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Avengers have assembled! (pretty much just the Marvel movie thread now with some comics)

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Posts

  • Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Olivaw wrote: »
    jeepguy wrote: »
    Deadfall wrote: »
    Wait wait wait.

    Punisher: Warzone was completely terrible. I mean, it went beyond so-terrible-it's-now-a-comedy terrible. In fact, I voted for it to be best comedy of the year.

    Yeah, but compare P:W, which is agreeably the worst marvel studios release, to Hulk (not incredible), The Punisher (travolta), or Daredevil (which I honestly loved, but that's me)

    Hey! I kinda liked Thomas Jane's Punisher. It was nice and gritty, still kinda human. Ang Lee's Hulk wasn't...terrible. Daredevil. Well, lets just say that Daredevil was much better as a Rifftrax.

    I have been reading Punisher comics since I was a kid. The Punisher is my favorite comic book character.


    The Thomas Jane portrayal was the best of the three Punisher films to date, for all it's storyline issues. War Zone was utter shit and made me sad. The script was so awful Jane wouldn't touch it.

    It makes me sad that you say such things

    Because Punisher: War Zone was everything that I wanted from a Punisher movie and everything that the Thomas Jane Punisher failed to deliver

    Punisher War Zone reminded me of the comics as they got shitty towards the 90's and nothing like the character as he was when Garth Ennis made Castle interesting again.

  • AtomikaAtomika YOU ARE COMPLETELY DISREGARDING THE LABOR THEORY OF VALUE YOU ARE A BARNACLERegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Warcry wrote: »
    Whedon directing The Avengers has lowered the potential of me seeing it to like maybe 10%.

    The man has absolutely no outstanding talent.

    How can one person be so demonstrably wrong?

    Is your sky not blue?

    jeepguy wrote:
    Punisher War Zone reminded me of the comics as they got shitty towards the 90's and nothing like the character as he was when Garth Ennis made Castle interesting again.

    Up front, I've never read the Ennis run on Punisher, which I've heard good things about. However, the Punisher has never been a particularly deep character. He's basically a riff on Batman, but without all the moral quandary and high-concept villains, which leaves a writer with little to go on.

    "So what's this guy's deal? He wants revenge?"

    "Yeah, basically. Oh, and to punish."

    "And he does it by just killing everyone he thinks is a bad guy in a constant parade of bloody violence?"

    "Pretty much."


    As a character, he's kind of flat. Which is why Punisher: War Zone does just about the only thing you can do with a non-origin Punisher tale: keep him off-screen until killin' is called for. Is War Zone a particularly good movie? No, but Lexi Alexander at least understood the character's limitations, whereas the Tom Jane movie turned the Punisher into a maudlin crybaby (as well as doing just about everything else wrong). Stevenson's Frank Castle just walks up calmly to people and blows their face off with a shotgun. That's the Punisher. The tone may be campy, but at least it's horror-campy, and that's really what the movie plays as: an inverted horror movie, where the silent mysterious killer who only pops out at the scariest moments is actually the hero, and everyone running for their life deserves to die.

    You know how people say it's hard to write for Superman because there's no physical threat he can't overcome? The Punisher has the same problem; there's no physical threat that he can't just shoot, impale, or chainsaw his way out of. And that, just like Superman, gives you one of two options when telling a story: keep him offscreen until the beatdowns are called for, or make the threat psychological or personal. In War Zone, you get a little from column A and a little from column B. Unfortunately again for Punisher writers, Frank Castle doesn't have the delicate moral imperatives that good 'ol Clark Kent does. Frank Castle just has two settings: murder, and mass murder. What's more, that's the answer to any psychological or personal threat to him as well as physical threats. He's just a murder machine.

    So don't take this as an impassioned defense of War Zone. All I'm saying is that there might not be a better version of Punisher than what we've got.

  • AvicusAvicus Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Scalfin wrote: »
    I'd say that it's less a fad than a cash-out. They've built up all these properties, and you can only make remakes so frequently.

    Maybe that's a better phrasing: cash-out.

    Batman rebooted well enough with not all that much time between continuities, as did the Norton Hulk movie. But yeah, you can only squeeze so much blood from those franchises before the public just stops caring.

    "Didn't we already see Spider-Man 3?"

    "No, dad, this is Spectacular Spider-Man 3."

    "Oh. Is Venom in this one?"

    "No, had has his own movie."

    "Right. Spider-Man 3."

    "No, Venom: The Movie."

    "Oh. Well, you kids just go. I'm taking a nap."

    Just wait until Green Lantern comes out and everyone is like oh yea, I remember that guy from Wolverine but he had different powers then.

    Having Ryan Reynolds as both Deadpool and Hal Jordan is just a bit weird (in a good way though since everyone loves them some more Ryan Reynolds).

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  • ScooterScooter Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    As far as non-comic geeks are concerned he was in Wolverine for about 5 seconds, they won't remember him.

  • AddaAdda Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Yeah if you want to easily remember him from a comic book movie then just look at blade trinity.

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  • AtomikaAtomika YOU ARE COMPLETELY DISREGARDING THE LABOR THEORY OF VALUE YOU ARE A BARNACLERegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Adda wrote: »
    Yeah if you want to easily remember him from a comic book movie then just look at blade trinity.

    That's a worse idea than watching Wolverine. You've exchanged a slap to the face for a bazooka to the sack.

  • RentRent I'm always right Fuckin' deal with itRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Feral wrote: »

    Marvel learned their lesson well from the Image debacle in giving creators more credit (and royalties) but I don't know about Disney either way. Is Disney a good company for artists and writers to work for?

    Again, Pixar. I think Disney really learned their lesson on how to treat your creative people and why you shouldn't exploit an IP just because you can
    Warcry wrote: »
    Whedon directing The Avengers has lowered the potential of me seeing it to like maybe 10%.

    The man has absolutely no outstanding talent.

    Don't really see how you could say that since Whedon made one of the best superhero-related things ever, but all right

  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    It'll be like seven to ten years before Marvel gets those back to do as their own.

    From what I understand, as long as those studios have a movie in any stage of production, those licenses never expire. It's why Fox has new Daredevil and Fantastic Four movies in the works.
    Damn. I hope whoever agreed to that deal at Marvel got fired.

    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • EchoEcho staring is caring Super Moderator, Moderator mod
    edited April 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    It'll be like seven to ten years before Marvel gets those back to do as their own.

    From what I understand, as long as those studios have a movie in any stage of production, those licenses never expire. It's why Fox has new Daredevil and Fantastic Four movies in the works.
    Damn. I hope whoever agreed to that deal at Marvel got fired.

    Yarly. Alan Moore is still royally pissed about the Watchmen deal.

  • darkmayodarkmayo Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Echo wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    It'll be like seven to ten years before Marvel gets those back to do as their own.

    From what I understand, as long as those studios have a movie in any stage of production, those licenses never expire. It's why Fox has new Daredevil and Fantastic Four movies in the works.
    Damn. I hope whoever agreed to that deal at Marvel got fired.

    Yarly. Alan Moore is still royally pissed about the Watchmen deal.

    Alan Moore has more pressing concerns... like stopping small animals from nesting in his beard.

  • ZampanovZampanov You May Not Go Home Until Tonight Has Been MagicalRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Warcry wrote: »
    Whedon directing The Avengers has lowered the potential of me seeing it to like maybe 10%.

    The man has absolutely no outstanding talent.

    How can one person be so demonstrably wrong?

    Is your sky not blue?

    jeepguy wrote:
    Punisher War Zone reminded me of the comics as they got shitty towards the 90's and nothing like the character as he was when Garth Ennis made Castle interesting again.

    Up front, I've never read the Ennis run on Punisher, which I've heard good things about. However, the Punisher has never been a particularly deep character. He's basically a riff on Batman, but without all the moral quandary and high-concept villains, which leaves a writer with little to go on.

    "So what's this guy's deal? He wants revenge?"

    "Yeah, basically. Oh, and to punish."

    "And he does it by just killing everyone he thinks is a bad guy in a constant parade of bloody violence?"

    "Pretty much."


    As a character, he's kind of flat. Which is why Punisher: War Zone does just about the only thing you can do with a non-origin Punisher tale: keep him off-screen until killin' is called for. Is War Zone a particularly good movie? No, but Lexi Alexander at least understood the character's limitations, whereas the Tom Jane movie turned the Punisher into a maudlin crybaby (as well as doing just about everything else wrong). Stevenson's Frank Castle just walks up calmly to people and blows their face off with a shotgun. That's the Punisher. The tone may be campy, but at least it's horror-campy, and that's really what the movie plays as: an inverted horror movie, where the silent mysterious killer who only pops out at the scariest moments is actually the hero, and everyone running for their life deserves to die.

    You know how people say it's hard to write for Superman because there's no physical threat he can't overcome? The Punisher has the same problem; there's no physical threat that he can't just shoot, impale, or chainsaw his way out of. And that, just like Superman, gives you one of two options when telling a story: keep him offscreen until the beatdowns are called for, or make the threat psychological or personal. In War Zone, you get a little from column A and a little from column B. Unfortunately again for Punisher writers, Frank Castle doesn't have the delicate moral imperatives that good 'ol Clark Kent does. Frank Castle just has two settings: murder, and mass murder. What's more, that's the answer to any psychological or personal threat to him as well as physical threats. He's just a murder machine.

    So don't take this as an impassioned defense of War Zone. All I'm saying is that there might not be a better version of Punisher than what we've got.

    What Garth Ennis does to fix your problem is make sure everyone knows that Castle's not a hero, or even a person anymore, really. He's a force of nature. His character is somewhat simplistic on purpose. The part where the writing gets deeper usually isn't with his character, it's with the characters/villains created around him and the situations that come about when Castle is introduced to them. It's more of a meditation on violence and crime than campy revenge flick stuff (although there's a bit of that too, and even that is done better than both movies, imo).

    You should check out Garth Ennis's Punisher: Max run. The Marvel Knights run (Welcome Back, Frank etc) still has some of the camp that Garth likes to play around with. He doesn't get super serious until Max. It's really fucking good.

    And to put this back on topic: I still really want to see that version of the Punisher done correctly in the movies. Jane did a good job as Punisher, but the story and characters around him (read: the important part) were dogshit.

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  • RentRent I'm always right Fuckin' deal with itRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    darkmayo wrote: »
    Echo wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    It'll be like seven to ten years before Marvel gets those back to do as their own.

    From what I understand, as long as those studios have a movie in any stage of production, those licenses never expire. It's why Fox has new Daredevil and Fantastic Four movies in the works.
    Damn. I hope whoever agreed to that deal at Marvel got fired.

    Yarly. Alan Moore is still royally pissed about the Watchmen deal.

    Alan Moore has more pressing concerns... like stopping small animals from nesting in his beard.

    As much of a genius he is, and as much as I love Watchmen, Moore's kind of a huge dick, especially considering how good the Watchmen movie is

  • amateurhouramateurhour Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    I look at Moore a lot like I look at Lucas.

    He's incredibly talented (I'm sorry, Lucas may be batshit crazy but he crafted one of the most intriguing universes in fiction) but doesn't need to have full control of films based on his work.

    If Moore got to make movies based on his comic books, they would be about one money shot away from a snuff film, more vulgar than a Kevin Smith movie, and probably show kids the exact steps on how to buy, and use tar heroin.

    I love the work, but hate the man.

    Also, on a side note, I finally read Wanted after seeing the film, and I've got to say, I'm a bigger fan of the direction they went for the movie, but honestly it was one of those comics that should have just never been made in the first place. It was an entertaining read, but it was all over the place and didn't fit in well with Hollywood.

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  • ZampanovZampanov You May Not Go Home Until Tonight Has Been MagicalRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Rent wrote: »
    darkmayo wrote: »
    Echo wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    It'll be like seven to ten years before Marvel gets those back to do as their own.

    From what I understand, as long as those studios have a movie in any stage of production, those licenses never expire. It's why Fox has new Daredevil and Fantastic Four movies in the works.
    Damn. I hope whoever agreed to that deal at Marvel got fired.

    Yarly. Alan Moore is still royally pissed about the Watchmen deal.

    Alan Moore has more pressing concerns... like stopping small animals from nesting in his beard.

    As much of a genius he is, and as much as I love Watchmen, Moore's kind of a huge dick, especially considering how good the Watchmen movie is

    Eh, he's just really sensitive about his stuff being messed with, so he's really really critical of it. Watchmen is really only good compared to the abominations that have been made of his work before it.

    And RE: amateurhour:

    It's less about him wanting to control all his stuff and more about him wanting his work to be adapted to the screen well, if they're going to do it. He doesn't think he could do it himself, he thinks it's possible to do it well and that all they do is take out all the important parts and inject Hollywood bullshit. And for the most part, that's exactly what happens.

    As for Wanted, yes. The peice of crap movie is 10x better than the unbelievably peice of crap comic. It's angry teenage fanservice at its absolute worst. Millar should stick to the Ultimate universe.

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  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Also, on a side note, I finally read Wanted after seeing the film, and I've got to say, I'm a bigger fan of the direction they went for the movie, but honestly it was one of those comics that should have just never been made in the first place. It was an entertaining read, but it was all over the place and didn't fit in well with Hollywood.
    There was no way to make Wanted into a movie and retain any significant part of the actual comic. We're talking about a protagonist who goes around murdering innocents and raping people for kicks. No way that's getting greenlighted in Hollywood.

    I thought the Wanted comic was basically grimdark wankery. The supervillain as protagonist has been done a lot better, such as in Soon I will be Invincible, without making the bad guy a totally loathsome individual.
    Zampanov wrote: »
    As for Wanted, yes. The peice of crap movie is 10x better than the unbelievably peice of crap comic. It's angry teenage fanservice at its absolute worst. Millar should stick to the Ultimate universe.
    A lot of the characters in the Ultimate universe are borderline psychos. Cap's an asshole. Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch are banging. Hank Pym is completely loathsome and whiney. And the Hulk is a rapist and cannibal. I like Ultimates, but it seems like Millar is a one-trick pony: let's make all my characters unlikeable.

    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • Irond WillIrond Will WARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!! Cambridge. MASuper Moderator, Moderator mod
    edited April 2010
    so the same guy who plays the Human Torch is also going to play Captain America?

    He was fine in Push I guess. And Sunshine

    Wqdwp8l.png
  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    The Wanted movie was horrid.

    Even the effects and shit looked awful

  • syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products regular
    edited April 2010
    Zampanov wrote: »
    Eh, he's just really sensitive about his stuff being messed with, so he's really really critical of it. Watchmen is really only good compared to the abominations that have been made of his work before it.

    V for Vendetta was awesome, and so was watchmen. Moore can just let it go.

  • ZampanovZampanov You May Not Go Home Until Tonight Has Been MagicalRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    syndalis wrote: »
    Zampanov wrote: »
    Eh, he's just really sensitive about his stuff being messed with, so he's really really critical of it. Watchmen is really only good compared to the abominations that have been made of his work before it.

    V for Vendetta was awesome, and so was watchmen. Moore can just let it go.

    As a movie I am willing to hear the argument that V for Vendetta is a good action flick. It's just a piss poor adaptation. Watchmen was better as an adaptation, but they fucked up the characterization of Ozymandias and they fucked up the ending (no, not because there was no squid).

    He's allowed to be picky about the critiques of adaptations of his own work, because his work is really good. In my opinion, at least.

    For the most part, he's not even out there yelling about stuff. People ask him what his opinion is, and he gives it. For the most part all he wants to do is ignore them, and if people would let him, you'd never hear his opinion about adaptations of his stuff.

    Edit:
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Zampanov wrote: »
    As for Wanted, yes. The peice of crap movie is 10x better than the unbelievably peice of crap comic. It's angry teenage fanservice at its absolute worst. Millar should stick to the Ultimate universe.
    A lot of the characters in the Ultimate universe are borderline psychos. Cap's an asshole. Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch are banging. Hank Pym is completely loathsome and whiney. And the Hulk is a rapist and cannibal. I like Ultimates, but it seems like Millar is a one-trick pony: let's make all my characters unlikeable.

    Cap's not an asshole, I think I had that convo with someone in Graphic Violence (maybe it was even you!). And I actually really like the Hulk characterization because it really takes that idea that it's Banner's dark primal side going wild and runs with it (he never actually rapes anyone, just fyi). Also, Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch aren't banging until Jeph Loeb takes over. Millar just had them being creepily close. It was supposed to be ambiguous, and then Loeb decided "LOL INCEST IS BEST I AM A GREAT WRITER!"

    Yeah, Ultimates was a harder-edged version of the real universe, but it actually had interesting characters/story while Millar was writing it. Just because it's "dark version" doesn't mean it's instantly crap. Wanted was crap because the story was crap.

    I'll have the Cap discussion in PMs if you want, but I don't wanna break that one out here in the thread.

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    PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
  • WarcryWarcry Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Rent wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »

    Marvel learned their lesson well from the Image debacle in giving creators more credit (and royalties) but I don't know about Disney either way. Is Disney a good company for artists and writers to work for?

    Again, Pixar. I think Disney really learned their lesson on how to treat your creative people and why you shouldn't exploit an IP just because you can
    Warcry wrote: »
    Whedon directing The Avengers has lowered the potential of me seeing it to like maybe 10%.

    The man has absolutely no outstanding talent.

    Don't really see how you could say that since Whedon made one of the best superhero-related things ever, but all right

    Explain.

    Warcry616.png
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    syndalis wrote: »
    Zampanov wrote: »
    Eh, he's just really sensitive about his stuff being messed with, so he's really really critical of it. Watchmen is really only good compared to the abominations that have been made of his work before it.

    V for Vendetta was awesome, and so was watchmen. Moore can just let it go.
    Yeah, what more did he want with those 2 movies? They were pretty true to the source material, with some updating to get rid of various anachronisms.

    I think Moore is just a cranky old man who can't be made happy no matter what.

    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • TomantaTomanta Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    syndalis wrote: »
    Zampanov wrote: »
    Eh, he's just really sensitive about his stuff being messed with, so he's really really critical of it. Watchmen is really only good compared to the abominations that have been made of his work before it.

    V for Vendetta was awesome, and so was watchmen. Moore can just let it go.
    Yeah, what more did he want with those 2 movies? They were pretty true to the source material, with some updating to get rid of various anachronisms.

    I think Moore is just a cranky old man who can't be made happy no matter what.

    To be fair to Moore, the one that really sent him on the anti-hollywood kick was League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. Which was awful.

    camo_sig2.png
  • CherrnCherrn Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    I think the Watchmen movie has legitimately great moments, and awesome cinematography for the most part, but in some sections it almost completely misses the point of the comic; the dialogue is too snappy, the pacing is off and most of the fight scenes are completely cringeworthy in hindsight. I don't have a problem with the slow motion, but people kicking each other across a room and punching holes in walls has no business in Watchmen.

    Also, yeah, the ending is completely lacking in gravitas.

    All creature will die and all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai.
  • NostregarNostregar Registered User
    edited April 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    syndalis wrote: »
    Zampanov wrote: »
    Eh, he's just really sensitive about his stuff being messed with, so he's really really critical of it. Watchmen is really only good compared to the abominations that have been made of his work before it.

    V for Vendetta was awesome, and so was watchmen. Moore can just let it go.
    Yeah, what more did he want with those 2 movies? They were pretty true to the source material, with some updating to get rid of various anachronisms.

    I think Moore is just a cranky old man who can't be made happy no matter what.

    I liked the V for Vendetta movie, but it was a pretty crappy adaptation of the book. I don't really think I'd call it true to the source material - "inspired by", "informed by", or "based on" perhaps, but not "true to".

    I felt like the way the movie characterized V was way different than the book.

    Spoiler:
  • Fuzzy Cumulonimbus CloudFuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    The Marvel App on iPad makes me so excited. I considered running out the Apple Store with that iPad, but alas, jailtime is not something I want. The app is amazing, and you can click panel by panel, or still look page by page if you like the way comics read as a whole.

    Digitizing comics is a great step for people like me, who never collect and only buy the massive books at a discount book store 10 years later. :P

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  • Salvation122Salvation122 Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Echo wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    It'll be like seven to ten years before Marvel gets those back to do as their own.

    From what I understand, as long as those studios have a movie in any stage of production, those licenses never expire. It's why Fox has new Daredevil and Fantastic Four movies in the works.
    Damn. I hope whoever agreed to that deal at Marvel got fired.

    Yarly. Alan Moore is still royally pissed about the Watchmen deal.

    Uhm. Relevance? Watchmen was a DC property.

    sig.png
  • Salvation122Salvation122 Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Rent wrote: »
    Don't really see how you could say that since Whedon made one of the best superhero-related things ever, but all right

    Whedon's pretty good at writing musicals and pretty fucking terrible at anything else

    sig.png
  • ZampanovZampanov You May Not Go Home Until Tonight Has Been MagicalRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    The Marvel App on iPad makes me so excited. I considered running out the Apple Store with that iPad, but alas, jailtime is not something I want. The app is amazing, and you can click panel by panel, or still look page by page if you like the way comics read as a whole.

    Digitizing comics is a great step for people like me, who never collect and only buy the massive books at a discount book store 10 years later. :P

    Now all they have to do is come out with a tablet that I actually want.

    Maybe someone will make a good color e-ink tablet. Now that I'd buy comics for.

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  • amateurhouramateurhour Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    I feel like Millar walks a really fine line between trying to destroy heroes, which Moore has said he enjoys doing, and making them more human and believable.

    I hated his Wanted series, but I really enjoyed what he did with the Ultimates. If I had to envision an insane alcoholic billionaire playboy or a thawed out boy scout that might be just a little racist, his version is how I would see it.


    Also, on a side note, don't forget about the ComiXology app if you're interested in all of this. It's what Marvel leased to make their app, but it has Image, Dark Horse, Devil's Due, and a bunch of other labels. They do trades for 9.99, singles for 1.99, and they usually run anywhere between 6 to 12 months behind the current issue on any given series.

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  • deadonthestreetdeadonthestreet Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    The problem with adaptions of Moore's comics are they are based on Moore's comic books so right off you have a problem with the quality of the source material. So then you try and change it to make it work on film and it just ends up making it worse. I mean you can talk about it missing the point but when the point is the writer has a rape fetish and is a pedophile and that informs most of what he writes, well missing the point is ok with me.

  • ZampanovZampanov You May Not Go Home Until Tonight Has Been MagicalRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    The problem with adaptions of Moore's comics are they are based on Moore's comic books so right off you have a problem with the quality of the source material. So then you try and change it to make it work on film and it just ends up making it worse. I mean you can talk about it missing the point but when the point is the writer has a rape fetish and is a pedophile and that informs most of what he writes, well missing the point is ok with me.

    I feel like the only way someone could come to that conclusion is if they haven't actually read any of the things that have been adapted so far. Maybe he's written some stuff that would lead you to that analysis that I haven't read. When comparing your post to his work that I've read so far (Swamp Thing, Watchmen, V for Vendetta, Top Ten) the things you just said are somewhat bewildering.

    I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt, but I dunno man.

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  • amateurhouramateurhour Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Zampanov wrote: »
    The problem with adaptions of Moore's comics are they are based on Moore's comic books so right off you have a problem with the quality of the source material. So then you try and change it to make it work on film and it just ends up making it worse. I mean you can talk about it missing the point but when the point is the writer has a rape fetish and is a pedophile and that informs most of what he writes, well missing the point is ok with me.

    I feel like the only way someone could come to that conclusion is if they haven't actually read any of the things that have been adapted so far. Maybe he's written some stuff that would lead you to that analysis that I haven't read. When comparing your post to the his work that I've read so far (Swamp Thing, Watchmen, V for Vendetta, Top Ten) the things you just said are somewhat bewildering.

    I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt, but I dunno man.

    Moore puts rape in every one of his stories. The League, V, Watchmen all had rape scenes. His point is that heroes are bullshit and more fucked up than the average person, have a god complex, and should all be hated and feared rather than worshiped. He's publicly said that he hated the golden age idea of comics where heroes gave us hope.

    I dunno about the other stuff, but he's a dirty man.

    Here's what I do...
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  • durandal4532durandal4532 Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    I don't know, I guess you can not like Moore's writing... but I think you have to be a pretty big silly goose to think pedophilia is a big portion of like... anything he's ever done.


    Also I guess you'd have to have pretty bad taste to really dislike all his work. I guess.

  • syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products regular
    edited April 2010
    I don't know, I guess you can not like Moore's writing... but I think you have to be a pretty big silly goose to think pedophilia is a big portion of like... anything he's ever done.


    Also I guess you'd have to have pretty bad taste to really dislike all his work. I guess.

    alan Moore's Lost Girls is a bit on the edge for most.

  • amateurhouramateurhour Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    It's not that I don't like his work, or his writing, or even the idea he's trying to convey about super heroes.

    Some of his stuff is pretty damn good. Watchmen was a great read, although a little too wordy at some points, especially for a graphic novel.

    I'm just not a fan of the extremes that he goes to when he makes his point.

    Here's what I do...
    The Vac - My Science Fiction Epic
    Fortune Pancakes - My Gag-A-Day Comic
  • ZampanovZampanov You May Not Go Home Until Tonight Has Been MagicalRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Zampanov wrote: »
    The problem with adaptions of Moore's comics are they are based on Moore's comic books so right off you have a problem with the quality of the source material. So then you try and change it to make it work on film and it just ends up making it worse. I mean you can talk about it missing the point but when the point is the writer has a rape fetish and is a pedophile and that informs most of what he writes, well missing the point is ok with me.

    I feel like the only way someone could come to that conclusion is if they haven't actually read any of the things that have been adapted so far. Maybe he's written some stuff that would lead you to that analysis that I haven't read. When comparing your post to the his work that I've read so far (Swamp Thing, Watchmen, V for Vendetta, Top Ten) the things you just said are somewhat bewildering.

    I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt, but I dunno man.

    Moore puts rape in every one of his stories. The League, V, Watchmen all had rape scenes. His point is that heroes are bullshit and more fucked up than the average person, have a god complex, and should all be hated and feared rather than worshiped. He's publicly said that he hated the golden age idea of comics where heroes gave us hope.

    I dunno about the other stuff, but he's a dirty man.

    Didn't read League, but the other two didn't have rape scenes. There was one almost rape in both V and Watchmen, true. It's not exactly the most important moment in V at all (priest wanted to rape Evey but doesn't get to, the priest was supposed to be a pretty fucked individual) and the almost rape in Watchmen is very important to the overall Comedian/Silk Spectre storyline. It wasn't just "Let's give this character some edge" bullshit like some other writers have done.

    Yeah, he likes to destroy the hero thing. The golden/silver ages were definitely more about human ideals personified into these characters that were created. When done well, I like those stories too. Moore just took those same characters and made them more complex, more human, and wrote them into these tragedies that better reflected the human condition, and some of the political/social events of the time.

    I mean I could understand if you didn't think he was amazing, or if you're just not into his type of storytelling, but I really don't get how anyone who's read this stuff can say he's actually bad or "WOOHOO I AM ALL ABOUT SOME RAPE" because if that's all you got, I feel confident in suggesting that you're bad at reading.

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  • deadonthestreetdeadonthestreet Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    I don't know, I guess you can not like Moore's writing... but I think you have to be a pretty big silly goose to think pedophilia is a big portion of like... anything he's ever done.


    Also I guess you'd have to have pretty bad taste to really dislike all his work. I guess.

    Well, I mean if the rape of underaged girls in Watchmen and The Killing Joke and V aren't enough for you there's this. It's a recurring theme in his work.

    e: I want to point out that I don't really dislike Moore most of the time. I mean I own the Absolute Watchmen and I've read it multiple times, and I've read several of his other works and they are mostly pretty ok.

  • durandal4532durandal4532 Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    I don't know, I guess you can not like Moore's writing... but I think you have to be a pretty big silly goose to think pedophilia is a big portion of like... anything he's ever done.


    Also I guess you'd have to have pretty bad taste to really dislike all his work. I guess.

    Well, I mean if the rape of underaged girls in Watchmen and The Killing Joke and V aren't enough for you there's this. It's a recurring theme in his work.

    Nabokov: Pedophile.

    Also yeah I mean, isn't the whole point of Lost Girls to examine the weird undercurrent of sexuality in a lot of famous children's literature? And isn't the whole deal in V a pretty obvious dig at the Catholic church molesting people? I don't know, it seems like you're reaching in an effort to justify your really bad taste seems like.

  • DarkWarriorDarkWarrior __BANNED USERS
    edited April 2010
    Who is underage and raped in Watchmen?

    ...it's in the shape of a giant c**k.
  • ZampanovZampanov You May Not Go Home Until Tonight Has Been MagicalRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    I don't know, I guess you can not like Moore's writing... but I think you have to be a pretty big silly goose to think pedophilia is a big portion of like... anything he's ever done.


    Also I guess you'd have to have pretty bad taste to really dislike all his work. I guess.

    Well, I mean if the rape of underaged girls in Watchmen and The Killing Joke and V aren't enough for you there's this. It's a recurring theme in his work.

    e: I want to point out that I don't really dislike Moore most of the time. I mean I own the Absolute Watchmen and I've read it multiple times, and I've read several of his other works and they are mostly pretty ok.

    Which underage girls in Watchmen and the Killing Joke? V had an attempted one, didn't work out. None of the situations I can think of that you might be talking about stood out as exploitative in any way. There's a big difference between incorporating something like that for the purposes of the narrative and honestly looking at humanity's dark side, and throwing it in for knee-jerk shock value.

    If you can't tell the difference, that's one thing, and I won't eat your lunch for that. If you think that it's never ok to put in a story, alright we'll just have to disagree. If you're just willfully ignoring the literary merit of including things like that in a story, as in you're being disingenuous, then... I dunno... I guess it makes me wanna call you a jerk.

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