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The fighting of the Bulls

ShogunShogun Hair long; money long; me and broke wizards we don't get alongRegistered User regular
edited May 2010 in Debate and/or Discourse
I did a quick search here and in SE++ because I figured it would come up in SE a lot faster but I couldn't find anything.

Anyone seen this?

As much as I would love to post the pics straight up in the thread I don't think it would be a good idea and I'm warning everyone now that the images and video clip in that news post are EXTREMELY GRAPHIC.

So Julio Aparicio is one of Spain's most prominent bullfighters. During a bullfight that was taking place during a festival called the Festival of St. Isidro the guy was gored through his throat. Frankly I feel like he got a taste of his own medicine and I do not feel sorry for him in the slightest. However I wanted to know what D&D thought of bullfighting.

Bullfighting is considered a blood sport and considered by many to be incredibly cruel. The bulls are basically tortured leading up to the fight and then they die a slow painful death in front of 25,000 screaming people. Bullfighting is popular in Spain, Portugal, and some parts of France.

I think bullfighting is disgusting and is a representation of the lower parts of mankind. Yes there is a lot of culture attached especially in places like Spain but for me cultural relativity can only go so far. According to a Gallup poll in 2002 almost 70% of Spaniards claimed to have little to no interest in bullfighting. Good for you Spain so why not just do away with it?

So D&D what is your take on this brutal blood sport and how do you feel for Julio and his fellow matadors? Also someone told me that matador translated means killer or murderer but I don't think that's true. Anyone know for sure?

Shogun on
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Posts

  • Jason ToddJason Todd Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Matador does mean killer, according to both my Spanish classes and wikipedia.

    I think bull-fighting is on the same ethical level as any sort of animal fighting: completely unacceptable. I find it ludicrous that we demonize dog fighting, but tolerate bull fighting. It is never ethical to torture another animal, especially not for sport.

    It has been my experience that bull fighting defenders rely on the "culture" defense, but that's laughable. There is a long tradition of slavery in the West, to cite only one example. Tradition does not justify the continuation of a horrid practice.

    Edit: As far as the matador who was gored through the throat goes, I wish he had been gored sooner.

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  • EnigEnig a.k.a. Ansatz Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Animal cruelty is animal cruelty, and there is no justification for it, period.

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  • Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    wow that is gross.

    bullfighting is stupid.

    it's hard to really criticize cruelty to a few bulls when we are mindbogglingly cruel to millions and millions of animals in our own nation, though.

    Inquisitor wrote: »
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  • Just Like ThatJust Like That Registered User
    edited May 2010
    It's pretty much animal torture, yeah. Also very stupid.

    I'd like to see fair bullfights, wherein the matador is naked and unarmed. I think the outcome would be different and more enjoyable.

  • PolloDiabloPolloDiablo Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    I would be surprised if anyone came out in favor of it. We're a bunch of liberals, and there are probably not a lot of traditionalist Spaniards around.

    edit: God damn, I just looked at the pictures. He's gonna be living off of jello for a while. But what bullshit is this? More matadors came in and killed the bull. Fuck that shit, it won fair and square. It should be set free to roam the streets.

    Be excellent to each other you stupid cunts.
  • Jason ToddJason Todd Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    I would be surprised if anyone came out in favor of it. We're a bunch of liberals, and there are probably not a lot of traditionalist Spaniards around.

    I've seen plenty of supposedly liberal young Americans defend it as the sacrosanct tradition of another culture, which we have no right to criticize.

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  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Jason Todd wrote: »
    I would be surprised if anyone came out in favor of it. We're a bunch of liberals, and there are probably not a lot of traditionalist Spaniards around.

    I've seen plenty of supposedly liberal young Americans defend it as the sacrosanct tradition of another culture, which we have no right to criticize.

    Fuck it. Let them have their culture then.

    I'm still rooting for the bull.

  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    I would be surprised if anyone came out in favor of it. We're a bunch of liberals, and there are probably not a lot of traditionalist Spaniards around.

    edit: God damn, I just looked at the pictures. He's gonna be living off of jello for a while. But what bullshit is this? More matadors came in and killed the bull. Fuck that shit, it won fair and square. It should be set free to roam the Stands.

    fixed for ultimate justice.

    Spoiler:
  • LoveIsUnityLoveIsUnity Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Yeah, I'm pretty much always rooting for the animals in these cases.

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  • ShogunShogun Hair long; money long; me and broke wizards we don't get along Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Jason Todd wrote: »
    I would be surprised if anyone came out in favor of it. We're a bunch of liberals, and there are probably not a lot of traditionalist Spaniards around.

    I've seen plenty of supposedly liberal young Americans defend it as the sacrosanct tradition of another culture, which we have no right to criticize.

    See this for me is where cultural relativity goes out the window.

  • piLpiL Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    it's hard to really criticize cruelty to a few bulls when we are mindbogglingly cruel to millions and millions of animals in our own nation, though.

    I somehow rationalize eating meat, even though the amount of cruelty connected to my regular consumption of meat is probably magnitudes larger than the whole bullfighting thing; smaller crowds though. So yeah, if I lived in Spain, and thought it was cool to watch every so often, or was a traditionalist member of the culture, I'd probably be O.K. with it.

    When people say they're rooting for the animal in these cases, I wonder how internally consistent that really is. Would these people, given the option to save one life, choose a cow over a meat eater, or is it something specific about the celebrity and the sport attached to the animal suffering? Even if that is the case, do they really believe the life of a bull is worth more than the life of a human?

    Then again, I also feel that I would try to save a convicted man, just to have him executed. So these people probably aren't rooting for the animal so much as they're rooting for the man to die, I suppose. That's probably a different feeling.

  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    This shit is about as sacrosanct as bear baiting. The sport of nobles. Queen Elizabeth I overruled Parliament when it attempted to ban bear baiting on Sundays. Despite that, that didn't stop England from banning bear baiting because it is fucking cruel.

  • Pi-r8Pi-r8 Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    I would be surprised if anyone came out in favor of it. We're a bunch of liberals, and there are probably not a lot of traditionalist Spaniards around.

    edit: God damn, I just looked at the pictures. He's gonna be living off of jello for a while. But what bullshit is this? More matadors came in and killed the bull. Fuck that shit, it won fair and square. It should be set free to roam the streets.

    apparently if the fight goes on long enough, they'll just bring out a gun and shoot the bull. It's really not supposed to win.

  • Jason ToddJason Todd Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    wow that is gross.

    bullfighting is stupid.

    it's hard to really criticize cruelty to a few bulls when we are mindbogglingly cruel to millions and millions of animals in our own nation, though.

    It's a little easier for vegetarians / vegans to criticize it, I suppose.

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  • Witch_Hunter_84Witch_Hunter_84 Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Well to be fair Parliament never tried to outlaw bear baiting because they thought it was inhumane, they just wanted to limit places where Papists and rebels could meet to plot. The humane element didn't come into the equation till about the last hundred or so years I think.

    If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten in your presence.
  • KalTorakKalTorak Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Jason Todd wrote: »
    wow that is gross.

    bullfighting is stupid.

    it's hard to really criticize cruelty to a few bulls when we are mindbogglingly cruel to millions and millions of animals in our own nation, though.

    It's a little easier for vegetarians / vegans to criticize it, I suppose.

    Besides, people eat those animals (or are healthier because of drugs tested on them, not sure which you're talking about here). And as far as I know, most meat-packing plants don't go out of their way to torture cattle for hours. Seems like a shot with the pressure gun and they're down and out.

  • ShogunShogun Hair long; money long; me and broke wizards we don't get along Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Couscous wrote: »
    This shit is about as sacrosanct as bear baiting. The sport of nobles. Queen Elizabeth I overruled Parliament when it attempted to ban bear baiting on Sundays. Despite that, that didn't stop England from banning bear baiting because it is fucking cruel.

    What is bear baiting? I've never heard of this.

  • DuffelDuffel Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Shogun wrote: »
    What is bear baiting? I've never heard of this.
    You basically tie a bear to a post and sic a bunch of crazy mad dogs on it I believe

  • Jason ToddJason Todd Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    KalTorak wrote: »
    Jason Todd wrote: »
    wow that is gross.

    bullfighting is stupid.

    it's hard to really criticize cruelty to a few bulls when we are mindbogglingly cruel to millions and millions of animals in our own nation, though.

    It's a little easier for vegetarians / vegans to criticize it, I suppose.

    Besides, people eat those animals (or are healthier because of drugs tested on them, not sure which you're talking about here). And as far as I know, most meat-packing plants don't go out of their way to torture cattle for hours. Seems like a shot with the pressure gun and they're down and out.

    He was probably referencing factory farming, which is rather cruel.

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  • KalTorakKalTorak Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Shogun wrote: »
    Couscous wrote: »
    This shit is about as sacrosanct as bear baiting. The sport of nobles. Queen Elizabeth I overruled Parliament when it attempted to ban bear baiting on Sundays. Despite that, that didn't stop England from banning bear baiting because it is fucking cruel.

    What is bear baiting? I've never heard of this.

    IIRC, something they did back in Shakespearean times. Catch a bear, chain it in a ring, chuck a pack of vicious dogs in the ring with it. Take bets on who wins, or how many dogs go down before the bear dies.

    ed: there's also the dancing bear spectacle, where you chain a bear onto a metal platform and heat up the platform until it "dances."

  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Well to be fair Parliament never tried to outlaw bear baiting because they thought it was inhumane, they just wanted to limit places where Papists and rebels could meet to plot. The humane element didn't come into the equation till about the last hundred or so years I think.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruelty_to_Animals_Act_1835
    Animal welfare groups had succeeded in passing laws against it in the 1800s.
    RSPCA lobbied parliament throughout the 19th century resulting in a number of pieces of legislation. The Cruelty to Animals Act 1835 amended Martin's Act and outlawed baiting. In 1876 the Cruelty to Animals Act was passed to control animal experimentation. In 1911 Parliament passed Sir George Greenwood's Animal Protection Act.


    Hell, the stupid sport isn't even that ingrained in the culture.
    A 2002 Gallup poll found that 68.8% of Spaniards express "no interest" in bullfighting while 20.6% expressed "some interest" and 10.4% "a lot of interest." The poll also found significant generational variety, with 51% of those 65 and older expressing interest, compared with 23% of those between 25–34 years of age. Popularity also varies significantly according to regions in Spain with it being least popular in Galicia and Catalonia with 81% and 79% of those polled expressing no interest. Interest is greatest in the zones of the north, centre, east and south, with around 37% declaring themselves fans and 63% having no interest.[20]

  • ShogunShogun Hair long; money long; me and broke wizards we don't get along Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Duffel wrote: »
    Shogun wrote: »
    What is bear baiting? I've never heard of this.
    You basically tie a bear to a post and sic a bunch of crazy mad dogs on it I believe

    D:

  • FencingsaxFencingsax Bondage Discipline Spider-Man Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Reminds me of Hot Fuzz.

    It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it
  • Just Like ThatJust Like That Registered User
    edited May 2010
    piL wrote: »
    When people say they're rooting for the animal in these cases, I wonder how internally consistent that really is. Would these people, given the option to save one life, choose a cow over a meat eater, or is it something specific about the celebrity and the sport attached to the animal suffering? Even if that is the case, do they really believe the life of a bull is worth more than the life of a human?

    I don't have sympathy for people who voluntarily participate in bullfighting. They are consciously choosing to:

    1. Step into a ring with a bull
    2. Torture and then kill it for no reason other than amusement

    Which makes them both stupid and mean. Obviously, the bull has no choice in the matter. So yeah, I root for the bull.

  • ParadisoParadiso Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    I watched a bull fight this month in Madrid. It is not an experience I care to repeat. I didn't take any pictures. Those are memories that are going to stick with me for the rest of my life.

    But please spare me the "I'm rooting for the bulls" idiocy. It might feel good to say, but I watched a matador get hurt pretty badly out there in the plaza and there is no satisfaction to be found in it.

  • nstfnstf __BANNED USERS
    edited May 2010
    KalTorak wrote: »
    Jason Todd wrote: »
    wow that is gross.

    bullfighting is stupid.

    it's hard to really criticize cruelty to a few bulls when we are mindbogglingly cruel to millions and millions of animals in our own nation, though.

    It's a little easier for vegetarians / vegans to criticize it, I suppose.

    Besides, people eat those animals (or are healthier because of drugs tested on them, not sure which you're talking about here). And as far as I know, most meat-packing plants don't go out of their way to torture cattle for hours. Seems like a shot with the pressure gun and they're down and out.

    Fun story I used to work at a Steakhouse, that sells prime beef to rich fuckers (it's not that good though, compared to other places that spike into the 200 a plate area). They electrocute the cows via probe up anus, and it's painless. Reasons for doing this have something to do with anal tissue, none the less it made me look at beef dinner a bit odd when dining out.

    The "cruel" to millions and millions mostly stems from a lot of really bad plants, and a lot of lunatics that then assume all plants are like this, not the case. Yeah, more are bad then good, but lets not slam the entire meat industry as being a bunch of monsters.

    You can also find "safe meat", by which I mean locally grown and slaughtered animals. This isn't practical for most people, and I blame the entire food industry for it, but you can get a free range pig or cow, killed by the farmer and cut up for you as well, at a decent price. Same goes for hogs, hens, lamb, it's actually rather economical.

    I can go in on a hog and get off cheap, and it's an animal I know was raise well and is doubly tasty to boot.

    Meat is good for you, the vegan line is rather insane here. Soy protein has issues, at best you've got whey (which many people are allergic to) which has it's own problems. Nothing wrong with a correctly sized steak or chop, served up with a healthy portion of veg on the side. But there is a crap ton fucked about your generic prison grade fatty roast eaten with potatoes and cheese.

    And yes dude had it coming, you fuck with animals and they react. Chalk my sympathy level on this one up to Timmothy Treadwell and his "I got ate by a bear" stupdity.

  • quovadis13quovadis13 Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    When I was in Spain a few years ago, I ended up in Pamplona during their San Fermin festival (a.k.a their running of the bulls). I actually watched a bullfight there as well, and it was an interesting experience. The entire show is a spectacle that I wont forget, but I am glad I saw it. I am not opposed to the idea of bullfighting, but I dont have the desire to see another bullfight anytime soon. They are gory, but I don't feel they are that gory. They actually tended to become rather predictable by the end of the evening.


    For those of you who have never actually seen a bullfight or know what actually happens during one, there are a few articles written by a columnist from ESPN a few years ago about being in Pamplona and the whole experience.

    The bullfight itself

    The running of the bulls

  • UnbreakableVowUnbreakableVow Don't fuck with a witch Time to go VROOM!Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    I've always wanted to see a bullfight in person

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  • The Green Eyed MonsterThe Green Eyed Monster i blame hip hop Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    I would be surprised if anyone came out in favor of it. We're a bunch of liberals, and there are probably not a lot of traditionalist Spaniards around.
    I actually went to a bullfight, and I found it a fairly profound experience.

    I've thought about writing more in depth about it, to be perfectly honest, as my short description will definitely miss some of the details here. Basically it was just really instructive about the nature of cruelty, machismo, and the animal in man and all that. There's a reason Hemingway was so obsessed with it. To see those guys strut out there in their traje de luces, just oozing sexuality, carefully and artfully dominating a bull in a weird, animalistic dance really sucked me in more than one would expect just based on the superficial description. The experience of being in a crowd in an ancient stadium where there were butt grooves worked into the stone seating all over enhances it, and then feeling yourself being involuntarily pulled into the whole mob mentality of cheering for a bull's death is pretty much the only time I've ever been able to personally feel the sensation of losing your mind a bit in a crowd that is so frequently described.

    They kill six bulls over the night, and I thought the first murder was one of the more horrific things I'd ever seen. What I didn't realize at the time, as explained to me by a tour guide afterwards, was that was one of the quickest deaths you'll ever see, but sitting up in the stands and seeing it felt like my whole chest was being seized and it took a real act of will to keep looking. The sword just thrust in between the shoulder blades, the bull bucked about two to three times, extremely violently, then just fell over and died. All the others got longer and more grotesque, including one that got thrust at twice with the sword (because the first bounced off the shoulder blades), before walking around coughing up blood with the sword lodged in it, finally falling over to the cheers of the crowd after what felt like an eternity, only to have the bull stand back up before someone came in with the small knife they use to stab it in the spinal cord and sever the brain from the nervous system in attempt to be "humane." What was perhaps even weirder, more chilling, was the quickness with which I inured myself to the violence. By the end, after just six bulls, I felt like a connosieur, carefully judging the matador's performance and admiring the bull's valor in the face of impossible odds. It seemed like some dark art by the end, and the killing strike was judged on style, not on its ability to evoke a reaction in me. That was already over.

    There's lot more detail to fill in, but the point of it is this -- never before in my sheltered little life have I felt so tangibly in contact with the more primitive elements of humanity, and in fact it was a beautiful, beautiful performance, if also cruel.

    I probably wouldn't go to a second bullfight, although I wouldn't preclude it on principle, but I definitely wouldn't deem to judge a cultural ritual that others enjoy. It is cruel, it is nasty, it is violent, but if you don't believe such things are commonplace, in fact ubiquitous, in the natural world, then you're being naive. As another poster said, simply participating in modern society probably does something to contribute to horrific suffering of an animal somewhere. It's a little tricky to be completely altruistic about this. It's man v. beast. It's a part of our history, it's a part of who we are. And to say you're rooting for the bull is to just be ignorant, if you ask me.

    Soooo ... I dunno ... I can't necessarily defend it, like if it went away I wouldn't terribly miss it or anything, but I think those who are passing judgment without having actually seen one in person don't necessarily know what they're talking about in this instance.

    wisdom wrote:
    if knowledge is power and power corrupts, be smart, be evil
  • quovadis13quovadis13 Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Green Eyed Monster, you just hit the nail directly on the head. You and I had fairly similar experiences during our bullfights. I kind of knew what to expect heading in (had seen a few glimpses of a bullfight on tv before I went), so the violence wasnt as big a shock. The whole horse and pony show that surrounds each bull was what stuck with me. And like you, by the third or fourth bull, I found myself almost judging the matadors on their style and efficiency during the fight.

    It was a strangely enlightening experience.

  • Just Like ThatJust Like That Registered User
    edited May 2010
    Wait, so.... since you enjoyed it, you think it's okay? And since violence happens in nature, it's fine to be violent? Riight. I'm guessing torture falls under your definition of violence, though I can't say I've ever seen it happen in nature.

    You guys would have loved the Colosseum.

  • Witch_Hunter_84Witch_Hunter_84 Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    So would you if you had lived at the time.

    If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten in your presence.
  • Bionic MonkeyBionic Monkey Registered User, ClubPA
    edited May 2010
    Hey, people enjoy dog fights too, right? So those must be okay.

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  • The Green Eyed MonsterThe Green Eyed Monster i blame hip hop Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    quovadis13 wrote: »
    Green Eyed Monster, you just hit the nail directly on the head. You and I had fairly similar experiences during our bullfights. I kind of knew what to expect heading in (had seen a few glimpses of a bullfight on tv before I went), so the violence wasnt as big a shock. The whole horse and pony show that surrounds each bull was what stuck with me. And like you, by the third or fourth bull, I found myself almost judging the matadors on their style and efficiency during the fight.

    It was a strangely enlightening experience.
    I went to my fight about 10 years ago, and it still sticks with me very strongly. I get glimpses of it in my memory when certain events trigger me to think about it, and I've evolved in my thinking about it over the years, considering different elements -- the violence at first, the whole crowd spectacle of it at times, eventually trying to wrap my head around the undeniable sexuality of it all, at times having it help my understanding of history even, when I read about public executions or violent religious rituals.

    It really did completely change the way I thought about Hemingway, too, reading Rising Sun shortly after I saw that fight, then going on to study his work in college.

    Anyway, yeah -- there's a lot more to it than just killing a bull for public spectacle.

    wisdom wrote:
    if knowledge is power and power corrupts, be smart, be evil
  • Witch_Hunter_84Witch_Hunter_84 Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Hey, people enjoy dog fights too, right? So those must be okay.

    No one's saying they're okay, I don't even think that TGEM's entire post even alluded to the concept of it being okay. We are a violent, predatory species, and this type of thing has been part of our culture since literally the dawn of civilization. I think the point was that you should factor that in to your logic before passing judgement.

    It takes a lot more than less than a hundred years of PETA activism to enlighten a species.

    If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten in your presence.
  • The Green Eyed MonsterThe Green Eyed Monster i blame hip hop Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Wait, so.... since you enjoyed it, you think it's okay? And since violence happens in nature, it's fine to be violent? Riight. I'm guessing torture falls under your definition of violence, though I can't say I've ever seen it happen in nature.

    You guys would have loved the Colosseum.
    Well, I suppose I did enjoy it, although it didn't feel that way at the time. I think in the end it was a beneficial experience that I value, which was relatively painless compared to my first heart break or the first time I was bullied by a group of kids, both valuable experiences of their own in the long run but saying I "enjoyed it" doesn't feel right.

    And loving the Colosseum would hardly make us unique or perverse. As a matter of fact, we'd be in that stone building, one of the great structures of Roman architecture, soaking it all up and loving the ritual along with everyone else, Emperor included. That's the point, it's part of who we are, and you're sarcastic response trying to paint me as perverse or backwards only makes you look like the ignorant one in my eyes.

    wisdom wrote:
    if knowledge is power and power corrupts, be smart, be evil
  • So It GoesSo It Goes Well, that seems pretty ludicrous.Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Yeah I'm okay with condemning it without going to one. Sorry.

    NOPE.
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  • The Green Eyed MonsterThe Green Eyed Monster i blame hip hop Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    So It Goes wrote: »
    Yeah I'm okay with condemning it without going to one. Sorry.
    Do you universally oppose hunting for sport as well, or is it just the drawn out cruelty of a bull fight that offends you?

    wisdom wrote:
    if knowledge is power and power corrupts, be smart, be evil
  • So It GoesSo It Goes Well, that seems pretty ludicrous.Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    So It Goes wrote: »
    Yeah I'm okay with condemning it without going to one. Sorry.
    Do you universally oppose hunting for sport as well, or is it just the drawn out cruelty of a bull fight that offends you?

    The cruelty.

    Hunters can be cruel, and I condemn those that are, but I recognize you can hunt without being unnecessarily cruel.

    No bullfight exists that is not drawn out and cruel to the animal.


    I'm not angry about your story though and I understand what you are saying.

    NOPE.
    Vd0n7Bk.jpg
  • The Green Eyed MonsterThe Green Eyed Monster i blame hip hop Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    And something else I find darkly humorous about the whole enterprise -- they "test" all the bulls beforehand, you know, to see if they will just continue repeatedly charging the armored horses to no avail, or if they will wise up and stop chasing a fruitless effort. All the ones that show enough intelligence to do something besides just act a slave to their testosterone and charge the horse are actually put out to pasture, never to fight. The aggressive, warlike ones are the ones that must eventually enter the ring.

    Reminds me of the Radiolab story about the breeding of domestic foxes. Pretty interesting if you really look at it all, if you ask me.

    wisdom wrote:
    if knowledge is power and power corrupts, be smart, be evil
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