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SPI 40k (now with slaanesh, NSFW)

-SPI--SPI- Registered User regular
edited January 2007 in Artist's Corner
I'm working on a folio for the Games Workshop art apprenticeship. This is one of the new pieces I've done for it. I might try and bring it out a little with some digital painting underneath.

chaplain.jpg

-SPI- on
8t2qhu8l050f.jpg
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Posts

  • (ohms)Crunchy(ohms)Crunchy Registered User
    edited January 2007
    Looks cool. His legs bug me though.

    14e9iqh.jpg
  • -SPI--SPI- Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    How does this look? Not too overdone? Or should I just leave the base graphite?
    chaplain2.jpg

    I think the legs are just slightly different in their scale. Just enough to look off. I wish there was a quick fix for that as I'm pretty much burnt out on this piece and ready to move on.

    8t2qhu8l050f.jpg
  • The One Dark KnightThe One Dark Knight Registered User
    edited January 2007
    Looks nice.

    Whenever I draw space marines I always tend to draw them really chunkily- like gears of war style. I love it when their armor/shoulder pads are absolutely HUGE. I would refer you to a few fan comics if I could find them.

    Otherwise, nice piece. I don't really get a dynamic feel from it, but that's just my personal impression.

    [END]
  • GodfatherGodfather Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Why is his left leg bending like that? I can understand if the right side of his hip was cocked out or up a bit, but the hips are completely stationary, and makes the leg look longer than it should be. Either that, or it's just an uncomfortable position to stand in.

    0WBv0.png
  • WastingPenguinsWastingPenguins Registered User
    edited January 2007
    His left thigh is noticeably longer than his right. Also, his pose is pretty awkward. It would be a lot more dynamic and interesting if he were holding his weapons in natural ways, rather than just having his arms spread, weapons danging in profile view.

  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Besides what others have said about the legs... they're simply too thin. SMs are big bad mothers.

    optimusighsig.png
    Gamertag: PrimusD | Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
  • -SPI--SPI- Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Alright, I'm done fiddling. It has a bunch of problems, but I think I'd be better served spending my time on new and better drawings than endlessly fiddling with this one. Thanks for the input guys. The pose was pretty damn awkward.

    chaplaindis.jpg

    8t2qhu8l050f.jpg
  • Synthetic OrangeSynthetic Orange Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Yerp, get a new start. This guy looks like he's being pressed under a glass slide, squashed flat.

    Death to PA.
  • -SPI--SPI- Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Speedish paint.

    ork.jpg
    WAAAAAGHHHHHH

    8t2qhu8l050f.jpg
  • Angel_of_BaconAngel_of_Bacon Super Moderator, Moderator mod
    edited January 2007
    Welp, you may have moved on, but I started writing this thing and dang it I'm going to finish it. Hopefully it'll come in useful for future pics.

    Apologies if I'm repeating shit you know like the back of your hand, but all I've got to go on is this pic and the old battle tourney comics, so I'm kind of hoping I'm not insulting you by treading over shit needlessly.

    I also apologize for my length, spelling, and potentially berating tone. I'm tired and I am taking it out on this picture. Don't take it personally.

    And before I get to specifics, I'm guessing a lot of the problems here resulted from rushing to cram in so many details before hashing out the basics. Slow down on that. One good, sharp detail in a good, solid, picture is worth a million details in a poorly composed one. If people have to look at your tiny details to be impressed, you are doing something wrong!

    1. Gesture
    This has alread been hit upon, but yeah, the pose is ambiguous. I don't know if he's angry, tired, sad, doing a jig, posing for his yearbook photos, or what. Now, ambiguity really does often become a problem when all you're trying to get down with the pose is, 'well, this guy's standing here'. I could give you some crap about controposto and balance and whatnot, (and yeah, he's off balance too, but I don't want to talk about that shit), but the easiest thing to do? Just don't make it about "here's a dude just standing here." Get an idea behind there, in addition to that fashion-plate demand. Maybe it's his attitude- is he standing up, victorious? Is he just kickin' back, relaxin' all cool? Is he tired? Does his ass itch from wearing ill-fitting armor? Give him something to do and most of your problems with posing will fall away. I remember from your battle comics you're not bad at all at drawing dudes actually doing something, so why hinder yourself?

    Or, maybe it's not an attitude, but some other idea you want to bring across. Maybe you want to focus on the hulking weight of the armor. Instead of skeletal gesture, you'd be going off maybe a giant square, pieces of armor just seeming to pile up on one another, until it reaches the vague shape of a man. Thinking abstractly like this can break you out of habit of things getting too standard, too by-the-numbers.


    SPI_gestures.jpg

    2. Space

    Use space. Perspective. Design the pose so you have an opprotunity to create the illusion of depth. Like Synth said, he looks like he's pressed flat, like you are spreading his limbs apart to dissect him like an insect.

    Beyond being unrealistic as a pose, it's also boring in its use of space. Don't rush to draw things from head-on, draw them at an angle. Give yourself something that you can put some foreshortening to work, so you've got something to break up drawing, make the space tangible. One object over another, over another, that kind of thing. Overlap elements for depth.


    SPI_foreshorten.jpg

    Another thing is, partly because of the flattened posing, dead-on angle, etc., and partly because of the simplified design, you're ending up with a lot of instances where elements are perfectly symetrical. The legs, arms, and torso are not far off from simply being able to get away with mirroring their halves in photoshop. That might be ok for a diagram, but as a three-dimensional drawing, it just winds up dull. Again, this can be aleviated by putting more thing on angles in space, but also by trying to oppose the curves on each side of an object.


    The easiest example of opposing curves (this is used a lot in Disney-style animation design) is to, instead of drawing 2 straight or curved lines parallel/mirrored, you draw one curved, and one straight. Or use series of lines, offseting the lines on each side to prevent symmetry. This should help get rid of some of the monotony, as well as help get across the form even further.

    SPI_curves.jpg

    3. Design

    Given, you are not really responsible for the 'design' of the character, but how you've rendered that design leaves something to be desired. My biggest gripe is that the silohette of the character is somewhat flat and even- Try exagerating the details- make sure that they are actually noticable. For example, you've got an interesting pattern on the feet, where several plates overlap. However, because you've toned down that lip where they overlap so they all kind of meld into each other silohette-wise, it doesn't feel nearly as striking as it could have. Now, given, you don't want to just throw in a bunch of shit to spike out the silohette haphazardly, but you definatly want to make sure you've got some contrast in there.

    SPI_silo.jpg

    4. Lighting

    There is a difference between being able to put down tones that indicate how light is hitting the surface and filling in areas with some values just to be able to say you've done "shading" on the piece. Unfortunatly, this seems to fall in the later category.

    Try to figure out your light source BEFORE shading anything! Try taking your base line drawing, photocopy it a couple times, and lay down some different lighting setups with just a big black sharpie. If you can get the basic forms of the objects to come through with nothing more than big blocks of black and white, the forms will be much more pronounced than simply whittling at it piecemeal with your H pencil, and hoping it comes out right. Shading is not just about being able to make transitions from one tone to another, it's about being able to define the form with the light.

    Take the time to design your lights to maximize not just the depiction of form, but also mood. There are fewer cheaper or easier ways to get across a feeling in a picture than just fucking with the lighting design a bit.:P

    SPI_lights.jpg

  • -SPI--SPI- Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    :^:
    Extremely helpful and comprehensive Bacon, as always. Treading over shit I know is never insulting if I need a reminder on it.

    This should give me a good start on the next one.

    8t2qhu8l050f.jpg
  • -SPI--SPI- Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    WIPpery.
    Trying to do something with more... well MORE.

    term.jpg

    So it's a terminator coming through a breach in a steel wall (smoke, shit etc), striding over some dead gribbly genestealer. The only thing that's worrying me at the moment is the hammer. Theres something off with the perspective or the way it's turned or something that I can't quite pick out but it simply looks off for me. Perhaps it's head is on a slightly different perspective or angle to the handle...

    Oh and I'm going to make the guys head slightly smaller so he looks bigger overall.

    8t2qhu8l050f.jpg
  • RavenshadowRavenshadow Registered User
    edited January 2007
    it's a good start. My only gripe is with the depiction of the armor, and seeing as how you're going for a GW internship you might wanna think a little about it.

    Terminator armor is "Tactical Dreadnought" armor. As such it's lacking a sense of "mass." In the new figs the torso is really big and the tops of the armor extend well above his head. High enough to mount missile launchers without burning his skull.

    I think if you made the torso piece a little larger and going a bit further over the top of his head it would go a long way towards making him more massive.

    (unless you want it to look like the old metal Terminators that GW used to sell, in which case it's fine)

    That's why I like the AC. Just the right combination of stupid butt-fuckery and verbal masturbation to suit my needs.
  • TheBogTheBog Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    What's this art apprenticeship you're talking about? I'd like to find out more myself.

    Oh, and, you know, good art. Bacon hit all the major points, except for "design". I don't know if it's such a good idea to mess with the design of the characters just to add some bits sticking out here and there. I mean.. a plasma gun has a very signature look, etc.

    10170-1.png
  • MagicToasterMagicToaster Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Best post ever, bacon.

    tostadas.png
  • (ohms)Crunchy(ohms)Crunchy Registered User
    edited January 2007
    Best post ever, bacon.
    Professor Bacon*

    14e9iqh.jpg
  • RedPearlRedPearl Registered User
    edited January 2007
    Thanks Bacon, I bet everyone on the forums can relate to that post and learn something from it, I know I did. Your reply makes me want to post some art.

    BTW, the next sketch looks really promising SPI, I definitely wanna see how that thing turns out.

  • The One Dark KnightThe One Dark Knight Registered User
    edited January 2007
    Ho shit, see now SPI, that second one is WAY better. Even without details, it's already a better picture than the first one.


    Also,


    Bacon, you're awesome.


    Also,

    This forum rules.

    [END]
  • -SPI--SPI- Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    TheBog wrote:
    What's this art apprenticeship you're talking about? I'd like to find out more myself.
    In the last white dwarf they had a section inviting entries for a two year art apprenticeship. Starting in June in Nottingham, with one year in the Games Workshop academy and one in the Design Studio art department.

    You just have to send some copies of recent work (which I thought I'd add a few GW themed pieces to)with a CV and cover letter by January 28th (not long!). If you're one of the ones considered you'll be invited to do a specific Illustration.

    here we go
    http://uk.games-workshop.com/careers/availablejobs/default.aspx?job=78

    It was in the Australian White Dwarf so as far as I know it's open worldwide.

    8t2qhu8l050f.jpg
  • TheBogTheBog Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    In Nottingham? Well that sounds pretty far away lol. I guess I'll pass.

    10170-1.png
  • -SPI--SPI- Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
  • Angel_of_BaconAngel_of_Bacon Super Moderator, Moderator mod
    edited January 2007
    TheBog wrote:
    What's this art apprenticeship you're talking about? I'd like to find out more myself.

    Oh, and, you know, good art. Bacon hit all the major points, except for "design". I don't know if it's such a good idea to mess with the design of the characters just to add some bits sticking out here and there. I mean.. a plasma gun has a very signature look, etc.

    Well, perhaps I should have used a different word than "design", but I didn't really mean to advocate wholesale abandonment of the existing character design, but rather the design of the pose/composition.

    Luckily, the doodle thread yielded a perfect example of what I'm getting at, (I didn't even realize this was SPI's when I thought of it, oddly enough).

    SPI_haruko.jpg

    These are silohettes of an original drawing of Haruko and one by SPI. The design of the characters, if you glance over at the doodle thread, are identical. However, the original is just much, much more interesting in terms of pictoral design. Strong silhouette, demonstrates opposing curves, has an easily readable gesture, and it varies the level of detail in select spots to create interesting contrast- the hair, the hands, little wrinkles to add some spark of life to the proceedings. SPI's is less interesting- too much monotonous linework, and the placement of the scarf makes the gesture much less readable. The character design hasn't changed, but the treatment of it has.

    Now, for these Warhammer dudes, obviously the character design is dictated in a very strict kind of way, but that doesn't mean that using that design to create good pictoral design is by any means impossible. It is simply a matter of choosing which details you want the audience to focus on, and making sure that you design around empasizing those things- bringing the sharpness of rendering up in those areas, making them stand out in the silhouette. Giving a little negative space wiggle room so those details stand out won't change the character, but it does necessitate being very choosy in how you compose that character.

    Anyways.

    New pic is coming along a lot better, gesture is much nicer. It'd be nice to see that back leg be bent more so you don't have a largely parallel line silohette there.

    Thanks for the kind words people, glad to know at least sometimes I can be helpful. :D

  • -SPI--SPI- Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    term3.jpg
    I'm not sure how much further I should take this. I think I might clean it up a little and add a few choice details. I really want to avoid overworking this.

    8t2qhu8l050f.jpg
  • TheBogTheBog Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Oh, and I've never seen a terminator without a helmet on. Maybe I just haven't looked hard enough.

    10170-1.png
  • Lucky CynicLucky Cynic Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    TheBog wrote:
    Oh, and I've never seen a terminator without a helmet on. Maybe I just haven't looked hard enough.

    I have only seen one, and to be fair, I believe it was a player crafted model as it was painted very carefully with extra fine detail and have a unique base.

  • PhonehandPhonehand Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    TheBog wrote:
    Oh, and I've never seen a terminator without a helmet on. Maybe I just haven't looked hard enough.
    Sure they do.

    When I used to play a lot of people gave their HQs terminator armor.

    pmdunk.jpg
  • -SPI--SPI- Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
  • TheBogTheBog Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    EPIC FAIL on my part.

    10170-1.png
  • -SPI--SPI- Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    term4.jpg
    I need to rework the left arm (his left)

    8t2qhu8l050f.jpg
  • Doctor PainDoctor Pain Registered User
    edited January 2007
    this might just a nit-pick, but, that guy that hes setepping on looks like a stone statue, that armored guy seems like he weighs a lot, and would be kind of squishing that thing.

    I FUCKING HATE SIGNATURES.
  • AiranAiran Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Yeah, I dunno how tough Genestealers are, but I'd imagine even that body of theirs would be crushed under Terminator armor.

    Maybe it's the angle, but I'm imagining the Termy dude having a hunched back, and it seems his arms are being 'pulled apart' by the armor.
    However, I'm not familiar with how Terminators work (aside from playing Dawn of War), they might be just a suit of armor with a head attached :P

    paDudSig.jpg
  • wakkawawakkawa Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    silhouette things

    This is pretty weird, because I was thinking about this the other day when I first saw that haruko picture. Like, the exact same damn thing with comparing silhouettes.

    but I was too lazy to say anything. D:

  • -SPI--SPI- Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    termfin.jpg
    I'm finished with this one.

    8t2qhu8l050f.jpg
  • -SPI--SPI- Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    dmnt1.jpg
    WIP

    Doing a 40's/50's style daemonette pinup now.

    edit-
    dmnt1-1.jpg
    I might dump that background, it was pretty thrown together and I'm not sure about it.

    8t2qhu8l050f.jpg
  • -SPI--SPI- Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    dmnt1copypq8.jpg
    I'm pleased with this. The feet are a little niggly, but the rest seems good.

    8t2qhu8l050f.jpg
  • ViolenceManViolenceMan Registered User
    edited January 2007
    This still sems alittle unfocused, I would sharpen it up alittle if I were you.

    wheres.gif
  • Lexx KYSDSLexx KYSDS Registered User
    edited January 2007
    Aye, it looks like you stopped about halfway through your work, slapped a hasty background on it (which gets to looking mighty gradient-like about halfway down, there...) and called it good. It could definitely stand for sommore refinement, though it looks like you're using a mouse which makes clean work pretty bitchy. The crispness of the text also looks COMPLETELY out of place against all that fuzzy brushwork, and that background is taking more away from the piece than it's contributing, so I'd suggest either fixing it up or losing it alltogether.

    Don't get me wrong, it's looking very nice so far (especially her face/head/hair/whatever). It just doesn't look remotely finished.

    Rokan wrote:
    but im not screwing with you guys if i was i would ask you to color in like a cat or something
  • -SPI--SPI- Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Sadly I don't have all the time in the world to rework this one :( , so some minor cleanups and a reduced background. The BG was kinda halfway to where I wanted it to be, but unless it went the whole way you're right in saying I should just dump it.

    dmnt1acopyxz2.jpg
    And that's all I'm going to be able to do for that one.
    though it looks like you're using a mouse
    You're really inspiring confidence here. :lol: But no, this is tablet. There's no way I'd be able to manage this with a mouse.

    8t2qhu8l050f.jpg
  • Lexx KYSDSLexx KYSDS Registered User
    edited January 2007
    lul :B

    The reason I thought it was a mouse is that you don't appear to be getting much pressure sensitivity, not because of the quality of the work ;D Anyway, even with just the minor cleanup it looks a LOT better (especially without that background).

    Rokan wrote:
    but im not screwing with you guys if i was i would ask you to color in like a cat or something
  • ScosglenScosglen Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    SPI, even if you don't have the time to polish up the entire image, going over the contour with a hard edged eraser on full opacity to clean up the edges can do a lot for you. Silhouette is one of the most important things to make sure you nail if you want a figure to read well, and a simple way to help this along is to make sure your edges are clean where they need to be.

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