Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.
Our rules have been updated and given their own forum. Go and look at them! They are nice, and there may be new ones that you didn't know about! Hooray for rules! Hooray for The System! Hooray for Conforming!

President of Poland Dies in a Plane Crash

13»

Posts

  • Saint MadnessSaint Madness Registered User
    edited April 2010
    MattSantos wrote: »
    That gas line thing is a problem for EU. Any of the gas or oil europe wants from Russia goes through Poland and the Ukraine I believe. There was a dispute some months ago over payments and the Ruskies shut down the pipe.
    The EU needs Russia now (ironic isnt it).

    Yep, it's great if Russia wants to bring Europe to its knees it just has to turn off the gas.

  • Gabriel_PittGabriel_Pitt Carrion-Eater Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Perpetual wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    This sounds like the horrible result of a combined series of stupid decisions. :(

    "Hey, let's pack all the important people into one plane, we might save some money!"

    "Hey look thick fog, perfect opportunity to test how well this new flight computer functions in harsh weather!"

    I believe that the ceremony they were all supposed to be attending started at 9:30, the crash happened a little before 9:00. That's why the president apparently was the one who pushed for a landing despite the conditions. Diverting to any other airport would make them hours late.
    Heatwave wrote: »
    But really, what are the odds that this was an assassination?

    As close to zero as to make no nevermind. Like I said before, in order for this to work as an orchestrated event, you'd need a Soviet fog machine to create the weather conditions, Soviet ambulatory trees to get in position for the plane to hit, and Soviet mind control rays to make the president insist they have to land despite the fog.

    Origin ID: Null_Cypher
  • TL DRTL DR Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Guys it's OK, Putin is overseeing the investigation personally.

    eokNV.jpg
  • SynthesisSynthesis Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Guys it's OK, Putin is overseeing the investigation personally.

    Given that the aircraft crashed in, well, Russia, Russia is pretty much obligated to hold at least its own investigation. That's how important aircraft crashes work.

    So, you've got a choice between Militsyia Junior-Sergeant Ivan from the down street, who also enjoys Baking, collecting stamps, and the Russian adaptation of Law & Order or Vladimir Putin.

    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
    Isn't "Your sarcasm makes me wet," the highest compliment an Abh can pay a human?

    Only if said Abh is a member of the nobility.
  • [Tycho?][Tycho?] Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    What do you mean 'no witnesses?' The plane crashed while attempting to land at an airport, it didn't suddenly fall out of the sky midway over the Atlantic.

    No witnesses in that nobody knows why the plane came down. Was it shot down, or was there a bomb, or was the pilot a secret agent? Unlikely, but we have to rely totally on after the fact investigations to find out what happened, which can't always be trusted. If this was purely pilot error its very difficult to prove that conclusively, because nobody lived to tell the tale. Just makes everything a bit more interesting.

    ragesig.jpg

  • japanjapan Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    [Tycho?] wrote: »
    What do you mean 'no witnesses?' The plane crashed while attempting to land at an airport, it didn't suddenly fall out of the sky midway over the Atlantic.

    No witnesses in that nobody knows why the plane came down. Was it shot down, or was there a bomb, or was the pilot a secret agent? Unlikely, but we have to rely totally on after the fact investigations to find out what happened, which can't always be trusted. If this was purely pilot error its very difficult to prove that conclusively, because nobody lived to tell the tale. Just makes everything a bit more interesting.

    o_O

    It came down because it hit trees ahead of the runway attempting an ill-advised landing in heavy fog.

  • PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    kinda waiting till right wing blogs find a way to blame this on obama

  • Gabriel_PittGabriel_Pitt Carrion-Eater Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    [Tycho?] wrote: »
    What do you mean 'no witnesses?' The plane crashed while attempting to land at an airport, it didn't suddenly fall out of the sky midway over the Atlantic.

    No witnesses in that nobody knows why the plane came down. Was it shot down, or was there a bomb, or was the pilot a secret agent? Unlikely, but we have to rely totally on after the fact investigations to find out what happened, which can't always be trusted. If this was purely pilot error its very difficult to prove that conclusively, because nobody lived to tell the tale. Just makes everything a bit more interesting.

    Because you somehow missed it the first time, despite _quoting_ it:
    What do you mean 'no witnesses?' The plane crashed while attempting to land at an airport, it didn't suddenly fall out of the sky midway over the Atlantic.

    Origin ID: Null_Cypher
  • Alfred J. KwakAlfred J. Kwak Registered User
    edited April 2010
    MattSantos wrote: »
    That gas line thing is a problem for EU. Any of the gas or oil europe wants from Russia goes through Poland and the Ukraine I believe. There was a dispute some months ago over payments and the Ruskies shut down the pipe.
    The EU needs Russia now (ironic isnt it).

    Yep, it's great if Russia wants to bring Europe to its knees it just has to turn off the gas.

    Which would bring both down, since Russia heavily depends on the money they get for their gas. It's kinda like another cold war, essentially.

  • Saint MadnessSaint Madness Registered User
    edited April 2010
    MattSantos wrote: »
    That gas line thing is a problem for EU. Any of the gas or oil europe wants from Russia goes through Poland and the Ukraine I believe. There was a dispute some months ago over payments and the Ruskies shut down the pipe.
    The EU needs Russia now (ironic isnt it).

    Yep, it's great if Russia wants to bring Europe to its knees it just has to turn off the gas.

    Which would bring both down, since Russia heavily depends on the money they get for their gas. It's kinda like another cold war, essentially.

    Which is exactly why the idea of a war between Europe and Russia is a fantasy of Tom Clancy and the American right.

  • ElJeffeElJeffe Super Moderator, Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited April 2010
    So Jack Ryan is the president of Poland now, right?

    Riley: "You're a marsupial!"
    Maddie: "I am not!"
    Riley: "You're a marsupial!"
    Maddie: "I am a placental mammal!"
  • HozHoz Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Why would you assume the President was putting pressure on the pilot to land? He wasn't even invited to the main ceremony, he was going to another one.

  • Saint MadnessSaint Madness Registered User
    edited April 2010
    Hoz wrote: »
    Why would you assume the President was putting pressure on the pilot to land? He wasn't even invited to the main ceremony, he was going to another one.

    He did it before apparently in 2008, he had an appointment in Georgia and the pilot was waved off when he went to land the plane because it was too dangerous. Kaczynski ordered him to land anyway and the pilot refused so Kaczynski fired him once they'd landed elsewhere.

    As I've said, he wasn't a nice man.

  • NumiNumi Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Hoz wrote: »
    Why would you assume the President was putting pressure on the pilot to land? He wasn't even invited to the main ceremony, he was going to another one.

    He did it before apparently in 2008, he had an appointment in Georgia and the pilot was waved off when he went to land the plane because it was too dangerous. Kaczynski ordered him to land anyway and the pilot refused so Kaczynski fired him once they'd landed elsewhere.

    As I've said, he wasn't a nice man.

    There was some noise floating around about Kaczynski looking to attend the ceremony uninvited, he was looking to crash it if you will.

  • SynthesisSynthesis Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Numi wrote: »
    Hoz wrote: »
    Why would you assume the President was putting pressure on the pilot to land? He wasn't even invited to the main ceremony, he was going to another one.

    He did it before apparently in 2008, he had an appointment in Georgia and the pilot was waved off when he went to land the plane because it was too dangerous. Kaczynski ordered him to land anyway and the pilot refused so Kaczynski fired him once they'd landed elsewhere.

    As I've said, he wasn't a nice man.

    There was some noise floating around about Kaczynski looking to attend the ceremony uninvited, he was looking to crash it if you will.

    ...most inappropriate CSI opening. Ever.
    MattSantos wrote: »
    That gas line thing is a problem for EU. Any of the gas or oil europe wants from Russia goes through Poland and the Ukraine I believe. There was a dispute some months ago over payments and the Ruskies shut down the pipe.
    The EU needs Russia now (ironic isnt it).

    It's not just Russia, in the EU's defense. It's the entire CIS. Like the United States, Western Europe decided to take the early 90s as their lunch break, and let the Soviet Republics that weren't full of mostly white people (like Estonia or Lithuania) fend for themselves. As a result was the formation of new cooperative economic agreements between Russia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, and the other neighbors. They depend on eachother, and the CIS in turn depends on the EU. And vice versa.

    Countries like Georgia and the Baltic Republics were excluded either immediately or shortly after or refused to participate. That's why their economic standing is radically different.

    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
    Isn't "Your sarcasm makes me wet," the highest compliment an Abh can pay a human?

    Only if said Abh is a member of the nobility.
  • NumiNumi Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    The Baltic sea Nord Stream and the Black sea South Stream pipelines can be seen as a direct response to that problem though so there are things in the work that will bypass several of the eastern European trouble spots.

  • SynthesisSynthesis Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Numi wrote: »
    The Baltic sea Nord Stream and the Black sea South Stream pipelines can be seen as a direct response to that problem though so there are things in the work that will bypass several of the eastern European trouble spots.

    And into potential Baltic trouble spots. Whee.

    But no, their reasoning makes sense. Though if it'll stop the rapid shrinking of the Baltic Republic's economies by itself is another matter. And competition is still fierce.

    More on topic, Pres. Medvedev's letter to Bronislaw Komorowski (acting President of Poland?) has been translated finally. For some reason, a lot of the translations seem to suck.
    “It was with profound and sincere shock and empathy, that I and all Russian citizens learned about the tragedy that occurred, the death in a plane crash near Smolensk of President of Poland Lech Kaczynski, his spouse, and members of a large Polish delegation traveling to commemorative events in Katyn.

    I have given instructions to conduct a thorough investigation into the causes of the disaster, engaging in full and close cooperation with the Polish authorities.

    Russia shares the grief and mourning of Poland.

    Please convey my sincere condolences to the Polish people and my words of compassion and support to the families and friends of the victims.”

    And, of course, people are wondering more and more how this'll effect the party rivalries in Warsaw, given that Kacyznski was an independent but made his career in the Polish right to some degree...

    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
    Isn't "Your sarcasm makes me wet," the highest compliment an Abh can pay a human?

    Only if said Abh is a member of the nobility.
  • NumiNumi Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Synthesis wrote: »
    Numi wrote: »
    The Baltic sea Nord Stream and the Black sea South Stream pipelines can be seen as a direct response to that problem though so there are things in the work that will bypass several of the eastern European trouble spots.

    And into potential Baltic trouble spots. Whee.

    But no, their reasoning makes sense. Though if it'll stop the rapid shrinking of the Baltic Republic's economies by itself is another matter. And competition is still fierce.

    More on topic, Pres. Medvedev's letter to Bronislaw Komorowski (acting President of Poland?) has been translated finally. For some reason, a lot of the translations seem to suck.
    “It was with profound and sincere shock and empathy, that I and all Russian citizens learned about the tragedy that occurred, the death in a plane crash near Smolensk of President of Poland Lech Kaczynski, his spouse, and members of a large Polish delegation traveling to commemorative events in Katyn.

    I have given instructions to conduct a thorough investigation into the causes of the disaster, engaging in full and close cooperation with the Polish authorities.

    Russia shares the grief and mourning of Poland.

    Please convey my sincere condolences to the Polish people and my words of compassion and support to the families and friends of the victims.”

    And, of course, people are wondering more and more how this'll effect the party rivalries in Warsaw, given that Kacyznski was an independent but made his career in the Polish right to some degree...

    No, they have at least learned their lesson from the troubles with Ukraine so it will be an offshore pipeline once it leaves Russian soil and only surface once in Germany.

    As for the political situation in Poland the main question is probably if this helps or hinders the PiS when it comes to regaining power, seeing as the BBC profile on Komorowski suggests he would defeat Kaczynski in the upcoming election.

  • SynthesisSynthesis Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Looks like Russian investigators are support the idea of pilot fault, rather than technical error.

    Russia withdrew its fleet of Tu-154 not for safety concerns but because they weren't fuel economic (and they were on the louder side). The aircraft was overhauled in December, and it probably isn't too far to say that there wasn't a better-maintained Tu-154M in the Polish Air Force (or in Poland).

    Add to the past incidents of pilot error/disagreements among the crew, and there seems to be more evidence in favor of this being the fault of the pilot. Of course, that's assuming that other investigations and inspections of the wreckage bring up the same response--which I do think they will.

    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
    Isn't "Your sarcasm makes me wet," the highest compliment an Abh can pay a human?

    Only if said Abh is a member of the nobility.
  • KageraKagera Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Yes, all wrapped up nice and neat.

    A little TOO NEAT IF YOU ASK ME!!!

    :winky:

    _J_ wrote:
    If we only allowed pedophiles to be parents, then we would never have to worry about children being left alone, unwatched.
    XBL: Fanatical One AIM: itskagera
  • Alfred J. KwakAlfred J. Kwak Registered User
    edited April 2010
    So, this airport refused to give landing permission and redirected the flight because the fog made it impossible to see anything, Kaczynski apparently forced his pilot to try to land there anyway (which he is said to have done once before already), during the fourth (!) attempt the plane hit some trees 300m from the landing strip, crashed and burned, and everyone on board died.

  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Kagera wrote: »
    Yes, all wrapped up nice and neat.

    A little TOO NEAT IF YOU ASK ME!!!

    :winky:

    9/11 Strikes Again!

    freefallagent.jpg
  • Saint MadnessSaint Madness Registered User
    edited April 2010
    So, this airport refused to give landing permission and redirected the flight because the fog made it impossible to see anything, Kaczynski apparently forced his pilot to try to land there anyway (which he is said to have done once before already), during the fourth (!) attempt the plane hit some trees 300m from the landing strip, crashed and burned, and everyone on board died.

    That seems to be the bones of it yes.

    Though reading some media coverage yesterday you'd be forgiven for thinking that Russian tanks were rolling into Warsaw....

  • Saint MadnessSaint Madness Registered User
    edited April 2010
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Kagera wrote: »
    Yes, all wrapped up nice and neat.

    A little TOO NEAT IF YOU ASK ME!!!

    :winky:

    9/11 Strikes Again!

    TREEES DON'T CAUSE PLANES TO EXPLODE! WAKE UP SHEEPLE!!!!

  • LanlaornLanlaorn Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    I just don't understand how the fog even matters, in the United States at least Air Traffic Controllers know the current position, speed and direction of all planes in the air 'cause, you know, velocity is a vector. I'd like to assume that the Russian airport knew that there was a forest next to it, too.

    Fog or no fog, they should have been able to land based on instruments alone. Wtf happened? I assumed some kind of technical error (likely computational or false reading) and I read elsewhere that the pilot was pretty damn experienced.

  • SynthesisSynthesis Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Kagera wrote: »
    Yes, all wrapped up nice and neat.

    A little TOO NEAT IF YOU ASK ME!!!

    :winky:

    9/11 Strikes Again!

    TREEES DON'T CAUSE PLANES TO EXPLODE! WAKE UP SHEEPLE!!!!

    It (for the most part) rules out a disastrous mechanical failure on the part of the aircraft itself, leaving pilot error or other human mishap.

    I guess, technically, it doesn't rule out that someone caused the plane itself to explode via Soviet Death Ray gun (what, your country's air defense forces don't have one?) or the Count Chocula theory either.

    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
    Isn't "Your sarcasm makes me wet," the highest compliment an Abh can pay a human?

    Only if said Abh is a member of the nobility.
13»
Sign In or Register to comment.