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Italy, youtube, they do be crazy!

zeenyzeeny Registered User regular
edited February 2010 in Debate and/or Discourse
Well, Italy are certainly trying very hard to raise the bar and one-up Australia on internet dumb.

Disgusting video posted on youtube, google is informed, video removed, google cooperate with request for poster identity,,,so far so good?.. here is what comes next:

But in this instance, a public prosecutor in Milan decided to indict four Google employees —David Drummond, Arvind Desikan, Peter Fleischer and George Reyes (who left the company in 2008). The charges brought against them were criminal defamation and a failure to comply with the Italian privacy code. To be clear, none of the four Googlers charged had anything to do with this video. They did not appear in it, film it, upload it or review it. None of them know the people involved or were even aware of the video's existence until after it was removed.

At this point, most people laughed at and ridiculed the Italian prosecution. It frankly seemed asinine. The punchline?


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8533695.stm
Spoiler:


The possible implications:

Nevertheless, a judge in Milan today convicted 3 of the 4 defendants — David Drummond, Peter Fleischer and George Reyes — for failure to comply with the Italian privacy code. All 4 were found not guilty of criminal defamation. In essence this ruling means that employees of hosting platforms like Google Video are criminally responsible for content that users upload.


Let's have a good laugh at Italy and their scooters, organized crime and fashion, which seem to be the only 3 things they are doing well!
Very difficult to say which is more maddening, that those people were convicted, or that the reason for the conviction is a "privacy law". This is very unlikely to stand, as the current EU communications legislation has a special exemption for "service providers", but it's still a very annoying decision, IMO, and we can only hope that other EU nations don't get the same idea.

zeeny on
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Posts

  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Even if it is allowed to stand, the only likely ramification is Google pulling out of Italy. And I can't imagine that that is going to make the Italians particularly happy.

  • TomantaTomanta Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    It does certainly win my "dumb of the day" award, and it was one of the first things I saw when I woke up this morning.

    camo_sig2.png
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    I hope Italians enjoy their upcoming lack of google access. Probably Youtube and any blog system as well.

    And you thought not having Hulu was hell.

    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. On Hiatus!

    Any gamers in the Danville, PA area? PM me if you're interested in some tabletop gaming.
  • saint2esaint2e Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Was Guiliano Mignini the head prosecutor, by chance?

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  • AldoAldo Hippo Hooray the swamp, always the swampRegistered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Italy is insane in more than one way. Chances are they're hoping for bribes from the companies to drop all charges.

    Alternative, lets pull the plug on Italy. Oh and while we're at it can we kick them out of the EU and the NATO? They're nothing but a nuisance.

    Elendil wrote: »
    said Aldo hazily, before clop-clop-clopping out of the room
  • SyphonBlueSyphonBlue Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
  • ForarForar #432 Already prepping for Toronto Fan Expo!Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
  • SageinaRageSageinaRage Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    I was thinking about how to constructively add to a discussion about differences in culture, expectations of online behavior and access, changes in how we handle anonymity online...

    but no, this is just dumb. If this is Italy's law, then they should set up a giant firewall and block youtube and the rest of the interactive internet, like China does.

  • Capt HowdyCapt Howdy Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Italy's first step to ban the interwebs, or make all the internet companies stay away? The internet is a dangerous thing, at least that's Iran and China's view of it.

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  • AldoAldo Hippo Hooray the swamp, always the swampRegistered User regular
    edited February 2010
    I was thinking about how to constructively add to a discussion about differences in culture, expectations of online behavior and access, changes in how we handle anonymity online...

    but no, this is just dumb. If this is Italy's law, then they should set up a giant firewall and block youtube and the rest of the interactive internet, like China does.
    Actually, China has loads of interactive websites, it's just that there's government officials keeping an eye on whatever is hosted, instead of moderators of commercial companies...

    Elendil wrote: »
    said Aldo hazily, before clop-clop-clopping out of the room
  • KalTorakKalTorak Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Capt Howdy wrote: »
    Italy's first step to ban the interwebs, or make all the internet companies stay away? The internet is a dangerous thing, at least that's Iran and China's view of it.

    And Australia's.

  • zeenyzeeny Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    I was thinking about how to constructively add to a discussion about differences in culture, expectations of online behavior and access, changes in how we handle anonymity online...

    but no, this is just dumb. If this is Italy's law, then they should set up a giant firewall and block youtube and the rest of the interactive internet, like China does.

    It is, especially if you keep in mind that the actual perpetrators in the video have already been convicted.

  • PantsBPantsB Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Disgusting video posted on youtube, google is informed, video removed, google cooperate with request for poster identity,,,so far so good?
    Hell, even that is too onerous but freedom of expression is one thing US politics has over EU politics at least. Criminal defamation? Privacy violation? The fucking nerve.
    SyphonBlue wrote: »
    .....free speechless.

    11793-1.png
    Spoiler:
  • kildykildy Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Such a stupid ruling. It's not even like the company refused to remove the material, they cooperated entirely and random execs get sued for... helping the government?

    I'm not even sure how you can demand people proactively remove any offensive material from upload sites or comment pages. Why not just sue any company for being an accessory to crimes committed on their property?

  • YarYar Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Some general goings-on in the world of politics that I hate:

    1) The manner in which the vague and largely meaningless term "privacy" can be wielded in the judiciary to rule for or against any damned thing you can imagine.

    2) Greedy depsicable leeches in European and S. American governments who look for any way they can to attack or rob American global corporations.

    3) The deeply rooted assumption that "hey, it's the Internet, we can't be held responsible for what goes on on our servers!"

  • zeenyzeeny Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Yar wrote: »
    Some general goings-on in the world of politics that I hate:

    1) The manner in which the vague and largely meaningless term "privacy" can be wielded in the judiciary to rule for or against any damned thing you can imagine.

    2) Greedy depsicable leeches in European and S. American governments who look for any way they can to attack or rob American global corporations.

    3) The deeply rooted assumption that "hey, it's the Internet, we can't be held responsible for what goes on on our servers!"

    Yes, we've discussed it you and me(re:Verizon's newsgroups, I believe).
    You were completely ignorant in regards of letter of the law regarding ISP and web service providers in the EU or the US then and while I understand that you still hate the situation, there are safe harbor provisions in every communications act out there. Nothing is more reasonable than "We are not responsible for bytes we do not own when we do not even know what they are. If they are illegal, let us know and we'll act immediately and assist you in discovering the guilty party."

  • kildykildy Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    I don't think 3 is entirely a defense used. It's mostly "hey, if you tell us about something, we'll look at it and fix it if it needs to be"

    Mostly because the only other option is to have a 48-72 hour period where uploads are screened and a large staff of screeners well versed in every country's internet related laws on what content is acceptable.

    Any live/rapid upload system like a comments board, this forum, or anything else is pretty much impossible to pre-moderate. The Mods on PA can't stop me right now from posting something massively offensive/illegal in this text field. They CAN remove it after the fact, but they can't automagically know I'm about to do it.

    The issue in this court case is that the legal system seems to think they should be able to automagically stop me, and removing it the second they see it isn't enough.

  • DmanDman Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Yeah I'm shocked.

    If google had refused to co-operate I'd understand but they did everything they could possibly be expected to do...

    Many ISP's offer free hosting for a home website....I can easily see posting pictures on it that violate privacy law, does that mean italy holds random executives of that ISP criminally liable?

    WTF Italy?

  • ronzoronzo Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Yeah, 3 makes no fucking sense because its safe harbor

    We've had these laws in place for over 100 years now, or would you expect teleco's to know whats happening on every phone call?

  • kildykildy Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    ronzo wrote: »
    Yeah, 3 makes no fucking sense because its safe harbor

    We've had these laws in place for over 100 years now, or would you expect teleco's to know whats happening on every phone call?

    Well, it depends on the country... :winky:

  • JoJoHoraHoraJoJoHoraHora ItalyRegistered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Where's that Picard facepalm image?

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  • SageinaRageSageinaRage Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Yar wrote: »
    3) The deeply rooted assumption that "hey, it's the Internet, we can't be held responsible for what goes on on our servers!"

    I'm curious to know how you would change the current situation, without requiring pre-approval for everything posted onto the internet, and thus slowing the internet down to a level of pointlessness, and also requiring millions of legal decisions every day on what should be approved, and so raising the cost of business to the level of unprofitability.

  • JustinSane07JustinSane07 __BANNED USERS regular
    edited February 2010
    So...

    did they try these guys in absence or did 4 Google employees actually fly out to Italy to stand trial?

    and are they being held in Italy?

    I basically want to know if they're in the USA giving the middle finger to Italy or if they're going along with it.

  • HenroidHenroid Nobody Nowhere fastRegistered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Didn't Italy convict an American student of having a hand in another student's murder just because she was involved in an orgy with that other student?

    I'm not sure if I trust Italy's court system to not be seeking to punish as many people as remotely possible.

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  • Orochi_RockmanOrochi_Rockman __BANNED USERS
    edited February 2010
    Henroid wrote: »
    Didn't Italy convict an American student of having a hand in another student's murder just because she was involved in an orgy with that other student?

    I'm not sure if I trust Italy's court system to not be seeking to punish as many people as remotely possible.

    I was just thinking as I read that "Wasn't there another Sad Italian Court thread on here not too long ago?" Was that it? I remember facepalming over Italian Courts before.

  • Darkchampion3dDarkchampion3d Registered User
    edited February 2010
    Google should just block Italy for a few days and wait for the reversal.

    Our country is now taking so steady a course as to show by what road it will pass to destruction, to wit: by consolidation of power first, and then corruption, its necessary consequence --Thomas Jefferson
  • Capt HowdyCapt Howdy Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    So if Wiki puts up things they don't like, can they be prosecuted as well? Or am I reading too much/little into this?

    Damn, I can see where I'm going with this.

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  • psychotixpsychotix __BANNED USERS
    edited February 2010
    All of the EU is crazy. Just out to steal money from other corporations to fuel their expenses, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/google/7301299/Google-under-investigation-for-alleged-breach-of-EU-competition-rules.html

    <img class=" title=":lol:" class="bbcode_smiley" />

  • MalkorMalkor Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Google should just block Italy for a few days and wait for the reversal.
    I like the precedent that would send, if Google's gonna take over the world they might as well start with a country that messed with them first (and is not China). Or, they could buy up Italian corporations and break them up.

    14271f3c-c765-4e74-92b1-49d7612675f2.jpg
  • kildykildy Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    psychotix wrote: »
    All of the EU is crazy. Just out to steal money from other corporations to fuel their expenses, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/google/7301299/Google-under-investigation-for-alleged-breach-of-EU-competition-rules.html

    <img class=" title=":lol:" class="bbcode_smiley" />

    Glancing through that article and then doing a few searches, it seems like a really convoluted case. It's all going to hinge on if Foundem changed anything shortly before their KPIs went back up. Because as far as I can see, every web expert that looked at their page went "wow, your SEO sucks, that's why you rank so low", while Foundem seems to think it's Google being out to get them.

  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Malkor wrote: »
    Google should just block Italy for a few days and wait for the reversal.
    I like the precedent that would send, if Google's gonna take over the world they might as well start with a country that messed with them first (and is not China). Or, they could buy up Italian corporations and break them up.

    Pax Google.

  • Captain CarrotCaptain Carrot Harrisonburg, VARegistered User regular
    edited February 2010
  • Andrew_JayAndrew_Jay Registered User
    edited February 2010
    Dman wrote: »
    WTF Italy?
    You have your question and answer in the same sentence.

    It is almost Zen-like.

  • MalaysianShrewMalaysianShrew Registered User
    edited February 2010
    So as a SysAdmin who has worked servers owned by Italians, would I then be liable under Italian law if they start serving questionable material?

    I better go see some Roman ruins now before I'm wanted by the government.

    Never trust a big butt and a smile.
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Andrew_Jay wrote: »
    Dman wrote: »
    WTF Italy?
    You have your question and answer in the same sentence.

    It is almost Zen-like.

    Pretty much every non-stupid argument for not allowing Turkey to join the EU can be rebutted by just citing Italy.

  • KalkinoKalkino Buttons Londres Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Ok so we know how we all feel about this but has anyone seen or read anything that would shed some light on whether or not this is a normal or foreseeable interpretation of the Italian law in question?
    It might well be that this decision is truly odd even in Italy but on the other hand it might be a perfectly reasonable application of Italian law, which could seem alien to us Anglo types

    Freedom for the Northern Isles!
  • Andrew_JayAndrew_Jay Registered User
    edited February 2010
    Couscous wrote: »
    Andrew_Jay wrote: »
    Dman wrote: »
    WTF Italy?
    You have your question and answer in the same sentence.

    It is almost Zen-like.
    Pretty much every non-stupid argument for not allowing Turkey to join the EU can be rebutted by just citing Italy.
    Throw in Greece too. By next month it looks the EU will end up virtually running the country.

  • AldoAldo Hippo Hooray the swamp, always the swampRegistered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Andrew_Jay wrote: »
    Throw in Greece too. By next month it looks the EU will end up virtually running the country.
    And Spain, Portugal and most of eastern Europe too.

    Really, corruption and shifty financial dealings are par of the course for most of the EU.

    Elendil wrote: »
    said Aldo hazily, before clop-clop-clopping out of the room
  • kildykildy Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Kalkino wrote: »
    Ok so we know how we all feel about this but has anyone seen or read anything that would shed some light on whether or not this is a normal or foreseeable interpretation of the Italian law in question?
    It might well be that this decision is truly odd even in Italy but on the other hand it might be a perfectly reasonable application of Italian law, which could seem alien to us Anglo types

    I don't think such a thing exists. We're talking about a country where you can get out of fraud charges by delaying the trial, since the statute of limitations keeps ticking while the trial progresses.

  • YarYar Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    zeeny wrote: »
    Yes, we've discussed it you and me(re:Verizon's newsgroups, I believe).
    You were completely ignorant in regards of letter of the law regarding ISP and web service providers in the EU or the US then and while I understand that you still hate the situation, there are safe harbor provisions in every communications act out there. Nothing is more reasonable than "We are not responsible for bytes we do not own when we do not even know what they are. If they are illegal, let us know and we'll act immediately and assist you in discovering the guilty party."
    Right, we never discussed the letter of the law. I understand safe harbor for user directed content. The dispute is over your assessment that nothing could be more reasonable. It only extends so far. Napster is a perfect example. For things like YouTube/Google Video, we presume that the overall good faith and awesomeness of the service grants them the right to safe harbor. If something like Google Video were to evolve into a web site dominated by criminal content, the law would find a way to kick them right out of this figurative harbor.

    I'm not advocating that all Internet content must be moderated. A lot of sites operate that way, where all user content is screened. A lot of sites don't. All I'm saying is that when your company is profiting from ad revenue broadcasting bullies beating up a handicapped child, then there are a few people in this scenario who have even more of a right than you do to be outraged, and you need to toughen your skin and get ready for this kind of shit, and be cognizant of where the gray lines are between safe harbor and snuff. I don't share the defendants opinion of how "ridiculous" this is, despite the fact that I also don't necessarily think they should be found guilty of anything and I don't necessarily think that all user directed content needs to be pre-screened.

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