As was foretold, we've added advertisements to the forums! If you have questions, or if you encounter any bugs, please visit this thread: https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/240191/forum-advertisement-faq-and-reports-thread/

New comic for Tuesday April 20, 2010

Cold Salmon and HatredCold Salmon and Hatred __BANNED USERS regular
edited April 2010 in Social Entropy++
842982636_LwDfj-L.jpg

Cold Salmon and Hatred on
«13456718

Posts

  • SabreMauSabreMau ネトゲしよう 판다리아Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    I disagree with him on this issue but I still like him. I prefer his opinions on Nicholas Sparks to his opinions on video games.
    I used to like him, back when he was still on TV with Siskel and writing entertaining reviews of 0-star movies. But it seems that nowadays he's just going more and more off the deep end with his reviews/articles, and not in the fun ways.

    SabreMau on
  • MeissnerdMeissnerd Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    the last panel weirds me out a lot

    Meissnerd on
  • SmokeStacksSmokeStacks Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Young guy is wearing slacks and a tucked in polo shirt.

    Yet he has that cool young urban stubble and the "hair in your eyes" haircut.

    I'm so confused.

    SmokeStacks on
  • Dely AppleDely Apple Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    So did Dru win a contest to get put into this comic or

    Dely Apple on
    feets.jpg
  • TossrockTossrock too weird to live too rare to dieRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    it's tucked in ironically

    Tossrock on
    sig.png
  • OrikaeshigitaeOrikaeshigitae Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited April 2010
    the young man in the first panel is getting kicked out of his grandfather's house

    Orikaeshigitae on
  • Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    I still have a lot of respect for Roger Ebert, but I don't think this argument is one that needs to be fought.

    I believe there is art in games. Is the game itself art? I don't know that I would say it is, or that it should be.

    Centipede Damascus on
  • SabreMauSabreMau ネトゲしよう 판다리아Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Young guy is wearing slacks and a tucked in polo shirt.

    Yet he has that cool young urban stubble and the "hair in your eyes" haircut.

    I'm so confused.

    I'm not. That's standard procedure around here.

    SabreMau on
  • DrIanMalcolmDrIanMalcolm Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    That picket fence is only partially built

    DrIanMalcolm on
  • Kuribo's ShoeKuribo's Shoe Kuribo's Stocking North PoleRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    he makes a good point though.

    all told, it's a stupid argument, stoked by people who can't concieve of the fact that something originally conceived as a children's toy could ascend to an artform

    and while very few games can be considered art in the "meaningful expression of feelings" sense, there are examples of such

    Roger Ebert is a grouchy old dude

    Kuribo's Shoe on
    xmassig2.gif
  • TubeTube Registered User admin
    edited April 2010
    Jim I am very disappointed that I came to read your post and it was not about Writing.

    Tube on
  • bsjezzbsjezz Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    i don't know. craftsmen more than artists, i'd say. i think the most convincing argument for games as art blooms from the other end - independant games with a singular creative vision. everyday shooter is art. call of duty 2 is not

    bsjezz on
    sC4Q4nq.jpg
  • Kuribo's ShoeKuribo's Shoe Kuribo's Stocking North PoleRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    bsjezz wrote: »
    i don't know. craftsmen more than artists, i'd say. i think the most convincing argument for games as art blooms from the other end - independant games with a singular creative vision. everyday shooter is art. call of duty 2 is not

    but since when is something painstakingly crafted and taken pride in not art?

    Kuribo's Shoe on
    xmassig2.gif
  • TanolenTanolen Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Ebert sure knows how to stir up the internet.

    Tanolen on
  • SabreMauSabreMau ネトゲしよう 판다리아Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    And I think this is just the Wednesday comic accidentally leaked early. The main site still shows the Monday comic and the Monday newspost.

    SabreMau on
  • TubeTube Registered User admin
    edited April 2010
    he makes a good point though.

    all told, it's a stupid argument, stoked by people who can't concieve of the fact that something originally conceived as a children's toy could ascend to an artform

    and while very few games can be considered art in the "meaningful expression of feelings" sense, there are examples of such

    Roger Ebert is a grouchy old dude

    I admire how well he put his point across, but the problem is that it is manifest that he hasn't played any games. It's like watching the trailer for The Godfather and saying "this is stupid, it's just a dumb crime film"

    Tube on
  • Kuribo's ShoeKuribo's Shoe Kuribo's Stocking North PoleRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    say you have a dude who makes pottery for a living

    do you consider the pottery to be art? even if there are no depictions or designs on the pottery? if the pottery was designed with a utilitarian purpose in mind like storage? where is that line?

    Kuribo's Shoe on
    xmassig2.gif
  • OlivawOlivaw good name, isn't it? the foot of mt fujiRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    I like Roger Ebert! He writes good movie reviews and interesting blog articles

    But he is old, and averse to change, and games are a young medium, and filled with a bunch of very one note experiences

    I can't really blame him for saying games aren't art, but to say they'll never be art is pretty dumb

    This is where the "old" part comes back into play

    Olivaw on
    signature-deffo.jpg
    PSN ID : DetectiveOlivaw | TWITTER | STEAM ID | NEVER FORGET
  • SquallSquall hap cloud Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    yeah my RSS link to the new comic is broken now

    Squall on
  • bsjezzbsjezz Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    bsjezz wrote: »
    i don't know. craftsmen more than artists, i'd say. i think the most convincing argument for games as art blooms from the other end - independant games with a singular creative vision. everyday shooter is art. call of duty 2 is not

    but since when is something painstakingly crafted and taken pride in not art?

    a model car, for example

    you can craft it perfect detail and precision, for months or years, but you're never going to create something more meaningful than the car as it was already, an idea and some parts in a box

    bsjezz on
    sC4Q4nq.jpg
  • Lord DaveLord Dave Grief Causer Bitch Free ZoneRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    This is a pretty stupid argument and I'm not surprised Ebert is still on the wrong end of it

    Lord Dave on
    mkc.png
  • Kuribo's ShoeKuribo's Shoe Kuribo's Stocking North PoleRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    he makes a good point though.

    all told, it's a stupid argument, stoked by people who can't concieve of the fact that something originally conceived as a children's toy could ascend to an artform

    and while very few games can be considered art in the "meaningful expression of feelings" sense, there are examples of such

    Roger Ebert is a grouchy old dude

    I admire how well he put his point across, but the problem is that it is manifest that he hasn't played any games. It's like watching the trailer for The Godfather and saying "this is stupid, it's just a dumb crime film"

    yeah, the problem is he's an intelligent and well spoken man who refuses to even look at the medium he's decrying

    kind of sad, really

    Kuribo's Shoe on
    xmassig2.gif
  • Donkey KongDonkey Kong Putting Nintendo out of business with AI nips Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    SabreMau wrote: »
    I disagree with him on this issue but I still like him. I prefer his opinions on Nicholas Sparks to his opinions on video games.
    I used to like him, back when he was still on TV with Siskel and writing entertaining reviews of 0-star movies. But it seems that nowadays he's just going more and more off the deep end with his reviews/articles, and not in the fun ways.

    He has committed pretty hard to his "games aren't art" argument and I figure, at this point, let him have it. It's not like it really matters if grants the medium legitimacy.

    Sometimes a movie hits a sore spot for him, like Kick-ass or Zoolander, but he's still a pretty good critic. He's one of the few really mainstream guys who will advocate for good scifi. And there are some things he gets. He understood why Transformers 1 was awesome and Transformers 2 was terrible.

    And how can you not love the guy who wrote this:
    "The Last Song" is based on the novel by Nicholas Sparks, who also wrote the screenplay. Sparks recently went on record as saying he is a greater novelist than Cormac McCarthy. This is true in the same sense that I am a better novelist than William Shakespeare. Sparks also said his novels are like Greek Tragedies. This may actually be true. I can't check it out because, tragically, no really bad Greek tragedies have survived. His story here amounts to soft porn for teenage girls, which the acting and the abilities of director Julie Anne Robinson have promoted over its pay scale.
    [...]
    To be sure, I resent the sacrilege Nicholas Sparks commits by mentioning himself in the same sentence as Cormac McCarthy. I would not even allow him to say "Hello, bookstore? This is Nicholas Sparks. Could you send over the new Cormac McCarthy novel?" He should show respect by ordering anonymously.

    Donkey Kong on
    Thousands of hot, local singles are waiting to play at bubbulon.com.
  • TossrockTossrock too weird to live too rare to dieRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Sophomoric.jpg

    Tossrock on
    sig.png
  • bsjezzbsjezz Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    say you have a dude who makes pottery for a living

    do you consider the pottery to be art? even if there are no depictions or designs on the pottery? if the pottery was designed with a utilitarian purpose in mind like storage? where is that line?

    the only way to find out is to see some pottery that's art

    i haven't

    bsjezz on
    sC4Q4nq.jpg
  • Kuribo's ShoeKuribo's Shoe Kuribo's Stocking North PoleRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    bsjezz wrote: »
    bsjezz wrote: »
    i don't know. craftsmen more than artists, i'd say. i think the most convincing argument for games as art blooms from the other end - independant games with a singular creative vision. everyday shooter is art. call of duty 2 is not

    but since when is something painstakingly crafted and taken pride in not art?

    a model car, for example

    you can craft it perfect detail and precision, for months or years, but you're never going to create something more meaningful than the car as it was already, an idea and some parts in a box

    one could argue that putting together a model with skill is an art of its own

    and what about the people who put the parts together? if a guy makes a really good helicopter model for a video game that he's particularly proud of, who's to say that isn't art?

    Kuribo's Shoe on
    xmassig2.gif
  • TanolenTanolen Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    I just find it hard to believe that in 100-200 years if video games are still around that his statement that video games can never be art will still be an accepted stance.

    Tanolen on
  • Kuribo's ShoeKuribo's Shoe Kuribo's Stocking North PoleRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    bsjezz wrote: »
    say you have a dude who makes pottery for a living

    do you consider the pottery to be art? even if there are no depictions or designs on the pottery? if the pottery was designed with a utilitarian purpose in mind like storage? where is that line?

    the only way to find out is to see some pottery that's art

    i haven't

    you must not be looking very hard then

    Kuribo's Shoe on
    xmassig2.gif
  • EndEnd Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Tanolen wrote: »
    Ebert sure knows how to stir up the internet.

    It does seem like it.

    I don't completely disagree on his point of "does it even matter?", but he's lending far more attention to the matter just by commenting on it. Again.

    And when it comes down to it, for me, do video games fulfill the criteria that defines art? I guess they do. Defining art is pretty subjective anyway, and going round and round in circles isn't going to do me a whole lot of good, so I think I'll just go back to what I was doing.

    End on
    I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
    zaleiria-by-lexxy-sig.jpg
  • DrIanMalcolmDrIanMalcolm Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    It's amazing that Ebert is still writing a ridiculous number of things these days considering his physical state

    DrIanMalcolm on
  • TubeTube Registered User admin
    edited April 2010
    he makes a good point though.

    all told, it's a stupid argument, stoked by people who can't concieve of the fact that something originally conceived as a children's toy could ascend to an artform

    and while very few games can be considered art in the "meaningful expression of feelings" sense, there are examples of such

    Roger Ebert is a grouchy old dude

    I admire how well he put his point across, but the problem is that it is manifest that he hasn't played any games. It's like watching the trailer for The Godfather and saying "this is stupid, it's just a dumb crime film"

    yeah, the problem is he's an intelligent and well spoken man who refuses to even look at the medium he's decrying

    kind of sad, really

    It's a problem with the medium though. If I said to Roger Ebert "look, play GTAIV. It's like The Godfather of video games. It's incredible" and he agreed, he wouldn't just play it until the end and then go "wow Tube you were so right, it must be awesome being you. It'd involve me sitting with him going

    "no press A to run. that's the one at the bottom... the... yeah the green one now get into cover that guy has a gun NO DON'T RUN TOWARDS HI- aaaahhhh ok ok no big deal let's start again ok next time you want to hold the right trigger- the one at the back - yeah on the right hand side that's the trigger and then use the left stick to- look let's just watch the cutscenes on youtube"

    Or persuading him to play Planescape Torment and having to have an awkward conversation at The Transcendant One because he picked all the wrong spells.

    Tube on
  • A duck!A duck! Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited April 2010
    It's really because of his physical state that he's writing a ridiculous number of things.

    A duck! on
  • TubeTube Registered User admin
    edited April 2010
    bsjezz wrote: »
    say you have a dude who makes pottery for a living

    do you consider the pottery to be art? even if there are no depictions or designs on the pottery? if the pottery was designed with a utilitarian purpose in mind like storage? where is that line?

    the only way to find out is to see some pottery that's art

    i haven't

    You clearly lack even the most rudimentary knowledge of either pottery or art then.

    Tube on
  • bsjezzbsjezz Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    bsjezz wrote: »
    bsjezz wrote: »
    i don't know. craftsmen more than artists, i'd say. i think the most convincing argument for games as art blooms from the other end - independant games with a singular creative vision. everyday shooter is art. call of duty 2 is not

    but since when is something painstakingly crafted and taken pride in not art?

    a model car, for example

    you can craft it perfect detail and precision, for months or years, but you're never going to create something more meaningful than the car as it was already, an idea and some parts in a box

    one could argue that putting together a model with skill is an art of its own

    and what about the people who put the parts together? if a guy makes a really good helicopter model for a video game that he's particularly proud of, who's to say that isn't art?

    look technical skill and perserverant application of that skill does not an art make. you could just as easily say garbage collection is art. which you could argue, for a certain definition of art, but i'm not interested in that argument. i already understand what art is

    for me art has to be an arrangement of content and stylistic choices which make no sacrifice in communicating their central purpose. art is communication. unless their is some new message to be carried, or an old message to be carried better, it fails to be art. well, at least good art. 'bad art' is a different thing entirely*

    *by that i mean there are special exceptions for truly 'bad art'. it has to be more than a failure to make art. it has to be a very special kind of failure

    bsjezz on
    sC4Q4nq.jpg
  • bsjezzbsjezz Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    bsjezz wrote: »
    say you have a dude who makes pottery for a living

    do you consider the pottery to be art? even if there are no depictions or designs on the pottery? if the pottery was designed with a utilitarian purpose in mind like storage? where is that line?

    the only way to find out is to see some pottery that's art

    i haven't

    You clearly lack even the most rudimentary knowledge of either pottery or art then.

    yeah that was a silly way to say it

    i have seen pottery that's art. in modern art i personally haven't seen any artistic pottery, but i'm sure it exists

    what i meant was more like 'show me some artistic pottery, and i'll show you the difference between that and my cereal bowl'

    bsjezz on
    sC4Q4nq.jpg
  • CalliusCallius Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Craftsmen are not artists
    The things which craftsmen make are not art
    The Sistine Chapel was created by craftsmen
    Therefore, the Sistine Chapel is not art


    Is this correct, bsjezz?

    Callius on
    tonksigblack.png
  • A duck!A duck! Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited April 2010
    he makes a good point though.

    all told, it's a stupid argument, stoked by people who can't concieve of the fact that something originally conceived as a children's toy could ascend to an artform

    and while very few games can be considered art in the "meaningful expression of feelings" sense, there are examples of such

    Roger Ebert is a grouchy old dude

    I admire how well he put his point across, but the problem is that it is manifest that he hasn't played any games. It's like watching the trailer for The Godfather and saying "this is stupid, it's just a dumb crime film"

    yeah, the problem is he's an intelligent and well spoken man who refuses to even look at the medium he's decrying

    kind of sad, really

    It's a problem with the medium though. If I said to Roger Ebert "look, play GTAIV. It's like The Godfather of video games. It's incredible" and he agreed, he wouldn't just play it until the end and then go "wow Tube you were so right, it must be awesome being you. It'd involve me sitting with him going

    "no press A to run. that's the one at the bottom... the... yeah the green one now get into cover that guy has a gun NO DON'T RUN TOWARDS HI- aaaahhhh ok ok no big deal let's start again ok next time you want to hold the right trigger- the one at the back - yeah on the right hand side that's the trigger and then use the left stick to- look let's just watch the cutscenes on youtube"

    Or persuading him to play Planescape Torment and having to have an awkward conversation at The Transcendant One because he picked all the wrong spells.

    I know I would argue that the artistry in games is really in the playing experience and what it evokes. Watching Shadow of the Colossus is actually pretty fucking boring, but playing it, deciding what to do and struggling with the controls (not that they're bad, just that you gotta work dat thing) involves you in a way that you can't get with movies or TV. This is offset by the fact that your narrative is going to be interrupted a shit-ton.

    A duck! on
  • Kuribo's ShoeKuribo's Shoe Kuribo's Stocking North PoleRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    bsjezz wrote: »
    bsjezz wrote: »
    bsjezz wrote: »
    i don't know. craftsmen more than artists, i'd say. i think the most convincing argument for games as art blooms from the other end - independant games with a singular creative vision. everyday shooter is art. call of duty 2 is not

    but since when is something painstakingly crafted and taken pride in not art?

    a model car, for example

    you can craft it perfect detail and precision, for months or years, but you're never going to create something more meaningful than the car as it was already, an idea and some parts in a box

    one could argue that putting together a model with skill is an art of its own

    and what about the people who put the parts together? if a guy makes a really good helicopter model for a video game that he's particularly proud of, who's to say that isn't art?

    look technical skill and perserverant application of that skill does not an art make. you could just as easily say garbage collection is art. which you could argue, for a certain definition of art, but i'm not interested in that argument. i already understand what art is

    for me art has to be an arrangement of content and stylistic choices which make no sacrifice in communicating their central purpose. art is communication. unless their is some new message to be carried, or an old message to be carried better, it fails to be art. well, at least good art. 'bad art' is a different thing entirely

    then you have a narrower definition of art than I care to entertain myself. for me art is the expression of creativity. and that shows through in every game, though the levels of creativity may differ.

    Kuribo's Shoe on
    xmassig2.gif
  • CalliusCallius Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    bsjezz wrote: »
    yeah that was a silly way to say it

    i have seen pottery that's art. in modern art i personally haven't seen any artistic pottery, but i'm sure it exists

    what i meant was more like 'show me some artistic pottery, and i'll show you the difference between that and my cereal bowl'
    You haven't bothered to look.

    Callius on
    tonksigblack.png
  • TanolenTanolen Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    bsjezz wrote: »
    say you have a dude who makes pottery for a living

    do you consider the pottery to be art? even if there are no depictions or designs on the pottery? if the pottery was designed with a utilitarian purpose in mind like storage? where is that line?

    the only way to find out is to see some pottery that's art

    i haven't

    Canopic Jars

    SC116.jpg

    Tanolen on
This discussion has been closed.