Nah, you had a solid theory for island being purgatory when JJ Abrams first thought up the concept, but it clearly deviated after everyone guessed it.
If you're trying to suggest it's still a sound theory you're way stretching it.
Man, I'm like the Devil's uberAdvocate. I'm not saying that yeah, that's the definite answer, I'm just saying that people who think that's the case really aren't ignoring or fabricating any more than anyone else who claims that they have it all figured out.
I mean, seriously, everything on the island was "real?" Like, how real? Seeing dead people, was that real? Kate's horse, the Hurleybird, and the bald mental patient, was that real? The numerous characters (at least 3 that I can remember) who insisted that they were all already dead, many of them laughing at the ignorance of those who didn't understand that already, was that real? Walt's powers, were those real? Time travel was real? Jacob and MiB and their witchy woman mom, they were real? WTF does real mean? If all those things are real, then what kind of thing would you say "isn't real"?
That's my point. If you listen to one line from Christian, saying "everything was for realz," and you buy it hook, line and sinker and badmouth anyone who questions it, then sorry, I have no more respect for your interpretation of the show than I do for someone who believes that the whole thing was purgatory and they were dead all along. You're all selectively ignoring some serious contradictory shit; some people don't believe that the final scene is that much more important than the 100+ other episodes we've seen.
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ZampanovYou May Not Go HomeUntil Tonight Has Been MagicalRegistered Userregular
Nah, you had a solid theory for island being purgatory when JJ Abrams first thought up the concept, but it clearly deviated after everyone guessed it.
If you're trying to suggest it's still a sound theory you're way stretching it.
Man, I'm like the Devil's uberAdvocate. I'm not saying that yeah, that's the definite answer, I'm just saying that people who think that's the case really aren't ignoring or fabricating any more than anyone else who claims that they have it all figured out.
I mean, seriously, everything on the island was "real?" Like, how real? Seeing dead people, was that real? Kate's horse, the Hurleybird, and the bald mental patient, was that real? The numerous characters (at least 3 that I can remember) who insisted that they were all already dead, many of them laughing at the ignorance of those who didn't understand that already, was that real? Walt's powers, were those real? Time travel was real? Jacob and MiB and their witchy woman mom, they were real? WTF does real mean? If all those things are real, then what kind of thing would you say "isn't real"?
That's my point. If you listen to one line from Christian, saying "everything was for realz," and you buy it hook, line and sinker and badmouth anyone who questions it, then sorry, I have no more respect for your interpretation of the show than I do for someone who believes that the whole thing was purgatory and they were dead all along. You're all selectively ignoring some serious contradictory shit; some people don't believe that the final scene is that much more important than the 100+ other episodes we've seen.
That one line from Christian is pretty obviously there so that some people wouldn't be completely and utterly confused by the other things he was saying. The writers didn't want to be unclear about his explanation of where they were.
There's a big difference between not being able to explain some of those things you mentioned, and just dismissing the entirety of the story arc because of it.
It does make me feel better to see you confirm you're playing devil's advocate. I understand that mindset, and I didn't want to think you were going nuts on us.
DHSChase lizards.....bark at donkeys..Registered Userregular
edited June 2010
And didn't the Others have horses? I coulda sworn I saw someone riding a horse I mean, Mikhail had cows, and on an island with few paved roads horses would be kinda useful.
Also Sawyer saw it too, so I'm thinking like the Polar bears it could be an Others/Dharma import.
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"Grip 'em up, grip 'em, grip 'em good, said the Gryphon... to the pig."
it all happened to them, it was all real. ignoring nothing. every was for realz.
kate seeing a horse or hurley seeing whatever he saw, why does it destroy that just because maybe they hallucinated it?
we were being shown that they saw it, and they did. for realz.
No, if you see a horse, it is a sign that you are dead or part of the matrix.
That reminds me of the section from John Hodgman's the Areas of My Expertise about omens and portents. I'm pretty sure that if we tabulated the omens and portents for lost we'd end up with Ragnarok for sure.
Maybe they are all in Asgard?
DHS on
"Grip 'em up, grip 'em, grip 'em good, said the Gryphon... to the pig."
It was a real hallucination, sure. Hallucinations of people lying to them. Maybe Christian was that, too. That's very likely not what the writers were going for. But shit, cut me some slack, there is no single coherent logical explanation for this show. Hurley hallucinates an old friend of his who tells him he's dead, but you know, that wasn't really true. Jack hallucinates his father who tells him it was all real. That's true, of course, because, um, it happened in the finale so of course they wouldn't still be feeding us bullshit at that point. Yeah ok great, now you've broken the fifth wall in explaining things, and if we're doing that, then I've got a wall of text for you about what this show really was.
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ZampanovYou May Not Go HomeUntil Tonight Has Been MagicalRegistered Userregular
It was a real hallucination, sure. Hallucinations of people lying to them. Maybe Christian was that, too. That's very likely not what the writers were going for. But shit, cut me some slack, there is no single coherent logical explanation for this show. Hurley hallucinates an old friend of his who tells him he's dead, but you know, that wasn't really true. Jack hallucinates his father who tells him it was all real. That's true, of course, because, um, it happened in the finale so of course they wouldn't still be feeding us bullshit at that point. Yeah ok great, now you've broken the fifth wall in explaining things, and if we're doing that, then I've got a wall of text for you about what this show really was.
The nature of the show may lend itself to being twisted into whatever anyone wants, but for the most part it's clear what the most probable explanation is. I maintain that playing around with it is fun, but suggesting that ridiculous shit is on the same level as the obvious and most probable conclusion is being disingenuous.
Nah, you had a solid theory for island being purgatory when JJ Abrams first thought up the concept, but it clearly deviated after everyone guessed it.
If you're trying to suggest it's still a sound theory you're way stretching it.
Man, I'm like the Devil's uberAdvocate. I'm not saying that yeah, that's the definite answer, I'm just saying that people who think that's the case really aren't ignoring or fabricating any more than anyone else who claims that they have it all figured out.
I mean, seriously, everything on the island was "real?" Like, how real? Seeing dead people, was that real? Kate's horse, the Hurleybird, and the bald mental patient, was that real? The numerous characters (at least 3 that I can remember) who insisted that they were all already dead, many of them laughing at the ignorance of those who didn't understand that already, was that real? Walt's powers, were those real? Time travel was real? Jacob and MiB and their witchy woman mom, they were real? WTF does real mean? If all those things are real, then what kind of thing would you say "isn't real"?
That's my point. If you listen to one line from Christian, saying "everything was for realz," and you buy it hook, line and sinker and badmouth anyone who questions it, then sorry, I have no more respect for your interpretation of the show than I do for someone who believes that the whole thing was purgatory and they were dead all along. You're all selectively ignoring some serious contradictory shit; some people don't believe that the final scene is that much more important than the 100+ other episodes we've seen.
Well, real in the sense that it's a television show, yes. If you're going to doubt that everything after the pilot was real, why not go beyond that? They died on the tarmac. The ENTIRE SHOW is a fantasy!
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
Nah, you had a solid theory for island being purgatory when JJ Abrams first thought up the concept, but it clearly deviated after everyone guessed it.
If you're trying to suggest it's still a sound theory you're way stretching it.
Man, I'm like the Devil's uberAdvocate. I'm not saying that yeah, that's the definite answer, I'm just saying that people who think that's the case really aren't ignoring or fabricating any more than anyone else who claims that they have it all figured out.
I mean, seriously, everything on the island was "real?" Like, how real? Seeing dead people, was that real? Kate's horse, the Hurleybird, and the bald mental patient, was that real? The numerous characters (at least 3 that I can remember) who insisted that they were all already dead, many of them laughing at the ignorance of those who didn't understand that already, was that real? Walt's powers, were those real? Time travel was real? Jacob and MiB and their witchy woman mom, they were real? WTF does real mean? If all those things are real, then what kind of thing would you say "isn't real"?
That's my point. If you listen to one line from Christian, saying "everything was for realz," and you buy it hook, line and sinker and badmouth anyone who questions it, then sorry, I have no more respect for your interpretation of the show than I do for someone who believes that the whole thing was purgatory and they were dead all along. You're all selectively ignoring some serious contradictory shit; some people don't believe that the final scene is that much more important than the 100+ other episodes we've seen.
Why would the writers throw in such an obvious line right at the end like that? To trick the audience? They needed to give the audience some closure, not pull some ambiguous stunt right at the end. Everything that happened on the island was completely real and happened within the realm of the living.
You really seem to be ignoring the seasons where they left the island and went back home. If they were already dead, then that would imply Penny is dead (how'd she die?), since she's the one that found the Oceanic Six.
If they were all dead, how did Claire have a baby? I've never seen anything in legend or fiction to indicate this is "possible".
Seeing dead people was real. People claim to see ghosts even in real life.
The Hurley Bird may have said something that sounded like "hurley" but Sawyer debunked that when Hugo asked him if it said his name and he responded "Yeah, it did. Right before it crapped gold.".
The bald mental patient... well, you must have slept through that entire episode where they showed Hugo in the mental ward with his imaginary friend.
The horse? Probably Kate's spirit guide, or a real horse. Since they definitely had horses on the island.
The people who thought they were already dead? Well, they did survive (keyword here) a fucking plane crash... so that might be a fair assumption to make if you let yourself succumb to despair.
Time travel? Definitely real. We spent entire seasons on the subject.
Walt? Giant plot hole.
I could go on, but it's probably fruitless. It may have been intended in the pilot that they were all dead already, but since the entire world guessed the finale in the pilot they had to change course. It's too obvious of a plot point.
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The_SpaniardIt's never lupinesIrvine, CaliforniaRegistered Userregular
edited June 2010
I ordered a keyboard, it came a couple days ago and the first thing I'm teaching myself on it is Death and Life. I can play the whole first minute-minute and a half. WOOO!
The obvious and most probable conclusion is that they took a story design about people who died on a plane and ended up in a sort-of purgatory where two demigods played a game over the fate of their souls, and stretched it and tweaked it randomly according to no plan at all, spoon-feeding us exposition that veers from the design, and yet nevertheless coming back to that design over and over, until any attempt at providing a conclusive explanation of what really happened is questionable at best. A little more humility is all I'm saying. People who act all haughty about others who "didn't get it" are themselves glossing over and ignoring a lot of shit in their pet theories, and going with a vague, spoon-fed answer that doesn't add up very well anyway.
Edit: Ragnar, great example. You've got a lot of stuff, all of it either inconclusive, made-up by you, or admitting a huge plot-hole, or perhaps all three. Why not add to that list, "Christian at the end: totally not making any sense, a hallucination, wishful thinking by Jack, ignore it"? You could throw that out there about as well as you could the other stuff.
There are a lot of people among the Lost fanbase, and different people have very different ways they perceive a story, and what things they put emhpasis on, and how they come to imagine the narrative in their head. In a show more conclusive and direct and less mysterious, this isn't as much of an issue. For Lost, it means that I can totally see how someone would say "they were dead along" and while I recognize that this doesn't fit at all with what we were told, I've yet to hear anything at all (except my first paragraph above) that fits together all that well.
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
The obvious and most probable conclusion is that they took a story design about people who died on a plane and ended up in a sort-of purgatory where two demigods played a game over the fate of their souls, and stretched it and tweaked it randomly according to no plan at all, until any attempt at providing a conclusive explanation of what really happened is questionable at best. A little more humility is all I'm saying. People who act all haughty about others who "didn't get it" are themselves glossing over and ignoring a lot of shit in their pet theories, and going with a vague, spoon-fed answer that doesn't add up very well anyway.
I agree with the first half, about how they got where they got, but I think it's quite clear what they meant in the end to be the 'story'. I don't think it ignores anywhere near as much as saying they died when the plan crashed.
The obvious and most probable conclusion is that they took a story design about people who died on a plane and ended up in a sort-of purgatory where two demigods played a game over the fate of their souls, and stretched it and tweaked it randomly according to no plan at all, until any attempt at providing a conclusive explanation of what really happened is questionable at best. A little more humility is all I'm saying. People who act all haughty about others who "didn't get it" are themselves glossing over and ignoring a lot of shit in their pet theories, and going with a vague, spoon-fed answer that doesn't add up very well anyway.
The fact that Jacob and his Brother only show up in the final series kind of shits on this.
They made it up as they went along is a better supported idea than what you keep spouting.
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ZampanovYou May Not Go HomeUntil Tonight Has Been MagicalRegistered Userregular
The obvious and most probable conclusion is that they took a story design about people who died on a plane and ended up in a sort-of purgatory where two demigods played a game over the fate of their souls, and stretched it and tweaked it randomly according to no plan at all, until any attempt at providing a conclusive explanation of what really happened is questionable at best. A little more humility is all I'm saying. People who act all haughty about others who "didn't get it" are themselves glossing over and ignoring a lot of shit in their pet theories, and going with a vague, spoon-fed answer that doesn't add up very well anyway.
This isn't exactly a David Lynch movie. It seems like you're attempting to defend people who either honestly didn't get it, or are willfully attempting to put down the show for story threads left loose. You obviously understood the intended resolution, and to pretend otherwise is moving out of the devil's advocate territory and into troll territory.
The obvious and most probable conclusion is that they took a story design about people who died on a plane and ended up in a sort-of purgatory where two demigods played a game over the fate of their souls, and stretched it and tweaked it randomly according to no plan at all, until any attempt at providing a conclusive explanation of what really happened is questionable at best. A little more humility is all I'm saying. People who act all haughty about others who "didn't get it" are themselves glossing over and ignoring a lot of shit in their pet theories, and going with a vague, spoon-fed answer that doesn't add up very well anyway.
So the writers are allowed to change their mind, but we're not?
If they started out thinking of it as purgatory, then it was absolutely purgatory all along even if that's contradicted in later seasons?
I'm sorry, but anyone who saw the ending and says "oh, so they were dead all along!" probably hasn't watched the show since season 2. Personally, I never thought they were dead all along, even way back in season 1 where that was a viable theory.
My own view on the whole purgatory and "awakening" thing is a little different from the majority idea.
The way I see it, the alternate timeline was a real universe (albeit a side-universe) but the events that occurred within this alt-verse were every bit as real as the events that happened in the main island timeline.
Basically, when the people began having their awakenings, a third reality was spawned, which was some sort of meta-physical existence that was running parallel to the alt-verse. Confusing? Yes.
But I find it hard to believe that the entire alt-verse ceased to exist just because a handful of like 15 people discovered each other. If the whole "purgatory" thing was just a waiting room to reunite the passengers of Oceanic 815, then 99.99% of the world was completely unnecessary and extraneous.
All I'm saying is, the alternate timeline was much too elaborate and "real" to be simply a purgatory holding room.
Which is why my idea is that the awakenings somehow created this intangible 3rd reality.
Holy shit, thank you Lucas. That's almost exactly my #2 favorite theory, the one that tries to piece together what we actually saw without veering into what the show was probably supposed to be about. And as far as I'm concerned, it makes significantly more sense than the popular consensus and ties way more fo the show together. Get ready for a lot of people to tell you about how you just don't get it and that you're a troll.
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ZampanovYou May Not Go HomeUntil Tonight Has Been MagicalRegistered Userregular
Holy shit, thank you Lucas. That's almost exactly my #2 favorite theory, the one that tries to piece together what we actually saw without veering into what the show was probably supposed to be about. And as far as I'm concerned, it makes significantly more sense than the popular consensus and ties way more fo the show together. Get ready for a lot of people to tell you about how you just don't get it and that you're a troll.
No, I actually like that theory too. Everything was real makes sense. Nothing was real doesn't.
And people being able to create additional/pocket universes is always a cool idea.
The fact that Jacob and his Brother only show up in the final series kind of shits on this.
No it doesn't, it fits perfectly. Even in a story about dead people on an island purgatory, introducing the demigods playing a backgammon game with their souls could easily come in very late in the story. But it isn't like Locke wasn't hinting at it pretty hard in his monologue in the first episode about backgammon.
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
edited June 2010
I don't quite get it. I'm all for everything that happened to them being real in the alt-verse from an experience standpoint, but I don't understand the third reality part.
Assuming that the alternate timeline has a more rigid set of rules, which more closely resemble that of the "real world" i.e. the alternate timeline does not have any of the crazy island shenanigans in it, since the island doesn't exist in the alternate timeline, then there are a few assumptions we can make regarding the alternate-timeline.
-- Ghosts don't exist in the alt-verse.
-- Miles never talks to the dead, nor does Hugo in the alt-verse
-- Christian was dead when he was in Australia. We can fairly reasonably assume that Jack ID'd the body before they flew it out.
-- Since Christian was alive (or something) at the chapel, that means at some point the purity of the alt-verse was broken.
Basically, up until the final episode, we had literally no indication that there was anything special about the alternate timeline, other than the fact that people could be awakened to their island memories. Since we have no previous evidence of ghosts or anything paranormal at all, that means at some point during Desmond's crusade to awaken everyone from 815, he created a 3rd splinter universe in which the meta-physical is possible.
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
My problem with Alt-verse/Purgatory being a forked off timeline from the Main-Verse is that, in the Main-Verse, protecting the Island is of utmost importance. However, in Alt-verse/Purgatory, the Island is destroyed, and the world is no worse for it. If the Island can be destroyed with out much consequence, it kinda ruins everything that the characters went through protecting the Island in Main-Verse.
Yeah I guess I forgot about those parts. But that doesn't mean that the island had any special properties while it was there. We don't know enough about what the Dharma Initiative was doing there in the alt-verse to know if there was anything different.
Yeah I guess I forgot about those parts. But that doesn't mean that the island had any special properties while it was there. We don't know enough about what the Dharma Initiative was doing there in the alt-verse to know if there was anything different.
The fact that the Dharma initiative existed at all is proof that the Island was special in alt-verse, at least in the past.
But since it's some sort of group-crafted reality, who knows if that relates at all to the way it was special in the real world.
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
edited June 2010
yeah it could just as easily be created by the losties with things they 'know' from their real lives.
in a way I liked the island as representing that. it was there, but hidden.
but I haven't come to a final answer about how much of the alt-verse was losty created v. real for everyone we saw (i.e. jack's son etc.). I don't think there is one.
Yeah I guess I forgot about those parts. But that doesn't mean that the island had any special properties while it was there. We don't know enough about what the Dharma Initiative was doing there in the alt-verse to know if there was anything different.
The fact that the Dharma initiative existed at all is proof that the Island was special in alt-verse, at least in the past.
But since it's some sort of group-crafted reality, who knows if that relates at all to the way it was special in the real world.
Except for the part where Dharma was performing social, medical, and biological experiments. They didn't find out about the electro-magnetism and other crazy island stuff till they got there.
I have a hunch that in the alt-verse, Dharma would've been doing the same thing. They created various stations with different study purposes. Doesn't mean they were studying anything at all to do with the island. Because in the primary timeline, they didn't start studying the island until later.
My own view on the whole purgatory and "awakening" thing is a little different from the majority idea.
The way I see it, the alternate timeline was a real universe (albeit a side-universe) but the events that occurred within this alt-verse were every bit as real as the events that happened in the main island timeline.
Basically, when the people began having their awakenings, a third reality was spawned, which was some sort of meta-physical existence that was running parallel to the alt-verse. Confusing? Yes.
But I find it hard to believe that the entire alt-verse ceased to exist just because a handful of like 15 people discovered each other. If the whole "purgatory" thing was just a waiting room to reunite the passengers of Oceanic 815, then 99.99% of the world was completely unnecessary and extraneous.
All I'm saying is, the alternate timeline was much too elaborate and "real" to be simply a purgatory holding room.
Which is why my idea is that the awakenings somehow created this intangible 3rd reality.
It wasn't elaborate though. In fact, it was downright not real feeling.
You say 99.99% of the world was completely unnecessary, but we don't SEE most of the world.
Everyone in Sideways is in LA. EVERYONE. Every person they've ever met that had something to do with the Island.
It's very dream-sequency in that respect. It's a fake world filled in with characters from their lives.
They were above the ocean as well, presumably in Australia too. It seemed just as real as the island reality to me in its composition.
Let`s say this reality was entirely concieved in their minds. It seems to be fully functioning with complete human beings in it that aren`t just simple constructs. What makes it any less real then. I mean, it`s essentially a new dimension formed through their mind or something if that`s the case.
My own view on the whole purgatory and "awakening" thing is a little different from the majority idea.
The way I see it, the alternate timeline was a real universe (albeit a side-universe) but the events that occurred within this alt-verse were every bit as real as the events that happened in the main island timeline.
Basically, when the people began having their awakenings, a third reality was spawned, which was some sort of meta-physical existence that was running parallel to the alt-verse. Confusing? Yes.
But I find it hard to believe that the entire alt-verse ceased to exist just because a handful of like 15 people discovered each other. If the whole "purgatory" thing was just a waiting room to reunite the passengers of Oceanic 815, then 99.99% of the world was completely unnecessary and extraneous.
All I'm saying is, the alternate timeline was much too elaborate and "real" to be simply a purgatory holding room.
Which is why my idea is that the awakenings somehow created this intangible 3rd reality.
The purgatory didn't disappear in the end - see Ben staying behind, and Daniel and Ana Lucia not being ready "yet." I have no idea what you're talking about with the third reality stuff. I think the whole thing is very simple:
1. Island stuff happens. Ghosts, immortals, hurley birds, all 100% real.
2. Eventually, everybody dies.
3. In some alternate plane of reality, "after" they all died, they go to a purgatory world in which they are able to reunite with eachother one last time before truly letting go and moving on to true death/the afterlife.
The exact details of Step 3 are a little ambiguous. It might have been created by Hurley for the islanders. It might be something that everyone experiences in their own way with their own group of people. Maybe it's an aftereffect of exposure to the island's Source. Who knows. It's clear that there are "fake" people in that purgatory though put there for the purposes of people who are moving on, namely Jack's son. Based on that I definitely think this instance of the purgatory exists for a specific subset of people, some of which moved on in the church and some of which are sticking around a little longer, while the rest of the people in that world are just illusions to enable their journey.
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I mean, seriously, everything on the island was "real?" Like, how real? Seeing dead people, was that real? Kate's horse, the Hurleybird, and the bald mental patient, was that real? The numerous characters (at least 3 that I can remember) who insisted that they were all already dead, many of them laughing at the ignorance of those who didn't understand that already, was that real? Walt's powers, were those real? Time travel was real? Jacob and MiB and their witchy woman mom, they were real? WTF does real mean? If all those things are real, then what kind of thing would you say "isn't real"?
That's my point. If you listen to one line from Christian, saying "everything was for realz," and you buy it hook, line and sinker and badmouth anyone who questions it, then sorry, I have no more respect for your interpretation of the show than I do for someone who believes that the whole thing was purgatory and they were dead all along. You're all selectively ignoring some serious contradictory shit; some people don't believe that the final scene is that much more important than the 100+ other episodes we've seen.
That one line from Christian is pretty obviously there so that some people wouldn't be completely and utterly confused by the other things he was saying. The writers didn't want to be unclear about his explanation of where they were.
There's a big difference between not being able to explain some of those things you mentioned, and just dismissing the entirety of the story arc because of it.
It does make me feel better to see you confirm you're playing devil's advocate. I understand that mindset, and I didn't want to think you were going nuts on us.
PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
kate seeing a horse or hurley seeing whatever he saw, why does it destroy that just because maybe they hallucinated it?
we were being shown that they saw it, and they did. for realz.
Also Sawyer saw it too, so I'm thinking like the Polar bears it could be an Others/Dharma import.
No, if you see a horse, it is a sign that you are dead or part of the matrix.
PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
That reminds me of the section from John Hodgman's the Areas of My Expertise about omens and portents. I'm pretty sure that if we tabulated the omens and portents for lost we'd end up with Ragnarok for sure.
Maybe they are all in Asgard?
The nature of the show may lend itself to being twisted into whatever anyone wants, but for the most part it's clear what the most probable explanation is. I maintain that playing around with it is fun, but suggesting that ridiculous shit is on the same level as the obvious and most probable conclusion is being disingenuous.
PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
Well, real in the sense that it's a television show, yes. If you're going to doubt that everything after the pilot was real, why not go beyond that? They died on the tarmac. The ENTIRE SHOW is a fantasy!
hey maybe it was all fake
Why would the writers throw in such an obvious line right at the end like that? To trick the audience? They needed to give the audience some closure, not pull some ambiguous stunt right at the end. Everything that happened on the island was completely real and happened within the realm of the living.
You really seem to be ignoring the seasons where they left the island and went back home. If they were already dead, then that would imply Penny is dead (how'd she die?), since she's the one that found the Oceanic Six.
If they were all dead, how did Claire have a baby? I've never seen anything in legend or fiction to indicate this is "possible".
Seeing dead people was real. People claim to see ghosts even in real life.
The Hurley Bird may have said something that sounded like "hurley" but Sawyer debunked that when Hugo asked him if it said his name and he responded "Yeah, it did. Right before it crapped gold.".
The bald mental patient... well, you must have slept through that entire episode where they showed Hugo in the mental ward with his imaginary friend.
The horse? Probably Kate's spirit guide, or a real horse. Since they definitely had horses on the island.
The people who thought they were already dead? Well, they did survive (keyword here) a fucking plane crash... so that might be a fair assumption to make if you let yourself succumb to despair.
Time travel? Definitely real. We spent entire seasons on the subject.
Walt? Giant plot hole.
I could go on, but it's probably fruitless. It may have been intended in the pilot that they were all dead already, but since the entire world guessed the finale in the pilot they had to change course. It's too obvious of a plot point.
Edit: Ragnar, great example. You've got a lot of stuff, all of it either inconclusive, made-up by you, or admitting a huge plot-hole, or perhaps all three. Why not add to that list, "Christian at the end: totally not making any sense, a hallucination, wishful thinking by Jack, ignore it"? You could throw that out there about as well as you could the other stuff.
There are a lot of people among the Lost fanbase, and different people have very different ways they perceive a story, and what things they put emhpasis on, and how they come to imagine the narrative in their head. In a show more conclusive and direct and less mysterious, this isn't as much of an issue. For Lost, it means that I can totally see how someone would say "they were dead along" and while I recognize that this doesn't fit at all with what we were told, I've yet to hear anything at all (except my first paragraph above) that fits together all that well.
I agree with the first half, about how they got where they got, but I think it's quite clear what they meant in the end to be the 'story'. I don't think it ignores anywhere near as much as saying they died when the plan crashed.
They made it up as they went along is a better supported idea than what you keep spouting.
This isn't exactly a David Lynch movie. It seems like you're attempting to defend people who either honestly didn't get it, or are willfully attempting to put down the show for story threads left loose. You obviously understood the intended resolution, and to pretend otherwise is moving out of the devil's advocate territory and into troll territory.
PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
So the writers are allowed to change their mind, but we're not?
If they started out thinking of it as purgatory, then it was absolutely purgatory all along even if that's contradicted in later seasons?
I'm sorry, but anyone who saw the ending and says "oh, so they were dead all along!" probably hasn't watched the show since season 2. Personally, I never thought they were dead all along, even way back in season 1 where that was a viable theory.
The way I see it, the alternate timeline was a real universe (albeit a side-universe) but the events that occurred within this alt-verse were every bit as real as the events that happened in the main island timeline.
Basically, when the people began having their awakenings, a third reality was spawned, which was some sort of meta-physical existence that was running parallel to the alt-verse. Confusing? Yes.
But I find it hard to believe that the entire alt-verse ceased to exist just because a handful of like 15 people discovered each other. If the whole "purgatory" thing was just a waiting room to reunite the passengers of Oceanic 815, then 99.99% of the world was completely unnecessary and extraneous.
All I'm saying is, the alternate timeline was much too elaborate and "real" to be simply a purgatory holding room.
Which is why my idea is that the awakenings somehow created this intangible 3rd reality.
No, I actually like that theory too. Everything was real makes sense. Nothing was real doesn't.
And people being able to create additional/pocket universes is always a cool idea.
PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
Assuming that the alternate timeline has a more rigid set of rules, which more closely resemble that of the "real world" i.e. the alternate timeline does not have any of the crazy island shenanigans in it, since the island doesn't exist in the alternate timeline, then there are a few assumptions we can make regarding the alternate-timeline.
-- Ghosts don't exist in the alt-verse.
-- Miles never talks to the dead, nor does Hugo in the alt-verse
-- Christian was dead when he was in Australia. We can fairly reasonably assume that Jack ID'd the body before they flew it out.
-- Since Christian was alive (or something) at the chapel, that means at some point the purity of the alt-verse was broken.
Basically, up until the final episode, we had literally no indication that there was anything special about the alternate timeline, other than the fact that people could be awakened to their island memories. Since we have no previous evidence of ghosts or anything paranormal at all, that means at some point during Desmond's crusade to awaken everyone from 815, he created a 3rd splinter universe in which the meta-physical is possible.
Dead Claire had a baby in the finale. Aaron was re-birthed. :winky:
People really do win the lottery. I wouldn't call it supernatural.
Steam ID: Good Life
Steam ID: Good Life
Also Roger Linus clearly states to Alt-Ben, that he wishes he stayed with the Dharma initiative, on the Island.
The fact that the Dharma initiative existed at all is proof that the Island was special in alt-verse, at least in the past.
But since it's some sort of group-crafted reality, who knows if that relates at all to the way it was special in the real world.
in a way I liked the island as representing that. it was there, but hidden.
but I haven't come to a final answer about how much of the alt-verse was losty created v. real for everyone we saw (i.e. jack's son etc.). I don't think there is one.
Except for the part where Dharma was performing social, medical, and biological experiments. They didn't find out about the electro-magnetism and other crazy island stuff till they got there.
I have a hunch that in the alt-verse, Dharma would've been doing the same thing. They created various stations with different study purposes. Doesn't mean they were studying anything at all to do with the island. Because in the primary timeline, they didn't start studying the island until later.
It wasn't elaborate though. In fact, it was downright not real feeling.
You say 99.99% of the world was completely unnecessary, but we don't SEE most of the world.
Everyone in Sideways is in LA. EVERYONE. Every person they've ever met that had something to do with the Island.
It's very dream-sequency in that respect. It's a fake world filled in with characters from their lives.
Let`s say this reality was entirely concieved in their minds. It seems to be fully functioning with complete human beings in it that aren`t just simple constructs. What makes it any less real then. I mean, it`s essentially a new dimension formed through their mind or something if that`s the case.
The purgatory didn't disappear in the end - see Ben staying behind, and Daniel and Ana Lucia not being ready "yet." I have no idea what you're talking about with the third reality stuff. I think the whole thing is very simple:
1. Island stuff happens. Ghosts, immortals, hurley birds, all 100% real.
2. Eventually, everybody dies.
3. In some alternate plane of reality, "after" they all died, they go to a purgatory world in which they are able to reunite with eachother one last time before truly letting go and moving on to true death/the afterlife.
The exact details of Step 3 are a little ambiguous. It might have been created by Hurley for the islanders. It might be something that everyone experiences in their own way with their own group of people. Maybe it's an aftereffect of exposure to the island's Source. Who knows. It's clear that there are "fake" people in that purgatory though put there for the purposes of people who are moving on, namely Jack's son. Based on that I definitely think this instance of the purgatory exists for a specific subset of people, some of which moved on in the church and some of which are sticking around a little longer, while the rest of the people in that world are just illusions to enable their journey.