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[DnD 4E Discussion] ITT we all get behind gnomes.

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Posts

  • Jack HobbesJack Hobbes Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    What has two thumbs and a copy of the Player's Handbook 3?

    This guy, that's who.

    Psionic rules look decent, barring the problem of just spamming lower-level at-wills over and over and over again.

    Battlemind is a mess, with no clear theme and a mishmash of powers.

    Thrown weapon Seeker is much, much cooler than the one previewed.

    Runepriest is pretty awesome, and does not supplant the Strength Cleric at all. Basically they can switch between Bard mode and Warlord mode each round providing either defensive or offensive buffs. That said, they can't heal for toffe.

    Hybrid character rules are awesome.

    I don't have a problem with any of the races, as the book specifically tells you "These races are not common". A shardmind or wilden wandering through town is rare, and is certain to attract a few choice stares, but it isn't unheard of.

    Next character will almost certainly be a Shardmind Hybrid Wizard / Paladin.

    Jack Hobbes on
  • MikeMcSomethingMikeMcSomething Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    And the best way to fix psionics would be to toss the dumbass augment system for powers altogether - give psionic classes normal powers, and make the whole power point/augment thing part of their class mechanics - maybe for example the psionic striker damage dice costs 1PP per D6 and you only get 4 PP's, so you can front-load better but would exhaust your mental resources faster than say the rogue or warlock once round 5 rolled around.

    MikeMcSomething on
  • Jack HobbesJack Hobbes Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    I disagree. Part of the draw of psionics is that it's always something that doesn't work the way anything else does. Psionics were introduced in the same book as Mind Flayers, so to me they've always had the draw of something alien and weird; something that doesn't conform to the norm of the universe.

    The Power Point system works fine in theory, and (were it balanced) gives characters that use it a much larger array of tactical options and introduces a new layer of resource management. The trouble is that it isn't balanced, and it suffers for it; an optimized Psion actually has less options at his disposal than an optimized Wizard.

    It's sort of like the Ranger problem; they have a bunch of balanced, flavorful and unique options available to them, and then they have one that just blows them all out of the water. A class with an at-will that borders being too good works for non-psionic classes, and it totally breaks psionic ones. And at-wills are a lot harder to balance and design than encounters or dailies are.

    Jack Hobbes on
  • ShoggothShoggoth Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    I think it's funny that psionics kept their weird alternate system but they made absolutely no attempt to preserve any of the vancian system (not a bad thing).

    EDIT: FOR MAGIC USERS PEOPLE, FOR MAGIC USERS.

    Shoggoth on
    11tu0w1.jpg
  • Jack HobbesJack Hobbes Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Psionics was never Vancian, as far as I know. I didn't play them in 2e, but I understand that they were clunky, awkward, unbalancing, and completely threw off group dynamics.

    Jack Hobbes on
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Shoggoth wrote: »
    I think it's funny that psionics kept their weird alternate system but they made absolutely no attempt to preserve any of the vancian system (not a bad thing).

    You mean dailies?

    Incenjucar on
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Yeah, Psionics haven't ever really been vancian.

    In fact, their earlier incarnations were sort of like 4E mechanics; based directly on attributes, usable a variable number of times per day that generally broke down into "once per fight" or "once per day".

    3E was the closest they ever came to being vancian, and even then all the Wizard fanboys thought they were demonspawn.

    OptimusZed on
    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
  • ShoggothShoggoth Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    I mean that psionics kept power points but wizards didn't keep the whole memorizing spells and sorcerers didn't keep a pool of spells mechanic etc. All the magic users were folded into the same system as martial and primal characters.

    I assume psionics had power points in previous editions, right?

    Shoggoth on
    11tu0w1.jpg
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Shoggoth wrote: »
    I assume psionics had power points in previous editions, right?
    Not before 3rd.

    OptimusZed on
    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
  • ShoggothShoggoth Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Shoggoth wrote: »
    I assume psionics had power points in previous editions, right?
    Not before 3rd.

    Right but they had it in the last edition, I'm not crazy and made that part up.

    Shoggoth on
    11tu0w1.jpg
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Shoggoth wrote: »
    I assume psionics had power points in previous editions, right?
    Not before 3rd.

    Um. PSPs.

    Incenjucar on
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Shoggoth wrote: »
    I assume psionics had power points in previous editions, right?
    Not before 3rd.

    Um. PSPs.
    Yeah, but those were... different. And they had a base number of things they could do before they started using them and.... yeah.

    I suppose they were basically the same thing. I just don't remember thinking of them the same way.

    OptimusZed on
    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
  • poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    So now I can dislike psionics both thematically and mechanically!

    The biggest shame is that instead of having a fairly coherent system that you don't have to houserule massively to make fun, now I have to check any players I have are OK with not having psionics.

    poshniallo on
    I figure I could take a bear.
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Well, come release I AM playing Dark Sun. This pretty much requires that Psionics work for me.

    So I'll likely be putting in not a small amount of time figuring out how to do that.

    OptimusZed on
    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
  • Jack HobbesJack Hobbes Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    When you swap out your powers, you must swap out your lowest level power. If two or more powers are tied for the lowest level, you may choose which one you swap out.

    Problem solved.

    Jack Hobbes on
  • poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Well, come release I AM playing Dark Sun. This pretty much requires that Psionics work for me.

    So I'll likely be putting in not a small amount of time figuring out how to do that.

    That's a good point. Dark Sun sounds great.

    poshniallo on
    I figure I could take a bear.
  • AegeriAegeri Tiny wee bacteriums Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Well, come release I AM playing Dark Sun. This pretty much requires that Psionics work for me.

    So I'll likely be putting in not a small amount of time figuring out how to do that.

    Both of the solutions that "work" are easy.

    A) You cannot use the same augment more than twice in a row (this doesn't prevent some spamming, but not always).

    B) You cannot use the same augment more than once per encounter (which absolutely solves it).

    Either or works.

    Edit: Dark Sun sounds absolutely amazing.

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    It was incredible in its 2E incarnation.

    I have extremely high hopes.

    OptimusZed on
    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
  • SkyCaptainSkyCaptain IndianaRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    poshniallo wrote: »
    So now I can dislike psionics both thematically and mechanically!

    The biggest shame is that instead of having a fairly coherent system that you don't have to houserule massively to make fun, now I have to check any players I have are OK with not having psionics.

    Why check? If you're running the game and you don't like psionics, make sure they know before they agree to play that you won't be allowing anything psionic.

    SkyCaptain on
    The RPG Bestiary - Dangerous foes and legendary monsters for D&D 4th Edition
  • Jack HobbesJack Hobbes Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Another problem with Power Point Classes: Higher-level unaugmented powers should do more damage. Everyone's at-wills upgrade at level 20, but the basic unaugmented versions of powers above level 20 don't increase in damage. If Power Points = Encounter Powers, then at Epic the Power Point classes will be seriously lacking in DPR.

    Jack Hobbes on
  • AegeriAegeri Tiny wee bacteriums Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Another problem with Power Point Classes: Higher-level unaugmented powers should do more damage. Everyone's at-wills upgrade at level 20, but the basic unaugmented versions of powers above level 20 don't increase in damage. If Power Points = Encounter Powers, then at Epic the Power Point classes will be seriously lacking in DPR.

    Actually they will only be a few points worse, this is because by epic your dice matter little compared to your static mods. 2d6 + 4 in heroic is huge, but by epic 2d6 +30, that 2d6 isn't contributing much.

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
  • hippofanthippofant ティンク Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    hippofant wrote: »
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    hippofant wrote: »
    Oh god, why are superior implements so disappointing?
    The impression I got (from listening to other people) was that superior implements are slightly confusing, but they're kind of like superior weapons; not really that impressive to spend a feat on unless you're going to be making other build choices around them.
    Accurate: You gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls made with an accurate implement.

    Deadly: You gain a +1 bonus to damage rolls made with a deadly implement. The bonus increases to +2 at 11th level and +3 at 21st level.

    Distant: The range of your area and ranged attack powers increases by 2 when they're used through a distant implement.

    Empowered Crit: When you score a critical hit with an empowered crit implement. the attack deals
    1d10 extra damage. The extra damage increases to 2d10 at 11th level and 3d10 al 21st 1evel.

    Energized: When you use an attack power through an energized implement. you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls if the power has the keyword that matches the implement's damage type.
    The bonus increases to +3 at 11th level and +4 at 21 level.

    Forceful: Whenever you pull, push, or slide a target with an attack power using a forceful implement, the distance of the forced movement increases by 1 square.

    Shielding: Whenever you hit at least one target with an attack power using a shielding implement, you gain a +1 shield bonus to AC and Reflex until the start of your next turn.

    Undeniable: +1 to hit Will

    Unerring: +1 to hit Reflex

    Unstoppable: +1 to hit Fort
    Holy symbols
    Accurate symbol: Accurate
    Astral symbol: Distant, energized (Radiant)
    Warding symbol: Shielding, unstoppable
    Wrathful symbol: Empowered crit, undeniable

    Orbs
    Accurate Orb: Accurate (duh)
    Crystal: Energized (psychic) [psions use orbs, by the way], undeniable
    Greenstone: Energized (acid), unstoppable
    Petrified: Energized (force), forceful

    Rods
    Accurate
    Ashen: Energized (fire), unerring
    Deathbone: Energized (necrotic), undeniable'
    Defiant: Energized (Radiant), shielding

    Staffs
    Accurate (broken record here)
    Guardian: Energized (force), shielding
    Mindwarp: Distant, energized (psychic) [psions can also use staffs]
    Quickbeam: Energized (Thunder), forceful

    Tomes
    Echo: Distant, unerring
    Forbidden: Deadly, unstoppable
    Unspeakable: Empowered crit, undeniable

    Totems
    Accurate
    Farseeing: deadly, distant
    Icicle: empowered crit, energized (cold)
    Storm: Energized (thunder), unstoppable

    Wands
    Accurate
    Cinder: empowered crit, energized (fire)
    Dragontooth: Deadly, unerring
    Rowan: distant, energized (lightning)

    And superior implement daggers were in the last CA sorcerer article. Soooo disappointing. None of the implement users in my playgroup would take anything but the accurate, for a... +1 bonus to hit. Whoopee.
    That doesn't seem that bad at all. Think about what you get when you take a superior weapon proficiency; a minor damage or attack boost, and maybe a secondary effect like Brutal. I'm seeing a lot of that here.

    Yes, but Brutal 2 helps everybody who uses an Execution Axe. Admittedly, it may help some more than others, in so far as people with bigger [W] powers will benefit more, but you know.... Now the accurate and comparable admittedly, but all the others blow. Deadly is equivalent to a +d2 bonus (ie. longsword to bastard sword) on a 1[W] power, Empowered Critical is just equivalent to high crit. And then all the typed bonuses, and the limited combinations thereof - for example, the deadly property on Dragontooth wand might be attractive to someone, only for the unerring to be totally useless.

    I think it's highly unlikely that anybody will take any of these superior implements other than the Accurate ones, particularly because Staff of Ruin ruins the Energized option for many of these. Which I just find very disappointing given the possible cool factor that could have been the Superior Implements feature.


    Also keep in mind that many people find Superior Weapons a fairly boring feature as well.

    hippofant on
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Superior Weapon Proficiency is really only useful for most people after they've exhausted other avenues of self-improvement. Broadsword vs Bastard Sword, Long Spear vs Great Spear, Craghammer vs Warhammer, etc. The improvements in those cases are generally less than what is gained from taking a different feat, up until you're out of other feats to take.

    To be perfectly honest, I find a the superior implements to be a lot more compelling than the superior weapons, if only because they do push you toward a certain style. With the weapons, it's a matter of "this is the best hammer, I have an extra feat, I'll spend it on that" whereas with the implements it's nowhere near that clearcut. There is a lot of give an take here, especially when you look at things that you can get this way that stack with other sources.

    OptimusZed on
    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
  • Jack HobbesJack Hobbes Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Superior Weapons are generally good for about +1 damage per [W]. As for feats, Superior Weapon Profiency is strictly better than Weapon Focus, as SWP enhances crits and it gets better as the X goes up in various X[W] powers. When I play a Melee character, it's generally one of the first feats I pick up.

    Superior Implement Proficiency looks to be very niche. Illusionists will appreciate the Crystal Orb, Infernalocks will like the Ashen Rod, Laser Clerics will go giddy for the Astral Symbol, etc. I'm sure that some people will try to build their characters around their Implement, which is kinda cool. 90% of the time, though, I think you're going to find that people will just take the Accurate implement for the +1 bonus to hit and be done with it.

    Jack Hobbes on
  • TerrendosTerrendos Decorative Monocle Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Superior Weapon Proficiency is really only useful for most people after they've exhausted other avenues of self-improvement. Broadsword vs Bastard Sword, Long Spear vs Great Spear, Craghammer vs Warhammer, etc. The improvements in those cases are generally less than what is gained from taking a different feat, up until you're out of other feats to take.

    To be perfectly honest, I find a the superior implements to be a lot more compelling than the superior weapons, if only because they do push you toward a certain style. With the weapons, it's a matter of "this is the best hammer, I have an extra feat, I'll spend it on that" whereas with the implements it's nowhere near that clearcut. There is a lot of give an take here, especially when you look at things that you can get this way that stack with other sources.

    On the other hand, for classes like Cleric who only get Simple proficiency, taking a Superior Weapon Proficiency is a no-brainer. 1d8 with a +2 proficiency versus 1d10 with a +3... not exactly a tough call.

    Terrendos on
  • hippofanthippofant ティンク Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    So uh... can anybody tell me about Unther, beyond that which is in the FRWiki? The people in my FR campaign have decided to traipse on over to Unther, which I know nothing about.

    In particular, one of the party members has decided that some ancestors of his were nobility in Unther at the time of the Spellplague and he wants to go back to Messepmtar to find what he can find. I'd love some background information with which I can flesh the place out a bit. (I don't have previous FRCGs or anything :()



    Edit: Also, while I'm here, any ideas for what a level 12 Deva Invoker (in a party with Rogue, Fighter, Shaman) should use as a shield? I'd take Flameward, but I and another party member already have fire resist. Basically just looking at Shield of Deflection, due to a limited number of daily item powers atm (I currently have four such items) but any suggestions would be nice... other than Floating Shield, which I plan to pick up anyways.

    hippofant on
  • PinfeldorfPinfeldorf Yeah ZestRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    hippofant wrote: »

    Edit: Also, while I'm here, any ideas for what a level 12 Deva Invoker (in a party with Rogue, Fighter, Shaman) should use as a shield? I'd take Flameward, but I and another party member already have fire resist. Basically just looking at Shield of Deflection, due to a limited number of daily item powers atm (I currently have four such items) but any suggestions would be nice... other than Floating Shield, which I plan to pick up anyways.

    Completely off topic, but how does the Shaman play out? Looking at them on paper, they sound bad, but I'd be interested in some insight from a person with experience.

    Pinfeldorf on
  • hippofanthippofant ティンク Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Pinfeldorf wrote: »
    hippofant wrote: »

    Edit: Also, while I'm here, any ideas for what a level 12 Deva Invoker (in a party with Rogue, Fighter, Shaman) should use as a shield? I'd take Flameward, but I and another party member already have fire resist. Basically just looking at Shield of Deflection, due to a limited number of daily item powers atm (I currently have four such items) but any suggestions would be nice... other than Floating Shield, which I plan to pick up anyways.

    Completely off topic, but how does the Shaman play out? Looking at them on paper, they sound bad, but I'd be interested in some insight from a person with experience.

    Heals galore. Depending on wording, because Healing Spirits heals two players, you get double the bang out of +heal items, feats, and such. There is no lack of healing coming out of our Shaman. A lot of coordination is needed to make the most of the Shaman's leader powers though - moving players in the right order, keeping enemies/allies next to the spirit and such. In general, Shaman leader boosts/penalties are much finickier than that of the other leaders and doesn't seem to be any more powerful. Their at-wills are rather weak, imo, their encounters are subpar, their dailies are solid but not tide-turning in the same way that Clerics or Warlords are, but their utilities are actually surprisingly good.

    But mostly, we just run our Shaman as primarily a healer and then with some melee attack booster. Between my damage-geared Invoker, the fullblade-wielding Fighter, and the Rogue, we don't really need buffs or debuffs so much as just someone to keep us going and chip in during those odd situations, which the Shaman does fairly well with its varied, but finicky, powers. The companion can help in that respect, clogging things up and such, and sometimes eating attacks when we can convince our DM to attack it.

    Here's our Shaman, but it's not very optimized and is likely even out of date. Things I'd change: Watcher's Strike to Claws of the Eagle, Sly Fox Spirit to Blood-Red Mist, Twin Panthers to Certain Threat (but our Rogue is paranoid about ever being caught without CA), and then Resilient Spirit - because the Spirit doesn't get attacked much and even then it's usually no biggie. Guardian Spirit's all right, because I have Harbinger of Rebirth means we can get a +7 to death saving throws for rising while dead fun, but I'm not sure it's even close to optimal given how often we die (not) and the fact that the spirit has to stay still in the meantime.
    ====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
    Bill Guerin, level 11
    Elf, Shaman, Scarred Healer
    Build: Bear Shaman
    Companion Spirit: Protector Spirit
    Background: Elf - Fey Ally, Geography - Forest, Bereaved, Seer (+2 to Perception)

    FINAL ABILITY SCORES
    Str 14, Con 19, Dex 14, Int 11, Wis 21, Cha 9.

    STARTING ABILITY SCORES
    Str 13, Con 16, Dex 11, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8.


    AC: 25 Fort: 22 Reflex: 20 Will: 23
    HP: 81 Surges: 11 Surge Value: 20

    TRAINED SKILLS
    Nature +17, Perception +21, Insight +15, Heal +15

    UNTRAINED SKILLS
    Acrobatics +6, Arcana +5, Bluff +4, Diplomacy +4, Dungeoneering +10, Endurance +8, History +5, Intimidate +4, Religion +5, Stealth +6, Streetwise +4, Thievery +6, Athletics +6

    FEATS
    Level 1: Armor Proficiency (Chainmail)
    Level 2: Resilient Spirit
    Level 4: Protector Spirit Adept
    Level 6: Vigorous Spirit
    Level 8: Rejuvenating Spirit
    Feat User Choice: Elven Precision
    Feat User Choice: Focused Expertise (Spear)
    Level 10: Strengthening Spirit
    Level 11: Guardian Spirit

    POWERS
    Shaman at-will 1: Watcher's Strike
    Shaman encounter 1: Twin Panthers
    Shaman daily 1: Cleansing Wind of the North
    Shaman utility 2: Bonds of the Clan
    Shaman encounter 3: Call to the Savage Elder
    Shaman daily 5: War Chieftain's Blessing
    Shaman utility 6: Sudden Restoration
    Shaman encounter 7: Sly Fox Spirit
    Shaman daily 9: Ancient Warlord's Inspiration
    Shaman utility 10: Primal Gust

    ITEMS
    Adventurer's Kit, Spear, Healer's Brooch +1, Hungry Spirits Totem +1, Healer's Finemail +2, Healer's Brooch +2, Totemic Spear Spear +3, Gloves of the Healer (paragon tier), Rhythm Blade Dagger +1, Cannith Goggles (heroic tier), Belt of Sacrifice (heroic tier)
    ====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======


    ETA: Mikan, in the Something Awful 4E discussion threads, has plenty to say about Shamans, being a crazy Shaman lover. I skim them for information sometimes, but pretty much once a thread, he'll write a treatise about Shamans being awesome. Ours is a shared 4th character amongst 3 players and I think it plays well in that role. I'm pretty sure though that I wouldn't want to play a Shaman, because I just don't feel it's very exciting.

    hippofant on
  • PinfeldorfPinfeldorf Yeah ZestRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    hippofant wrote: »
    Heals galore. Depending on wording, because Healing Spirits heals two players, you get double the bang out of +heal items, feats, and such. There is no lack of healing coming out of our Shaman. A lot of coordination is needed to make the most of the Shaman's leader powers though - moving players in the right order, keeping enemies/allies next to the spirit and such. In general, Shaman leader boosts/penalties are much finickier than that of the other leaders and doesn't seem to be any more powerful. Their at-wills are rather weak, imo, their encounters are subpar, their dailies are solid but not tide-turning in the same way that Clerics or Warlords are, but their utilities are actually surprisingly good.

    But mostly, we just run our Shaman as primarily a healer and then with some melee attack booster. Between my damage-geared Invoker, the fullblade-wielding Fighter, and the Rogue, we don't really need buffs or debuffs so much as just someone to keep us going and chip in during those odd situations, which the Shaman does fairly well with its varied, but finicky, powers. The companion can help in that respect, clogging things up and such, and sometimes eating attacks when we can convince our DM to attack it.

    Here's our Shaman, but it's not very optimized and is likely even out of date. Things I'd change: Watcher's Strike to Claws of the Eagle, Sly Fox Spirit to Blood-Red Mist, Twin Panthers to Certain Threat (but our Rogue is paranoid about ever being caught without CA), and then Resilient Spirit - because the Spirit doesn't get attacked much and even then it's usually no biggie. Guardian Spirit's all right, because I have Harbinger of Rebirth means we can get a +7 to death saving throws for rising while dead fun, but I'm not sure it's even close to optimal given how often we die (not) and the fact that the spirit has to stay still in the meantime.
    ====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
    Bill Guerin, level 11
    Elf, Shaman, Scarred Healer
    Build: Bear Shaman
    Companion Spirit: Protector Spirit
    Background: Elf - Fey Ally, Geography - Forest, Bereaved, Seer (+2 to Perception)

    FINAL ABILITY SCORES
    Str 14, Con 19, Dex 14, Int 11, Wis 21, Cha 9.

    STARTING ABILITY SCORES
    Str 13, Con 16, Dex 11, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8.


    AC: 25 Fort: 22 Reflex: 20 Will: 23
    HP: 81 Surges: 11 Surge Value: 20

    TRAINED SKILLS
    Nature +17, Perception +21, Insight +15, Heal +15

    UNTRAINED SKILLS
    Acrobatics +6, Arcana +5, Bluff +4, Diplomacy +4, Dungeoneering +10, Endurance +8, History +5, Intimidate +4, Religion +5, Stealth +6, Streetwise +4, Thievery +6, Athletics +6

    FEATS
    Level 1: Armor Proficiency (Chainmail)
    Level 2: Resilient Spirit
    Level 4: Protector Spirit Adept
    Level 6: Vigorous Spirit
    Level 8: Rejuvenating Spirit
    Feat User Choice: Elven Precision
    Feat User Choice: Focused Expertise (Spear)
    Level 10: Strengthening Spirit
    Level 11: Guardian Spirit

    POWERS
    Shaman at-will 1: Watcher's Strike
    Shaman encounter 1: Twin Panthers
    Shaman daily 1: Cleansing Wind of the North
    Shaman utility 2: Bonds of the Clan
    Shaman encounter 3: Call to the Savage Elder
    Shaman daily 5: War Chieftain's Blessing
    Shaman utility 6: Sudden Restoration
    Shaman encounter 7: Sly Fox Spirit
    Shaman daily 9: Ancient Warlord's Inspiration
    Shaman utility 10: Primal Gust

    ITEMS
    Adventurer's Kit, Spear, Healer's Brooch +1, Hungry Spirits Totem +1, Healer's Finemail +2, Healer's Brooch +2, Totemic Spear Spear +3, Gloves of the Healer (paragon tier), Rhythm Blade Dagger +1, Cannith Goggles (heroic tier), Belt of Sacrifice (heroic tier)
    ====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======


    ETA: Mikan, in the Something Awful 4E discussion threads, has plenty to say about Shamans, being a crazy Shaman lover. I skim them for information sometimes, but pretty much once a thread, he'll write a treatise about Shamans being awesome. Ours is a shared 4th character amongst 3 players and I think it plays well in that role. I'm pretty sure though that I wouldn't want to play a Shaman, because I just don't feel it's very exciting.

    Interesting, I didn't know their heal could hit two people. Unfortunately, that makes for a rather uninvolved character, which is usually something people don't actively seek to play. Warlords, Artificers and Bards seem to have a far more visceral presence on the battlefield, with somewhat substantial buffs, debuffs and utilities, and I just don't get that vibe from Spirit Shamans.

    Pinfeldorf on
  • MikeMcSomethingMikeMcSomething Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    They're pretty retarded compared to something like a heal-pimped Cleric or the comical power of a Warlord, but this is a game where you don't even need a leader so you're gonna get alot of answers like "Well my shaman is AWESOME! We never lose a battle!" without any real context to apply it to.

    MikeMcSomething on
  • KayKay What we need... Is a little bit of PANIC.Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    My Warlord's power is not comical. :| I resent that remark!

    Kay on
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  • soxboxsoxbox Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Warlords are comical in that as soon as you've got one in the party, everybody feels like a superhero.

    BAM! POW! WALLOP! LEAD-THE-ATTACK'D'D! BAZING!

    soxbox on
  • Jack HobbesJack Hobbes Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Shamans are also very much a control-oriented leader. More or less all of their dailies involve summoning a movable zone that either helps allies or hinders enemies. Nothing as game-breaking as Blade Barrier, but still effective.

    Jack Hobbes on
  • MrBeensMrBeens Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    When you swap out your powers, you must swap out your lowest level power. If two or more powers are tied for the lowest level, you may choose which one you swap out.

    Problem solved.

    That still makes augmentable classes suck, as they lose their "bread and butter" compared to other classes.
    All standard classes have a selection of at wills that they can choose from that let them do the basic thing their class does (clerics have a to hit buff and grant save at wills, wizards have AoE etc) as well as encounter level abilites that they can choose independently of their at will abilities..
    Aumentable classes don't necessarly have the same options with the higher level at wills, and where they do have the option of getting a higher level thing that does the same as a lower level one that means that they don't really have a choice.
    It is boring.

    Lets look at the ardent - they have a level 1 at will that lets an ally make a melee basic attack, very similar to the warlord. At quite a few levels there are other ablities that also let allies make attacks, but if the ardent wants to keep the ability to let an ally make an attack as they level, they are literally forced to choose that power.

    MrBeens on
  • PowerpuppiesPowerpuppies drinking coffee in the mountain cabinRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    MrBeens wrote: »
    When you swap out your powers, you must swap out your lowest level power. If two or more powers are tied for the lowest level, you may choose which one you swap out.

    Problem solved.

    That still makes augmentable classes suck, as they lose their "bread and butter" compared to other classes.
    All standard classes have a selection of at wills that they can choose from that let them do the basic thing their class does (clerics have a to hit buff and grant save at wills, wizards have AoE etc) as well as encounter level abilites that they can choose independently of their at will abilities..
    Aumentable classes don't necessarly have the same options with the higher level at wills, and where they do have the option of getting a higher level thing that does the same as a lower level one that means that they don't really have a choice.
    It is boring.

    Lets look at the ardent - they have a level 1 at will that lets an ally make a melee basic attack, very similar to the warlord. At quite a few levels there are other ablities that also let allies make attacks, but if the ardent wants to keep the ability to let an ally make an attack as they level, they are literally forced to choose that power.

    It may be boring for you, and you can just play another class. The goal here is to remove the horrific brokenness that is the Psion, and apparently the Ardent and the Battlemind? Not sure. In any case, if you're saying "these classes are terribly broken and one of my player really wants to play one of them, how can I fix them?" and somebody responds "force them to swap out their lowest level at wills," "I think that's boring" isn't really a response germane to the discussion. You may find it boring, but the player who wants to play a psionic class so badly probably doesn't agree.

    Powerpuppies on
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  • IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Classes are generally balanced with the assumption that players will almost always have maximum-level abilities. When lower-level abilities are better than higher-level abilities, it usually means that WotC has fucked up somewhere.

    The Forced-Upgrade method of dealing with psions means that you don't have to outright ban it from your game or introduce quirky houserules. It's as win as things get until WotC steps up to the plate.

    Incenjucar on
  • hippofanthippofant ティンク Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Shamans are also very much a control-oriented leader. More or less all of their dailies involve summoning a movable zone that either helps allies or hinders enemies. Nothing as game-breaking as Blade Barrier, but still effective.

    Not ours actually, but I might be able to explain that. We had a four person group playing two campaigns, to share the DM load. In campaign 1, C played a Shaman and D played a Rogue. In campaign 2, C played a Ranger and D played a hybrid Cleric/Warlord. When C dropped out, D took over the Shaman and so I think it's actually built similarly, because that's the play style he prefers/was into at the time. So he went mad buff powers, rather than the zones and conjurations, so he's "not playing a Shaman correctly".

    Also, as somebody's second character, no matter who's running him, it might be a good thing that the Shaman is more fire-and-forget. I have enough trouble with my Invoker zones/conjurations/summons and making 3+ attack rolls per round.

    hippofant on
  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    I had an idea for a Paragon Path yesterday, but I want to make sure that there isn't already one available with a similar concept.

    Basically, my idea was a Paragon Path for fighters who like to wear the bones of their enemies. The spirits of the fighter's vanquished foes cling to their remains and can be bullied into helping their killer. For example, they can be prompted to flood the minds of the fighter's foes with the sensations they felt when he killed them.

    Hexmage-PA on
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    I had an idea for a Paragon Path yesterday, but I want to make sure that there isn't already one available with a similar concept.

    Basically, my idea was a Paragon Path for fighters who like to wear the bones of their enemies. The spirits of the fighter's vanquished foes cling to their remains and can be bullied into helping their killer. For example, they can be prompted to flood the minds of the fighter's foes with the sensations they felt when he killed them.

    Sounds like a Barbarian Paragon Path.

    Incenjucar on
  • PinfeldorfPinfeldorf Yeah ZestRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    I had an idea for a Paragon Path yesterday, but I want to make sure that there isn't already one available with a similar concept.

    Basically, my idea was a Paragon Path for fighters who like to wear the bones of their enemies. The spirits of the fighter's vanquished foes cling to their remains and can be bullied into helping their killer. For example, they can be prompted to flood the minds of the fighter's foes with the sensations they felt when he killed them.

    Sounds like a Barbarian Paragon Path.

    Fearbringer Thane is kinda like that already, isn't it? They have a PP that sounds similar to that, at least.

    Pinfeldorf on
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