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[DnD 4E Discussion] ITT we all get behind gnomes.

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    SkyCaptainSkyCaptain IndianaRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Working on a multi-phase boss encounter, similar to what happens in many raids in many mmo's.

    http://rpg-bestiary.wikidot.com/monster:the-eidolon

    Phase 1: The Eidolon is a humanoid, obsidian skin covered in runes wielding a dark blade that drips shadows.

    Phase 2: He turns into an insubstantial writhing mass of shadows and at the beginning of their initiative, it spawns a shadow beast minion next to each living creature within X squares. It's currently set at 10 squares, but I might reduce it to either five or eight squares. The Eidolon cannot take any actions while in this form.

    Phase 3: The Eidolon turns into an Avatar of Shadows (think void walker from WoW). Shadowbolt fury (attack x within y) and more minion spawning. Haven't looked at interrupt or reaction powers yet. Maybe a shadow based damage aura after being bloodied as it leaks shadowstuff.

    SkyCaptain on
    The RPG Bestiary - Dangerous foes and legendary monsters for D&D 4th Edition
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    Jack HobbesJack Hobbes Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Not a big fan of the WoW-style encounter. WoW fights tend to be "You must do X and only X to beat this boss, and if you try anything other than X you will die". D&D fights work better when they're more fluid and less rigid.

    Jack Hobbes on
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    SkyCaptainSkyCaptain IndianaRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Not a big fan of the WoW-style encounter. WoW fights tend to be "You must do X and only X to beat this boss, and if you try anything other than X you will die". D&D fights work better when they're more fluid and less rigid.

    There's nothing there like that. Did you even read it or did you just want to whine about WoW? Seriously, my only reference to WoW was the voidwalker because it looks cool.

    SkyCaptain on
    The RPG Bestiary - Dangerous foes and legendary monsters for D&D 4th Edition
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    AbbalahAbbalah Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    SkyCaptain wrote: »
    Working on a multi-phase boss encounter, similar to what happens in many raids in many mmo's.

    http://rpg-bestiary.wikidot.com/monster:the-eidolon

    Phase 1: The Eidolon is a humanoid, obsidian skin covered in runes wielding a dark blade that drips shadows.

    Phase 2: He turns into an insubstantial writhing mass of shadows and at the beginning of their initiative, it spawns a shadow beast minion next to each living creature within X squares. It's currently set at 10 squares, but I might reduce it to either five or eight squares. The Eidolon cannot take any actions while in this form.

    Phase 3: The Eidolon turns into an Avatar of Shadows (think void walker from WoW). Shadowbolt fury (attack x within y) and more minion spawning. Haven't looked at interrupt or reaction powers yet. Maybe a shadow based damage aura after being bloodied as it leaks shadowstuff.

    This is a neat idea. I like trying to do fights with 'phases' occasionally because it help to combat the grindy aspect you get in some combat, where half the fight is just mopping up after you've won. Keeping the party off-balance and adding new mechanics helps keep things interesting.

    Although a solo that can daze (save ends) up to three target per round, at will, in the heroic tier, and is only the first phase of a fight is going have your players pulling their own and possibly also your hair out.

    Abbalah on
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    SkyCaptainSkyCaptain IndianaRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Oops. Uploaded the old version. The newest version is dazed until the end of their next turn. The purpose is to limit actions, not grant CA on the Eidolons next round of attacks.

    SkyCaptain on
    The RPG Bestiary - Dangerous foes and legendary monsters for D&D 4th Edition
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    hippofanthippofant ティンク Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    I'd like to reiterate my request for any lore about Unther. My google-fu is failure.


    At level 9, encounter budgets start going up by 500 instead of 250. So if I want a +3 encounter for a level 9 party, do I do 2000 + 1500 or should I do 2000 + 750 still?

    hippofant on
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    soxboxsoxbox Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Monster ability in paragon tier increases to account for the jump in player ability that paragon paths give them. To be on the safe side, you should stick to +250 XP for each EL until they cross that hurdle - also beware that if you're using paragon tier monsters against heroic players, there can also be a mismatch in power expectation there.

    Are you starting at that level or have you been working with the players' characters for a while? Erring on the side of caution is probably best if you don't know your characters (and they don't know each other) well.

    soxbox on
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    hippofanthippofant ティンク Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    soxbox wrote: »
    Monster ability in paragon tier increases to account for the jump in player ability that paragon paths give them. To be on the safe side, you should stick to +250 XP for each EL until they cross that hurdle - also beware that if you're using paragon tier monsters against heroic players, there can also be a mismatch in power expectation there.

    Are you starting at that level or have you been working with the players' characters for a while? Erring on the side of caution is probably best if you don't know your characters (and they don't know each other) well.

    For a while, but it's strange, because Paragon starts at 11, not 10, but the jump is at 10 - encounter and monster xp both double. Was just wondering if anybody here - Aegeri? - had some explanation for the math.

    hippofant on
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    AegeriAegeri Tiny wee bacteriums Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    hippofant wrote: »
    soxbox wrote: »
    Monster ability in paragon tier increases to account for the jump in player ability that paragon paths give them. To be on the safe side, you should stick to +250 XP for each EL until they cross that hurdle - also beware that if you're using paragon tier monsters against heroic players, there can also be a mismatch in power expectation there.

    Are you starting at that level or have you been working with the players' characters for a while? Erring on the side of caution is probably best if you don't know your characters (and they don't know each other) well.

    For a while, but it's strange, because Paragon starts at 11, not 10, but the jump is at 10 - encounter and monster xp both double. Was just wondering if anybody here - Aegeri? - had some explanation for the math.

    By level 10 PCs have most of the resources they will ever have in their careers (plus +1 to all stats) with the exception of their PP and ED. Level 10 onwards is the first "step up" with the next being 20. In reality, where monsters started to (pre expertise feats) get ahead on PCs were levels 5, 15 and 25. Their attacks are usually +1 better than a PCs defenses and their AC is higher than a PCs attack.

    By level 25 this was a +3 difference between monsters and PCs. That was (until further splat books like PHB2) a rather big difference to overcome.

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
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    PinfeldorfPinfeldorf Yeah ZestRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    So, a question I feel I should know the answer to but don't...If a power says 'this power may be used as a melee basic attack' can you use that at the end of a charge, or MUST it say 'this power may be used instead of a melee basic attack as part of a charge'? Same question for 'this power may be used as a melee basic attack' vs 'this power may be used as an opportunity attack'.

    Pinfeldorf on
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    AegeriAegeri Tiny wee bacteriums Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Pinfeldorf wrote: »
    So, a question I feel I should know the answer to but don't...If a power says 'this power may be used as a melee basic attack' can you use that at the end of a charge

    Yes, charge simply says you need to make a melee basic attack and thus anything that is a melee basic attack or can be used as one counts. Monsters for example use whatever their MBA is on a charge, otherwise no monster in the game could charge because technically they lack a dedicated MBA power - instead other powers they have count as melee basic attacks.

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
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    Draw On Holy MightDraw On Holy Might Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    re: Balancing Psionics

    I think the easiest way to do it, without forcing people to do anything with their characters they may not necessarily want to do (like making them swap out lowest-level powers), is to just get rid of the augment costs on all the powers individually, and make a universal augment cost for powers across each tier.

    Heroic: Augment 1, Augment 2
    Paragon: Augment 1, Augment 4
    Epic: Augment 2, Augment 6

    Or whatever.
    The cost structure is there already in the powers when they jump in tier, but the problem is they are tied to the powers themselves.

    This way, everyone can keep their Dishearten and Mind Thrust if they want, but when it costs the same to augment either of them as the level 27 powers, a player can either just pick up a new power (since they all cost the same PP anyway, which can actively promote power diversity), or stick with what they like and only be able to use it as much as they should be able to.

    Draw On Holy Might on
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    PinfeldorfPinfeldorf Yeah ZestRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Aegeri wrote: »
    Pinfeldorf wrote: »
    So, a question I feel I should know the answer to but don't...If a power says 'this power may be used as a melee basic attack' can you use that at the end of a charge

    Yes, charge simply says you need to make a melee basic attack and thus anything that is a melee basic attack or can be used as one counts. Monsters for example use whatever their MBA is on a charge, otherwise no monster in the game could charge because technically they lack a dedicated MBA power - instead other powers they have count as melee basic attacks.

    So our Warlock can in fact charge into Eldritch Strike? That is how I ruled it, because that's what made sense to me, but he will be ecstatic that we deciphered it correctly. Thanks, Aegeri.

    Pinfeldorf on
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    ShoggothShoggoth Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    How is everyone not talking about how amazing the runepriest looks? They have a lot of really unique mechanics going for them. I am a bit disappointed that 2 of the 4 runic feats in PHB3 are non combat related but that's only a minor annoyance.

    I've had the brilliant idea to get a giant reversible card with a rune of destruction on one side and a rune of protection on the other so everyone in the party can easily tell which rune state I'm in. I am super excited for arts and crafts!

    Shoggoth on
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    soxboxsoxbox Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Pinfeldorf: Note that there are two different wordings on basic attack powers:

    "This power can be used as / counts as a basic attack"
    "This power can be used instead of / in place of a basic attack".

    Powers / Feats / Items that trigger on or influence melee basic attacks do not affect powers with the later wordings (most powers will use those wordings).

    soxbox on
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    PinfeldorfPinfeldorf Yeah ZestRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    soxbox wrote: »
    Pinfeldorf: Note that there are two different wordings on basic attack powers:

    "This power can be used as / counts as a basic attack"
    "This power can be used instead of / in place of a basic attack".

    Powers / Feats / Items that trigger on or influence melee basic attacks do not affect powers with the later wordings (most powers will use those wordings).

    That hasn't come up yet, but I'll make sure I keep note of it in the future, thanks.

    Pinfeldorf on
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    NephologistNephologist Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Does anyone still play using Google Wave? I can't find any mentions of it since Wave first came out.

    Nephologist on
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    NeurotikaNeurotika Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Shoggoth wrote: »
    How is everyone not talking about how amazing the runepriest looks? They have a lot of really unique mechanics going for them. I am a bit disappointed that 2 of the 4 runic feats in PHB3 are non combat related but that's only a minor annoyance.

    I've had the brilliant idea to get a giant reversible card with a rune of destruction on one side and a rune of protection on the other so everyone in the party can easily tell which rune state I'm in. I am super excited for arts and crafts!

    That sounds really cool. I'm a sucker for visuals like that.

    Neurotika on
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    DelmainDelmain Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Does anyone still play using Google Wave? I can't find any mentions of it since Wave first came out.

    We never found a good mapping app for it. Well, that and I think people weren't checking it often enough because it was still new.

    Delmain on
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    Mr_RoseMr_Rose 83 Blue Ridge Protects the Holy Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    DDi News: A few interesting PPs for Dragonborn today, including one that, in what I believe is a first, grants additional class powers as a Path Feature. I wonder how they're going to work that into the CB?

    Also tomorrow we get an Assassin update. Coinciding with the PH3 release. Is this the fabled Hybrid Assassin rules?

    Mr_Rose on
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    OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Mr_Rose wrote: »
    DDi News: A few interesting PPs for Dragonborn today, including one that, in what I believe is a first, grants additional class powers as a Path Feature. I wonder how they're going to work that into the CB?
    Adroit Explorer already does this, right?

    OptimusZed on
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    streeverstreever Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Adroit Explorer lets you gain either an encounter power you do not currently posses or an additional use of an encounter power you already have. It's an interesting Path, actually: makes for a nice theme. It also adds an extra AP.

    I'm not sure what I think of it though in terms of mechanics: is it useful? Does having extra AP/daily powers mesh with 4es team feel? Not sure. The encounter seems really useful, and I can imagine that the extra AP lets you do one "cool setup" a day, where you burn both of your AP to gain two attacks or just more flexibility, so it is pretty cool in that regard.

    streever on
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    Last SonLast Son Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    streever wrote: »
    Adroit Explorer lets you gain either an encounter power you do not currently posses or an additional use of an encounter power you already have. It's an interesting Path, actually: makes for a nice theme. It also adds an extra AP.

    I'm not sure what I think of it though in terms of mechanics: is it useful? Does having extra AP/daily powers mesh with 4es team feel? Not sure. The encounter seems really useful, and I can imagine that the extra AP lets you do one "cool setup" a day, where you burn both of your AP to gain two attacks or just more flexibility, so it is pretty cool in that regard.

    The extra encounter power from your class replaces the normal encounter power other PPs grant at level 11, so you don't actually have more powers than anyone else. You also can't spend more than 1 AP per encounter(without an item that lets you), it just lets you use APs in the first 3 encounters of the day instead of having to try and ration them.

    Last Son on
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    streeverstreever Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    ahhh
    that makes it seem even less desirable. Most DMs aren't going to setup battles that really require an ap, 3 in a row, so that confirms my suspicion that it doesn't play nicely with the underlying mechanic of the AP/power system/hs being a way to monitor time between rests.

    streever on
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    NephologistNephologist Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Delmain wrote: »
    Does anyone still play using Google Wave? I can't find any mentions of it since Wave first came out.

    We never found a good mapping app for it. Well, that and I think people weren't checking it often enough because it was still new.

    Ah...that makes sense. I've been trying to find out if it'd be possible to set up or join a game with some folks, but this would explain my bad luck.

    Nephologist on
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    SkyCaptainSkyCaptain IndianaRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    I just don't find GoogleWave all that interesting or useful. It's... very clunky and Google has this insane need to make it as hard as possible to permanently delete anything.

    SkyCaptain on
    The RPG Bestiary - Dangerous foes and legendary monsters for D&D 4th Edition
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    NephologistNephologist Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    It does seem to be a shell of what was intended, but I've found it to work pretty well with DnD. Of course, we never really used maps, so...

    Nephologist on
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    Jack HobbesJack Hobbes Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Adroit Explorer is actually considered one of the stronger Paragon Paths, especially for defenders. All of the class features make you remarkably more resilient. The action point power alone (gain resist 10 to all damage whenever you spend an action point, increase to resist 20 at level 21) is enough to get me frothing at the mouth.

    Jack Hobbes on
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    GungHoGungHo Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Shoggoth wrote: »
    I assume psionics had power points in previous editions, right?
    Not before 3rd.
    Um. PSPs.
    Yeah, it was points. I had the Door Inna Head brown Complete Psionics 2nd Edition handbook. I think they had someone go to a Pink Floyd concert to pick out all the interior artwork.

    GungHo on
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    WassermeloneWassermelone Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    It does seem to be a shell of what was intended, but I've found it to work pretty well with DnD. Of course, we never really used maps, so...

    I'm not even sure how this would work with 4.0

    A whole heaping load of powers have to do with different types of movement and using the board and map to create advantages. It would feel rather odd to more or less invalidate large swaths of classes and play styles.

    Wassermelone on
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    hippofanthippofant ティンク Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Silly question: Is there an bonus to bluff checks by polymorphed creatures? The MM mentions Insight vs Bluff + 20 for creatures polymorphed as previously encountered unique individuals, but what about monsters just polymorphed as a generic human male? Is that just straight up Insight vs Bluff?

    Edit: While inside a Shambling Mound, do you have line of effect to the Shambling Mound?

    hippofant on
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    IAmUnawareIAmUnaware Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    On the subject of gaming on Wave, I'm running a game on it right now for some RL friends and it's actually working really well. We're using a gadget called BattleMappy for our map, which is really just Google Maps with a hex grid hacked in at one resolution and a square grid at another. It's pretty simple, but it has everything we need: The ability to draw lines and filled polygons in many different colors, movable markers for units, and text fields attached to everything for flavor text and mechanics.

    It's really nice to be able to edit each other's posts and go back and add posts to clarify things without breaking the flow of the game. I imagine it might be troublesome if you don't know/trust the people you're playing with, though.

    IAmUnaware on
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    FoefallerFoefaller Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    A couple pages back, but...
    Aegeri wrote: »
    Another problem with Power Point Classes: Higher-level unaugmented powers should do more damage. Everyone's at-wills upgrade at level 20, but the basic unaugmented versions of powers above level 20 don't increase in damage. If Power Points = Encounter Powers, then at Epic the Power Point classes will be seriously lacking in DPR.

    Actually they will only be a few points worse, this is because by epic your dice matter little compared to your static mods. 2d6 + 4 in heroic is huge, but by epic 2d6 +30, that 2d6 isn't contributing much.

    How would you get +30 in static damage mods? I can see +6 from the weapon/implement enchantment, and a +8 from stats (assuming you started with 18 in the stat) which would be 14... where does the rest come from?

    Foefaller on
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    IAmUnawareIAmUnaware Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    There are lots of feats and items you can use to bump your damage up. A level 12 sorcerer in my current game has a static damage mod of 22: Cha mod of 6 + 7 from Wild Magic (Dex mod of 5 + 2) + 3 enhancement bonus + 3 off-hand enhancement bonus (via Dual Implement Spellcaster) + 3 item bonus (his mainhand implement is a Staff of Ruin).

    I'm not sure how min-maxed that is. It might be able to get higher. And I'm sure you could stack on many more modifiers by epic tier.

    IAmUnaware on
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    hippofanthippofant ティンク Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Foefaller wrote: »
    A couple pages back, but...
    Aegeri wrote: »
    Another problem with Power Point Classes: Higher-level unaugmented powers should do more damage. Everyone's at-wills upgrade at level 20, but the basic unaugmented versions of powers above level 20 don't increase in damage. If Power Points = Encounter Powers, then at Epic the Power Point classes will be seriously lacking in DPR.

    Actually they will only be a few points worse, this is because by epic your dice matter little compared to your static mods. 2d6 + 4 in heroic is huge, but by epic 2d6 +30, that 2d6 isn't contributing much.

    How would you get +30 in static damage mods? I can see +6 from the weapon/implement enchantment, and a +8 from stats (assuming you started with 18 in the stat) which would be 14... where does the rest come from?

    Staff of Ruin for another 6? Starting with 20 in the stat for another 1. Dark Fury for another 3. Superior Implement - Mindwarp Staff for another 4. I'm at 28 now... hmm. There must be some way to get that additional 2, but I'm too lazy to flip through all the feats/PPs/EDs/items that might apply.

    hippofant on
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    PinfeldorfPinfeldorf Yeah ZestRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Foefaller wrote: »
    A couple pages back, but...
    Aegeri wrote: »
    Another problem with Power Point Classes: Higher-level unaugmented powers should do more damage. Everyone's at-wills upgrade at level 20, but the basic unaugmented versions of powers above level 20 don't increase in damage. If Power Points = Encounter Powers, then at Epic the Power Point classes will be seriously lacking in DPR.

    Actually they will only be a few points worse, this is because by epic your dice matter little compared to your static mods. 2d6 + 4 in heroic is huge, but by epic 2d6 +30, that 2d6 isn't contributing much.

    How would you get +30 in static damage mods? I can see +6 from the weapon/implement enchantment, and a +8 from stats (assuming you started with 18 in the stat) which would be 14... where does the rest come from?

    An Avenger who MCs into Fighter for the Pit Fighter PP can hit that. Just use a lot of Thunder powers, the feat that augments thunder power damage, weapon focus, natural 20 wisdom etc. and you can climb up there. Iron Armbands of Power are +4, +6 mod, +6 mod again, +4 weapon...it adds up.

    Pinfeldorf on
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    PantheraOncaPantheraOnca Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    I was reading over Adroit explorer and it seems like the PP feature does add an extra encounter slot, at least from my reading. Can whoever said it didn't show me something that says otherwise?

    PantheraOnca on
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    soxboxsoxbox Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    I was reading over Adroit explorer and it seems like the PP feature does add an extra encounter slot, at least from my reading. Can whoever said it didn't show me something that says otherwise?

    All other paragon paths get an extra encounter power at level 11 from the path - Adroit explorer gets the extra encounter power from your class list instead - you'll still have the same number of powers as a non adroit explorer.

    soxbox on
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    TomeWyrmTomeWyrm A Limited Liability Partnership Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Pinfeldorf wrote: »
    Foefaller wrote: »
    A couple pages back, but...
    Aegeri wrote: »
    Another problem with Power Point Classes: Higher-level unaugmented powers should do more damage. Everyone's at-wills upgrade at level 20, but the basic unaugmented versions of powers above level 20 don't increase in damage. If Power Points = Encounter Powers, then at Epic the Power Point classes will be seriously lacking in DPR.

    Actually they will only be a few points worse, this is because by epic your dice matter little compared to your static mods. 2d6 + 4 in heroic is huge, but by epic 2d6 +30, that 2d6 isn't contributing much.

    How would you get +30 in static damage mods? I can see +6 from the weapon/implement enchantment, and a +8 from stats (assuming you started with 18 in the stat) which would be 14... where does the rest come from?

    An Avenger who MCs into Fighter for the Pit Fighter PP can hit that. Just use a lot of Thunder powers, the feat that augments thunder power damage, weapon focus, natural 20 wisdom etc. and you can climb up there. Iron Armbands of Power are +4, +6 mod, +6 mod again, +4 weapon...it adds up.

    Yeah, it's actually not so hard for static damage bonuses to reach around 30 per hit, especially for strikers. Rangers - of course - can have some notoriously crazy damage. Around epic the Pit Fighter build is looking at +27 (+8 Str, +7 Wis, +6 weapon, +6 Iron Armbands) per hit before any situational bonuses such as shifting (+2) or weapon powers (+various), Power Attack (+6 at epic) or Called Shot (a whopping +5!). Then you factor in that these guys can hit an enemy several times in a single turn and you suddenly realize the 2d10 from the bastard swords and 3d6/3d8 from Quarry is just icing on the cake.

    Also, did anyone else notice that the dragonborn-exclusive PP article contained one piece of art, and that it was a dwarf?

    TomeWyrm on
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    poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    I know this is all Points Of Light, so I can do what I want, but do elves usually have ghosts in D&D? I want to have some elvish ghosts in my adventure, but I was worried if that doesn't go with most players ideas of elves.

    poshniallo on
    I figure I could take a bear.
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