[DnD 4E Discussion] Click to affirm Infidel is amazing.

SkyCaptain

I like it for that reason too, but one of my players mentioned the chat window flies by pretty fast. I'm also leaning towards the second option for readability when it comes to multiple attacks and multiple damage rolls. It's easier to kep all that info on one line.

Flask of Acid (Standard Action, Close Blast 5 • Alchemy, Acid)
Elven Ranger 1: 20 vs 15 Reflex, 8 acid damage
Elven Ranger 2: 15 vs 15 Reflex, 8 acid damage

---

Hit: Target suffers 2 ongoing acid damage (save ends).

I've got monster attacks working this way now. It was easier to fix than I thought. When you mouseover the attack roll, it pops up a tooltip that displays a breakdown of all the attack modifiers and the d20 roll.

Aegeri

Oh yeah, since the essentials mage preview I gave wizards in general magic missile as a class feature. It actually works out really well, making my IRL games wizard quite a handy minion killer and removing the annoying "This <10 HP creature refuses to die" dance I love so very much. Generally it's a suboptimal choice to actually attacking, but it does help him deal damage to "hard" targets and generally assist the others in whittling them down.

Kelor

Anyone happen to know if Demonomicon is out in Australia? Specifically Melbourne since I know there's a few of us here.

Aegeri

Kelor wrote: »

Anyone happen to know if Demonomicon is out in Australia? Specifically Melbourne since I know there's a few of us here.

Yes, I live in New Zealand I got Demonomicon, Tomb of Horrors, Vor Rukoth and Orcs of Sourfang pass just in the middle of last week. So it should be at gaming stores in Australia for sure.

I have finished Tomb of Horrors and Vor Rukoth recently. Both are very good.

soxbox

I did a wander through Mind Games and Dungeon of Magic and neither of them had any of the latest releases as of ummm... Wednesday I think I did that?

Aegeri

I just order mine through a brick and mortar bookstore. They take a while to get here, but they do a pretty decent job usually. I have no complaints, especially because I get a 10% student discount and as I buy so many books that means roughly every 10 books I effectively get one for free. So it really works out nicely.

Kelor

soxbox wrote: »

I did a wander through Mind Games and Dungeon of Magic and neither of them had any of the latest releases as of ummm... Wednesday I think I did that?

Ah, cheers.

I was going to check both since trains are free tomorrow and I've got the afternoon off, but I might call first and make sure.

streever

quick question on monster damage: if I "make a new monster" in the Adventure Tools, does it automatically have the right damage maths? i.e. if I have a lurker & click "new attack" is the damage in there going to be by the formula

smeej

I'd assume so. The math is definitely different in the version with MM3 included. They even have an option not for "limited use" powers that boosts the damage 75%.

hippofant

Aegeri wrote: »

Yes, I live in New Zealand I got Demonomicon

Hmm. Is there a sheep demon?

templewulf

hippofant wrote: »

Aegeri wrote: »

Yes, I live in New Zealand I got Demonomicon

Hmm. Is there a sheep demon?

Spoiler:

Sorry, Aegeri. :lol:

Horseshoe

they use poisonous gases

and they poison your asses

Dortmunder

What would you say is an expected combat encounter length (in rounds) for an 11th level party vs a 12 elite lurker, 3 x 12 skirmishers and 10 artillery? On average, assuming no other factors.

streever

Dortmunder wrote: »

What would you say is an expected combat encounter length (in rounds) for an 11th level party vs a 12 elite lurker, 3 x 12 skirmishers and 10 artillery? On average, assuming no other factors.

I would try to base it around encounter powers--so if they have 3 encounter powers and 4 dailies, everyone should spend their 3 enc, 1 daily, and then get a chance to use their 2 at-wills at least once or twice. So, 6-9 rounds.

Terrendos

I'd say it depends on the monsters. If they're MM3, think something in the 4-5 round range. Pre-massive damage buff, probably 6-9.

Infidel

Megatin wrote:

Suggestion: On the roll histories page, you've got a "prev 20" and "next 20" button, but it's somewhat ambiguous since, "next 20" actually gives you the 20 rolls that occurred previously (chronologically) to the ones that are currently being viewed.

Good catch, I didn't even notice that of course because I know what I meant with the next! Right? Right.

Fixed that stuff up, also don't bother showing "next #" when you're at the top.

Keep those suggestions rolling in, they're not frequent but they're usually good when I see them. (Suggestion box link is at the bottom of every page on Orokos.)

Aegis

Now that I'm actually reminded, and if you are taking suggestions:

When you've completed a roll and are viewing the result, there's no button to immediately take you back to make another roll. You have to go back to the main page then select roll dice again. Would it be possible to include a link on the results page to take you right back to the roll dice page?

Infidel

Aegis wrote: »

Now that I'm actually reminded, and if you are taking suggestions:

When you've completed a roll and are viewing the result, there's no button to immediately take you back to make another roll. You have to go back to the main page then select roll dice again. Would it be possible to include a link on the results page to take you right back to the roll dice page?

Yeah, there isn't one on the results page since it actually redirects to the shareable permalinked page right away, but that made too much sense to have easy access to the roller.

So I added a link next to the "Return to index" link that lets you get to the roller anywhere outside the main menu. :^:

Aegis

Infidel for president!

Aegeri

Terrendos wrote: »

I'd say it depends on the monsters. If they're MM3, think something in the 4-5 round range. Pre-massive damage buff, probably 6-9.

Even level encounters usually take around 4-6 rounds to finish. This is because PCs usually hit them and they don't have that extra chunk of HP from 3-4 extra levels. I found pre-MM3 that I rarely ever ran paragon/epic even level encounters, as it wasn't worth it so I usually stuck to EL+2 or EL+3 as a standard encounter. That meant inflated monster HP and defenses, leading to more missing and longer combats. Now an EL0 encounter is pretty firmly challenging and EL+3 worth of monsters can really rip a party to pieces.

Assuming the monsters are from MM3, it should be roughly 4-6 rounds or so.

Assuming the monsters are pre-MM3, it will still take roughly 4-6 rounds - except they'll do something between "Shit" and "All" to the PCs in the process.

daniant

Infidel: I want a button to click that says, "Click if you think Infidel is amazing."

I would click that button every day.

Infidel

daniant wrote: »

Infidel: I want a button to click that says, "Click if you think Infidel is amazing."

I would click that button every day.

I shall link it to my paypal.

Abbalah

Today's entertaining DnD typo:

The first page of Demonomicon describes Iggwilv as "a beautiful human female with flowing back hair"

Aegeri

Abbalah wrote: »

Today's entertaining DnD typo:

The first page of Demonomicon describes Iggwilv as "a beautiful human female with flowing back hair"

Flowing back hair is an extremely important feature of many extremely hot women.

Edit: It turns out that the Essentials Rogue can use sneak attack once per turn (not just once per round like the current one). Mike Mearls over an EN World dropped a bombshell when he said that is probably going to be a change for all rogues. If that's the case, if they change hunters quarry, curse and similar to be similar "all the time" striker mechanics that's going to be pretty impressive.

Hexmage-PA

Mearls also posted this on RPG.net:

A fair amount of the thinking behind essentials, and its ease of use, came from watching people (both veteran RPGers and newbies) struggle with the concept of powers.

People seemed to have a fairly easy time grokking a power for the casting classes - wizards, clerics. They have in their mind a concept of what a spell is, and that maps fairly easily to the concept of a power.

On the other hand, there were the people who just wanted to smack an orc over the head with an axe. Time and again, you'd see someone playing a 4e weapon user for the first time struggle to remember to use a power. The power was getting in the way of axe + orc's head = win.

(It would be ridiculous to characterize these players as dense or dumb, by the way. It really comes down to how you perceive the game fiction and how it interacts with the rule set. Some people start with mechanics. Others start with the world.)

The idea behind the essentials mechanics is to find the same relationship between power and spell for the martial classes. That's why you see stances for the fighter, tricks for the thief, and powers that kick in after an attack like power strike. For someone who has experienced fantasy in books, those frameworks are easier to understand. There's a clearer relationship between what the mechanic does and what happens in the game world.

That also points to why the design isn't interested in replacing the earlier classes. Many people obviously did pick them up and understand them. Why mess with those folks' fun?

Incenjucar

Man, I hope they don't move too far away from the powers for everyone concept. I don't want everything that isn't a spellcaster to be using the same move every freaking round.

smeej

Yeah, I was definitely drawn back to D&D because of the wide power selection of all the classes. Basically I saw Tide of Iron and went, "oh, I can do things?"

I don't think having a couple dailies and encounters and at-wills is that confusing. If a new player can't understand why Tide of Iron is superior to a melee basic attack for his sword-and-board fighter... then I don't think I want to play with them.

I'm just going to continue ignoring everything Essential, since it's all optional. *sigh*

Kay

Our rogue had the whole 'power paralysis' problem. He had no idea what was the best power to use, and had a tendency to never use encounters or dailies unless I'd dropped a big +tohit buff as my Warlord.

We totally rebuilt his character, streamlined his powers so he had a bunch of 'shift here, do this, shift away' things rather than a grab-bag of varied utility, and he was much more likely to use his encounters. In fact, now he's all sad-face when he no longer has any shift-attack-shift powers left, and is left with his at-will that lets him move before, or shift after the attack.

So, by sort of limiting his wide range of choice (to start with), we got him into the swing of choosing powers that are not simply 'I stab the dude do I get sneak attack damage?', and now he's picking all sorts of powers that do interesting things, like immediate reactions, free-actions with a trigger, and he's using them all.

streever

Yea, I mean, it's their game. They have to do what they have to do. But I really can't buy that people "forget" that they can use their at-wills. I mean, it's 2 freaking powers.

DevoutlyApathetic

Eh. I have had to repeatedly tell people "Do you see your basic attacks? Ignore them. 99% of the time you are better off to use one of your at wills instead."

Timmy

My friend's wife actually has the problem Wizards is describing. She's got a Tempest Fighter and she either uses Dual Strike or her MBA. I cannot get her to see the value in Footwork Lure or her encounter power. She'll use her daily but her daily is Brute Strike so she just sees it as a much tougher MBA.

Kay

Don't recall what Brute Strike does, but maybe point out to her that if she uses Luring Strike to move an enemy into her space and then she shifts to wherever in order to get a flanking bonus, she can then action point to hit it again with a bonus (which will be of more value to her personally), or it sets up the rogue for a Sneak Attack, if there's a rogue in the party.

Or show her how it can pull an enemy from a ranged ally or somesuch?

ronrab

I know I personally would benefit a lot from a VERY basic primer on what general types of powers are useful for, and one more specialized for each class. Everyone who's experienced with the game loves shift/pull/push powers, great. Why do I care? How are they used well in combat situations?

Our rogue had the whole 'power paralysis' problem. He had no idea what was the best power to use, and had a tendency to never use encounters or dailies unless I'd dropped a big +tohit buff as my Warlord.

We totally rebuilt his character, streamlined his powers so he had a bunch of 'shift here, do this, shift away' things rather than a grab-bag of varied utility, and he was much more likely to use his encounters.

Also, this. Ideally this is what Essentials should have done - highly themed versions of the classes by power, so you can concentrate on doing one thing really well as a beginner, and figure out what different approaches and types of powers do. I have no idea how much they've actually done this, if at all.

tl;dr - POWERS! How do they work?!

Kay

For the record, the guy playing the rogue I mentioned is pretty goddamned terrifying now. He's next to impossible for enemies to pin down without some sort of slow or immobilise (and if he MCs into something that allows a teleport, like Assassin or Warlock, not even slows or immobilises would stop him), does amazing amounts of damage due to pretty much being able to get combat advantage every turn (due to his massive shifts into position, utilities or item powers), and if he crits... oh god, if he crits.

Yeah, allowing someone the freedom to use encounters/dailies by reassuring them that, if it doesn't work, they have others they can use, really helps people get over the hump of 'I don't know which one to use'.

Not even realising that you have attacks other than MBA/RBA is another problem, though. Especially for Str-primary sorts.

dresdenphile

streever wrote: »

Yea, I mean, it's their game. They have to do what they have to do. But I really can't buy that people "forget" that they can use their at-wills. I mean, it's 2 freaking powers.

I'm with you. When I saw the sample characters at the release event for 4E, I immediately said "I'm guessing the use for MBAs/RBAs is pretty limited when you have At-Wills you can use every turn."

Plus, if you're using the CB, it prints out massive cards that tell you what powers you have. The MBA/RBA section is tiny font lost in the shuffle.

Kay

The only times you should be using basic attacks are:

• Charges, when you have no powers that can be used as an MBA on a charge.
  
• OAs, when you have no powers that can be used as an MBA on a charge.
  
• When someone else grants you an MBA/RBA and you have no powers that can be used as an MBA/RBA.

zenpotato

I get this, but I still have players in my games defaulting to basic attacks. They just aren't gamers in the "take full advantage of the rules to maximize damage" sense. I'm not surprised people on this forum don't tend to have that problem. But I certainly know people who do.

ironzerg

I try to describe MBA's as essentially slapping someone during a fistfight. Usually that metaphor works pretty well.

Lezta

zenpotato wrote: »

I get this, but I still have players in my games defaulting to basic attacks. They just aren't gamers in the "take full advantage of the rules to maximize damage" sense. I'm not surprised people on this forum don't tend to have that problem. But I certainly know people who do.

But if they don't care about the rules, then why are they still trying to use their least flavourful and exciting attacks?

Fiaryn

Incenjucar wrote: »

Man, I hope they don't move too far away from the powers for everyone concept. I don't want everything that isn't a spellcaster to be using the same move every freaking round.

Also because "universal framework" is the fundamental concept that makes 4E balance not a huge heap of shit.

The more frameworks you try to cram together, the more of a disaster party balance becomes.