That's helpful, Tzeentch... stall my progression at no gain for yourself, thus guaranteeing I have no real reason to stop Slaanesh from winning.
Funny story Khorne, you were a silly goose for putting a warrior there in the first place. Did you think I was gonna stay there? And there was gain for myself, I moved warpstones around. Way to be pretty terrible at this.
Cultist to Estalia, I can't do anything to stop Slaanesh winning. 0/6
That's helpful, Tzeentch... stall my progression at no gain for yourself, thus guaranteeing I have no real reason to stop Slaanesh from winning.
Funny story Khorne, you were a silly goose for putting a warrior there in the first place. Did you think I was gonna stay there? And there was gain for myself, I moved warpstones around. Way to be pretty terrible at this.
Cultist to Estalia, I can't do anything to stop Slaanesh winning. 0/6
With nine cards he got two Field of Ecstasy's, three Degenerate Royalties, and two Insidious Lies.
Oh, and the first OW card handed him a pile of Nobles and Heroes.
That's actually pretty funny.
Yep, it was pretty crazy. Field of Ecstasy, two Degenerate Royalties and an Insidious Lies in the first draw, and a Field of Ecstasy and Degenerate Royalty in the second.
And then The Crusader Old World Card to top it off.
It has to be said though, that I would not have doubled up on the Nobels in Empire and Kislev. It pretty much meant I had to go to Norsca and Troll Country, or try for the big win in The Empire.
Yes, admittedly that did make for some ridiculously high-point gains in the first couple turns, but I felt that by concentrating the Nobles in those regions that already had Nobles would allow Khorne to adequately mitigate your click-gains within the first couple turns. Little did I know that you'd get the freak draw you did to turn it into a point-haven. I'm not even sure if there would have been a place to put them around the board to make the game go any different. Suggestions, using 20/20 hindsight?
susan on
2010 PAX DM Challenge Grand Champion 2011 PAX Warmachine/Hordes Champion
With nine cards he got two Field of Ecstasy's, three Degenerate Royalties, and two Insidious Lies.
Oh, and the first OW card handed him a pile of Nobles and Heroes.
That's actually pretty funny.
Yep, it was pretty crazy. Field of Ecstasy, two Degenerate Royalties and an Insidious Lies in the first draw, and a Field of Ecstasy and Degenerate Royalty in the second.
And then The Crusader Old World Card to top it off.
It has to be said though, that I would not have doubled up on the Nobels in Empire and Kislev. It pretty much meant I had to go to Norsca and Troll Country, or try for the big win in The Empire.
Yes, admittedly that did make for some ridiculously high-point gains in the first couple turns, but I felt that by concentrating the Nobles in those regions that already had Nobles would allow Khorne to adequately mitigate your click-gains within the first couple turns. Little did I know that you'd get the freak draw you did to turn it into a point-haven. I'm not even sure if there would have been a place to put them around the board to make the game go any different. Suggestions, using 20/20 hindsight?
I think I would have put them in The Border Princes and The Badland. That way I can either get my dial tokens from low value regions or fight with everyone else over the high value ones.
Of cause with the cards I got it probably wouldn't have mattered. Plus the fact that I have a boner for the populous regions and the fact that I don't really agreed with the common belief that Slaanesh should go for a dial victory. With only six cultist that means a max of three dial tokens. Tzeentch have two more cultist to play with and Khorne can get an obscene amount if he's lucky.
Also, the first time I played I was Nurgle, so I know that you can really shrew over Nurgle by corrupting the populous regions.
If I remember correctly then Nurgle is the one that is the least able to sabotage the other players with his Chaos cards. You really need the ruin upgrade card before regions start to get ruined, but you need four dials get the darn thing.
But this is only my third game, so what do I know? :?
admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
edited March 2010
Well, this game is basically over, so I'm going to start some ironically-titled Post-Game Commentary.
I'd like to hear what Darian has to say on this, because he's played quite a bit more than me, but I think that game mechanics-wise the early game is balanced against Khorne.
However, to then conclude that Khorne is weak is to ignore the bigger picture: you need Khorne. If anything was going to stop a run-away Slaanesh victory in this game (and I'm not saying it would've, but it's possible) it would've been Khorne with the versatility of 1-cost attack dice, possibly combined with wise Chaos card play from Tzeentch.*
I think that the approach to turn 1 and 2 should be to allow Khorne one dial tick (possibly two on turn 2, but for god's sake not two on turn 1) so he can control run-aways by turn 3.
This game has a strange balance that shifts dramatically as people get more aware of what can happen and what everyone can do. There's a very strong meta-game that the rather floaty nature of pbp games doesn't really capture.
*I'm not sifting off responsibility in this game. I know I played badly.
Hmm... This game *might* not be over. The Dice shall have to decide this one, but there's a fighting chance we still have a fighting chance. I suppose it was a mistake to overload Bretonnia to give ruination an option there, but such is life and we just need 2 aggregate hits from 3 dice to prevent it. Tilea will be harder, naturally, with us needing 4 total hits to prevent any VP, but we have 5 dice to do it with and only need 2 hits to dampen the pointage. Let's do this thing...
EDIT: My Google-Fu is failing me. Does anyone know of any sites nestled in these tubes that has a Prayer to the Dice Gods or some kind of equivalent? And if this hasn't been written yet, why not?
susan on
2010 PAX DM Challenge Grand Champion 2011 PAX Warmachine/Hordes Champion
Norse Reavers (peasants die at event) and Road Wardens (remove a Hero) are active.
Khorne (6/7) begins by establishing a Field of Carnage in Estalia (others cannot be summoned away) Nurgle (5/6) sends a leper into the fray at Tilea Tzeentch (6/6) ignores the scrum, instead protecting an acolyte in Estalia with a Warp Shield Slaanesh (5/6) joins the others, sending a seductress into Tilea from the Empire
Khorne (4/7) deploys a second bloodletter to Tilea Nurgle (5/6) releases a Plague Aura in Kislev (corruption adds to domination) Tzeentch (5/6) trains an acolyte in Bretonnia Slaanesh (4/6) whispers Insidious Lies in Kislev (+2 domination for each noble/hero)
Khorne (2/7) sends a bloodletter to Bretonnia Nurgle (4/6) plops a leper into Bretonnia Tzeentch (4/6) changes things a bit, Teleporting an acolyte from Tilea to Troll Country (instant) Slaanesh (4/6) makes contact with the Degenerate Royalty in Tilea (no effect)
Khorne (0/7) rests after sending a bloodletter from Kislev to Troll Country Nurgle (3/6) oozes a leper from the Empire to Tilea Tzeentch (3/6) trains a new acolyte in Norsca Slaanesh (4/6) makes contact with the Degenerate Royalty in Bretonnia (no effect)
Nurgle (2/6) sends a leper scuttling from the Empire to Bretonnia Tzeentch (2/6) orders an acolyte to drag a Warpstone from Troll Country to Estalia Slaanesh (4/6) continues making friends with the Degenerate Royalty in Bretonnia (no effect)
Nurgle (1/6) oozes another leper from the Empire to Bretonnia Tzeentch (1/6) sends an acolyte from Tilea to Norsca with a Warpstone
Slaanesh (4/6) performs a Perverse Infiltration of Norsca (instant effect)
Nurgle (0/6) sends a plaguebearer to help defend Tilea Tzeentch (0/6) slips an acolyte from Tilea to Estalia Slaanesh (3/6) sends a seductress from the Empire to Tilea
Slaanesh (0/6) slips the other three seductresses from the Empire to Bretonnia
1. Norsca - chanting and ceremonies for a fallen Hero
2. Troll Country - 2 dice
3. Kislev - 2 dice
4. The Empire - lonely warrior in a barren land
5. Bretonnia - 2 dice, 1 die
6. Estalia - mystical chanting heard
7. Tilea - 4 dice, 1 die
8. The Border Princes - lots of peasants scurrying about
9. The Badlands - tumbleweeds, being gathered by peasants
1. Khorne to roll for Troll Country, Kislev, and Bretonnia.
2. Tzeentch to roll for Bretonnia
3. Khorne to roll for Tilea
4. Nurgle to roll for Tilea
Let's keep these in strict order this round, please.
1. Norsca - chanting and ceremonies for a fallen Hero
2. Troll Country - whiff
3. Kislev - 1,1
4. The Empire - lonely warrior in a barren land
5. Bretonnia - 1,1 again, 1 die
6. Estalia - mystical chanting heard
7. Tilea - 4 dice, 1 die
8. The Border Princes - lots of peasants scurrying about
9. The Badlands - tumbleweeds, being gathered by peasants
[strike]1. Khorne to roll for Troll Country, Kislev, and Bretonnia.[/strike]
2. Tzeentch to roll for Bretonnia
3. Khorne to roll for Tilea
4. Nurgle to roll for Tilea
Let's keep these in strict order this round, please.
...Wow. Just... Wow. And I hate to say this, but I summoned my Warrior to Tilea.
Slaanesh's cultists have two hits... so I wouldn't worry too much about that.
I'm trying to do the math here. Correct me if I'm wrong. Worst-Case Scenario of zero hits and allowing the Ruination of Bretonnia and Tilea:
30 VP to start
5 VP Dominating Kislev
3 VP Dominating Bretonnia
8 VP Ruining Bretonnia
2 VP Dominating Tilea
6 VP Ruining Tilea
54 VP, everyone gets invited to a victory orgy
So... For the game to continue, we need to do one of the following things:
-Prevent the Ruination of Bretonnia = Tzeentch scoring 2 hits on 1 die and taking out my and Khorne's cultists
-Kill BOTH of Slaanesh's cultists in Tilea = Myself and Khorne scoring 4 hits off of 5 dice
...*cough*...
...Anyone found that prayer to the Dice Gods yet?
susan on
2010 PAX DM Challenge Grand Champion 2011 PAX Warmachine/Hordes Champion
*re-reads rules* ...Dangit. I need to score two hits with one guy...? ...Alright, I'm sacrificing 2 d6's, this should take a little while so I'll post my results shortly.
susan on
2010 PAX DM Challenge Grand Champion 2011 PAX Warmachine/Hordes Champion
*re-reads rules* ...Dangit. I need to score two hits with one guy...? ...Alright, I'm sacrificing 2 d6's, this should take a little while so I'll post my results shortly.
As long as something is in pain I count it as a win.
*sigh* Well, the observations were followed, 2d6 were sacrificed to the flame, and the Dice Gods have chosen to bless me with 1 Hit (bye-bye, Tzeentch Cultist). I shall not question their wisdom which is infinite in choosing Slaanesh to be their champion in this game, but shall instead take away from it a lesson in the random nature of the world, of how ridiculous circumstance and insignificant motions (the shuffling of a deck, the roll of a dice) can affect, nay, can control fate. And to succeed, one must account for this chance, this randomness, this Chaos in all of their dealings and strive to ride its erratic waves to whatever bright shore they takes us to.
Good Game, all, and congrats Brother Slaanesh. Dibs on the fold-out bed at the Victory Orgy.
susan on
2010 PAX DM Challenge Grand Champion 2011 PAX Warmachine/Hordes Champion
1. Norsca - chanting and ceremonies for a fallen Hero
2. Troll Country - whiff
3. Kislev - 1,1
4. The Empire - lonely warrior in a barren land
5. Bretonnia - 1,1 again, bloodsworn
6. Estalia - mystical chanting heard
7. Tilea - seductress, acolyte, acolyte
8. The Border Princes - lots of peasants scurrying about
9. The Badlands - tumbleweeds, being gathered by peasants
Khorne earns one DIAL token after rolling 5 ones in a row.
I'm not sure what's left to say... What could/should have been done differently, given the information available at the time and the resources at hand? No one could have predicted the freakishly good cards in Slaanesh's hand, and even given that the final point total still shows just how close this game was in the end. I do believe that if we had managed to forestall victory this turn, things NEXT turn would have been very interesting indeed, as Slaanesh wouldn't have Dialed and everyone would instantly be gunning for him. *shrug* Thoughts?
susan on
2010 PAX DM Challenge Grand Champion 2011 PAX Warmachine/Hordes Champion
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admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
admanb, I would like to offer a counter argument to your analysis that the game is balanced against Khorne, having played a little as all four Gods. This game requires a stark balance among players hoping for victory, not only in the Dial vs VP balance, but in the 'Go For the Win/Go For My Opponents' aspect of game play. Khorne is in the absolutely unique position among the Gods in that he Goes for the Win BY Going for his Opponents. He advances himself BY screwing over the other players, whereas whenever one of the other 3 Gods makes a move to completely screw over someone else they are expending valuable resources that could be spent towards making the next Dial. I won't say it doesn't have its drawbacks, but at the same time the sheer simplicity of the method is something to be envied and coveted by his peers.
susan on
2010 PAX DM Challenge Grand Champion 2011 PAX Warmachine/Hordes Champion
Posts
No reason to tip my hand to the Proletariat is there.
.
Island. Being on fire.
Funny story Khorne, you were a silly goose for putting a warrior there in the first place. Did you think I was gonna stay there? And there was gain for myself, I moved warpstones around. Way to be pretty terrible at this.
Cultist to Estalia, I can't do anything to stop Slaanesh winning. 0/6
Cultist from where?
.
Island. Being on fire.
Yes, admittedly that did make for some ridiculously high-point gains in the first couple turns, but I felt that by concentrating the Nobles in those regions that already had Nobles would allow Khorne to adequately mitigate your click-gains within the first couple turns. Little did I know that you'd get the freak draw you did to turn it into a point-haven. I'm not even sure if there would have been a place to put them around the board to make the game go any different. Suggestions, using 20/20 hindsight?
2011 PAX Warmachine/Hordes Champion
I think I would have put them in The Border Princes and The Badland. That way I can either get my dial tokens from low value regions or fight with everyone else over the high value ones.
Of cause with the cards I got it probably wouldn't have mattered. Plus the fact that I have a boner for the populous regions and the fact that I don't really agreed with the common belief that Slaanesh should go for a dial victory. With only six cultist that means a max of three dial tokens. Tzeentch have two more cultist to play with and Khorne can get an obscene amount if he's lucky.
Also, the first time I played I was Nurgle, so I know that you can really shrew over Nurgle by corrupting the populous regions.
If I remember correctly then Nurgle is the one that is the least able to sabotage the other players with his Chaos cards. You really need the ruin upgrade card before regions start to get ruined, but you need four dials get the darn thing.
But this is only my third game, so what do I know? :?
.
Island. Being on fire.
One Seductress from The Empire to Tilea. 3/6 PP
Three Seductresses from The Empire to Britonnia. 0/6 PP
.
Island. Being on fire.
Where did that cultist come from?
I'd like to hear what Darian has to say on this, because he's played quite a bit more than me, but I think that game mechanics-wise the early game is balanced against Khorne.
However, to then conclude that Khorne is weak is to ignore the bigger picture: you need Khorne. If anything was going to stop a run-away Slaanesh victory in this game (and I'm not saying it would've, but it's possible) it would've been Khorne with the versatility of 1-cost attack dice, possibly combined with wise Chaos card play from Tzeentch.*
I think that the approach to turn 1 and 2 should be to allow Khorne one dial tick (possibly two on turn 2, but for god's sake not two on turn 1) so he can control run-aways by turn 3.
This game has a strange balance that shifts dramatically as people get more aware of what can happen and what everyone can do. There's a very strong meta-game that the rather floaty nature of pbp games doesn't really capture.
*I'm not sifting off responsibility in this game. I know I played badly.
EDIT: My Google-Fu is failing me. Does anyone know of any sites nestled in these tubes that has a Prayer to the Dice Gods or some kind of equivalent? And if this hasn't been written yet, why not?
2011 PAX Warmachine/Hordes Champion
Norse Reavers (peasants die at event) and Road Wardens (remove a Hero) are active.
Nurgle (5/6) sends a leper into the fray at Tilea
Tzeentch (6/6) ignores the scrum, instead protecting an acolyte in Estalia with a Warp Shield
Slaanesh (5/6) joins the others, sending a seductress into Tilea from the Empire
Khorne (4/7) deploys a second bloodletter to Tilea
Nurgle (5/6) releases a Plague Aura in Kislev (corruption adds to domination)
Tzeentch (5/6) trains an acolyte in Bretonnia
Slaanesh (4/6) whispers Insidious Lies in Kislev (+2 domination for each noble/hero)
Khorne (2/7) sends a bloodletter to Bretonnia
Nurgle (4/6) plops a leper into Bretonnia
Tzeentch (4/6) changes things a bit, Teleporting an acolyte from Tilea to Troll Country (instant)
Slaanesh (4/6) makes contact with the Degenerate Royalty in Tilea (no effect)
Khorne (0/7) rests after sending a bloodletter from Kislev to Troll Country
Nurgle (3/6) oozes a leper from the Empire to Tilea
Tzeentch (3/6) trains a new acolyte in Norsca
Slaanesh (4/6) makes contact with the Degenerate Royalty in Bretonnia (no effect)
Nurgle (2/6) sends a leper scuttling from the Empire to Bretonnia
Tzeentch (2/6) orders an acolyte to drag a Warpstone from Troll Country to Estalia
Slaanesh (4/6) continues making friends with the Degenerate Royalty in Bretonnia (no effect)
Nurgle (1/6) oozes another leper from the Empire to Bretonnia
Tzeentch (1/6) sends an acolyte from Tilea to Norsca with a Warpstone
Slaanesh (4/6) performs a Perverse Infiltration of Norsca (instant effect)
Nurgle (0/6) sends a plaguebearer to help defend Tilea
Tzeentch (0/6) slips an acolyte from Tilea to Estalia
Slaanesh (3/6) sends a seductress from the Empire to Tilea
Slaanesh (0/6) slips the other three seductresses from the Empire to Bretonnia
1. Norsca - chanting and ceremonies for a fallen Hero
2. Troll Country - 2 dice
3. Kislev - 2 dice
4. The Empire - lonely warrior in a barren land
5. Bretonnia - 2 dice, 1 die
6. Estalia - mystical chanting heard
7. Tilea - 4 dice, 1 die
8. The Border Princes - lots of peasants scurrying about
9. The Badlands - tumbleweeds, being gathered by peasants
1. Khorne to roll for Troll Country, Kislev, and Bretonnia.
2. Tzeentch to roll for Bretonnia
3. Khorne to roll for Tilea
4. Nurgle to roll for Tilea
Let's keep these in strict order this round, please.
Troll Country (2d6.hitsopen(4,6)=0)
Kislev (2d6.hitsopen(4,6)=0)
Bretonnia (2d6.hitsopen(4,6)=0)
I swear to god this game is just fucking with me now. Tilea's the only one that matters, but still: 1,1 twice in a row?
Bretonnia mattered if Slaanesh somehow fails to auto-win in the next couple of turns. :P
2011 PAX Warmachine/Hordes Champion
Slaanesh's cultists have two hits... so I wouldn't worry too much about that.
I'm trying to do the math here. Correct me if I'm wrong. Worst-Case Scenario of zero hits and allowing the Ruination of Bretonnia and Tilea:
30 VP to start
5 VP Dominating Kislev
3 VP Dominating Bretonnia
8 VP Ruining Bretonnia
2 VP Dominating Tilea
6 VP Ruining Tilea
54 VP, everyone gets invited to a victory orgy
So... For the game to continue, we need to do one of the following things:
-Prevent the Ruination of Bretonnia = Tzeentch scoring 2 hits on 1 die and taking out my and Khorne's cultists
-Kill BOTH of Slaanesh's cultists in Tilea = Myself and Khorne scoring 4 hits off of 5 dice
...*cough*...
...Anyone found that prayer to the Dice Gods yet?
2011 PAX Warmachine/Hordes Champion
Tilea (4d6.hitsopen(4,6)=3)
Kill a Seductress and an Acolyte.
2011 PAX Warmachine/Hordes Champion
2011 PAX Warmachine/Hordes Champion
As long as something is in pain I count it as a win.
.
Island. Being on fire.
Good Game, all, and congrats Brother Slaanesh. Dibs on the fold-out bed at the Victory Orgy.
2011 PAX Warmachine/Hordes Champion
.
Island. Being on fire.
Inquisitor77: Rius, you are Sisyphus and melee Wizard is your boulder
Tube: This must be what it felt like to be an Iraqi when Saddam was killed
Bookish Stickers - Mrs. Rius' Etsy shop with bumper stickers and vinyl decals.
That's one way to say it.
But we did the turns quite fast too I think. Don't know if that's what you meant.
.
Island. Being on fire.
Inquisitor77: Rius, you are Sisyphus and melee Wizard is your boulder
Tube: This must be what it felt like to be an Iraqi when Saddam was killed
Bookish Stickers - Mrs. Rius' Etsy shop with bumper stickers and vinyl decals.
1. Norsca - chanting and ceremonies for a fallen Hero
2. Troll Country - whiff
3. Kislev - 1,1
4. The Empire - lonely warrior in a barren land
5. Bretonnia - 1,1 again, bloodsworn
6. Estalia - mystical chanting heard
7. Tilea - seductress, acolyte, acolyte
8. The Border Princes - lots of peasants scurrying about
9. The Badlands - tumbleweeds, being gathered by peasants
Khorne earns one DIAL token after rolling 5 ones in a row.
Board after battle:
1. Norsca - Tzeentch dominates for 1 VP (2 > 1)
Tzeentch places 2 corruption DIAL
2. Troll Country - No domination (1 = 1)
No corruption
3. Kislev - Slaanesh dominates for 5 VP (7 > 4 > 3 > 1)
No corruption
4. The Empire - Ruined
5. Bretonnia - Slaanesh dominates for 3 VP (10 > 4 > 3 > 2 > 1)
Nurgle places 4 corruption DIAL
Tzeentch places 1 corruption
Slaanesh places 4 corruption
Bretonnia is the second region ruined (2 + 5 + 1 + 4)
Nurgle, Tzeentch, and Slaanesh each receive 4 VP for contributing to its ruination this round.
6. Estalia - No Domination (4 > 3 > 1)
Tzeentch places 3 corruption DIAL
7. Tilea - Slaanesh dominates for 2 VP (4 > 3 > 2 = 2 > 1)
Nurgle places 2 corruption
Slaanesh places 1 corruption
Tilea is the third region ruined (2 + 10 + 1)
Nurgle and Slaanesh each receive 4 VP for contributing to its ruination this round.
8. The Border Princes - quiet
9. The Badlands - tumbleweeds
VP:
Khorne: 7
Nurgle: 21 + 8 = 29
Tzeentch: 7 + 5 = 12
Slaanesh: 30 + 18 = 48
DIAL tokens:
Khorne: 1
Nurgle: 1
Tzeentch: 2
Slaanesh: 0
Board at the start of the end phase:
(will insert later)
1. Remove Chaos Cards from the Board - Warp Shield dissipates
2. Hero Tokens are resolved - Khorne loses a Bloodletter in Troll Country and in Kislev, Tzeentch loses an acolyte in Estalia
3. Resolve Old World cards
Road Wardens - Khorne removes a Hero
Reavers - Peasants are killed in Bretonnia and Tilea
4. Score Ruined Regions
Bretonnia - Nurgle scores 9 VP, Slaanesh scores 4 VP
Tilea - Tzeentch scores 8 VP, Nurgle scores 4 VP
5. Advance Threat Dials - Tzeentch has the most and clicks twice; Khorne and Nurgle
Khorne:
12 - Upgrade
Nurgle:
13 - Upgrade
Tzeentch:
20 - Upgrade
21 - Place 2 Warpstones
VP:
Khorne: 7
Nurgle: 29 + 13 = 42
Tzeentch: 12 + 8 = 20
Slaanesh: 48 + 4 = 52
6. Check for Game end
a. Dial track - no victory
b. at least 50 points - Slaanesh wins a VP victory!
Postgame analysis may now commence.
2011 PAX Warmachine/Hordes Champion
This breaks my heart, it really does.
2011 PAX Warmachine/Hordes Champion