seeing if there's any good reason that we do it.

It's not a pointless annoyance for me, so we should keep the spoiler tags.

There, problem solved.

ChillyWilly

Very solid OP, Tycho. I'll have a hard time following it up with MMA 7: Son of MMA 6. Or whatever it will be called.

I'm in agreement with the anti-spoiler people. When fight nights are happening, that is obviously what we're going to be discussing for the next day or two. If you don't want to know what's up, don't come into the thread until you've seen the event.

If the majority of people want to do spoiler tags, I have no problem doing them. But I also don't really see a point in wasting my time with them if there is a consensus understanding that, "Hey, it's Saturday night, the MMA thread is probably going to be talking about Strikeforce/UFC/whatever. I should probably stay away from the thread if I don't want to know what's happening."

Honestly, it seems like common sense.

Sam

I was mainly speaking for myself, because I come into this thread a lot (honestly I think it's the human condition to read threads about something you're interested in but haven't yet had a chance to watch that may have spoilers, that's sort of what they're there for) and I'm not in the US right now.
Why would I click into the thread at those time? well apart from other general MMA topics, I read the prefight stuff, putting me dangerously close to the spoilers.

And also, what B:L said. In certain circumstances, people may want to know when a particular fight has finished airing, and for some fights, people would also like to see the result without watching.

Spectrum

[Tycho?] wrote: »

To learn more, go to bjpenn.com

Ahahahahaha. I approve. :lol:

Also, quality video choices. :^:

Pro-spoiler myself. It's really not that much of a hassle to spoiler them. Maybe someone's watching an event, had to get up and miss a fight and is going to rewatch it later, but wants to keep talking about later fights. Any number of things could happen.

[Tycho?]

Shadowen wrote: »

After some more consideration, maybe a controlling vote should be given to [Tycho?], because for politeness's sake I'd expect he or a put-upon mod would change the thread title to warn of spoilers.

I'll pass as far as a controlling vote or anything like that goes. I've previously disagreed with the thread starter* having some sort of extra control over the thread, and I'll stand by that policy. I think we can work shit out in here without granting someone extra authority.

That being said, here's what I propose. Firstly, we wait. Next event is on what, the 20th? We can discuss this further until then. We come to an agreement, great. Otherwise I suggest we try UFC 110 sans spoilers. I'll edit the thread title to indicate spoilers may be present for the event. During and after the event we see how we all feel about, who was inconvenienced by it, who liked it, and so on. After we've tried it out we can agree on a more formal policy on this.


*3 guesses as to who that thread starter was that I disagreed with. The first two don't count.

Sam

so far it's 4 in support of dropping spoilers and 3 against.

krapst78

I'm cool with dropping spoilers if we can apply it for all events. Not being in the US, it's difficult to know which events are tape-delayed and such for people in the States. I guess it's the same for people in the States trying to figure out which UFC events would be tape delayed for Korea (usually only the UK events). MMA is fairly popular in Korea so we get a lot of other international promotions such as the M-1 Global, Sengoku, and DEEP events shown live here and it's tough to figure out their broadcasting schedules internationally.

QuickSnap

On the off chance that we needed more proof that Jason David Frank (aka Tommy the Green Ranger) could kick a number of asses, here it is.

I really wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of those kicks at the 1:00 mark.

Venkman90

Good OP, just needs more James "DVD's" Thompson

Spoiler:

the man has been watchin some DVD's, you best be ready

Inquisitor77

It's unfortunate that we can't just start new threads for each event, as that would probably be the best solution. With that unnecessary comment out of the way, I vote for getting rid of spoilers. It's pretty much a given that on the only-allowed MMA thread in the forum that any event which can be viewed live will be discussed as it is occurring.

I'm in Melbourne for the next 9 months and I can't watch 24, House, etc. because they're 6 months behind here. Suffice it to say I don't click on those threads. It sucks, but somehow I manage not to cry myself to sleep about it.

Sam

I'm in Melbourne for the next 9 months and I can't watch 24, House, etc. because they're 6 months behind here. Suffice it to say I don't click on those threads. It sucks, but somehow I manage not to cry myself to sleep about it.

dude you discredit your own point because those threads are all spoiler tagged when people post about episodes as they air and immediately after.

Seriously, if we're already doing it this way and clicking the spoiler button doesn't affect you the way having the event ruined affects me.

DasUberEdward

This is a good OP.

Nice OP. OP.

Inquisitor77

Sam wrote: »

I'm in Melbourne for the next 9 months and I can't watch 24, House, etc. because they're 6 months behind here. Suffice it to say I don't click on those threads. It sucks, but somehow I manage not to cry myself to sleep about it.

dude you discredit your own point because those threads are all spoiler tagged when people post about episodes as they air and immediately after.

Seriously, if we're already doing it this way and clicking the spoiler button doesn't affect you the way having the event ruined affects me.

Actually, it really doesn't matter what happens in those threads. That was not my point. I'm pretty sure that was clear.

Organichu

experience!

a lifetime of krav maga (which we will not discuss here because the internet is collectively a jerk about any of the non staples of mma)
13 years of bjj, 9 of them 'serious' where it wasn't just a have-to-go afterschool activity

also i have lots of rigorous gay sex for my cardio and flexibility

Sam

any event which can be viewed live will be discussed as it is occurring.

look when tv shows are discussed as they are occurring they are spoiler tagged. I don't see why the one click common courtesy can't apply here. You stand to lose less than those that do want the tags.

ChillyWilly

Organichu wrote: »

experience!

a lifetime of krav maga (which we will not discuss here because the internet is collectively a jerk about any of the non staples of mma)
13 years of bjj, 9 of them 'serious' where it wasn't just a have-to-go afterschool activity

also i have lots of rigorous gay sex for my cardio and flexibility

What are you in BJJ? With 9 "serious" years, I would guess you're at least brown (maybe even black?).

I ask because I just got into BJJ this year and have about a month of training so far. I'm addicted to it and I'm looking forward to learning as much as I can. I also plan on throwing in boxing or Muay Thai to compliment my ground game at some point, but I'm more worried about the BJJ at this point. Hoping to participate in some tournaments in the next year or so.

I have nothing against Krav Maga. It's a very brutal style, though it's one that isn't really suited for MMA fighting. You won't be stealing a gun from anyone in the cage or deflecting a baseball bat/knife that's coming at you. The conditioning and body hardening of the art are useful, of course, but the practicality of it in something less than a life or death situation is questionable.

Organichu

ChillyWilly wrote: »

Organichu wrote: »

experience!

a lifetime of krav maga (which we will not discuss here because the internet is collectively a jerk about any of the non staples of mma)
13 years of bjj, 9 of them 'serious' where it wasn't just a have-to-go afterschool activity

also i have lots of rigorous gay sex for my cardio and flexibility

What are you in BJJ? With 9 "serious" years, I would guess you're at least brown (maybe even black?).

I ask because I just got into BJJ this year and have about a month of training so far. I'm addicted to it and I'm looking forward to learning as much as I can. I also plan on throwing in boxing or Muay Thai to compliment my ground game at some point, but I'm more worried about the BJJ at this point. Hoping to participate in some tournaments in the next year or so.

I have nothing against Krav Maga. It's a very brutal style, though it's one that isn't really suited for MMA fighting. You won't be stealing a gun from anyone in the cage or deflecting a baseball bat/knife that's coming at you. The conditioning and body hardening of the art are useful, of course, but the practicality of it in something less than a life or death situation is questionable.

well the first few 'serious' years (13 on) were just me saying "hey i really enjoy this and i'm actually excited about learning"... but i was still really overweight and i couldn't physically match my enthusiasm, plus some health problems

i've been physically able and interested for probably six years, since the middle of high school

i'm a purple belt

edit: certain elements of krav aren't suited for mma... others (like basic strikes, head grapples, trips) are very suited. it's just that people amalgamate it to include all the techniques and so the fundamental hand to hand premises are thrown out like a baby with the bathwater... which is silly

but yes, with regards to bjj, if you have any questions feel free to pose them and i'll answer as my experience allows

Dynagrip

B:L wrote: »

I approve of the OP. :^:

Minus the "be patient with B:L" part. Really now.

yeah, your posts should be met with open hostility.

Neli

In other news, FREAK FIGHTS!

Remember Mariusz Pudzianowski? The 5 times worlds strongest man champion who successcully kicked the soul out of a man in his first MMA fight?

Well he's back and he's in talks to fight this guy in may:



Yes, we might be getting a worlds strongest man vs a sumo champion. The Sumo champion won his first MMA fight by smothering his opponent. This is either going to be absolutely amazing and hilarious, or absolutely awful and hilarious.

Peter Ebel

Shit, I hate mismatched MMA fights. I even felt bad for BJ Penn when he went against GSP the second time.

Great OP by the way.

Wet Bandit

Sam wrote: »

any event which can be viewed live will be discussed as it is occurring.

look when tv shows are discussed as they are occurring they are spoiler tagged. I don't see why the one click common courtesy can't apply here. You stand to lose less than those that do want the tags.

That's because it's common for people to watch those shows on Hulu or to DVR them.

That's not common for fights. That's not common for any sporting event, which is why whenever any other sporting event is being talked about in a PA thread, it's not spoiler-tagged.

Peter Ebel

In regards to spoilers, I don't really care either way. Just so long as we're all sticking to a standard.

[Tycho?]

Organichu wrote: »

ChillyWilly wrote: »

Organichu wrote: »

experience!

a lifetime of krav maga (which we will not discuss here because the internet is collectively a jerk about any of the non staples of mma)
13 years of bjj, 9 of them 'serious' where it wasn't just a have-to-go afterschool activity

also i have lots of rigorous gay sex for my cardio and flexibility

What are you in BJJ? With 9 "serious" years, I would guess you're at least brown (maybe even black?).

I ask because I just got into BJJ this year and have about a month of training so far. I'm addicted to it and I'm looking forward to learning as much as I can. I also plan on throwing in boxing or Muay Thai to compliment my ground game at some point, but I'm more worried about the BJJ at this point. Hoping to participate in some tournaments in the next year or so.

I have nothing against Krav Maga. It's a very brutal style, though it's one that isn't really suited for MMA fighting. You won't be stealing a gun from anyone in the cage or deflecting a baseball bat/knife that's coming at you. The conditioning and body hardening of the art are useful, of course, but the practicality of it in something less than a life or death situation is questionable.

well the first few 'serious' years (13 on) were just me saying "hey i really enjoy this and i'm actually excited about learning"... but i was still really overweight and i couldn't physically match my enthusiasm, plus some health problems

i've been physically able and interested for probably six years, since the middle of high school

i'm a purple belt

edit: certain elements of krav aren't suited for mma... others (like basic strikes, head grapples, trips) are very suited. it's just that people amalgamate it to include all the techniques and so the fundamental hand to hand premises are thrown out like a baby with the bathwater... which is silly

but yes, with regards to bjj, if you have any questions feel free to pose them and i'll answer as my experience allows

Cool to have a purple in da house. You ever do tournaments?

I might be going to this:
http://www.abudhabipro.ca/

Its not quite the ADCC, its their annual gi tournament. The North American trials are being held in Montreal, cost is 80 bucks. A bunch of people from my school are attending and it seems increasingly likely I will as well. It would be such an experience just to watch, let alone participate in.

Organichu

yup, i've competed several times... not recently, though

is it your first competition, or just your first of this scope?

MayGodHaveMercy

For what it's worth (and I know I'm late here) I missed a Strikeforce Event (or WEC, I don't remember) because I had forgotten about it. I came to the thread just to see what the current topic was, and I was met with a wall of fight spoilers. It really kind of screwed the event for me. Yeah, it's a really big hassle to

Spoiler:

spoiler

tag everything, and I'm sorry for ruining your life, but give me a break.

TL;DR : Pro-Spoiler Tags

Glaeal

Oh shits, Organichu has some color around his waist. Are you still training actively? Who's your belt under?


Spoilers are kind of a board policy. All it takes is one person to have a problem with it and fire a nastygram off to a mod and someone's getting an infraction, or the thread is getting locked. It's annoying, but we don't really have a choice.

BubbaT

Did Brock Lesnar ever have a neck?

Capt Howdy

BubbaT wrote: »

Did Brock Lesnar ever have a neck?

Nope, and it's the only thing that saved him in his match against Kurt Angle at Wrestlemania. Youtube that shit if you haven't seen it.

Yall

After our drunken superbowl fest, we decided we wanted some more MMA (we'd watched UFC the night before) and would stage one ourselves in my buddy's basement.

What a terrible and painful idea.