Neverwinter Nights 2 - Worth a purchase?

Alfred J. Kwak

surrealitycheck wrote: »

AD&D is actually a better functioning system, overall. That doesn't help NWN 2 any, though.

Any system where the zenith of playing a melee character is autoattacking is sad imo

Press "1", "2", "4", 10s cooldown, repeat.

surrealitycheck

Press "1", "2", "4", repeat.

In dragon age the zenith of playing a melee character is NOT using your abilities. They actively harm your dps.

DudBolt

I really liked the base game. I don't get the hate for it at all. And everything is tue about MotB. It is a fantastic Expansion. Haven't tried the others yet.

DisruptorX2

surrealitycheck wrote: »

AD&D is actually a better functioning system, overall. That doesn't help NWN 2 any, though.

Any system where the zenith of playing a melee character is autoattacking is sad imo

So, um, both of them?

surrealitycheck

So, um, both of them?

Yeah, but the intention was at least there with dragon age. They just didn't, you know, learn ANYTHING from world of warcraft. Which is actually quite sad. It took me about an hour to guess a bunch of mistakes they would make about the combat mechanics and every single one turned out to be right

DisruptorX2

Mashing buttons doesn't necessarily make for interesting gameplay. I'm very well versed on the subject of WoW.

WoW is not a party based single player game. The player controls one character. Its not analogous. Hehe, anal.

Dhalphir

One thing that always disappointed me about the original NWN is how badly the DM feature was underused. It was a huge selling point of the game and no one ever used it.

jot

NWN 2 is a pretty solid game.

Yes, the UI is bad. It's not going to give you cancer or something and the patches really did a good job of fixing the most glaring things, but overall, it's pretty meh. Worse than the NWN 1 UI, and that really says something.

More importantly, the AI sucks. Left on their own, your companions will drink all the healing potions in your inventory, cast all high-level spells on the first goblin they see and yet they die all the time. There are tons of options to customize their behaviour, so maybe it could be good if you're willing to invest some time. Me, I just turned it off and controlled the party myself like I did since BG 1 - it's not that big a deal.

The OC isn't that bad, and has some really good parts

Spoiler:

like the whole trial thing, or building your own castle

Overall, I feel the game suffered because they put in too much - there are too many NPCs, for one thing, and some of them are pretty interesting and could have used more time devoted to them, more side-quests and stuff. But then someone at Obsidian probably thought 'eff this, let's include some annoying stuff no-one will like, like a gnomish bard or a really, really boring paladin', and, well, yeah.

None of this matters however since MotB is great and everybody who didn't like it for whatever bullshit reason is some kind of fucking monster. There, I said it.

surrealitycheck

WoW is not a party based single player game. The player controls one character. Its not analogous. Hehe, anal.

Not what I was talking about. I was talking about the DESIGN mistakes that were made in world of warcraft.

WoW involves a class-based RPG system and included almost the exact same combat mechanics as dragon age in many senses. Do you remember the weapon speed normalisation? Caster gear scaling?

WoW is balanced so that players gain usefulness/damage at similar rates. A good single-player RPG is balanced so that the disparate members of a party gain power at roughly the same rate, to avoid some members of the team becoming useless or being required. It's also balanced so that weapons do what they should do: a character specialising in 2-handed weapons should be able to find a use for 2-handed swords as well as 2-handed hammers. There is also a balance inherent in abilities; you want the player to use abilities (they need to be useful without being godlike).

Dragon age failed most of these tests fairly spectacularly. Obvious examples would be archery (not able to apply runes, low damage, generally worthless), 2-handed weapons (as special attacks didn't get the elemental damage from damage auras and runes and most had an execution time, they scaled badly and eventually fell behind auto-attack in damage), stupid mechanical issues (haste not stacking with momentum and actually SLOWING your attack speed), weird behind the scene stat alterations (chain lightning being unable to scale with spell power thus being worthless, flat % damage modifiers on elemental damage being capped at a hidden value), mages being the best in every category (although they did fix the ridiculous arcane warrior behaviour). Most of this is especially odd given that they had 6 months to tune, but there you go.

DisruptorX2

jot wrote: »

Yes, the UI is bad. It's not going to give you cancer or something.

Not fucking funny. I got cancer from that.

surrealitycheck wrote: »

Not what I was talking about. I was talking about the DESIGN mistakes that were made in world of warcraft..

I assumed you were talking about auto attacking, which I don't view as a design problem at all. Also, WoW is a work in progress that's been constantly tweaked for 5 years. Dragon Age......is not. Though, its certainly full of flaws and baffling design problems.

Dhalphir

WoW also has a user base of millions giving constant feedback. Not necessarily verbal feedback (lol official forums) but by seeing which classes are being utilised as more popular and looking at server trends, Blizzard can draw conclusions from that and similar data.

surrealitycheck

Also, WoW is a work in progress that's been constantly tweaked for 5 years. Dragon Age......is not. Though, its certainly full of flaws and baffling design problems.

WoW also has a user base of millions giving constant feedback. Not necessarily verbal feedback (lol official forums) but by seeing which classes are being utilised as more popular and looking at server trends, Blizzard can draw conclusions from that and similar data.

This would be significant if I was complaining about a game that doesn't have some of the exact problems that blizzard already solved. You don't need to be Blizzard to use their solutions, especially when I suspect a large part of the DA development team either plays or has played WoW. It's just... kind of embarassing.

EDIT: Think of it this way. The idea that "scaling" can be a problem is really pretty simple and everybody knows it now. It's also painfully easy to test (equip your different builds with different gearsets and see how their relative performance changes). This is the kind of problem they don't really have an excuse for failing at, especially when their game was finished 6 months before release.

smeej

I would recommend NWN2 for the Mask of the Betrayer xpac alone. As mentioned, it is pretty awesome. The xpacs, in general, are practically different games. I personally liked Zehir, but I can see why it wouldnt be someone's cup.

But yeah, single player blows NWN out of the water.

Fiaryn

Dhalphir wrote: »

I never played NWN multiplayer, so it would purely be a story experience.

Perhaps I'll ask him if I can borrow it to give it a go then make a decision.

If you've never played NWN1 beyond the packaged game content, you've really not experienced NWN1 at all. The mods out there far outstrip anything Bioware produced for NWN1. The same goes for NWN2, the Dark Waters campaign by Adam Miller is certainly worth a play. Mask of the Betrayer and Storm of Zehir are both pretty fun, Storm of Zehir is more of an Icewind Dale experience though if you're into that. Some aren't.

Smaug6

I hate the

Spoiler:

castle building NWN2, I felt like it was going to be this epic battle where all your decisions and hard work mattered. It was just like, hey you have a few extra npcs around and basically doing what you did all game anyways

That being said, I had a fun time with the game before that point turned me off. Never played the expansions.

Fiaryn

The NWN2 OCs problems are easily summed up:

It was an example of Obsidian trying to be Bioware, rather than playing to their own strengths. The result was an incoherent, mediocre pastiche of fantasy epic stuff.

MotB is Obsidian being itself. And Zehir is just goofy, but hey that's okay.

Mild Confusion

I do think DA could have learned a bit from WoW as well when it comes to melee characters. I really dislike playing casters in games (it's a roleplay thing, I like to be fighter/melee classes). So I was one of the many that was unfortunatly disappointed with playing a warrior in the DA campaign. A few more instant attacks would have gone a long way into making melee combat a little more interesting.

But this is a minor flaw for me, I play single player RPGs for story and character development, not epic gameplay.

surrealitycheck

But this is a minor flaw for me, I play single player RPGs for story and character development, not epic gameplay.

The thing is you'll notice RPG elements seeping into every other game at the moment. Small bits of progress given to people piecemeal is a great technique; but what's odd is how slowly RPGs are soaking up the realisation that they can make games with actually good gameplay and still tell a good story. Mass effect 2 creeps towards it, and I'm hoping Alpha protocol will go even further - but I want a game that plays like bayonetta with a story like VTM Bloodlines.

Mild Confusion

surrealitycheck wrote: »

But this is a minor flaw for me, I play single player RPGs for story and character development, not epic gameplay.

The thing is you'll notice RPG elements seeping into every other game at the moment. Small bits of progress given to people piecemeal is a great technique; but what's odd is how slowly RPGs are soaking up the realisation that they can make games with actually good gameplay and still tell a good story. Mass effect 2 creeps towards it, and I'm hoping Alpha protocol will go even further - but I want a game that plays like bayonetta with a story like VTM Bloodlines.

Oh, I totally agree. I don't even consider Mass Effect 2's gameplay rpgish. It's closer to Gears of War than anything else. They wouldn't even need a leveling system if they just straight ripped GoWs combat system imo. The story/path/character creation part is my favorite part of Mass Effect 2 and why I still call it an RPG.

I do find it odd that in many RPG's, the combat takes the same ole route of slow paced or turn based battles that usually have a strategic element. It would be intersting to have a game with Modern Warfare/Halo or Devil May Cry/God of War style combat, but with all the story elements of a Bioware/Obsidian game.

Fiaryn

An RPG based on Exalted with action game-esque combat would be both so very fitting and so very awesome.

Mild Confusion

One dream I've always had is an RPG or, God willing an MMO, with a complex combat system like Soul Calibur.

Dhalphir

Fiaryn wrote: »

Dhalphir wrote: »

I never played NWN multiplayer, so it would purely be a story experience.

Perhaps I'll ask him if I can borrow it to give it a go then make a decision.

If you've never played NWN1 beyond the packaged game content, you've really not experienced NWN1 at all. The mods out there far outstrip anything Bioware produced for NWN1. The same goes for NWN2, the Dark Waters campaign by Adam Miller is certainly worth a play. Mask of the Betrayer and Storm of Zehir are both pretty fun, Storm of Zehir is more of an Icewind Dale experience though if you're into that. Some aren't.

No no I played a ton of the mods. Penultima, for example. Just never touched online play.

eelektrik

I thoroughly enjoyed NWN2, even with its bad interface and camera, it was nowhere near game breaking like so many people bitch about. But as others have said, paying $50 for it used when you get it new cheaper seems kinda silly. Its definitely worth picking up for Mask of the Betrayer though, as it was legitimately awesome.

Dhalphir

Well I know if i enjoy the game when I try it out I'll just pay him less for it.

Alfred J. Kwak

You can get NWN2 + Mask for ~20$ new from Amazon (and probably cheaper elsewhere). Just sayin'.

big l

The expansion (MotB) is really, really great, and the original is okay but loooooong. Expect it to suck at first, the middle third of the game is the best and the beginning has a couple really bad parts (Old Owl Well, in particular).

PolloDiablo

I think it should be added that vanilla NWN2 has the most insultingly terrible ending ever. It's bad even for Obsidian.

Sorenson

Storm of Zehir is also really good if you're the kinda' person who likes the more open-ended aspects of D&D, and it introduces a bunch of really nice features like full party dialogue, full party customization, and a more true-to-source crafting system that ain't a pain in the ass to use and basically lets you loose to do shit as you want to. People give it shit because the plot isn't all high-and-mighty like the core and MOTB campaigns are, but you know, playinig as a badass normal instead of some messianic chosen one afflicted by some curse or bearing some magical heritage or mcguffen is actually nice.

This actually reminds me that I've still got the stuff for a mod I was tinkering around with a little while ago. Maybe I'll reinstall and see how NWN2 and the toolset stands up to Windows 7.

Terrendos

Even if you never play the OC, Mask of the Betrayer is amazing and totally worth 20 bucks.

The OC, fully patched, is mediocre. Passable RPG fare, little more. MotB has probably the best story since Planescape: Torment.

Barcardi

For a not so great game, it was pretty good. I rather like how the story turned out, especially with the expansion.

Metal Gear Solid 2 Demo

For those interested in RP persistent worlds in NWN2 MP, keep your chins up, myself and others are working on a pretty neat server in an arthurian setting with whole new magic system, fealty system, classes, etc. Coming out this spring

I'll probably make a post about it here in G&T when it is out but for now here is the shameless plug

Sorenson

Probably the second-biggest problem with the OC is that very few, if only one, of your companions is actually likeable to any extent.

Spoiler:

Stereotypically dwarven as he is at least Khelgar is fun to have around: what've you got for the rest? A snotty little self-entitled bitch, a high-and-mighty smartass, an oh-so-wise-of-the-world druid (great, two offenses for the price of one!) a destroy-all-evil crusader, a pure and simple asshole, a power-hungry warlock (who then proceeds to suck ass once he's working FOR you instead of again you) and a oh-so-wise-of-the-universe outsider. Criminy, the companions from NWN 1 were far more interesting than this bunch.

Elimination

I really enjoyed NWN2 and clocked hundreds of hours on it with all the downloadable fan content and multiplayer and such. It's totally worth it if you like d&d games and liked NWN1.

Terrendos

Sorenson wrote: »

Probably the second-biggest problem with the OC is that very few, if only one, of your companions is actually likeable to any extent.

Spoiler:

Stereotypically dwarven as he is at least Khelgar is fun to have around: what've you got for the rest? A snotty little self-entitled bitch, a high-and-mighty smartass, an oh-so-wise-of-the-world druid (great, two offenses for the price of one!) a destroy-all-evil crusader, a pure and simple asshole, a power-hungry warlock (who then proceeds to suck ass once he's working FOR you instead of again you) and a oh-so-wise-of-the-universe outsider. Criminy, the companions from NWN 1 were far more interesting than this bunch.

They weren't all that bad.

Spoiler:

Ammon Jerro was awesome, both as a realistic character and as a foil for the protagonist. Neeshka wasn't too bad either if you didn't mind her voice, and Sand was at least amusing. And Grobnar was entertaining enough. And of course there's Blade Golem for personality-less playthroughs.

And now that I think about it, if you're nice to Qara she becomes a lot nicer and easier to deal with as well.

So basically you should have been able to construct a party of completely tolerable characters no matter which class you chose. Personally, playing through as a Cleric (which let me get away with dumping the mostly-annoying healing classes) I didn't have legitimate concerns with any of my party. YMMV of course.

travathian

Worth it yes, worth $50, hell no. I paid $20 for NWN2 Gold and thought it was a decent deal. I wouldn't pay more than $30 for the base game plus all expansions at this point.

Alfred J. Kwak

PolloDiablo wrote: »

I think it should be added that vanilla NWN2 has the most insultingly terrible ending ever. It's bad even for Obsidian.

It's not even the worst ending in an Obsidian game. That title is still firmly held by Kotor 2.

Oh, and all for 25$ is definitely possible (I think SoZ is even the cheapest of bunch).

jot

Terrendos wrote: »

Sorenson wrote: »

Probably the second-biggest problem with the OC is that very few, if only one, of your companions is actually likeable to any extent.

Spoiler:

Stereotypically dwarven as he is at least Khelgar is fun to have around: what've you got for the rest? A snotty little self-entitled bitch, a high-and-mighty smartass, an oh-so-wise-of-the-world druid (great, two offenses for the price of one!) a destroy-all-evil crusader, a pure and simple asshole, a power-hungry warlock (who then proceeds to suck ass once he's working FOR you instead of again you) and a oh-so-wise-of-the-universe outsider. Criminy, the companions from NWN 1 were far more interesting than this bunch.

They weren't all that bad.

Spoiler:

Ammon Jerro was awesome, both as a realistic character and as a foil for the protagonist. Neeshka wasn't too bad either if you didn't mind her voice, and Sand was at least amusing. And Grobnar was entertaining enough. And of course there's Blade Golem for personality-less playthroughs.

And now that I think about it, if you're nice to Qara she becomes a lot nicer and easier to deal with as well.

Hey now

Spoiler:

Sand is awesome and easily my favorite character in NWN 2. Too bad he didn't really get much attention outside the trial scene. I link this everytime someone mentions NWN 2, but I would have loved them to further explore this deleted content here:

Another deleted scene indicated that Qara was much more powerful that anyone had suspected. The scene was suppose to take place before the fall of Highcliff and showed Qara sitting alone by a campfire surrounded by barrels, till Sand suddenly approaches her. Sand confronted her about her lack of restraint and control as usual and thus provoked Qara into showing her true power. Her voice changed and the barrels around her suddenly burst into flames. Sand, who obviously had no idea that Qara was already holding back most of her power all this time was shocked and frightened and decided to leave Qara alone without further provoking her. But unknown to Qara, Bishop was lurking in the shadows and witnessed everything. Sand then approached Bishop and said "She's dangerous. She needs to be stopped". This might be foreshadowing that Qara is actually be a bigger threat than the King of Shadows if left unchecked, which Sand states if he sides with Black Garius.

A real conflict between Sand and Bishop on the one side and Qara and maybe Casavir on the other? And maybe the other characters could be persuaded to join either side, depending on the PCs choices and his influence with them? Could have been more exciting than this King-of-Shadows-business...

PolloDiablo wrote: »

I think it should be added that vanilla NWN2 has the most insultingly terrible ending ever. It's bad even for Obsidian.

I remember someone posting here how the epilogue felt like it was narrated by Bob from accounting. Shame, because some of the other voice actors did a really good job.

DudBolt

I really, really like the OC. Mostly becuase I don't know much about D&D Lore and it really interests me. MotB was a beautiful sequel becuase of it.

Ferrus

The OC had the absolutely wonderful scene in the kings court. Sadly, the rest of the game didn't live up to that and consisted mostly of killing stuff. It isn't bad but it isn't epic either. The worst parts are pretty much all technical: The horrid look of the character models, the UI, the camera (Altough those two can be fixed by mods).

The OC is play-and-forget. Mask of the Betrayer is interesting enough to play a second time at least.

Mild Confusion

Sand made me laugh, that was enough for me.

Qara can DIAF.