CIA plants LSD in French Bread

[Tycho?]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/7415082/French-bread-spiked-with-LSD-in-CIA-experiment.html

In 1951, a quiet, picturesque village in southern France was suddenly and mysteriously struck down with mass insanity and hallucinations. At least five people died, dozens were interned in asylums and hundreds afflicted.

For decades it was assumed that the local bread had been unwittingly poisoned with a psychedelic mould. Now, however, an American investigative journalist has uncovered evidence suggesting the CIA peppered local food with the hallucinogenic drug LSD as part of a mind control experiment at the height of the Cold War.

Mr Albarelli said the real "smoking gun" was a White House document sent to members of the Rockefeller Commission formed in 1975 to investigate CIA abuses. It contained the names of a number of French nationals who had been secretly employed by the CIA and made direct reference to the "Pont St. Esprit incident." In its quest to research LSD as an offensive weapon, Mr Albarelli claims, the US army also drugged over 5,700 unwitting American servicemen between 1953 and 1965.

I'm taking this with a grain of salt at the moment, because this sounds more like the plot of James Bond film then something that actually happened. But last I checked the Telegraph was at least half-reputable, and this might be one of those "strange enough to be true moments".

agoaj

They couldn't just stop by their local american college?

dlinfiniti

is this where we can discuss other terrible things we did in the name of science prior to codifying medical ethics?

If so, I nominate the Tuskegee Syphillis Experiments

Hoz

[Tycho?] wrote: »

I'm taking this with a grain of salt at the moment, because this sounds more like the plot of James Bond film then something that actually happened. But last I checked the Telegraph was at least half-reputable, and this might be one of those "strange enough to be true moments".

More like "just idiotic enough to be done by the CIA."

[Tycho?]

Hoz wrote: »

[Tycho?] wrote: »

I'm taking this with a grain of salt at the moment, because this sounds more like the plot of James Bond film then something that actually happened. But last I checked the Telegraph was at least half-reputable, and this might be one of those "strange enough to be true moments".

More like "just idiotic enough to be done by the CIA."

Pretty much, which is why I posted it here. God knows about all the stuff they did that we'll never find out about.

MalaysianShrew

Even if this is not true, I don't know how anyone can trust the CIA to do anything.

Which is why the interview the other night on the Daily Show made no sense.

RUNN1NGMAN

The U.S. government did all kinds of crazy shit with chemical/germ warfare experimentation. They drove gas trucks through towns in the U.S. and then documented how many people showed up in the emergency room--really crazy stuff. I believe they also did some stuff involving using conscientious objectors as human guinea pigs to test infection rates of biological weapons.

Check out Germs by Judith Miller and William Broad. It's pretty crazy stuff.

Burtletoy

Remember, the CIA surgically inserted antenna and a recording device into a cat and tried to use it to spy on russians, where it was promptly run over by a taxi cab.

Ego

[Tycho?] wrote: »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/7415082/French-bread-spiked-with-LSD-in-CIA-experiment.html

In 1951, a quiet, picturesque village in southern France was suddenly and mysteriously struck down with mass insanity and hallucinations. At least five people died, dozens were interned in asylums and hundreds afflicted.

For decades it was assumed that the local bread had been unwittingly poisoned with a psychedelic mould. Now, however, an American investigative journalist has uncovered evidence suggesting the CIA peppered local food with the hallucinogenic drug LSD as part of a mind control experiment at the height of the Cold War.

Mr Albarelli said the real "smoking gun" was a White House document sent to members of the Rockefeller Commission formed in 1975 to investigate CIA abuses. It contained the names of a number of French nationals who had been secretly employed by the CIA and made direct reference to the "Pont St. Esprit incident." In its quest to research LSD as an offensive weapon, Mr Albarelli claims, the US army also drugged over 5,700 unwitting American servicemen between 1953 and 1965.

I'm taking this with a grain of salt at the moment, because this sounds more like the plot of James Bond film then something that actually happened. But last I checked the Telegraph was at least half-reputable, and this might be one of those "strange enough to be true moments".

Given some of the stuff we (the west) did / helped do in Europe after the second world war, this doesn't sound outlandish to me at all.

tinwhiskers

[Tycho?] wrote: »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/7415082/French-bread-spiked-with-LSD-in-CIA-experiment.html

In 1951, a quiet, picturesque village in southern France was suddenly and mysteriously struck down with mass insanity and hallucinations. At least five people died, dozens were interned in asylums and hundreds afflicted.

For decades it was assumed that the local bread had been unwittingly poisoned with a psychedelic mould. Now, however, an American investigative journalist has uncovered evidence suggesting the CIA peppered local food with the hallucinogenic drug LSD as part of a mind control experiment at the height of the Cold War.

Mr Albarelli said the real "smoking gun" was a White House document sent to members of the Rockefeller Commission formed in 1975 to investigate CIA abuses. It contained the names of a number of French nationals who had been secretly employed by the CIA and made direct reference to the "Pont St. Esprit incident." In its quest to research LSD as an offensive weapon, Mr Albarelli claims, the US army also drugged over 5,700 unwitting American servicemen between 1953 and 1965.

I'm taking this with a grain of salt at the moment, because this sounds more like the plot of James Bond film then something that actually happened. But last I checked the Telegraph was at least half-reputable, and this might be one of those "strange enough to be true moments".

A report on the CIA attempting to weaponise a hallucinogen contains a reference to a town, were everyone was simultaneously effected by some sort of hallucinogen. Not going to rule it out as the CIA did some insane stuff then, but it could be mentioned as a sort of inspiration. 51 seems a bit early for the MKULTRA mind control stuff, esp considering LSD only entered clinical us in 47(wiki).

tinwhiskers

http://www.france24.com/en/20100311-gard-france-cia-usa-pont-saint-esprit-lsd-cursed-bread-baker-poison-illness
LSD inconsistent with symptoms

Steven Kaplan, a US historian specialising in French food history and the author of the 2008 book “Le pain maudit” told FRANCE 24: “I have numerous objections to this paltry evidence against the CIA. First of all, it's clinically incoherent: LSD takes effects in just a few hours, whereas the inhabitants showed symptoms only after 36 hours or more. Furthermore, LSD does not cause the digestive ailments or the vegetative effects described by the townspeople.”

Furthermore, Kaplan deems the whole notion “harebrained”. “It is absurd, this idea of transmitting a very toxic drug by putting it in bread," he said. "As for pulverising it [for ingestion through the air], that technology was not even possible at that time. Most compellingly, why would they choose the town of Pont-Saint-Esprit to conduct these tests? It was half-destroyed by the US Army during fighting with the Germans in the Second World War. It makes no sense.”

http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2010/03/11/nonsense_about_lsd.php

Author is a idiot who doesn't actually understand what LSD even is.

I think we can dispose of this new book and its author pretty quickly. Just take a look at some of his scoop:

However, H P Albarelli Jr., an investigative journalist, claims the outbreak resulted from a covert experiment directed by the CIA and the US Army's top-secret Special Operations Division (SOD) at Fort Detrick, Maryland.
The scientists who produced both alternative explanations, he writes, worked for the Swiss-based Sandoz Pharmaceutical Company, which was then secretly supplying both the Army and CIA with LSD.

Mr Albarelli came across CIA documents while investigating the suspicious suicide of Frank Olson, a biochemist working for the SOD who fell from a 13th floor window two years after the Cursed Bread incident. One note transcribes a conversation between a CIA agent and a Sandoz official who mentions the "secret of Pont-Saint-Esprit" and explains that it was not "at all" caused by mould but by diethylamide, the D in LSD.

Laughter may now commence. For the non-chemists in the audience, diethylamide isn't a separate compound; it's the name of a chemical group. And LSD isn't some sort of three-component mixture, it's the diethylamide derivative of the parent compound, lysergic acid. (I'd like to hear this guy explain to me what the "S" stands for). Diethylamides have no particular hallucinogenic properties; they're too small and common a chemical group for anything like that. DEET, the insect repellent, is a common one, and there are plenty of others.

In short, neither the author of this new book, nor the people at the Telegraph, nor the supposed scientific "source" of this quote, know anything about chemistry. This is like saying that the secret of TNT is a compound called "Tri". Nonsense.

Really it seems to me this guy has uncovered a hidden CIA secret, with tons of good evidence, all of which is in his new book that; you can buy for only $19.99

Tanolen

I still love the psychic division that they started up to combat russians.

Awk

or the brainwashing / electrocution attempts in Canada..

Bergy

I can feel their eyes on me right now.

Panda4You

dlinfiniti wrote: »

is this where we can discuss other terrible things we did in the name of science prior to codifying medical ethics?

If so, I nominate the Tuskegee Syphillis Experiments

[IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/05/John_Heller.jpg[/IMG] wrote:

The men's status did not warrant ethical debate. They were subjects, not patients; clinical material, not sick people.

Ahahaha oh cold-fish beaurocratic administrators, what won't you say?

Henroid

I think the thread title should be changed to "planted" instead of "plants."

Oh don't get me wrong, I appreciate a good catchy title.

TL DR

You mean the CIA drugged innocent people with LSD in pursuit of evil mind control powers?

I'm shocked. Shocked.

Feral

I'm skeptical. Why use some random French village when they had plenty of soldiers to experiment on?

Mr Albarelli came across CIA documents while investigating the suspicious suicide of Frank Olson, a biochemist working for the SOD who fell from a 13th floor window two years after the Cursed Bread incident. One note transcribes a conversation between a CIA agent and a Sandoz official who mentions the "secret of Pont-Saint-Esprit" and explains that it was not "at all" caused by mould but by diethylamide, the D in LSD.

Okay. release the documents in question under FOIA and put them on the Internet. Then maybe we'll have something to talk about.

Otherwise my money is on naturally occurring ergotamine analogues in bread mold.

Garthor

I think everybody's going to agree that this is rather bullshit, so let's just go on about various other shit the CIA does?

My own personal interest is how it worked to undermine the black civil rights movement in the 60s or so, even under an administration that was otherwise for it. I can't for the life of me remember any names, though, so I can't link it.

But generally, yeah, the CIA really had (and probably still has) jack shit for oversight.

nescientist

Far and away the best thing the CIA ever did with LSD is introduce it (clandestinely, of course; they are after all a clandestine agency) to the nervous systems of the patrons of a whorehouse in San Francisco that the CIA owned and ran for some reason.

Like, seriously, what? How do a bunch of people who are ostensibly professionals in service of their country end up... there?

Feral

nescientist wrote: »

Far and away the best thing the CIA ever did with LSD is introduce it (clandestinely, of course; they are after all a clandestine agency) to the nervous systems of the patrons of a whorehouse in San Francisco that the CIA owned and ran for some reason.

Like, seriously, what? How do a bunch of people who are ostensibly professionals in service of their country end up... there?

Wait what? This sounds awesome. Do you have a link?

LoveIsUnity

Garthor wrote: »

I think everybody's going to agree that this is rather bullshit, so let's just go on about various other shit the CIA does?

My own personal interest is how it worked to undermine the black civil rights movement in the 60s or so, even under an administration that was otherwise for it. I can't for the life of me remember any names, though, so I can't link it.

But generally, yeah, the CIA really had (and probably still has) jack shit for oversight.

You're thinking of Cointelpro.

Heatwave

Oh, CIA. You and your silly experiments.

Synthesis

Ah, the CIA--embodying the finest traditions of both crazy secret police organizations and mad scientists together. At least in the past.

Kipling217

It speaks volumes about the CIA when something so ultimatly pointless and batshits crazy does not sound out of character.

They probably didn't do it, but it sounds like something they would do if they got the chance. Fnord!

chasm

So, like...Walter Bishop is real?

Jokerman

Garthor wrote: »

I think everybody's going to agree that this is rather bullshit, so let's just go on about various other shit the CIA does?

My own personal interest is how it worked to undermine the black civil rights movement in the 60s or so, even under an administration that was otherwise for it. I can't for the life of me remember any names, though, so I can't link it.

But generally, yeah, the CIA really had (and probably still has) jack shit for oversight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKULTRA

is it really such a stretch?

L|ama

It's not that they wouldn't have done it if they had any reason to, but... they didn't. As stated before: They had plenty of soldiers to test it on, or German cities in the allied zone if they didn't want to test on americans, or anything else.

It also has an incredibly obvious and much more reasonable explanation: ergot poisoning.

Garthor

LoveIsUnity wrote: »

Garthor wrote: »

I think everybody's going to agree that this is rather bullshit, so let's just go on about various other shit the CIA does?

My own personal interest is how it worked to undermine the black civil rights movement in the 60s or so, even under an administration that was otherwise for it. I can't for the life of me remember any names, though, so I can't link it.

But generally, yeah, the CIA really had (and probably still has) jack shit for oversight.

You're thinking of Cointelpro.

That is exactly what I was thinking of, thanks.

Jokerman

L|ama wrote: »

It's not that they wouldn't have done it if they had any reason to, but... they didn't. As stated before: They had plenty of soldiers to test it on, or German cities in the allied zone if they didn't want to test on americans, or anything else.

It also has an incredibly obvious and much more reasonable explanation: ergot poisoning.

You are operating under the assumptions of a rational human being. The CIA was ANY FUCKING THING but rational back in the day.

L|ama

And you're operating under the logic of a 9/11 truther.

'I think the Government/CIA wanted to do this, therefore they did!'

Jokerman

Yes, clearly i'm acting like a crazed truther because I believe it's possible the CIA would do something they were already doing at the time.

Man I am out there, right?

Keep your ad hominems to yourself.

L|ama

Maybe you should actually base your thinking on evidence instead of guesses, wild accusation and extrapolating things way too far.

Jokerman

What wild accusations? That the CIA would use LSD willy nilly? Like they did over and over and over again in the 60's and that's widely documented in the MK ULTRA program?

I'm not grasping for straws here buddy. They did this shit all the fucking time.

electricitylikesme

One reference to a French town certainly doesn't make a compelling case. As people have pointed out, the timeline and symptoms are wrong - it seems much more likely to me that someone was basically saying "you know that thing in France? What if we had a way to cause that wherever we wanted?"

RonaldoTheGypsy

If this had popped up in (not)Spain we'd already have the conclusion:

Only slightly less believable

Jokerman

electricitylikesme wrote: »

One reference to a French town certainly doesn't make a compelling case. As people have pointed out, the timeline and symptoms are wrong - it seems much more likely to me that someone was basically saying "you know that thing in France? What if we had a way to cause that wherever we wanted?"

You cannot dismiss this straight out of hand. LSD had been around for 13 years at that point, and it most certainly fits the aproximate timeframe of MK ULTRA precursons Project CHATTER and Project ARTICHOKE, which both dealt with new interrigation methods and mind control. In the height of the MK ULTRA program the CIA frequently did this, Contracting out experiements to be carried out to study the effects of strong halucenagenic drugs. Even if it wasn't LSD, that wasnt the only drug they were experimenting with at the time.

Al_wat

Synthesis wrote: »

Ah, the CIA--embodying the finest traditions of both crazy secret police organizations and mad scientists together. At least in the past.

Keep on thinkin that.

Citizen.

L|ama

Oh so because the symptoms don't match LSD, now they must have used another drug. Solid logic there buddy. Keep changing the argument to fit the evidence.

Jokerman

L|ama wrote: »

Oh so because the symptoms don't match LSD, now they must have used another drug. Solid logic there buddy. Keep changing the argument to fit the evidence.

I'm sorry, does the fact that they may or may not have used LSD (remember the time frame is possible for LSD) change any of the crux of my argument that it was not only possible but propable, at least to some degree, for the CIA to have engaged in such an action.

Or do you want to hand wave the rest of my argument away?

Symptoms of Villagers, compared with a list of known side effects of LSD below.

The symptoms described in the article wrote:

On August 16, 1951, the inhabitants were suddenly racked with frightful hallucinations of terrifying beasts and fire.

One man tried to drown himself, screaming that his belly was being eaten by snakes. An 11-year-old tried to strangle his grandmother. Another man shouted: "I am a plane", before jumping out of a second-floor window, breaking his legs. He then got up and carried on for 50 yards. Another saw his heart escaping through his feet and begged a doctor to put it back. Many were taken to the local asylum in strait jackets.

Erowid Psychoactive Vault wrote:

POSITIVE:
increase in energy (stimulation)
increase in associative & creative thinking
mood lift
increased awareness & appreciation of music
increased awareness of senses (eating, drinking, smell)
closed and open eye visuals
life-changing spiritual experiences
therapeutic psychological reflection
feeling of oceanic connectedness to the universe; blurring of boundaries between self and other

NEUTRAL:
general change in consciousness
pupil dilation
difficulty focusing
increased salivation and mucus production (causes coughing in some people)
unusual body sensations (facial flushing, chills, goosebumps, body energy)
unusual thoughts and speech
change in perception of time
quickly changing emotions (happiness, fear, gidiness, anxiety, anger, joy, irritation)
slight increase in body temperature
slight increase in heart rate
increase in yawning (without being tired)

NEGATIVE:
anxiety
tension, jaw tension
increased perspiration
difficulty regulating body temperature
nausea
dizziness, confusion
insomnia
megalomania
over-awareness & over-sensitization to music and noise
paranoia, fear, and panic
unwanted and overwhelming feelings
unwanted life-changing spiritual experiences
flashbacks

L|ama

well done, the symptoms match up with many hallucinogens. Fancy that. Know what else is a hallucinogen? Ergolines, which are produced naturally by the ergot fungus, Claviceps purpurea and others in the family. These often grow in grains, which are then turned into flour, which is then turned into bread. Surprise! A much more sensible answer than the CIA experimenting in france where they can neither control nor monitor the experiment actively.

tinwhiskers wrote: »

http://www.france24.com/en/20100311-gard-france-cia-usa-pont-saint-esprit-lsd-cursed-bread-baker-poison-illness
LSD inconsistent with symptoms
Steven Kaplan, a US historian specialising in French food history and the author of the 2008 book “Le pain maudit” told FRANCE 24: “I have numerous objections to this paltry evidence against the CIA. First of all, it's clinically incoherent: LSD takes effects in just a few hours, whereas the inhabitants showed symptoms only after 36 hours or more. Furthermore, LSD does not cause the digestive ailments or the vegetative effects described by the townspeople.”

Furthermore, Kaplan deems the whole notion “harebrained”. “It is absurd, this idea of transmitting a very toxic drug by putting it in bread," he said. "As for pulverising it [for ingestion through the air], that technology was not even possible at that time. Most compellingly, why would they choose the town of Pont-Saint-Esprit to conduct these tests? It was half-destroyed by the US Army during fighting with the Germans in the Second World War. It makes no sense.”