I dunno, but after barely surviving as a people my countries genocide 70 years ago, I'd say they deserve some peace and not need the whole Muslim world organizing agaisnt them.
How do you think the Palestinians feel after having the same thing done to them for just about 60 years now, on top of having their homes pulled out from under them then and now?
In the immortal words of the Zohan,
"No, you're right. My people haven't had any claim to these lands thousands of years, too. My bad."
Honestly the Israel suck rah rah Palestine rhetoric annoyed me to no end when I was at Berkeley (along with some other things, like affirmative action and hyper-tree hugging)
I dunno, but after barely surviving as a people my countries genocide 70 years ago, I'd say they deserve some peace and not need the whole Muslim world organizing agaisnt them.
You realize that when Western Europe and the U.S. decided to dump all the Jews in the Middle East (and if you felt so bad for them, why couldn't they just stay with you?) people were already living there, right?
The 'thousands of years' argument is just the stupidest shit ever. That much dumber for all the white people in North America who use it.
hey assholes, some other folks lived there first. FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS, EVEN.
Wait, so you are saying Israel is just like European Settlers?
Are these REALLY the people you want to be comparing yourself too?
What? I'm saying, pretty clearly I thought, that 'lived here thousands of years ago' isn't a valid reason for invading an area and kicking it's population out.
IE: can the descendants of the Lakota tribe come kick out everyone from their 'ancestral lands' by force of arms because those were their ancestral lands?
The 'thousands of years' argument is just the stupidest shit ever. That much dumber for all the white people in North America who use it.
hey assholes, some other folks lived there first. FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS, EVEN.
Wait, so you are saying Israel is just like European Settlers?
Are these REALLY the people you want to be comparing yourself too?
What? I'm saying, pretty clearly I thought, that 'lived here thousands of years ago' isn't a valid reason for invading an area and kicking it's population out.
IE: can the descendants of the Lakota tribe come kick out everyone from their 'ancestral lands' by force of arms because those were their ancestral lands?
I dunno, but after barely surviving as a people my countries genocide 70 years ago, I'd say they deserve some peace and not need the whole Muslim world organizing agaisnt them.
How do you think the Palestinians feel after having the same thing done to them for just about 60 years now, on top of having their homes pulled out from under them then and now?
In the immortal words of the Zohan,
"No, you're right. My people haven't had any claim to these lands thousands of years, too. My bad."
Your making this point when in every other tread your complaining about Mexican immigrants making use of Texan resources, wearing Hecho en mexico t-shirts and only speaking Spanish?
Have you thought about who has a comparable claim to the land your living on right now?
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
IE: can the descendants of the Lakota tribe come kick out everyone from their 'ancestral lands' by force of arms because those were their ancestral lands?
Well, if the UN creates and recognizes a state for them, backed by the political will and support of the entire Western civilization, I suppose they probably could.
Or do you want to speak in realities? The reality is that the state of Israel isn't going away. Every mainstream anti-Israeli ideology refuses to acknowledge this, and therefore the dialogue is doomed.
The leading political and financial supporters of the Palestinian state are such distinguished luminaries as Iran, Syria, and Lebanon, all nations who have gone on record as denying the Holocaust, funding terrorist acts against civilians, and denying even the most basic human freedoms to their own citizens.
So it may be a case of at-large Ad Hominem, but I seriously doubt it. I see no reason to extend special courtesy in this matter to murdering, inhuman, racist fundamentalists just because a legally recognized state has some questionable methods of defending its sovereignty. But I tell you what: as soon as nations with instated Sharia law give up that bullshit and stop killing their own citizens for crimes like "speaking outside your house" or "being female in public," I'll lend an ear to their plight.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
Your making this point when in every other tread your complaining about Mexican immigrants making use of Texan resources, wearing Hecho en mexico t-shirts and only speaking Spanish?
Have you thought about who has a comparable claim to the land your living on right now?
I think the advent of random missile strikes and suicide bombings changes the context of that comparison, wouldn't you think?
IE: can the descendants of the Lakota tribe come kick out everyone from their 'ancestral lands' by force of arms because those were their ancestral lands?
Well... I see no reason to extend special courtesy in this matter to murdering, inhuman, racist fundamentalists
But enough about Israel, what do you think about the Boycott campaign?
Your problem is labeling folks who want to see a free Palestinian state as "anti-Israeli". It's not a zero-sum issue. The mainstream view is a two-state solution.[
Worse is an insistence on discounting the Palestinians because of a few of their supporters, governments in Iran, Syria, etc. who see the Palestinians as a useful political tool and little more.
The discounting of the legitimate Palestinian movement is unfortunate, and I do wish their political heft meant more. But I can't hardly blame Israel for actions they've taken in the face of determined genocide.
I mean, I hate to pull Godwin out, but an Israel-friendly Palestinian liberation movement probably has as much political relevance as a Jew-friendly pro-Nazi movement.
Well, if the UN creates and recognizes a state for them, backed by the political will and support of the entire Western civilization, I suppose they probably could.
I think what you meant to say was 'yeah Ego, you were right and I was wrong, the thousands-years-claims-FORTHECHILDREN argument is really stupid.'
Ego on
Erik
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
hint: It ain't the Israelis that are the victims of genocide here
. . . so it's the Holocaust-denying zealots striving to "wipe Israel off the planet?"
And "genocide" is a pretty broad term in its context here. The term is usually reserved for specific ethnic or religious groups. Israelis aren't fighting Islam or Arab-Persians, they're fighting the people they share a border with. You engage in combat with your antagonist: Did the British commit genocide against Americans in the Revolution? Did the Allies commit genocide against the Axis powers? If Israel really wanted to commit genocide against exclusively Palestine, it wouldn't be too much work; It would be like the US declaring war on Haiti.
But I can't hardly blame Israel for actions they've taken in the face of determined genocide.
Ahhhh....hmm....errr....aaaa....no?
hint: It ain't the Israelis that are the victims of genocide here
Israel is systematically killing the Arab populations of Israel and Palestine? That's news to me.
The current nomenclature seems to be driven by the same logic as accusations of Obama being a Commusocialist: the people using them don't know what they mean besides that they dislike them as much as their target. Apartheid is the forced resettlement of an ethnic minority, not unlike historical American policies towards native americans, and genocide is the intentional destruction of an ethnic group. Given that Israel has a large Arab population that it is currently not taking any actions against, Israeli policies have no way of being any more genocide than if we finally decided to get rid of the south once and for all.
What Israel is doing is an occupation and blockade of a hostile power. Not ethical warfare, but also not ethnic cleansing in any form. It is mainly continued because, while both sides want an end, neither side can agree to terms under which it would be official, kind of like how one US territory has a majority of citizens who want to be independent OR a state, but can't get enough people to back one solution, except with more shooting.
But I can't hardly blame Israel for actions they've taken in the face of determined genocide.
Ahhhh....hmm....errr....aaaa....no?
hint: It ain't the Israelis that are the victims of genocide here
Israel is systematically killing the Arab populations of Israel and Palestine? That's news to me.
The current nomenclature seems to be driven by the same logic as accusations of Obama being a Commusocialist: the people using them don't know what they mean besides that they dislike them as much as their target. Apartheid is the forced resettlement of an ethnic minority, not unlike historical American policies towards native americans, and genocide is the intentional destruction of an ethnic group. Given that Israel has a large Arab population that it is currently not taking any actions against, Israeli policies have no way of being any more genocide than if we finally decided to get rid of the south once and for all.
What Israel is doing is an occupation and blockade of a hostile power. Not ethical warfare, but also not ethnic cleansing in any form. It is mainly continued because, while both sides want an end, neither side can agree to terms under which it would be official, kind of like how one US territory has a majority of citizens who want to be independent OR a state, but can't get enough people to back one solution, except with more shooting.
Genocide? No. Ethnic cleansing? Yes. Palestinians are forced off their land. Jewish settlers move in to take it over. The goal is to remove on ethnicity from an area and replace it with another. That is ethnic cleansing.
Israel is systematically killing the Arab populations of Israel and Palestine? That's news to me.
The current nomenclature seems to be driven by the same logic as accusations of Obama being a Commusocialist: the people using them don't know what they mean besides that they dislike them as much as their target. Apartheid is the forced resettlement of an ethnic minority, not unlike historical American policies towards native americans, and genocide is the intentional destruction of an ethnic group. Given that Israel has a large Arab population that it is currently not taking any actions against...
Depending on how you define "not taking any action against," that's debatable.
Personally, I'd call putting a guy who wants to do exactly that in charge of your foreign policy and one step away from the presidency "taking actions against their large Arab populace."
What Israel is doing is an occupation and blockade of a hostile power. Not ethical warfare, but also not ethnic cleansing in any form.
I think a lot of anyones perspective on this issue revolves around how they define the conflict. I see the Palestinians, as a state at war with Israel. They had their own UN mandated state, used it to launch a bunch of wars against Israel, and are now basically underground resistance fighters in an occupied territory(except for all the civilian targeting, but no analogy is perfect). This means that Israeli actions can only be judged against a 'rules of war' standards; which frown very hard on non-uniformed combatants, intentionally targeting civilians, hostage taking, POW abuse/execution, and not so hard on collateral damage casualties.
What Israel is doing is an occupation and blockade of a hostile power. Not ethical warfare, but also not ethnic cleansing in any form.
I think a lot of anyones perspective on this issue revolves around how they define the conflict. I see the Palestinians, as a state at war with Israel. They had their own UN mandated state, used it to launch a bunch of wars against Israel, and are now basically underground resistance fighters in an occupied territory(except for all the civilian targeting, but no analogy is perfect). This means that Israeli actions can only be judged against a 'rules of war' standards; which frown very hard on non-uniformed combatants, intentionally targeting civilians, hostage taking, POW abuse/execution, and not so hard on collateral damage casualties.
The problem with having this perspective is that it is built on lies. The historical record shows that Zionist terrorist groups were engaged in acts of terror and ethnic cleansing during the 1947-1948 period - something that the state of Israel tries very hard to cover up because acknowledging it would mean having to accept that they were not victims, but active participants - and all of their arguments for their positions since would be revealed to be lies.
You're welcome to your own opinions, but not your own facts. And the facts show that your definition of the conflict is a false one.
hint: It ain't the Israelis that are the victims of genocide here
. . . so it's the Holocaust-denying zealots striving to "wipe Israel off the planet?"
That's great, equate millions of uneducated, poverty-stricken people with their leadership. Seriously, what is it with you and believing that Muslims are all the same?
But I can't hardly blame Israel for actions they've taken in the face of determined genocide.
Last month, more people died in my country in car accidents then Israelis have been killed by rocket attacks during their entire existence. I'm not even going to talk about stuff like targeted murders in U.S. cities and the like. If that's "determined genocide", then I suppose UN should be sending troops to Detroit right now.
Anyone who thinks that the rocket attacks are half as horrible as the systematic opression Palestinians experience every day is retarded.
hint: It ain't the Israelis that are the victims of genocide here
. . . so it's the Holocaust-denying zealots striving to "wipe Israel off the planet?"
You do realise that Israel funded Hamas in order to destabilise the PLO and make it more difficult for them to maintain security in the areas that they were supposed to control, thus making it far easier to justify further subversion of palestinian sovereignty.
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HonkHonk is this poster.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
edited March 2010
The term genocide does not only refer to the systematic killing of a people.
any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Of which A might be applicable, I don't know how many deaths are required to make it count. B definitely applies I'd say. And C definitely applies.
Genocide is a tricky term because it can be interpreted pretty much like you want to after these requirements, it looks to me like it does apply though. So yes, genocide indeed.
Problem I have with these long perpetual arguments is that it's all continued rage talked about in the comfort of our homes while we scorn either the Israeli's for performing ethical cleansing or the Palestinians for being bad terrorists. Any way you look at it both sides are as bad as each other.
Things are not going to magically change and it becomes far to easy to blame an entire country for a small minorities fault. No, not all Palestinians are terrorists or freedom fighters or whatever. Alot of them just want to get on with there lives. Not all Israeli's are zionist and alot of them agree that peace talks are right and settlements into illegal areas are wrong.
The problems lies in the Governments both Israel and Palestine are currently in. They're both corrupt and hate each other. Israel's government is led by Netanyahu, of whom we only need to look back at his history to see the likelyhood of him shaking hands and making peace with his neighbours are slim. Palestine meanwhile is under the hands of Hamas, a militant terrorist organisation who would rather wipe Israel off the face of the Earth.
And so the fighting continues, a neverending war of control. Israel's politics is so fixated in survival now that the chance for peace is always a slim one. They are a country constantly under threat from all sides and as such they have trench warfare psychology. The Palestinians meanwhile have no hope as they're continually being bombarded and driven out, and the more that occurs the more likely they will attempt to retaliate in kind.
Truth is the best way to solve it is to let them get on blowing each other up. If we shove our noses in it we'll just get a bloody one.
Truth is the best way to solve it is to let them get on blowing each other up. If we shove our noses in it we'll just get a bloody one.
Except that Israel's army is literally a million times more powerful then Hamas, and we know where this course will eventually end. Sure, Hamas would be dead, but that could not be achieved without tens of thousands or maybe hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties. And those casualties would provide more pissed off Palestinians who in turn would form a new terrorist group, and it would go on an on until there would not be any more Palestinians left.
Problem I have with these long perpetual arguments is that it's all continued rage talked about in the comfort of our homes while we scorn either the Israeli's for performing ethical cleansing or the Palestinians for being bad terrorists. Any way you look at it both sides are as bad as each other.
Personally, I think they're only as bad as each other if they're on equal terms. But they're not. Israel have far superior weapons and, I assume, better education than the Palestinians. It's the equivalent of an 18 year old beating the crap out of a 10 year old.
Personally, I think they're only as bad as each other if they're on equal terms. But they're not. Israel have far superior weapons and, I assume, better education than the Palestinians. It's the equivalent of an 18 year old beating the crap out of a 10 year old.
if the 10 year old keeps throwing stones at the 18 year old (even if he missed half of them beacose he sucks) the 18 is perfecly in his right to beat the living shit out of the 10 year old until he stops throwing those rocks
Can he also contually steal the kids lunch money, and hurt the little sister watching on in terror? Because continuous landgrabbing has nothing to do with terrorist threats. And last year documents surfaced that proved what everyone already knew: That the Israeli government actively supports and is actively involved in reassigning Palastinian land to Israel, in flagrant disregard of earlier treaties.
And Israel really does it's best to fuck with Palastinian infrastructure any way it can. Like holding palastinian grown flowers for "security reasons" until they are unsellable. It's pure dickery.
Personally, I think they're only as bad as each other if they're on equal terms. But they're not. Israel have far superior weapons and, I assume, better education than the Palestinians. It's the equivalent of an 18 year old beating the crap out of a 10 year old.
if the 10 year old keeps throwing stones at the 18 year old (even if he missed half of them beacose he sucks) the 18 is perfecly in his right to beat the living shit out of the 10 year old until he stops throwing those rocks
You would actually beat the living shit out of a child throwing rocks at you? Wow.
You wouldn't shoot them though, so I guess that makes you better then IDF.
The problems lies in the Governments both Israel and Palestine are currently in. They're both corrupt and hate each other. Israel's government is led by Netanyahu, of whom we only need to look back at his history to see the likelyhood of him shaking hands and making peace with his neighbours are slim. Palestine meanwhile is under the hands of Hamas, a militant terrorist organisation who would rather wipe Israel off the face of the Earth.
And so the fighting continues, a neverending war of control. Israel's politics is so fixated in survival now that the chance for peace is always a slim one. They are a country constantly under threat from all sides and as such they have trench warfare psychology. The Palestinians meanwhile have no hope as they're continually being bombarded and driven out, and the more that occurs the more likely they will attempt to retaliate in kind.
Truth is the best way to solve it is to let them get on blowing each other up. If we shove our noses in it we'll just get a bloody one.
Palestine is not in the hands of Hamas, only the Gaza strip is. The West Bank is controlled by Fatah. Hamas only had the power to remove Fatah from the Gaza strip (literally killing/arresting all of their leaders in the strip) due to Israel's original support and funding of Hamas for the purpose of weakening the Palestinian Authority when Arafat was successfully concentrating Palestinian power peacefully and attempting to create a sovereign police force that could respond to terrorist attacks from with the West Bank without the need for Israeli intervention.
Also saying that they are 'as bad as each other' is a false equivalency. One side holds all the cards, nuclear weapons, airspace, water rights, trade rights, land rights, UN membership, functioning first world economy, health and education systems, a large and extremely well trained army and intelligence systems, as well as billions in military aid from the US. Palestinians literally have none of that, they don't even have citizenship of an actual country.
Personally, I think they're only as bad as each other if they're on equal terms. But they're not. Israel have far superior weapons and, I assume, better education than the Palestinians. It's the equivalent of an 18 year old beating the crap out of a 10 year old.
if the 10 year old keeps throwing stones at the 18 year old (even if he missed half of them beacose he sucks) the 18 is perfecly in his right to beat the living shit out of the 10 year old until he stops throwing those rocks
It doesn't give him the right to beat up every ten year old in the area.
The fact of the matter is that Palestinian refugees left when the wars were going on, and had their property seized by the Israeli government because those people didn't want to hold out in a war zone. If you're OK with a government taking property wholesale from an entire ethnic population and redistributing it, I think, philosophically, there is very little common ground that can be found. It's not like this was ancient history as well. Many Palestinians still hold the deeds to their property that was taken from them.
Personally, that's my favorite argument because conservatives tend to support Israel the most, but intense government redistribution of property rivals that position in importance as well.
Hell, I don't even think the refugees are the main issue in this anymore - they are stealing land from people right now, at this ongoing moment. And there are still over 4 million Palestinians living in the area moment who have no representation in the government that rules over them in every imaginable way. That's the most pressing concern right now in my opinion.
A lot of those refugees' homes are now probably held by people who had no hand in the actual taking - it sucks and is unfair but I don't think you can force some family living in Sderot for example to give up their property because some guy was an asshole and stole it away 60 years ago. Because that would just make this whole issue even more convulted.
So what would you like to do then? Level the playing field? That will only result in Israel increasing its war effort and removing Palestine at a quicker rate. Sanctions? Hurts ALL the people, not the governments. Military help for Palestine? Would be deemed an act of war and is highly unlikely to happen due to the complex relations Israel has with other countries.
So what would you like to do then? Level the playing field? That will only result in Israel increasing its war effort and removing Palestine at a quicker rate. Sanctions? Hurts ALL the people, not the governments. Military help for Palestine? Would be deemed an act of war and is highly unlikely to happen due to the complex relations Israel has with other countries.
Idealized: Crack down on both the corrupt Israeli leadership and the djihadists. There are moderates among both governments who'd be willing to sign a ceasefire and actually stick to it. Likewise, do something about the ultra-orthodox religious types on both sides who do nothing but justify the killing.
Help both peoples form some sort of stable trade relations with each other. Economic stability will lead to social stability. The arab populace will at least have a few things less to angry about. If they have to rely on each other they will most likely think twice about fucking up, too.
I'm afraid without some reeducation on both sides, every attempt at peace will be futile.
Ferrus on
I would like to pause for a moment, to talk about my penis.
My penis is like a toddler. A toddler—who is a perfectly normal size for his age—on a long road trip to what he thinks is Disney World. My penis is excited because he hasn’t been to Disney World in a long, long time, but remembers a time when he used to go every day. So now the penis toddler is constantly fidgeting, whining “Are we there yet? Are we there yet? How about now? Now? How about... now?”
And Disney World is nowhere in sight.
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In the immortal words of the Zohan,
"No, you're right. My people haven't had any claim to these lands thousands of years, too. My bad."
Wait, so you are saying Israel is just like European Settlers?
Are these REALLY the people you want to be comparing yourself too?
That said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UO6YlkYNJQ
Switch: US 1651-2551-4335 JP 6310-4664-2624
MH3U Monster Cheat Sheet / MH3U Veggie Elder Ticket Guide
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UO6YlkYNJQ
Switch: US 1651-2551-4335 JP 6310-4664-2624
MH3U Monster Cheat Sheet / MH3U Veggie Elder Ticket Guide
You realize that when Western Europe and the U.S. decided to dump all the Jews in the Middle East (and if you felt so bad for them, why couldn't they just stay with you?) people were already living there, right?
What? I'm saying, pretty clearly I thought, that 'lived here thousands of years ago' isn't a valid reason for invading an area and kicking it's population out.
IE: can the descendants of the Lakota tribe come kick out everyone from their 'ancestral lands' by force of arms because those were their ancestral lands?
Ah, ok.
Your making this point when in every other tread your complaining about Mexican immigrants making use of Texan resources, wearing Hecho en mexico t-shirts and only speaking Spanish?
Have you thought about who has a comparable claim to the land your living on right now?
Well, if the UN creates and recognizes a state for them, backed by the political will and support of the entire Western civilization, I suppose they probably could.
Or do you want to speak in realities? The reality is that the state of Israel isn't going away. Every mainstream anti-Israeli ideology refuses to acknowledge this, and therefore the dialogue is doomed.
The leading political and financial supporters of the Palestinian state are such distinguished luminaries as Iran, Syria, and Lebanon, all nations who have gone on record as denying the Holocaust, funding terrorist acts against civilians, and denying even the most basic human freedoms to their own citizens.
So it may be a case of at-large Ad Hominem, but I seriously doubt it. I see no reason to extend special courtesy in this matter to murdering, inhuman, racist fundamentalists just because a legally recognized state has some questionable methods of defending its sovereignty. But I tell you what: as soon as nations with instated Sharia law give up that bullshit and stop killing their own citizens for crimes like "speaking outside your house" or "being female in public," I'll lend an ear to their plight.
I think the advent of random missile strikes and suicide bombings changes the context of that comparison, wouldn't you think?
But enough about Israel, what do you think about the Boycott campaign?
The discounting of the legitimate Palestinian movement is unfortunate, and I do wish their political heft meant more. But I can't hardly blame Israel for actions they've taken in the face of determined genocide.
I mean, I hate to pull Godwin out, but an Israel-friendly Palestinian liberation movement probably has as much political relevance as a Jew-friendly pro-Nazi movement.
Ahhhh....hmm....errr....aaaa....no?
hint: It ain't the Israelis that are the victims of genocide here
I think what you meant to say was 'yeah Ego, you were right and I was wrong, the thousands-years-claims-FORTHECHILDREN argument is really stupid.'
. . . so it's the Holocaust-denying zealots striving to "wipe Israel off the planet?"
And "genocide" is a pretty broad term in its context here. The term is usually reserved for specific ethnic or religious groups. Israelis aren't fighting Islam or Arab-Persians, they're fighting the people they share a border with. You engage in combat with your antagonist: Did the British commit genocide against Americans in the Revolution? Did the Allies commit genocide against the Axis powers? If Israel really wanted to commit genocide against exclusively Palestine, it wouldn't be too much work; It would be like the US declaring war on Haiti.
Israel is systematically killing the Arab populations of Israel and Palestine? That's news to me.
The current nomenclature seems to be driven by the same logic as accusations of Obama being a Commusocialist: the people using them don't know what they mean besides that they dislike them as much as their target. Apartheid is the forced resettlement of an ethnic minority, not unlike historical American policies towards native americans, and genocide is the intentional destruction of an ethnic group. Given that Israel has a large Arab population that it is currently not taking any actions against, Israeli policies have no way of being any more genocide than if we finally decided to get rid of the south once and for all.
What Israel is doing is an occupation and blockade of a hostile power. Not ethical warfare, but also not ethnic cleansing in any form. It is mainly continued because, while both sides want an end, neither side can agree to terms under which it would be official, kind of like how one US territory has a majority of citizens who want to be independent OR a state, but can't get enough people to back one solution, except with more shooting.
Genocide? No. Ethnic cleansing? Yes. Palestinians are forced off their land. Jewish settlers move in to take it over. The goal is to remove on ethnicity from an area and replace it with another. That is ethnic cleansing.
Personally, I'd call putting a guy who wants to do exactly that in charge of your foreign policy and one step away from the presidency "taking actions against their large Arab populace."
But maybe that's just me.
I think a lot of anyones perspective on this issue revolves around how they define the conflict. I see the Palestinians, as a state at war with Israel. They had their own UN mandated state, used it to launch a bunch of wars against Israel, and are now basically underground resistance fighters in an occupied territory(except for all the civilian targeting, but no analogy is perfect). This means that Israeli actions can only be judged against a 'rules of war' standards; which frown very hard on non-uniformed combatants, intentionally targeting civilians, hostage taking, POW abuse/execution, and not so hard on collateral damage casualties.
The problem with having this perspective is that it is built on lies. The historical record shows that Zionist terrorist groups were engaged in acts of terror and ethnic cleansing during the 1947-1948 period - something that the state of Israel tries very hard to cover up because acknowledging it would mean having to accept that they were not victims, but active participants - and all of their arguments for their positions since would be revealed to be lies.
You're welcome to your own opinions, but not your own facts. And the facts show that your definition of the conflict is a false one.
That's great, equate millions of uneducated, poverty-stricken people with their leadership. Seriously, what is it with you and believing that Muslims are all the same?
Last month, more people died in my country in car accidents then Israelis have been killed by rocket attacks during their entire existence. I'm not even going to talk about stuff like targeted murders in U.S. cities and the like. If that's "determined genocide", then I suppose UN should be sending troops to Detroit right now.
Anyone who thinks that the rocket attacks are half as horrible as the systematic opression Palestinians experience every day is retarded.
You do realise that Israel funded Hamas in order to destabilise the PLO and make it more difficult for them to maintain security in the areas that they were supposed to control, thus making it far easier to justify further subversion of palestinian sovereignty.
Of which A might be applicable, I don't know how many deaths are required to make it count. B definitely applies I'd say. And C definitely applies.
Genocide is a tricky term because it can be interpreted pretty much like you want to after these requirements, it looks to me like it does apply though. So yes, genocide indeed.
Things are not going to magically change and it becomes far to easy to blame an entire country for a small minorities fault. No, not all Palestinians are terrorists or freedom fighters or whatever. Alot of them just want to get on with there lives. Not all Israeli's are zionist and alot of them agree that peace talks are right and settlements into illegal areas are wrong.
The problems lies in the Governments both Israel and Palestine are currently in. They're both corrupt and hate each other. Israel's government is led by Netanyahu, of whom we only need to look back at his history to see the likelyhood of him shaking hands and making peace with his neighbours are slim. Palestine meanwhile is under the hands of Hamas, a militant terrorist organisation who would rather wipe Israel off the face of the Earth.
And so the fighting continues, a neverending war of control. Israel's politics is so fixated in survival now that the chance for peace is always a slim one. They are a country constantly under threat from all sides and as such they have trench warfare psychology. The Palestinians meanwhile have no hope as they're continually being bombarded and driven out, and the more that occurs the more likely they will attempt to retaliate in kind.
Truth is the best way to solve it is to let them get on blowing each other up. If we shove our noses in it we'll just get a bloody one.
West Bank is in control of Fatah, an non-violent organization (at the moment) and we are seeing more and more settlers enroaching on territory there.
Just another way to show that the only option Israel has left Palestinians is violence.
Except that Israel's army is literally a million times more powerful then Hamas, and we know where this course will eventually end. Sure, Hamas would be dead, but that could not be achieved without tens of thousands or maybe hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties. And those casualties would provide more pissed off Palestinians who in turn would form a new terrorist group, and it would go on an on until there would not be any more Palestinians left.
Personally, I think they're only as bad as each other if they're on equal terms. But they're not. Israel have far superior weapons and, I assume, better education than the Palestinians. It's the equivalent of an 18 year old beating the crap out of a 10 year old.
And Israel really does it's best to fuck with Palastinian infrastructure any way it can. Like holding palastinian grown flowers for "security reasons" until they are unsellable. It's pure dickery.
You would actually beat the living shit out of a child throwing rocks at you? Wow.
You wouldn't shoot them though, so I guess that makes you better then IDF.
Palestine is not in the hands of Hamas, only the Gaza strip is. The West Bank is controlled by Fatah. Hamas only had the power to remove Fatah from the Gaza strip (literally killing/arresting all of their leaders in the strip) due to Israel's original support and funding of Hamas for the purpose of weakening the Palestinian Authority when Arafat was successfully concentrating Palestinian power peacefully and attempting to create a sovereign police force that could respond to terrorist attacks from with the West Bank without the need for Israeli intervention.
Also saying that they are 'as bad as each other' is a false equivalency. One side holds all the cards, nuclear weapons, airspace, water rights, trade rights, land rights, UN membership, functioning first world economy, health and education systems, a large and extremely well trained army and intelligence systems, as well as billions in military aid from the US. Palestinians literally have none of that, they don't even have citizenship of an actual country.
It doesn't give him the right to beat up every ten year old in the area.
Personally, that's my favorite argument because conservatives tend to support Israel the most, but intense government redistribution of property rivals that position in importance as well.
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A lot of those refugees' homes are now probably held by people who had no hand in the actual taking - it sucks and is unfair but I don't think you can force some family living in Sderot for example to give up their property because some guy was an asshole and stole it away 60 years ago. Because that would just make this whole issue even more convulted.
Idealized: Crack down on both the corrupt Israeli leadership and the djihadists. There are moderates among both governments who'd be willing to sign a ceasefire and actually stick to it. Likewise, do something about the ultra-orthodox religious types on both sides who do nothing but justify the killing.
Help both peoples form some sort of stable trade relations with each other. Economic stability will lead to social stability. The arab populace will at least have a few things less to angry about. If they have to rely on each other they will most likely think twice about fucking up, too.
I'm afraid without some reeducation on both sides, every attempt at peace will be futile.
And Disney World is nowhere in sight.