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The fighting of the Bulls

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Posts

  • Just Like ThatJust Like That Registered User
    edited May 2010
    Saying "it's part of who we are" when you know that it is wrong is a weak ass defense.

  • The Green Eyed MonsterThe Green Eyed Monster i blame hip hop Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    So It Goes wrote: »
    So It Goes wrote: »
    Yeah I'm okay with condemning it without going to one. Sorry.
    Do you universally oppose hunting for sport as well, or is it just the drawn out cruelty of a bull fight that offends you?

    The cruelty.

    Hunters can be cruel, and I condemn those that are, but I recognize you can hunt without being unnecessarily cruel.

    No bullfight exists that is not drawn out and cruel to the animal.


    I'm not angry about your story though and I understand what you are saying.
    That's fair, I was just asking to understand your opposition.

    You won't hear me deny its cruelty. I think the cruelty is a central component of the performance, especially since it's actually a bizarre, misguided cruelty which is actually meant to valorize the bull. After you watch six perform, you really start to feel like you "know" the animal as well. Some are more brave and heroic than others in raising their opposition, and these are all factors which go into your "rating" or the "greatness" of each fight. You actually end up admiring them just as much as you admire the matador. It's really weird.

    wisdom wrote:
    if knowledge is power and power corrupts, be smart, be evil
  • CorvusCorvus Caw? VancouverRegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    I'm pretty much in the "bullfighting is lame" camp. Torturing animals, or people, for entertainment is not something I can condone.

  • Witch_Hunter_84Witch_Hunter_84 Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Saying "it's part of who we are" when you know that it is wrong is a weak ass defense.

    Your view of what's wrong is a matter of perspective. To crowds of people in Spain it's not wrong, it's tradition.

    If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten in your presence.
  • legionofonelegionofone __BANNED USERS
    edited May 2010
    Self righteous condemnation?

    On my internet? Well I never.

    TEGM, thanks for sharing that. I'm glad you could share something that personal in an honest manner.

    "They have shit," Krause said. "Rights my ass. 'Rights'. Nobody has any fucking rights unless they've got a machine gun."
  • The Green Eyed MonsterThe Green Eyed Monster i blame hip hop Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Saying "it's part of who we are" when you know that it is wrong is a weak ass defense.
    I think I actually said, like literally said the very words, that I can't really defend it.

    It's kinda like how sometimes I really, really want to ogle women, even though I know it's inappropriate given the setting. It's not really defensible, but then again, it's part of who I am.

    If that seems like a ridiculous statement to you, all I can say is that I would predict that you, much like me, would be surprised to the extent to which you can get sucked into a bullfight when all your rational self is trying to tell you what a repugnant thing you are watching.

    wisdom wrote:
    if knowledge is power and power corrupts, be smart, be evil
  • UnbreakableVowUnbreakableVow Klonoa of the Wind WAHOO!Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Saying "it's part of who we are" when you know that it is wrong is a weak ass defense.

    Not really

    I think quite a bit of things that human beings do are disgusting and wrong

    But I deal with it, because it is part of what we are

    BwQ9Ecd.jpg?1
    Magya! | Sometimes I stream PS4 games here | PSN: UnbreakableVow
  • So It GoesSo It Goes Well, that seems pretty ludicrous.Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Saying "it's part of who we are" when you know that it is wrong is a weak ass defense.

    Your view of what's wrong is a matter of perspective. To crowds of people in Spain it's not wrong, it's tradition.

    Did you see the stat posted of how many people in Spain actually care about bullfighting.

    NOPE.
    Vd0n7Bk.jpg
  • override367override367 Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Corvus wrote: »
    I'm pretty much in the "bullfighting is lame" camp. Torturing animals, or people, for entertainment is not something I can condone.

    I think I might be able to sit and not muster rage if I heard say... Rush Limbaugh was being tortured, but I don't know if he counts as a person or animal.

    Beyond that I agree.

    XBLIVE: Biggestoverride
    League of Legends: override367
  • Witch_Hunter_84Witch_Hunter_84 Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Well, it was banned in Catalonia on December 18th, 2009, and there are several initiatives in Spain that are attacking it on the principle of being humane. But in Barcelona it persisted even when the city took a vote against it, so obviously there are still factors out there that have a demand for the sport.

    If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten in your presence.
  • The Green Eyed MonsterThe Green Eyed Monster i blame hip hop Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    So It Goes wrote: »
    Saying "it's part of who we are" when you know that it is wrong is a weak ass defense.

    Your view of what's wrong is a matter of perspective. To crowds of people in Spain it's not wrong, it's tradition.

    Did you see the stat posted of how many people in Spain actually care about bullfighting.
    Caring / attending / patronizing whatever is different than being morally opposed to something. I would guess the number of people in Spain who are morally opposed is much smaller.

    wisdom wrote:
    if knowledge is power and power corrupts, be smart, be evil
  • So It GoesSo It Goes Well, that seems pretty ludicrous.Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
  • CorvusCorvus Caw? VancouverRegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    So It Goes wrote: »
    tradition.jpg

    :P

    As a former history major, I endorse this tired meme. :P

  • Just Like ThatJust Like That Registered User
    edited May 2010
    Saying "it's part of who we are" when you know that it is wrong is a weak ass defense.

    Your view of what's wrong is a matter of perspective. To crowds of people in Spain it's not wrong, it's tradition.

    And to people in Saudi Arabia, discrimination against women and homosexuals isn't wrong, it's tradition.

    Just like slavery wasn't racism to people in the southern U.S., it was tradition.

    I guess I'm just against the unnecessary killing of things? I find it hard to understand why you need to take a life to be entertained. There are plenty of ways to have fun where nothing dies. This is also the reason I find hunting for sport offensive. You want to hunt? Fine, just do something with the animal after you kill it. Eat it, make it into a coat, whatever.

    Is that such an unreasonable stance?

  • UnbreakableVowUnbreakableVow Klonoa of the Wind WAHOO!Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    I guess I'm just against the unnecessary killing of things? I find it hard to understand why you need to take a life to be entertained. There are plenty of ways to have fun where nothing dies. This is also the reason I find hunting for sport offensive. You want to hunt? Fine, just do something with the animal after you kill it. Eat it, make it into a coat, whatever.

    Is that such an unreasonable stance?

    A lot of hunters who kill for sport do have the animals taken to taxidermists

    BwQ9Ecd.jpg?1
    Magya! | Sometimes I stream PS4 games here | PSN: UnbreakableVow
  • The Green Eyed MonsterThe Green Eyed Monster i blame hip hop Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    I guess I'm just against the unnecessary killing of things? I find it hard to understand why you need to take a life to be entertained. There are plenty of ways to have fun where nothing dies. This is also the reason I find hunting for sport offensive. You want to hunt? Fine, just do something with the animal after you kill it. Eat it, make it into a coat, whatever.

    Is that such an unreasonable stance?
    The bull meat is definitely consumed after the fight. I don't know what they do with any of the other byproducts, but you can go to the local deli and buy the meat right after the fight gets out.

    wisdom wrote:
    if knowledge is power and power corrupts, be smart, be evil
  • Witch_Hunter_84Witch_Hunter_84 Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    It's kind of hard to draw parallels between slavery and discrimination with animal cruelty as being equal to the prior two. I think on the list of severity most people would rank animal cruelty dead last nine times out of ten, plus they would probably add a few other things between slavery and animal cruelty.

    If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten in your presence.
  • Just Like ThatJust Like That Registered User
    edited May 2010
    I guess I'm just against the unnecessary killing of things? I find it hard to understand why you need to take a life to be entertained. There are plenty of ways to have fun where nothing dies. This is also the reason I find hunting for sport offensive. You want to hunt? Fine, just do something with the animal after you kill it. Eat it, make it into a coat, whatever.

    Is that such an unreasonable stance?
    The bull meat is definitely consumed after the fight. I don't know what they do with any of the other byproducts, but you can go to the local deli and buy the meat right after the fight gets out.

    That's great. But the whole method that the meat was obtained is what bothers me.

    With regards to your point about enjoying bullfights on a primal level, maybe I would enjoy one. I also enjoy watching car crashes, but that doesn't mean I want people to crash into each other.

  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    I have no sympathy for the pro-matador position. I am sorry that the matadors live in a society where their best bet in life is to be a dancing animal torturer. If they did this with robots or something that wasn't capable of suffering, -awesome-. I would hella watch people fight mechanical bulls or something. But heaping suffering on an animal does not work within my ethical system. If you want to kill it and eat it, fine. Do so quickly, painlessly, and respectfully, so far as you are able. I've killed things myself over the years, then feasted on their flesh, but I'm not even comfortable with bow hunting simply because it's that much more likely to go wrong and extend the animal's fear and pain, much less a ritual -designed- toward that purpose.

    We have video games for this shit.

    freefallagentad_zps635a83ed.png
  • The Green Eyed MonsterThe Green Eyed Monster i blame hip hop Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    I guess I'm just against the unnecessary killing of things? I find it hard to understand why you need to take a life to be entertained. There are plenty of ways to have fun where nothing dies. This is also the reason I find hunting for sport offensive. You want to hunt? Fine, just do something with the animal after you kill it. Eat it, make it into a coat, whatever.

    Is that such an unreasonable stance?
    The bull meat is definitely consumed after the fight. I don't know what they do with any of the other byproducts, but you can go to the local deli and buy the meat right after the fight gets out.

    That's great. But the whole method that the meat was obtained is what bothers me.

    With regards to your point about enjoying bullfights on a primal level, maybe I would enjoy one. I also enjoy watching car crashes, but that doesn't mean I want people to crash into each other.
    Right, and I don't really want people to torture and kill bulls, but I was in Spain, a group of people I was traveling with were attending a bull fight, my refusal to attend would have affected absolutely nothing except my own rosy little sense of self importance, so I decided to just tag along for the ride, and it ended up being one of the more profound, unique, and memorable experiences of my life, so all told, I'm not really that mad at bullfights.

    Don't want to go to rodeo here in the States, that shit is offensive to me, but the artistry and presentation of a bullfight serve to make a real point that I find interesting. Cruel, yes, definitely, but also interesting. I mean, I'm really just offended at the sentiment of "rooting for the bull." Just root for people to finally become educated and morally sophisticated enough to leave these type of things in the past.

    wisdom wrote:
    if knowledge is power and power corrupts, be smart, be evil
  • 815165815165 Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    I don't get what's wrong with rooting for the bull, it's a competition right?

  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Why the fuck should I care if people get a visceral thrill out of it? People got a visceral thrill out of clubbing animals to death.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_tossing
    The result was often fatal for the tossed animal. Augustus the Strong, the Elector of Saxony, held a famous tossing contest in Dresden in 1648 at which 647 foxes, 533 hares, 34 badgers and 21 wildcats were tossed and killed.[2] Augustus himself participated, reportedly demonstrating his strength by holding the end of his sling by just one finger, with two of the strongest men in his court on the other end. Other rulers also participated in the sport. The Swedish envoy Esaias Pufendorf, witnessing a fox-tossing contest held in Vienna in March 1672, noted in his diary his surprise at seeing the Holy Roman Emperor Leopold I enthusiastically joining the court dwarfs and boys in clubbing to death the injured animals; he commented that it was remarkable to see the emperor having "small boys and fools as comrades, [which] was to my eyes a little alien from the imperial gravity."[3][4]
    I could decide to wait in the hope of people deciding not to do it or people could actually work to get it banned.
    Right, and I don't really want people to torture and kill bulls, but I was in Spain, a group of people I was traveling with were attending a bull fight, my refusal to attend would have affected absolutely nothing except my own rosy little sense of self importance, so I decided to just tag along for the ride, and it ended up being one of the more profound, unique, and memorable experiences of my life, so all told, I'm not really that mad at bullfights.
    You decided to tag along to watch a morally repugnant blood sport. The justification that your actions wouldn't affect anything is a shoddy excuse for actually watching it and applies to every horrid act committed by man in the pursuit of entertainment.

  • Just Like ThatJust Like That Registered User
    edited May 2010
    I guess I'm just against the unnecessary killing of things? I find it hard to understand why you need to take a life to be entertained. There are plenty of ways to have fun where nothing dies. This is also the reason I find hunting for sport offensive. You want to hunt? Fine, just do something with the animal after you kill it. Eat it, make it into a coat, whatever.

    Is that such an unreasonable stance?
    The bull meat is definitely consumed after the fight. I don't know what they do with any of the other byproducts, but you can go to the local deli and buy the meat right after the fight gets out.

    That's great. But the whole method that the meat was obtained is what bothers me.

    With regards to your point about enjoying bullfights on a primal level, maybe I would enjoy one. I also enjoy watching car crashes, but that doesn't mean I want people to crash into each other.
    Right, and I don't really want people to torture and kill bulls, but I was in Spain, a group of people I was traveling with were attending a bull fight, my refusal to attend would have affected absolutely nothing except my own rosy little sense of self importance, so I decided to just tag along for the ride, and it ended up being one of the more profound, unique, and memorable experiences of my life, so all told, I'm not really that mad at bullfights.

    Don't want to go to rodeo here in the States, that shit is offensive to me, but the artistry and presentation of a bullfight serve to make a real point that I find interesting. Cruel, yes, definitely, but also interesting. I mean, I'm really just offended at the sentiment of "rooting for the bull." Just root for people to finally become educated and morally sophisticated enough to leave these type of things in the past.

    Dude, you are contradicting yourself on multiple levels.

    You decided to go to a bullfight. But you want people to become educated and sophisticated enough to not go to bullfights. Your refusal to go to a bullfight would have changed nothing, though.
    It's kind of hard to draw parallels between slavery and discrimination with animal cruelty as being equal to the prior two. I think on the list of severity most people would rank animal cruelty dead last nine times out of ten, plus they would probably add a few other things between slavery and animal cruelty.

    It's not about the severity. I definitely wouldn't say animal cruelty is worse than slavery. I was just pointing out bad things associated with tradition.

  • The Green Eyed MonsterThe Green Eyed Monster i blame hip hop Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Couscous wrote: »
    Right, and I don't really want people to torture and kill bulls, but I was in Spain, a group of people I was traveling with were attending a bull fight, my refusal to attend would have affected absolutely nothing except my own rosy little sense of self importance, so I decided to just tag along for the ride, and it ended up being one of the more profound, unique, and memorable experiences of my life, so all told, I'm not really that mad at bullfights.
    You decided to tag along to watch a morally repugnant blood sport. The justification that your actions wouldn't affect anything is a shoddy excuse for actually watching it and applies to every horrid act committed by man in the pursuit of entertainment.
    Wish I lived in such a morally black and white world, I'm sitting here kinda jealous reading your post...

    wisdom wrote:
    if knowledge is power and power corrupts, be smart, be evil
  • The Green Eyed MonsterThe Green Eyed Monster i blame hip hop Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    You decided to go to a bullfight. But you want people to become educated and sophisticated enough to not go to bullfights. Your refusal to go to a bullfight would have changed nothing, though.
    In a country where I'm not a citizen, have no voting rights, don't pay taxes, and have no long term economic interest, I'd say my individual decision whether or not to fill one seat in a completely full stadium, regardless of my passing that day, had extremely little impact on whether or not bullfights remained a viable cultural tradition in Spain. So yes, I'm being difficult and contradictory, and less than black and white about this issue, because if you haven't picked up on my thesis, as it were, in this thread, it's that black and white moralistic thinking makes you stupid, and genuinely part of what helped me understand this was watching a bullfight and experiencing the range of difficult, contradictory, and ultimately irreconcilable feelings that I did while I watched it.

    wisdom wrote:
    if knowledge is power and power corrupts, be smart, be evil
  • ShogunShogun Hair long; money long; me and broke wizards we don't get along Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    What if everyone's refusal to attend did something? If no one attended there would be no spectacle and no reason for matadors to exist. Given that this would require a complete mindset change to the people of Spain it isn't going to happen.

    Others have mentioned that education would change things but I'm not so sure. I think the people of Spain know that it is cruel and understand that fully. It just continues regardless.

  • NatheoNatheo Registered User
    edited May 2010
    I really cannot believe that TGEM is catching this much shit for what he's said. Even though I still disagree with the premise of the sport on a fundamental level, reading what you said about it was enlightening.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Just Like ThatJust Like That Registered User
    edited May 2010
    You decided to go to a bullfight. But you want people to become educated and sophisticated enough to not go to bullfights. Your refusal to go to a bullfight would have changed nothing, though.
    In a country where I'm not a citizen, have no voting rights, don't pay taxes, and have no long term economic interest, I'd say my individual decision whether or not to fill one seat in a completely full stadium, regardless of my passing that day, had extremely little impact on whether or not bullfights remained a viable cultural tradition in Spain. So yes, I'm being difficult and contradictory, and less than black and white about this issue, because if you haven't picked up on my thesis, as it were, in this thread, it's that black and white moralistic thinking makes you stupid, and genuinely part of what helped me understand this was watching a bullfight and experiencing the range of difficult, contradictory, and ultimately irreconcilable feelings that I did while I watched it.

    If by "black and white moralistic thinking" you mean recognizing that something is wrong, then guilty as charged. The world I live in is full of moral grey areas, but there are certain things that are just bad. Such as the examples I already gave: rape, slavery, discrimination, and needless killing.

    Where is the grey area here?

  • The Green Eyed MonsterThe Green Eyed Monster i blame hip hop Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    You decided to go to a bullfight. But you want people to become educated and sophisticated enough to not go to bullfights. Your refusal to go to a bullfight would have changed nothing, though.
    In a country where I'm not a citizen, have no voting rights, don't pay taxes, and have no long term economic interest, I'd say my individual decision whether or not to fill one seat in a completely full stadium, regardless of my passing that day, had extremely little impact on whether or not bullfights remained a viable cultural tradition in Spain. So yes, I'm being difficult and contradictory, and less than black and white about this issue, because if you haven't picked up on my thesis, as it were, in this thread, it's that black and white moralistic thinking makes you stupid, and genuinely part of what helped me understand this was watching a bullfight and experiencing the range of difficult, contradictory, and ultimately irreconcilable feelings that I did while I watched it.

    If by "black and white moralistic thinking" you mean recognizing that something is wrong, then guilty as charged. The world I live in is full of moral grey areas, but there are certain things that are just bad. Such as the examples I already gave: rape, slavery, discrimination, and needless killing.

    Where is the grey area here?
    The gray area is in the extent to which my individual patronage of the event is directly responsible for its existence.

    There were bull fights. I attended a bull fight. There are bull fights. I will, in all likelihood, never attend a bull fight again. There will be, in all likelihood, bull fights going on for the rest of my lifetime. My individual patronage really meant jack diddly shit in the long run of things, except for the fact that I had one of the more profound experiences of my life because of it.

    You have to be full of an insane amount of self importance to really believe that your acceptance or condemnation of bull fights really has any meaningful impact on the cultural history of Spain, or the life of bulls.

    wisdom wrote:
    if knowledge is power and power corrupts, be smart, be evil
  • Just Like ThatJust Like That Registered User
    edited May 2010
    The gray area is in the extent to which my individual patronage of the event is directly responsible for its existence.

    The same extent to which any individual's patronage contributes to its existence. A small amount in absolute terms, but not zero. Your argument is essentially "a lot of people do it, so who cares if I do it?," which is often the defense of many otherwise indefensible things. Sort of like saying "yeah, I'll do the right thing, but only if it will make a big difference."
    You have to be full of an insane amount of self importance to really believe that your acceptance or condemnation of bull fights really has any meaningful impact on the cultural history of Spain, or the life of bulls.

    I never said it would. Not by simply posting on a forum, anyway. I'm just discussing the topic of the thread. Now, if I were in Spain, and had the option of going to a bullfight...

    Edit: fixed double negative, man I'm tired

  • The Green Eyed MonsterThe Green Eyed Monster i blame hip hop Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    The gray area is in the extent to which my individual patronage of the event is directly responsible for its existence.

    The same extent to which any individual's patronage contributes to its existence. A small amount in absolute terms, but not non-zero. Your argument is essentially "a lot of people do it, so who cares if I do it?," which is often the defense of many otherwise indefensible things. Sort of like saying "yeah, I'll do the right thing, but only if it will make a big difference."
    No, this is where I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying. I'm well aware that my patronage gives some kind of support to the enterprise, but I'm not trying to say, "Everyone does it, so it's all okay."

    I'm saying it's a regular event in a foreign country in which I have no stake, and due to this, my patronage (or denial of patronage) really has so little meaning as to be absolutely meaningless. The only difference between the world in which I attended the bull fight, and the hypothetical world in which I didn't, is that in this world I have to suffer the occasional moral grandstander who tries to paint my patronage as tantamount to supporting the Holocaust, and I have the truly enlightening experience of having witnessed a bull fight, as opposed to the experience of sitting in my hotel room for a few hours while the party I was traveling with attended the event.

    This isn't my fight to fight, it isn't my fight to win, and I think in all seriousness that I was basically a passive observer on the day I went.

    To top it off, I witnessed firsthand the ritualistic murder of an animal, but to pretend that was the only day in my life when an animal suffered for my benefit is asinine. I saw in person what my actions reap on a daily basis. If I were to truly embrace this "non-zero" approach to the impact of my actions, I would have to start doing things like refusing to ride in or operate fossil fueled vehicles, or even refusing to purchase goods which were transported with a fossil fuel powered logistic chain, obviously going vegan and refusing to use animal byproducts would be a logical conclusion as well, but then of course it would be quite difficult to eat vegan on a regular basis without a fossil fuel supported logistic chain, so there's a conundrum, and depending on where I live, there might even be situations where using water or electricity feeds into some kind of environmental degradation which, in turn, adversely affects animals etc. and so on. Or paying taxes, how could I forget about my taxes? My money goes directly to support things far worse than the murder of a bull with every paycheck, but I mean I'm not about to stop collecting wages, sooo ... yeah ... I really think my decision to attend that bull fight was pretty goddamn meaningless in the greater scheme of things, and people who think otherwise have an overly inflated sense of self importance and confusing moral code that, per their own admonitions in this thread, would rather a human suffer before a bull.

    wisdom wrote:
    if knowledge is power and power corrupts, be smart, be evil
  • legionofonelegionofone __BANNED USERS
    edited May 2010
    Natheo wrote: »
    I really cannot believe that TGEM is catching this much shit for what he's said. Even though I still disagree with the premise of the sport on a fundamental level, reading what you said about it was enlightening.

    Are you really shocked with the amount of moralistic blowhards that float around here?

    Some of you need to get a grip instead of concern trolling about the poor bull while trying to top each other about who is more "compassionate".

    TEGM, I appreciate you sharing your experience but many people here are just going to keep going "slavery slavery!" in an attempt to bolster their own sense of self worth. Its a shame that your experiences got lost in all the noise here.

    "They have shit," Krause said. "Rights my ass. 'Rights'. Nobody has any fucking rights unless they've got a machine gun."
  • Just Like ThatJust Like That Registered User
    edited May 2010
    You're taking the things I'm saying and stretching them to some pretty wild extremes. I never said you did something akin to supporting the Holocaust. And I never said you should do any of the stuff in that last paragraph.

    What you saw was not how meat is obtained to feed people. That's an entirely different thing, something done quickly (and ideally painlessly) for an important purpose. I'm not against eating meat. I don't even care much for PETA. What you did see was the cruel, gory and drawn-out killing of an animal almost exclusively for entertainment. I find it hard to believe your life was enhanced in any significant way by this. Are you doing things differently now? Do you make your breakfast with the flair of a matador? Or is it more likely that you simply experienced the feeling of bloodlust for the first time and found it interesting and exciting?

    So in the end, you gain an "experience", and an animal loses its life in suffering. Quite a trade-off.

  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Natheo wrote: »
    I really cannot believe that TGEM is catching this much shit for what he's said. Even though I still disagree with the premise of the sport on a fundamental level, reading what you said about it was enlightening.

    Are you really shocked with the amount of moralistic blowhards that float around here?

    Some of you need to get a grip instead of concern trolling about the poor bull while trying to top each other about who is more "compassionate".

    TEGM, I appreciate you sharing your experience but many people here are just going to keep going "slavery slavery!" in an attempt to bolster their own sense of self worth. Its a shame that your experiences got lost in all the noise here.

    It's allegory legion, a big word I'm sure you barely understand.

    Frankly, Bullfighting is a relic of a past era that needs to die. If it was possible to somehow do this without tormenting and ritually killing 2 thousand pounds of enrage bovine I'd be fine with it, but at the moment it's got to be put down.

    Spoiler:
  • Just Like ThatJust Like That Registered User
    edited May 2010
    Natheo wrote: »
    I really cannot believe that TGEM is catching this much shit for what he's said. Even though I still disagree with the premise of the sport on a fundamental level, reading what you said about it was enlightening.

    Are you really shocked with the amount of moralistic blowhards that float around here?

    Some of you need to get a grip instead of concern trolling about the poor bull while trying to top each other about who is more "compassionate".

    TEGM, I appreciate you sharing your experience but many people here are just going to keep going "slavery slavery!" in an attempt to bolster their own sense of self worth. Its a shame that your experiences got lost in all the noise here.

    Haha, that's the first time I've ever been called a "blowhard." For disliking blood sports, no less.

    And you're right, this whole thing is about my self worth. I just really need to prove to people on the internet that I'm more compassionate. You nailed it dude.

    Also, I'm sorry I forgot that this thread was about TEGM's experience at the arena. I'm going to bed now anyway, so you guys can go ahead and get back on that topic.

  • The Green Eyed MonsterThe Green Eyed Monster i blame hip hop Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    You're taking the things I'm saying and stretching them to some pretty wild extremes. I never said you did something akin to supporting the Holocaust. And I never said you should do any of the stuff in that last paragraph.
    I was mentioning the tone in some posts, not necessarily yours. I know you didn't suggest those things, but if you endorse taking an altruistic avoidance of any actions which results in a non-zero negative impact on animals, then I believe it would be possible to logically conclude that all those actions I suggested would fit under your umbrella of altruism.

    If you agree that those actions are unrealistic and straining against the limits of altruism, thus immaterial to the discussion of ethical treatment of animals, then I would say the patronage of a single bull fight can be written off as part of the same group, too.
    What you saw was not how meat is obtained to feed people. That's an entirely different thing, something done quickly (and ideally painlessly) for an important purpose. I'm not against eating meat. I don't even care much for PETA. What you did see was the cruel, gory and drawn-out killing of an animal almost exclusively for entertainment. I find it hard to believe your life was enhanced in any significant way by this. Are you doing things differently now? Do you make your breakfast with the flair of a matador? Or is it more likely that you simply experienced the feeling of bloodlust for the first time and found it interesting and exciting?

    So in the end, you gain an "experience", and an animal loses its life in suffering. Quite a trade-off.
    I actually think commercial meat production is infinitely more cruel and causes multitudes more suffering for the animals you consume than a bull fight.

    Bulls for slaughter are actually raised well, put out to pasture, fed well, and given all the natural encouragements necessary to make them the strongest, bravest, meanest bulls in the world, encouraging their natural temperament. Then they are thrust into a ring where they fight a losing, violent, and ultimately cruel battle for something like 15-20 minutes, if I'm not mistaken.

    Commercial raised cows or chickens, on the other hand, are never given real freedom to roam, fed horrible diets for the sake of weight gain, are rife with disease, genetically modified, live a caged life of pain and stress, and generally know little to no joy in their life before they are marched into a slaughterhouse and prepped for consumption. The horrors of the commercial meatpacking industry seem far, far greater than the murder of a bull in a rigged fight to me.

    I'm saying, if anyone is going to stand on the moral high ground and point the finger at me, there are much, much worse things in this world than a bull fight.

    I "get" the abhorrence of the bull fight thing, though, because it seems like something more in our control. We can say directly "yes" or "no" to participation in it, as opposed to the murkiness of buying a frozen pepperoni pizza on sale during a week when we're short on cash, or eating bacon at mom's house on Sunday when she cooks us breakfast, or paying taxes which support our various inhumane foreign policies, as well as domestic, etc. and so on. So for those who feel better by not participating, I am glad, because I want people to feel better. I just don't particularly like the tone wherein patrons of bull fights are the problem, and the people who live in the States and might very well live their entire lives without the opportunity to even attend one are the solution, simply because they give it a proper mental shaming every time it crosses their mind.

    wisdom wrote:
    if knowledge is power and power corrupts, be smart, be evil
  • PolloDiabloPolloDiablo Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Couscous wrote: »
    Why the fuck should I care if people get a visceral thrill out of it? People got a visceral thrill out of clubbing animals to death.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_tossing

    That's pretty fucked up. Although there was a link to "cock throwing" on that page. Although also fucked up, other names for it include "whipping the cock" or "thrashing the cock." It says, "By the early 19th century the tradition was all but forgotten," but I know for a fact this still occurs daily all over America. I know most people don't even mind admitting that they've "whipped the cock" now and again.

    Be excellent to each other you stupid cunts.
  • Witch_Hunter_84Witch_Hunter_84 Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    I guess I'm just against the unnecessary killing of things? I find it hard to understand why you need to take a life to be entertained. There are plenty of ways to have fun where nothing dies. This is also the reason I find hunting for sport offensive. You want to hunt? Fine, just do something with the animal after you kill it. Eat it, make it into a coat, whatever.

    Is that such an unreasonable stance?
    The bull meat is definitely consumed after the fight. I don't know what they do with any of the other byproducts, but you can go to the local deli and buy the meat right after the fight gets out.

    Did you try any? I wonder how heavily muscled bovine tastes, especially fresh after the kill like that.

    If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten in your presence.
  • HenroidHenroid Nobody Nowhere fastRegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    As a person of Portuguese descent, I approve of bullfighting.
    Spoiler:

    I think society has started to move beyond this sort of feat of strength / sport event. At least, here in America. In those other nations they still have their taste for it. It doesn't make them bad people automatically, it just adds a bad aspect to them.

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  • AthaedosAthaedos Registered User
    edited May 2010
    I must say, I haven't read an internet argument in a long time that kept me thinking because I wasn't sure what my position was.

    I mean, ideally there would be no bullfighting. I think everyone's self created humanity should be founded on ideals. We get to create ourselves, but the extent to which we can be completely successful and the extent to which this ability is unique among our species is unquantifiable and generally unknown. We can choose what to do, but that choice is created by a universe that sets everything up and dictates our very nature, so it's impossible for idealism to triumph over what let it emerge. I think that's the human struggle.

    From my individual perspective, after reading so much history and witnessing my own reactions to things, it seems obvious that human nature is amoral, and powerful enough to hold sway over rationality and self-created ideals or truths. We all have to make up our own idea of what's right, so one version of things will never be more powerful that the nature that we all do share (more or less, since genetic differences can easily mean a different nature). Even on the science side of things, it's a horribly gray and bumpy world.

    There is no alternate reality where bullfighting doesn't exist (or at least no reason to believe in one). How we should respond to the idea of bullfighting is a pretty easy problem for most people. How we actually respond to the reality is another matter. Yes, it is morally objectionable. I would never be a matador. But someone is a matador, someone wants to be a matador, and countless have been matadors. One side of me recognizes that this tells me something about 'human nature' and thus about myself. If I were raised differently, perhaps with slightly different genetics as well, I could be all about being a matador. And fundamentally the capability is the there in my real self. The other part of me says 'Fuck that, what's the point of philosophy/ideas/rationality/intellect if I just give up and resign things to human nature?' And I know that then there is no point, but this question is not answerable when I try to apply it to other people. Ultimately we cannot know another person's full nature or ideas.

    So in the end we have to be satisfied with I will not be a matador. And I will not support matadors. Perhaps you'll believe so strongly in the truth of your own ideals that you'll rescue bulls from matadors. Or perhaps you'll refuse to go to a bullfight. Or perhaps you'll actively protest bullfighting. Or perhaps you'll mention offhand that you don't care for bullfighting because it's amoral. We all have the power to do a lot to prevent bullfighting and spread awareness of a particular brand of morality. How far we go is up to us.

    In this case, and even in the case of something like the Iraq war, I listen to the part of me that says it's human nature. Because these things I might (if I devote all my time) change in my own lifetime, but from everything I've read it seems clear that these are issues people will be dealing with as long as people like us exist. Sometimes people go all out with their ideals and re-write history. That would probably be a fulfilling life for many people, but it's not how I get my fulfillment. I have a separate agenda, so I think it's best to just stick to being true to myself, and simply not joining the army or giving money to those who put on a bullfight is enough. But if I were to join the army or go to a bullfight, I would be very attentive to the qualities it revealed in me. I know there is a lot to be uncovered after a lifetime of middle-class American intellectual living. Ultimately I hope to pull back the veil without compromising my ideals, by seeing myself directly in others. This is perhaps part of the allure of bullfighting for the more discerning spectators. We are the bull and the matador. It's amoral performance art. I'm not going to do anything about it.


    How's that for a clusterfuck of a post?


    Edit: Just looked at the photos. I think they're beautiful. Also, a TL;DR for my post would be "bullfighting: par for the intriguing course".

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