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Texas Planning Public Execution of Education

12346

Posts

  • psychoticdreampsychoticdream Registered User
    Henroid wrote: »
    Spoiler:
    I was never educated, in school, about Jefferson's view on religion. Not in any detail, at least. I was only made away of him not being Christian. Everything else I learned I had to learn on my own.

    This was in California, across many different schools.

    So I mean, that's already omitted. You don't have to worry about it going away from education because it's likely not even there. Let me put it like this: Is it actually important to know those very specific writings, or is it enough to say he wasn't hip on religion and you can find more by looking it up in the library / on the web? Because I consider the latter to be enough.

    i think its particularly important mainly because of his words having an impact on the idea of separation between church and state which is a very very important issue that we currently face.
    i mean if you ask around you'll find few if any people who know about the virginia statute of religious freedom he wrote.

    it might not be necessary to deal with everything he wrote but you definitely want to highlight his major works at least.

  • Casually HardcoreCasually Hardcore Registered User regular
    The only reason to take away Jefferson status of a USA founder is so they can make the proclamation that all the founders were Christian (which is far from truth, but these people believe that God made men from dirt).

    It's purely a religious move.

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  • PeenPeen Registered User regular
    Jefferson was only the most outspoken Deist of the Founding Fathers; the list of them that were either outright Deists or had Deist tendencies included Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Cornelius Harnett, Gouverneur Morris, Hugh Williamson, James Madison, John Adams, possibly Alexander Hamilton, Ethan Allen and Thomas Paine. Now I realize that the average history course isn't going to cover half of those guys, but if they're cutting Jefferson to proclaim an all Christian founding group than they're just being silly.

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  • CognisseurCognisseur Registered User
    Uh... so they're going to vote today I hear? So they opened up the day with prayers naturally, and kept it totally bias free.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdhGK9aYjDY&feature=player_embedded
    ("a Christian land governed by Christian principles")

  • CamuiCamui Sogekidan Registered User regular
    Guys, guys, guys....

    Don't blame Texas, blame religion.

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  • KalTorakKalTorak Registered User regular
    Camui wrote: »
    Guys, guys, guys....

    Don't blame Texas, blame religion.

    I think there's enough blame for both.

  • CamuiCamui Sogekidan Registered User regular
    I disagree, it is like saying hate the cancer that is growing inside you and yourself for having it.

    whorebanner2.jpg
  • KalTorakKalTorak Registered User regular
    Hey, it's not me.

    It's that guy over there. That Texan guy.

    And it's contagious cancer. And he's licking people.

  • corcorigancorcorigan Registered User
    All of America needs blaming for letting a bunch of morons basically control their kid's education.

    Ad Astra Per Aspera
  • CamuiCamui Sogekidan Registered User regular
    And take responsibility? It's far easier to just blame the people in charge. On a serious note, people who have a problem with this and do nothing to fight it aren't all that much better than the nuts doing the changes.

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  • RustRust __BANNED USERS
    Camui wrote: »
    And take responsibility? It's far easier to just blame the people in charge. On a serious note, people who have a problem with this and do nothing to fight it aren't all that much better than the nuts doing the changes.

    yeah they are

  • SynthesisSynthesis Registered User regular
    Scalfin wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote: »
    jothki wrote: »
    The only thing I learned from my High School history classes are:

    1. USA saved the world, twice.

    2. We lost Vietnam because of lazy hippies and draft dodgers.

    and

    3. America, fuck yeah!

    Why did we lose Vietnam, anyway? My assumption is that it was because we weren't willing to go to war with China, and so spent most of our time dicking around in the jungle instead of flattening North Vietnamese cities. I have yet to see any source actually discuss what we'd have needed to do differently to win, instead of just talking about how much it sucked, though.

    There were a lot of reasons. One somewhat overlooked one was that the Vietnamese--not all of them, but enough--didn't necessarily want the sort of new nation that was proposed by the American political brains at the time, especially as the United States was obliterating much of their own, very ancient nation with what I think was the largest air-bombing campaign in the history of the world up to that time?

    That, and a large enough portion of the Vietnamese population was willing to endure more than the United States had anticipated having to resort to. The Phoenix Program proved we weren't beyond some of the most violent and brutal methods applicable (a lot we also borrowed from the Vietnamese revolutionaries and guerrillas). That, along with everything else, wasn't sufficient to break enough of the population, which had been among the last resorts by the military leaders of the time.

    I mean, countries lose wars. Whether they give up early or drag their feet varies, but they lose. It might be as simple as "the Vietnamese were far more invested in their struggle than we would ever be", perhaps. The War of 1812, at least from what I know of it, is generally considered a "stalemate", with British losses were lower than that of the United States if I remember correctly, despite an obvious British military advantage. That gets overlooked a lot.

    China probably factored into it as well. Vietnam was already part of the Soviet, rather than the Chinese, camp, but a million American soldiers (or, conversely, several nuclear strikes) outside of Hanoi would have probably convinced Beijing to put aside their grievances with Hanoi and take a greater role in the war.

    It didn't exactly help that we were supporting the side that had stolen the election by winning 130% of the Hanoi vote. Other than that, my knowledge consists of how we kept getting more and more involved in Vietnam politics before the "war" itself, the fact that we dropped poison of our own guys, and the interchangeability between "ETS discharge" and "left to rot." That last one was mainly because I was being taught by the son of William Joiner.

    Most of my cold war education was actually about the early stuff like the US backing the monarchy of Greece, as well as quite a few other dictators, monarchs, and general-purpose election losers.

    Likewise, my WWI education was almost totally about the fact that Europeans are retarded.

    I think something a little problematic, since while it seems okay to teach people "The Europeans were very stupid, and this led to the Great War", it's less okay to say "The Europeans had engaged in smaller, but still very violent wars, for their imperial possessions in Central Asia and Africa for decades, and that in turn contributed to the great war". Like there's some sort of recent jerk-back response to teaching about economy-building colonialism.
    Eh there's alot you can say about Vietnam but whenever the north Vietnamese cities infrastructure was bombed directly we got what we wanted politically, that and every single individual engagement of the war was won by the Americans.

    The war was stupid for a whole host of reasons, not the least of which being that they told an army capable of winning a direct assault "hey, you can't go past this line"

    I'm not an expert, I think there was a concern of what one million Americans marching in the direction of Hanoi (over one year or five years or whatever depending on how it went) would cause in a response in the USSR and China, who were watching the situation very closely (perhaps closer than we were). The Vietnam War wasn't fought in a vacuum, after all, no wars are. Saying "Oh, we would have won if we'd just let the army do its job" isn't always a safe perspective. If we'd let the army do whatever it needed to, no strings attached, I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up in them waiting until every population center in the North had been bombed into oblivion (or perhaps even resorting to things like tactical nuclear weapons to turn it into a big irradiated crater) before sustaining casualties that were increasingly unpopular to its image.

    Of course, that's entirely speculative on my part. But we'd seriously underestimated the North's willingness to endure (if not the Viet Cong movement's) more than once already. This could just be my upbringing in a capitalist police state talking, but I think we're a civil society because we keep the armed forces on a leash.

    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Super Moderator, Moderator, ClubPA mod
    Camui wrote: »
    And take responsibility? It's far easier to just blame the people in charge. On a serious note, people who have a problem with this and do nothing to fight it aren't all that much better than the nuts doing the changes.

    Well, I keep tabs on what my daughter is learning and make it a point to instill my own social and academic values on her rather than trust that her school is being a good daddy. That's not really fighting the system, but it hardly makes me on par with Joe Nutbar over there, trying to strike inconvenient opinions from the history books.

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  • CervetusCervetus Registered User regular
    Rock 'n' roll and hip-hop: Students will have to study a list of influential musical and cultural movements in America that includes rock 'n' roll, Tin Pan Alley, country music and the Beat generation. Social conservatives beat back an effort to include hip-hop music after some members complained that its often-crude lyrics are inappropriate for students

    It's a good thing we still have Rock and Roll and Country music though, with their perpetually wholesome messages.

    The libertarian response to anything is, "Sure, that works fine in practice, but it doesn't fly in theory."
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Tastyfish wrote: »
    Easter is the important one though. If you're doing world religious holidays at all... which why?

    Its part of a world cultures course, though I imagine its just a version of the religious studies we had in our school (in the UK) - a general look at the five major religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism with a little bit of Sikhism as well) far as history, general beliefs and traditions go.

    Well, right, but frankly knowing what the holidays are is a bit silly.

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  • enc0reenc0re Registered User regular
    Tastyfish wrote: »
    Easter is the important one though. If you're doing world religious holidays at all... which why?

    Its part of a world cultures course, though I imagine its just a version of the religious studies we had in our school (in the UK) - a general look at the five major religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism with a little bit of Sikhism as well) far as history, general beliefs and traditions go.

    Well, right, but frankly knowing what the holidays are is a bit silly.

    Christmas has major economic impacts. Arguably Santa Claus is the most influential and important piece of Christianity today.

  • HenroidHenroid Baba Booey to y'all Tyler, TX (where hope comes to die!)Registered User regular
    Camui wrote: »
    Guys, guys, guys....

    Don't blame Texas, blame religion.

    Why not blame people who can't handle it in a reasonable manner?

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    1) That's overstated, as I understand it.
    2) That's an American thing and not essential to world history or culture.

    My cousin made this game: Gem Pop. It's legitimately fun, particularly for people who enjoy Bejewled, Dr. Mario, Tetris, etc. kinds of games. Only two bucks! If you try it out, PM me with what you think of it.
  • TastyfishTastyfish Registered User regular
    enc0re wrote: »
    Tastyfish wrote: »
    Easter is the important one though. If you're doing world religious holidays at all... which why?

    Its part of a world cultures course, though I imagine its just a version of the religious studies we had in our school (in the UK) - a general look at the five major religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism with a little bit of Sikhism as well) far as history, general beliefs and traditions go.

    Well, right, but frankly knowing what the holidays are is a bit silly.

    Christmas has major economic impacts. Arguably Santa Claus is the most influential and important piece of Christianity today.

    I'd have thought that it was more in there to be included as a comparison - if you want to compare and contrast different cultures I don't think its that unreasonable have to include the things you want to compare them to in the syllabus. Wouldn't have thought there would be a large section on christmas, but if you want to include Eid and the like it makes sense to include christmas just so you have a complete set (plus there's probably quite a bit people don't know if you wanted to add in some christmas trivia as well so then learn something, origins of the various traditions which are no where near as obvious as most other religious festivals - why fir trees in December to celebrate the birth of someone born in spring in a desert, plus all the other non-anglican christmas traditions and date changes etc).

    Thinking about it, there's quite a lot you could do for Christmas. That said, I'm not totally convinced that was the motivation.

  • mynameisguidomynameisguido Registered User regular
    I'm just curious as to how they can justify not including hip-hop considering how important it is as a cultural phenomenon both here and in the rest of the world.

    Whether or not some of its' songs have questionable lyrics is immaterial---you can find plenty of examples that are G-rated if thats your actual concern. And if you're including the Beat Generation, some of that stuff is not exactly family friendly either. Not a shock that this double standard is in place, but still annoying.

    Of course, I would likely want to not include the Beat Generation for entirely petty reasons, such as the fact that I think they're terrible.

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  • AtomikaAtomika (citation needed)Registered User regular
    Cervetus wrote: »
    It's a good thing we still have Rock and Roll and Country music though, with their perpetually wholesome messages.

    Modern evangelicals like to pretend that Rock and Roll stopped being recorded after Elvis died, and Country music didn't start recording until Garth Brooks arrived.

    Anything beyond that range is lalalalalalalalalalalalaallcanthearyoulalalalalalalalsorrytooloudlalalala

  • The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Camui wrote: »
    And take responsibility? It's far easier to just blame the people in charge. On a serious note, people who have a problem with this and do nothing to fight it aren't all that much better than the nuts doing the changes.

    Well, I keep tabs on what my daughter is learning and make it a point to instill my own social and academic values on her rather than trust that her school is being a good daddy. That's not really fighting the system, but it hardly makes me on par with Joe Nutbar over there, trying to strike inconvenient opinions from the history books.

    rarrr, Jeffe. History's not about "opinions" just because interpretation of events and records can differ. This wouldn't be as big an issue if the board were just trying to include such alternate interpretations, but they're not really doing that. They're trying to turn the study of history into a series of lectures outlining a weird form of american-fundamentalist mythology, a mythology that only survives if you selectively ignore many sources and distort others. The damage this kind of "education" does to a kid's ability to think critically is at least as big a problem as the intended content of the lectures.

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  • ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    Cervetus wrote: »
    It's a good thing we still have Rock and Roll and Country music though, with their perpetually wholesome messages.

    Modern evangelicals like to pretend that Rock and Roll stopped being recorded after Elvis died, and Country music didn't start recording until Garth Brooks arrived.

    Anything beyond that range is lalalalalalalalalalalalaallcanthearyoulalalalalalalalsorrytooloudlalalala

    Also, none of those art forms existed when non-christians or non-whites were producing them.

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    The only reason to take away Jefferson status of a USA founder is so they can make the proclamation that all the founders were Christian (which is far from truth, but these people believe that God made men from dirt).

    It's purely a religious move.

    It's more that Jefferson is the author of the concept of separation of church and state in US governance.

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  • GogoKodoGogoKodo Registered User regular
    Cognisseur wrote: »
    Uh... so they're going to vote today I hear? So they opened up the day with prayers naturally, and kept it totally bias free.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdhGK9aYjDY&feature=player_embedded
    ("a Christian land governed by Christian principles")

    Nobody else is commentating on this? Maybe everyone else already knew this is how it goes down but to me it seems incredibly weird that a Board of Education meeting would start with something like that. Not to mention the fact that she says a bunch of stuff that's just plain wrong.

  • psychoticdreampsychoticdream Registered User
    Cognisseur wrote: »
    Uh... so they're going to vote today I hear? So they opened up the day with prayers naturally, and kept it totally bias free.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdhGK9aYjDY&feature=player_embedded
    ("a Christian land governed by Christian principles")

    jesus h. freaking christ on a stick i honestly hoped it wasnt this bad but ... wow...

  • corcorigancorcorigan Registered User
    Cognisseur wrote: »
    Uh... so they're going to vote today I hear? So they opened up the day with prayers naturally, and kept it totally bias free.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdhGK9aYjDY&feature=player_embedded
    ("a Christian land governed by Christian principles")

    jesus h. freaking christ on a stick i honestly hoped it wasnt this bad but ... wow...

    I thought you guys were supposed to have a separate church and state?

    It's incredible that state officials are that blazingly open about it.

    Ad Astra Per Aspera
  • nukanuka What are circles? Registered User regular
    corcorigan wrote: »
    Cognisseur wrote: »
    Uh... so they're going to vote today I hear? So they opened up the day with prayers naturally, and kept it totally bias free.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdhGK9aYjDY&feature=player_embedded
    ("a Christian land governed by Christian principles")

    jesus h. freaking christ on a stick i honestly hoped it wasnt this bad but ... wow...

    I thought you guys were supposed to have a separate church and state?

    It's incredible that state officials are that blazingly open about it.
    This country was founded by the Puritans. The Republican Party is basically the Christian White Males Only Party. People in this country can be very religious.

    This really isn't surprising, it would be surprising only if someone was trying to pull that religious stuff and someone stood up and said "Woah now."
    I mean we have In God We Trust on our money and One Nation Under God in our Pledge of Allegiance, of which in some schools you can get into trouble if you don't say it. It's not illegal, but you'll piss off the school and make it a huge deal and if you live in a small town your community will probably hate you because you're now that guy. Oh and Christians aren't typically the nicest people when it comes to realizing that you're not one of them. (I know not all Christians are like this, but I've met characters from both sides of the fence.)
    So really this is just America. Also a Texan small town, I mean really this is business as usual.

  • ElitistbElitistb Registered User regular
    nuka wrote: »
    So really this is just America. Also a Texan small town, I mean really this is business as usual.
    A Texan small town? This is a meeting of the Texas State Board of Education in AUSTIN. This is not small town.

    Did I mention that Austin is considered hella liberal by the rest of the state's standards?

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  • nukanuka What are circles? Registered User regular
    Elitistb wrote: »
    nuka wrote: »
    So really this is just America. Also a Texan small town, I mean really this is business as usual.
    A Texan small town? This is a meeting of the Texas State Board of Education in AUSTIN. This is not small town.

    Did I mention that Austin is considered hella liberal by the rest of the state's standards?

    I apologize, I must have missed that.

    Either way I still don't find what they're doing to be surprising, minus location now.

  • ElitistbElitistb Registered User regular
    A sad state of affairs that is doubly sad because this behavior is performed and it is performed so often that I have trouble mustering anger. I'm in the pity stage.

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  • AtomikaAtomika (citation needed)Registered User regular
    Elitistb wrote: »
    nuka wrote: »
    So really this is just America. Also a Texan small town, I mean really this is business as usual.
    A Texan small town? This is a meeting of the Texas State Board of Education in AUSTIN. This is not small town.

    Did I mention that Austin is considered hella liberal by the rest of the state's standards?

    How many of the representatives there are representing Austin or Travis County? I'm curious, because Austin isn't just "hella liberal by the rest of the state's standards," it's pretty much hella liberal.

  • emnmnmeemnmnme Heard about this on conservative radio:Registered User regular
    Extremely religious people should not work for the government. I don't know why they chose to run for an elected position considering a government official needs to show religious tolerance to make fair policies. The Bible and the secular State don't jive so a devout Christian would have to compromise their faith almost daily to do their job properly.

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  • TaramoorTaramoor Registered User regular
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Extremely religious people should not work for the government. I don't know why they chose to run for an elected position considering a government official needs to show religious tolerance to make fair policies. The Bible and the secular State don't jive so a devout Christian would have to compromise their faith almost daily to do their job properly.

    These people have no interest in making fair policies or doing their job properly.

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Elitistb wrote: »
    nuka wrote: »
    So really this is just America. Also a Texan small town, I mean really this is business as usual.
    A Texan small town? This is a meeting of the Texas State Board of Education in AUSTIN. This is not small town.

    Did I mention that Austin is considered hella liberal by the rest of the state's standards?

    How many of the representatives there are representing Austin or Travis County? I'm curious, because Austin isn't just "hella liberal by the rest of the state's standards," it's pretty much hella liberal.

    There's 15 of them, assume equal population, so maybe one.

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  • mynameisguidomynameisguido Registered User regular
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Extremely religious people should not work for the government. I don't know why they chose to run for an elected position considering a government official needs to show religious tolerance to make fair policies. The Bible and the secular State don't jive so a devout Christian would have to compromise their faith almost daily to do their job properly.

    There are plenty of people who can be Christian and fair-minded at the same time. It just happens to be that some of these folks are not so.

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  • psychoticdreampsychoticdream Registered User
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Extremely religious people should not work for the government. I don't know why they chose to run for an elected position considering a government official needs to show religious tolerance to make fair policies. The Bible and the secular State don't jive so a devout Christian would have to compromise their faith almost daily to do their job properly.

    There are plenty of people who can be Christian and fair-minded at the same time. It just happens to be that some of these folks are not so.

    in the southern states they throw around the word god and christian like some kind of secret word/badge of honor

    if you arent christian you are not american is pretty much the consensus.

  • KalTorakKalTorak Registered User regular
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Extremely religious people should not work for the government. I don't know why they chose to run for an elected position considering a government official needs to show religious tolerance to make fair policies. The Bible and the secular State don't jive so a devout Christian would have to compromise their faith almost daily to do their job properly.

    There are plenty of people who can be Christian and fair-minded at the same time. It just happens to be that some of these folks are not so.

    I'd say that people who can be Christian and also fair-minded don't really count (to me) as "extremely religious".

    When you can't do your job (whatever it is, barring being a clergymember) without injecting your religion into every aspect of it whether it belongs there or not, you're extremely religious. Also possibly a religious extremist.

  • MelksterMelkster Registered User regular
    Elitistb wrote: »
    nuka wrote: »
    So really this is just America. Also a Texan small town, I mean really this is business as usual.
    A Texan small town? This is a meeting of the Texas State Board of Education in AUSTIN. This is not small town.

    Did I mention that Austin is considered hella liberal by the rest of the state's standards?

    How many of the representatives there are representing Austin or Travis County? I'm curious, because Austin isn't just "hella liberal by the rest of the state's standards," it's pretty much hella liberal.

    Two representatives represent part of Travis County - and they're both Republicans.

    Ken Mercer & Cynthia Noland Dunbar.

    The reason for that is just the way they've drawn the district lines. Both those individuals pretty much split Travis county down the middle - and then they have half of all the surrounding counties - Hays, Williamson, etc. These are ridiculously conservative areas (Williamson county in particular is pretty much where all the Religious Right folks get together. *Edit: And yeah, it shows by that video above. Cynthia Dunbar is the one giving the "prayer" above, and she was basically elected by Williamson County).

    If you look at the District Map you can see how the lines are pretty much drawn in order go dilute the more liberal, population-heavy city areas. The result is 10 Republicans (66%) and 5 Democrats (33%) - whereas the State in general is not even close to being that Republican -- In the 2008 Presidential election, 55% of voters voted Republican, and 43% voted Democrat.

  • SynthesisSynthesis Registered User regular
    Scalfin wrote: »
    Cervetus wrote: »
    It's a good thing we still have Rock and Roll and Country music though, with their perpetually wholesome messages.

    Modern evangelicals like to pretend that Rock and Roll stopped being recorded after Elvis died, and Country music didn't start recording until Garth Brooks arrived.

    Anything beyond that range is lalalalalalalalalalalalaallcanthearyoulalalalalalalalsorrytooloudlalalala

    Also, none of those art forms existed when non-christians or non-whites were producing them.

    I did not know that evangelicals were big into music.

    Killing communists, trade unionists, and indigenous people in South America? That I knew. But I honestly did not know they had specific grievances with music. Besides producing all that god-awful Christian rock or whatever it is.

    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
    Isn't "Your sarcasm makes me wet," the highest compliment an Abh can pay a human?

    Only if said Abh is a member of the nobility.
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