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[DnD 4E Discussion] Wizards finally filled the Kraken with MM3.
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Also, so youve pointed out that the possibility exists of TPK if the party isnt balanced (I think thats what you were getting at), however the pregens quite simply do not appear to be a balanced party. It seems to me to be an all out offensive group with 1 character having the secondary chance to cast 2 heals (Ardent). In FR encounters My group usually consited of a priest and a paladin who were at almost every game, plus us strikers and we still were reasonably beat up at the end of a fight needing to use surges, second winds. We had combined...letsee...i think the healer had 2 direct heals, he had the ...i think it was a feat or daily that let him heal all bloodied characters in a burst...the paladin had lay on hands and that was it i think.
To your points about the powergamer making the newbies feel like newbies......well I wonder just how many of those newbies survived because they had at least one person in the group who knew how the game worked enough to do this.
I'm just saying they could have made the pregens alot more acceptable by increasing the available options...like 2 or 3 different setups...for example the hunter is a meele type, why not send out one geared for range, and maybe one with a pet and let the player choose which to play?
Not that the pregens are that bad, it will actually make life much easier for everyone in general as there won't be a huge power disparity between groups that get TPKed all the time (EG See Ravenmuse's post) and those that seem to breeze through it (heavily optimized groups that I suspect know one another before hand).
It depends on what you enjoyed about 3E. 3E has an arguably "deeper" skill system and it has overall the most options of any version of DnD. The primary issues with 3E is the fact there is no balance anywhere in the system between casters and non-casters. Classes like wizards, clerics and druids start out relatively weak (albeit IMO this is arguable for Druids and Clerics) but exponentially become far more powerful compared to "martial" classes like the fighter. For some this is a well trod fantasy trope and basically a sacred cow that must not be changed.
4E of course utterly obliterates this, wizards are able to cast a few spells quite often per day and they aren't as squishy compared to other classes. Fighters are arguably one of the most powerful characters in the game and get better as they level up. In fact nobody becomes so dominant in 4E that they make all other classes irrelevant - the game is much more closely balanced. This is something people will either hate, because they found the power disparities were either not significant to them or they found it a flavorful aspect of roleplaying.
So if you don't care about either of those things, then 4E may be attractive. The combat system is one of the best tabletop combat systems devised for a roleplaying game. While it does have its rules issues, which a cursory reading of this thread will show you every now and again they are not major. In general what I find is while the rules could be described as stripped down, it means they get in the way far less than they did in previous editions. I have not had major 2 hour plus arguments about polymorph* in 4E (and thank god, I never will again).
Additionally I really like that 4E made a decision to publish pure fluff books like Underdark and not include PC options. This must have been a difficult decision for them, but this means you don't have random spells/classes and such thrown into books that otherwise have very little information for players. Minding PCs can get any mechanical crunch they want just by getting a single month of DDI subscription from Wizards - but still it's nice to see them decide some books should be jam packed with PC options while others are for DMs.
In the end though they have a free adventure and quickstart rules online (see the opening post for a link). You can download that, play it with your group and see how you feel about it: All without costing you anything! That's what I would recommend you do.
*Don't ask.
I'm pretty sure this is just a result of a) there's been less time to accumulate feats and powers - I'm already overwhelmed sometimes trying to pick feats from the feat list and wondering why the hell there are so many - and b) a QA team going through and errata-ing the fucked up stuff effectively.
(Solar Wrath noooooo
There was no exploitation of any loopholes and it was just plain icebergs. I didn't have high enough level spell slots to use Energy Admixture to blend acid and ice together yet. :mrgreen:
Edit: Orcus of course is the bitch of Daemon lords now.
Realize that Aegeri's just referring to DM-focused books with no PC options in them at all. We haven't had an actual rules-less supplement since 2e's dying days.
Yeah, that is what I meant - though I view these as "pure fluff" books because all the mechanical crunch is gained with a single DDI subscription. The strength of their books is entirely on their fluff and thus far they've done an exceptional job (Plane Above, Plane Below, Draconomicon and Open Grave are stand out books).
I suspect the higher amount of fluff in MM3 is because of this factor. Why buy a book of monsters if you can get the mechanical crunch easily with DDI and the fluff isn't worth it? Personally I would rather have more monsters but that is it seems a losing argument now and Wizards agrees.
The only exception now I think of this is Manual of the Planes. It also proves why it's a terrible idea to randomly throw PC related stuff into a DM fluff book.
I haven't really been disappointed by many of the fluffy DM books they've made or in general. The only books that I've been disappointing to me have been the Forgotten Realms Players Guide, Players Handbook 3 and Revenge of the Giants (albeit it's still a pretty solid adventure, just wasn't what I was hoping for).
People don't want fluff. People want crunchy stuff. "I can write my own fluff" is the common cry among many a gamer. The amount of people who have come out saying that they would rather get their books as full on texts minus pictures and "stuff I don't need" is incredible.
Besides, as much as I love the 4e folks, they're not really "fluff" folks; they're guys who can write really good mechanics and can do a half decent job at writing fluff.
Feel free to shout me down here, but expecting us to get fluff anywhere near Planescape or Ravenloft is asking for a little much nowadays, and it's a shame.
That might be your store. I know that the one I play at, they've let us take the pre-gen characters we've used home.
And again, you sound like you've never played in a convention game before. "Here's your party. Get to work."
You kind of got what I was saying, and you kind of didn't. What I was more getting at was, if everyone, across the world, is using the same characters, it is then easier to build encounters since you know what everyone is capable of. It removes that element of surprise you get when you've got one party of minmaxed monsters, and one party of absolute newbies. One group is going to get through just fine, the other is going to struggle like hell (guess which one).
Yes, the GMs can balance as appropriate, but as I've demonstrated - and as others across the 'net have demonstrated - this is highly variable store by store.
Also, there are two things you have to remember here:
1. Dark Sun has no clerics. No Divine Power Source. So you're going to have to get by with either martial or arcane healing.
(and yes, I know they've said, "you can use them in your campaign". It's that last part that's the catch.)
2. Dark Sun is supposed to be highly offensive. You do not make it through Athas by diplomacy. It is the ultimate expression of democracy by the strongest. Screwing around will kill you.
Counterpoint: How many groups TPK'd because they were full of newbies that didn't know how to build characters, this was their first experience playing, or just plain don't minmax like the best of the best?
On this, I dunno. It's what they're giving out. Maybe you should take it up with them.
Telling some of my friends resulted in one of them posting the links below which are a definite must read if you want to make your solo encounters more interesting:
http://angrydm.com/2010/04/the-dd-boss-fight-part-1/
http://angrydm.com/2010/04/the-dd-boss-fight-part-2/
This is well worth reading. I've not had too many with solos actually, especially with them feeling "grindy" by epic tier especially. I've taken to mixing solos in with minions or other monsters, because really solos are monsters that do - completely ironically at that - require friends to actually be effective.
Minding what I've heard of MM3 solos puts things published beforehand to shame.
Edit: I like this guys advice quite a lot, I'll add a link to him in the new OP.