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Education: Who needs it? Not Americans.

135

Posts

  • Casual EddyCasual Eddy Fighting the War on String Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    about teacher pay, keep in mind that it scales very poorly to the cost of living in area, and it also has awful rates of pay increases. Teachers get a small raise every year they work, and they get a wage bump if they have a masters or phd. The last chart I saw pegged a teacher with 30 years experience making less than 50,000 a year. What other professions that require degrees pay that much after 30 years of experience?

    75trafim7bi2.png
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    about teacher pay, keep in mind that it scales very poorly to the cost of living in area, and it also has awful rates of pay increases. Teachers get a small raise every year they work, and they get a wage bump if they have a masters or phd. The last chart I saw pegged a teacher with 30 years experience making less than 50,000 a year. What other professions that require degrees pay that much after 30 years of experience?

    Not to mention that teachers are required to complete a set amount of CPE by law, and in many places are expected to acquire their M.Ed. within a certain timeframe as well.

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  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    ronya wrote: »
    edit: a note for people on the left side of the spectrum. The welfare implications of #4 are pretty stunning; it entails the university capturing 100% of any welfare surplus to education in the limit. This is a genuine concern to which we should swing the legislative hammer. Economic logic suggests that "we charge Peter more to allow Paul to attend" is not something universities would prefer to do; they'll just charge Peter more and keep the revenue. #4 sounds like de facto progressive taxation but it is not!

    Only if Paul is paying under cost. In other words, if you can charge Peter Cost+50, and Paul only Cost+1, and the alternative is to not get Paul's money at all, it makes more sense to have two prices instead of taking only the people who can pay Cost+50, or having a universal price of Cost+25.

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  • ronyaronya Arrrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    ronya wrote: »
    edit: a note for people on the left side of the spectrum. The welfare implications of #4 are pretty stunning; it entails the university capturing 100% of any welfare surplus to education in the limit. This is a genuine concern to which we should swing the legislative hammer. Economic logic suggests that "we charge Peter more to allow Paul to attend" is not something universities would prefer to do; they'll just charge Peter more and keep the revenue. #4 sounds like de facto progressive taxation but it is not!

    Only if Paul is paying under cost. In other words, if you can charge Peter Cost+50, and Paul only Cost+1, and the alternative is to not get Paul's money at all, it makes more sense to have two prices instead of taking only the people who can pay Cost+50, or having a universal price of Cost+25.

    You're advocating surplus capture by the university - if the university can charge Peter Cost + 50, it can also charge Peter Cost +51, +52, +53 etc. until it captures almost all the benefit of going to university. Unbridled price discrimination does not lead anywhere nice.

    In both cases it charges more than Cost (by definition), so the law of one price and competition would dictate charging both Cost + 1, and both Peter and Paul get to go to college. And this should ideally be the legislative outcome under market failure as well.

  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    ronya wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    ronya wrote: »
    edit: a note for people on the left side of the spectrum. The welfare implications of #4 are pretty stunning; it entails the university capturing 100% of any welfare surplus to education in the limit. This is a genuine concern to which we should swing the legislative hammer. Economic logic suggests that "we charge Peter more to allow Paul to attend" is not something universities would prefer to do; they'll just charge Peter more and keep the revenue. #4 sounds like de facto progressive taxation but it is not!

    Only if Paul is paying under cost. In other words, if you can charge Peter Cost+50, and Paul only Cost+1, and the alternative is to not get Paul's money at all, it makes more sense to have two prices instead of taking only the people who can pay Cost+50, or having a universal price of Cost+25.

    You're advocating surplus capture by the university - if the university can charge Peter Cost + 50, it can also charge Peter Cost +51, +52, +53 etc. until it captures almost all the benefit of going to university. Unbridled price discrimination does not lead anywhere nice.

    In both cases it charges more than Cost (by definition), so the law of one price and competition would dictate charging both Cost + 1, and both Peter and Paul get to go to college. And this should ideally be the legislative outcome under market failure as well.

    It can charge Peter up to the point where Peter goes "wow, this is too expensive, I'll just got to 'not quite as good school B'". There is an upper ceiling set by the market.

    Furthermore, schools need surplus money to invest in new buildings, faculties, etc if they are going to keep up with the competition. So setting tuition at barely above cost would not be a viable long term strategy.

    Also, the cost is largely not fixed. If you already have a class of 20 people, adding person 21 comes at little to no cost to you, so if you charge him for only that additional charge, they're tuition would be dramatically lower.

    The combination of all these factors is that you can admit students at many different levels of tuition without losing money on any of them.

    While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
  • TlexTlex Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    A bit off the current tangent here, but could anyone tell me why( as far as I know) History and Geography are taught in the same subject in the US? I was pretty amazed that 2 subjects which I regard as fundamentally as different as Maths/English could possibly be taught by the same teacher with any kind of competence. eg in Britain at my Sixth form college I have 6 teachers between those 2 subjects, each teaching their area of expertise.

  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Tlex wrote: »
    A bit off the current tangent here, but could anyone tell me why( as far as I know) History and Geography are taught in the same subject in the US? I was pretty amazed that 2 subjects which I regard as fundamentally as different as Maths/English could possibly be taught by the same teacher with any kind of competence. eg in Britain at my Sixth form college I have 6 teachers between those 2 subjects, each teaching their area of expertise.
    History and Geography are intrinsically linked. Particularly when you're talking about US History and it's geography.

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  • TlexTlex Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Except they're not, at all, even a little bit.

    That is unless you regard Geography as maps and History as chaps.

  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Tlex wrote: »
    Except they're not, at all, even a little bit.

    That is unless you regard Geography as maps and History as chaps.
    History is what happened, geography is where it happened. Particularly when you're discussing man-made things like cities and borders and whatnot.

    You can't discuss things like the American Civil War without getting into the settlements and states and when they were founded and such. Why not teach them concurrently?

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  • TlexTlex Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Geography is not 'where is happened'.

    Geography is the study of how the world works, Coastal Geography, Volcanology, Glaciology, Environmental Geography and so on.


    Locations of battles, settlements, etc is part of History, no?

    edit: I also recognise that there are many human aspects to Geography too-of course, Historical Geography is a good example, but that's only one aspect of 'Human' Geography, out of many.

  • Casual EddyCasual Eddy Fighting the War on String Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    that would probably fall under earth science... or at least it did at my school.

    geography I thought was more the study of maps and artificial distinctions, like borders and stuff

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  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Geology and other natural forces get their own class, usually called Earth Science. Geography is purely places and borders and those sorts of things.

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  • TlexTlex Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    That's cool, just not how i've been brought up to see it I guess. In the UK we study Geography as one whole, with 2 main distinctions-Physical(Earth Sci stuff) and Human. There's almost no map study at all, ever, except for when we have to identify land forms from contours/pictures etc.

  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Tlex wrote: »
    That's cool, just not how i've been brought up to see it I guess. In the UK we study Geography as one whole, with 2 main distinctions-Physical(Earth Sci stuff) and Human. There's almost no map study at all, ever, except for when we have to identify land forms from contours/pictures etc.
    Yeah, that's not the American concept of geography at all. Ours is all place names and borders and things, which is why it couples well with history.

    Rock types and erosion and mountain forming and all that is Earth Science or something like that depending on where you are. Usually covered in jr high.

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  • LindenLinden Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Geography is an immense subject, including, in addition to those referred to above, the study of the relationships between humans and the land on which they live. Maps are a tiny component! Climatology, for instance, is a component of geography, as is the interaction of people via the web.

    As a demonstration that this isn't restricted to the UK, consider the name of the National Geographic Society. Earth science is a field that is in some respects broader, but arguably ignores the human side of things.

    Further, the comments here make me wonder just where human geography is studied.

    *if a tenuous one – geography, to a certain degree, implies history.

    What if this weren't a rhetorical question?
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Tlex wrote: »
    That's cool, just not how i've been brought up to see it I guess. In the UK we study Geography as one whole, with 2 main distinctions-Physical(Earth Sci stuff) and Human. There's almost no map study at all, ever, except for when we have to identify land forms from contours/pictures etc.
    Yeah, that's not the American concept of geography at all. Ours is learning which country we're bombing that week, which is why it couples well with history.

    Lose: to suffer defeat, to misplace (Ex: "I hope I don't lose the match." "Did you lose your phone again?")
    Loose: about to slip, to release (Ex: "That knot is loose." "Loose arrows.")
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Tlex wrote: »
    That's cool, just not how i've been brought up to see it I guess. In the UK we study Geography as one whole, with 2 main distinctions-Physical(Earth Sci stuff) and Human. There's almost no map study at all, ever, except for when we have to identify land forms from contours/pictures etc.
    Yeah, that's not the American concept of geography at all. Ours is learning which country we're bombing that week, which is why it couples well with history.
    This certainly isn't untrue.

    There's a reason more of our generation can find Kuwait on a map than can name a half dozen former soviet satellites.

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  • Saint MadnessSaint Madness Registered User
    edited March 2010
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Tlex wrote: »
    That's cool, just not how i've been brought up to see it I guess. In the UK we study Geography as one whole, with 2 main distinctions-Physical(Earth Sci stuff) and Human. There's almost no map study at all, ever, except for when we have to identify land forms from contours/pictures etc.
    Yeah, that's not the American concept of geography at all. Ours is learning which country we're bombing that week, which is why it couples well with history.

    according-to-americans.jpg

  • KistraKistra Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Linden wrote: »
    Geography is an immense subject, including, in addition to those referred to above, the study of the relationships between humans and the land on which they live. Maps are a tiny component! Climatology, for instance, is a component of geography, as is the interaction of people via the web.

    As a demonstration that this isn't restricted to the UK, consider the name of the National Geographic Society. Earth science is a field that is in some respects broader, but arguably ignores the human side of things.

    Further, the comments here make me wonder just where human geography is studied.

    *if a tenuous one – geography, to a certain degree, implies history.

    See climatology and geology were separate classes at my highschool, both advanced classes in the earth science department (along with astronomy and oceanography, but those are less relevant to the discussion at hand). Geography was a relatively small subsection of social studies where we learned what constitutes an archipelago or an isthmus and locations of different countries.

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  • HenroidHenroid Nobody Nowhere fastRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Tlex wrote: »
    That's cool, just not how i've been brought up to see it I guess. In the UK we study Geography as one whole, with 2 main distinctions-Physical(Earth Sci stuff) and Human. There's almost no map study at all, ever, except for when we have to identify land forms from contours/pictures etc.
    Yeah, that's not the American concept of geography at all. Ours is learning which country we're bombing that week, which is why it couples well with history.

    according-to-americans.jpg

    Africa seems to have disappeared.

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  • nescientistnescientist Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    I remember being initially somewhat worried about a political science course; I hadn't taken a traditional American Gov/Civics class in high school, and feared that I would be behind my peers.

    In the introductory class session, these peers failed (at a better than 50% rate) to locate Iraq on an unlabeled map of the middle east.

    College - and not even just freshmen, either.

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  • VerrVerr Registered User
    edited March 2010
    Everything I hear about education in the US is terrifying. Good motivation for me to get good marks at college and get a nice job so I can afford to send my (future?) kids to an good school.

  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Verr wrote: »
    Everything I hear about education in the US is terrifying. Good motivation for me to get good marks at college and get a nice job so I can afford to send my (future?) kids to an good school.

    It's more a crapshoot. If you live somewhere wealthy you're probably in good shape (or you're wealthy enough to send the childrens to private school.) There are REALLY good public schools (especially if it's a rich white suburb... like, um, mine) and REALLY bad public schools.

    And assuming you can afford it/the kids are willing to take loans, the college system here is still the world's best by a pretty large margin.

    Lose: to suffer defeat, to misplace (Ex: "I hope I don't lose the match." "Did you lose your phone again?")
    Loose: about to slip, to release (Ex: "That knot is loose." "Loose arrows.")
  • DehumanizedDehumanized Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Henroid wrote: »
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Tlex wrote: »
    That's cool, just not how i've been brought up to see it I guess. In the UK we study Geography as one whole, with 2 main distinctions-Physical(Earth Sci stuff) and Human. There's almost no map study at all, ever, except for when we have to identify land forms from contours/pictures etc.
    Yeah, that's not the American concept of geography at all. Ours is learning which country we're bombing that week, which is why it couples well with history.

    [IM G]http://buelahman.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/according-to-americans.jpg[/IMG]

    Africa seems to have disappeared.

    Where?

    steam_sig.png
  • LeitnerLeitner Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Verr wrote: »
    Everything I hear about education in the US is terrifying. Good motivation for me to get good marks at college and get a nice job so I can afford to send my (future?) kids to an good school.

    It's more a crapshoot. If you live somewhere wealthy you're probably in good shape (or you're wealthy enough to send the childrens to private school.) There are REALLY good public schools (especially if it's a rich white suburb... like, um, mine) and REALLY bad public schools.

    And assuming you can afford it/the kids are willing to take loans, the college system here is still the world's best by a pretty large margin.

    :|

    Not really.

  • The ScribeThe Scribe Registered User
    edited March 2010
    Balanced budget is fine if people would get over their fears of taxes that they'll never be in a high enough income bracket to worry about

    Seriously are we going to have to slide into another great depression before people wake the fuck up and realize that our society cannot hold without raising taxes on the rich?

    Unfortunately, most Americans like and admire rich people, and a large number imagine, however irrationally, that they will get rich before they die. D::(

  • LoklarLoklar Registered User
    edited March 2010
    The Scribe wrote: »
    Unfortunately, most Americans like and admire rich people, and a large number imagine, however irrationally, that they will get rich before they die. D::(

    That's something I always admired about Americans.

  • HenroidHenroid Nobody Nowhere fastRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Edit - Hey y'know what? Wrong thread. Oops.

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  • ÆthelredÆthelred Registered User
    edited March 2010
    Leitner wrote: »
    Verr wrote: »
    Everything I hear about education in the US is terrifying. Good motivation for me to get good marks at college and get a nice job so I can afford to send my (future?) kids to an good school.

    It's more a crapshoot. If you live somewhere wealthy you're probably in good shape (or you're wealthy enough to send the childrens to private school.) There are REALLY good public schools (especially if it's a rich white suburb... like, um, mine) and REALLY bad public schools.

    And assuming you can afford it/the kids are willing to take loans, the college system here is still the world's best by a pretty large margin.

    :|

    Not really.

    Yes really. The US dominates international university rankings.

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  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Loklar wrote: »
    The Scribe wrote: »
    Unfortunately, most Americans like and admire rich people, and a large number imagine, however irrationally, that they will get rich before they die. D::(

    That's something I always admired about Americans.
    I imagine it's easier to admire when you're not living in the country that mentality is a actively fucking over.

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  • LeitnerLeitner Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Æthelred wrote: »
    Yes really. The US dominates international university rankings.

    If this is your measure. The UK according to the Times Higher Educations latest study has 40% of the top ten places (compared to 60% with the US), and 18% of the top 100 (compared to 36%).

    Remind me, what is the difference in population?

  • LavaKnightLavaKnight Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    The Scribe wrote: »
    Balanced budget is fine if people would get over their fears of taxes that they'll never be in a high enough income bracket to worry about

    Seriously are we going to have to slide into another great depression before people wake the fuck up and realize that our society cannot hold without raising taxes on the rich?

    Unfortunately, most Americans like and admire rich people, and a large number imagine, however irrationally, that they will get rich before they die. D::(

    This is the case in my state of Nevada, unfortunately, and education is paying the biggest price for our governor's (Jim Gibbons) unwavering commitment to not raise any taxes at all.

    The University of Nevada here in Reno recently closed a college outright (my old college, actually), and has to drop all foreign language majors except for Spanish.

    Additionally, the state is looking at either closing a lot of primary schools that are in need of repair, or laying off half the teachers. Similar to what happened recently in Rhode Island. My little sister's middle school is one on the blocks, which understandably has my family really pissed.

  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Æthelred wrote: »
    Yes really. The US dominates international university rankings.

    Having graduated from a US university, this fills me with terror.

    freefallagentad_zps635a83ed.png
  • HachfaceHachface Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Æthelred wrote: »
    Yes really. The US dominates international university rankings.

    Having graduated from a US university, this fills me with terror.

    As is the case in all things American, the divide between the elite institutions and your local diploma mill is vast.

  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Hachface wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Æthelred wrote: »
    Yes really. The US dominates international university rankings.

    Having graduated from a US university, this fills me with terror.

    As is the case in all things American, the divide between the elite institutions and your local diploma mill is vast.

    Bush went to Yale.

    Terror.

    freefallagentad_zps635a83ed.png
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Hachface wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Æthelred wrote: »
    Yes really. The US dominates international university rankings.

    Having graduated from a US university, this fills me with terror.

    As is the case in all things American, the divide between the elite institutions and your local diploma mill is vast.

    So it's just like US Health Care.

    It's only "the best" if you don't consider the standard deviation.

  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    shryke wrote: »
    So it's just like US Health Care.

    It's only "the best" if you don't consider the standard deviation.

    America has the best stuff.

    AmericaNs can't afford it.

    freefallagentad_zps635a83ed.png
  • HachfaceHachface Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    It's a great country to be rich in.

  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    shryke wrote: »
    Hachface wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Æthelred wrote: »
    Yes really. The US dominates international university rankings.

    Having graduated from a US university, this fills me with terror.

    As is the case in all things American, the divide between the elite institutions and your local diploma mill is vast.

    So it's just like US Health Care.

    It's only "the best" if you don't consider the standard deviation.

    Well, it's way more accessible and isn't essentially luck based like getting sick is. But it could still be made easier thus the concern with skyrocketing costs.

    Lose: to suffer defeat, to misplace (Ex: "I hope I don't lose the match." "Did you lose your phone again?")
    Loose: about to slip, to release (Ex: "That knot is loose." "Loose arrows.")
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Hachface wrote: »
    It's a great country to be rich in.

    Or to make use of when you're from an oil-rich country.

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