what kind of statistics? Body counts? prefered icecream flavors?
I'm not really a numbers man, because statsitics don't really mean much when the oposite of the trend occurs, but I can take a peek around if I know what you want.
The blockade IS intended as a siege, and it is incredibly wrong and needs to be ended.
But better that they should be easing SOMETHING about it than leaving it entirely as-is.
I agree. But the fact that Israel is getting praise internationally for this though when they're still crushing the people of the strip is fairly sickening to me.
what kind of statistics? Body counts? prefered icecream flavors?
I'm not really a numbers man, because statsitics don't really mean much when the oposite of the trend occurs, but I can take a peek around if I know what you want.
Specifcally I'm thinking of property crime and violence.
The blockade IS intended as a siege, and it is incredibly wrong and needs to be ended.
But better that they should be easing SOMETHING about it than leaving it entirely as-is.
I agree. But the fact that Israel is getting praise internationally for this though when they're still crushing the people of the strip is fairly sickening to me.
What praise are they getting?
If it is "this is a good step in an ongoing process" then you are wrong to be sickened, because that is not just praise, that is encouragement to stop "crushing" people.
If it is "this is an amazing move by Israel and is totally enough" then you are delusional, because nobody is saying that.
This is a positive move for everyone. Trying to turn it in to a criticism of Israel only serves to reinforce the victim complex that Israel has, by confirming to them that any time they make a small step towards freeing the Palestnians, they will be met not with encouragement to continue and go further, but criticism and attacks.
what kind of statistics? Body counts? prefered icecream flavors?
I'm not really a numbers man, because statsitics don't really mean much when the oposite of the trend occurs, but I can take a peek around if I know what you want.
Specifcally I'm thinking of property crime and violence.
Yeah, I don't have any figures.
I do know that settlers like to vandalize mosques as retribution whenever the Israeli government breaks up an illegal settlement. The phrase that they spraypaint everywhere escapes me right now, but it is an incredibly sickening practice.
How exactly would the Gazans get rid of Hamas, anyways?
Who would replace them?
Hamas didn't just sieze control. They were legitimately ellected.
Gazans, in theory, could put their support back behind Fatah. This would posibly lead to Hamas perpetrated violence on Gazans, but not neccesarily.
Hamas needs to be dealt with. Either they need to renounce violence, or they need to be removed. Just like ISrael, they should not be allowed to hold the peace process hostage.
The problem is that Hamas currently refuses any participation in the democractic process by Gazans and pretty much persecutes other factions in the region, so they aren't really too much of a legitimate representative of the people anymore. I'm pretty sure they know they would be voted out if they actually allowed their people to get into the polls. Actually, despite what people usually say their edge wasn't too big over Fatah - 44.45% of the popular vote opposed to Fatah's 41.43%. IMO Palestinian Authority should declare the next elections and when it becomes clear that Hamas doesn't let the people under it's rule participate they would lose whatever pretense of democracy they have left.
Hamas was democratically elected and they should have been treated as such back in 2006, but right now they are just another dictatorship.
The problem is that Hamas currently refuses any participation in the democractic process by Gazans and pretty much persecutes other factions in the region, so they aren't really too much of a legitimate representative of the people anymore. I'm pretty sure they know they would be voted out if they actually allowed their people to get into the polls. Actually, despite what people usually say their edge wasn't too big over Fatah - 44.45% of the popular vote opposed to Fatah's 41.43%. IMO Palestinian Authority should declare the next elections and when it becomes clear that Hamas doesn't let the people under it's rule participate they would lose whatever pretense of democracy they have left.
Hamas was democratically elected and they should have been treated as such back in 2006, but right now they are just another dictatorship.
On some level I still wonder if Hamas would be better behaved if Fatah hadn't tried to ignore the election results.
How exactly would the Gazans get rid of Hamas, anyways?
Who would replace them?
Hamas didn't just sieze control. They were legitimately ellected.
Gazans, in theory, could put their support back behind Fatah. This would posibly lead to Hamas perpetrated violence on Gazans, but not neccesarily.
Hamas needs to be dealt with. Either they need to renounce violence, or they need to be removed. Just like ISrael, they should not be allowed to hold the peace process hostage.
Reminder that Hamas hasn't fired rockets in months and has agreed to recognize Israel and go back to the '67 border treaty
How exactly would the Gazans get rid of Hamas, anyways?
Who would replace them?
Hamas didn't just sieze control. They were legitimately ellected.
Gazans, in theory, could put their support back behind Fatah. This would posibly lead to Hamas perpetrated violence on Gazans, but not neccesarily.
Hamas needs to be dealt with. Either they need to renounce violence, or they need to be removed. Just like ISrael, they should not be allowed to hold the peace process hostage.
Reminder that Hamas hasn't fired rockets in months and has agreed to recognize Israel and go back to the '67 border treaty
Yes, so they have said. At least some leaders. Other leaders have said that they still refuse to recognize Israel. Let's see which they actually stand behind this.
Letting the Red Cross visit Gilead Shalit might be a nice way to prove that they mean it...
Understand that even many pro-Palestinian people are wary of trusting Hamas when they say this.
Also, rockets are STILL being launched from Gaza. IN mid-may a Thai worker in Israel was killed by a Gazan rocket. Whether or not Hamas is launching these rockets themselves, they are the governing body of the territory, so if attacks are being perpetrated on foreign soil, and they do not stand by these attacks, their proper protocol would be to prevent them from occuring/round up the criminals doing it after the fact. Hamas hasn't been big on that.
How exactly would the Gazans get rid of Hamas, anyways?
Who would replace them?
Hamas didn't just sieze control. They were legitimately ellected.
Gazans, in theory, could put their support back behind Fatah. This would posibly lead to Hamas perpetrated violence on Gazans, but not neccesarily.
Hamas needs to be dealt with. Either they need to renounce violence, or they need to be removed. Just like ISrael, they should not be allowed to hold the peace process hostage.
Reminder that Hamas hasn't fired rockets in months and has agreed to recognize Israel and go back to the '67 border treaty
Yes, so they have said. At least some leaders. Other leaders have said that they still refuse to recognize Israel. Let's see which they actually stand behind this.
Letting the Red Cross visit Gilead Shalit might be a nice way to prove that they mean it...
Understand that even many pro-Palestinian people are wary of trusting Hamas when they say this.
Also, rockets are STILL being launched from Gaza. IN mid-may a Thai worker in Israel was killed by a Gazan rocket. Whether or not Hamas is launching these rockets themselves, they are the governing body of the territory, so if attacks are being perpetrated on foreign soil, and they do not stand by these attacks, their proper protocol would be to prevent them from occuring/round up the criminals doing it after the fact. Hamas hasn't been big on that.
Ahh?
Hamas arrested three Palestinians who fired rockets into Israel from the Gaza Strip on Thursday, a militant faction said, in the first such detentions since the Islamist group and Israel agreed on a cease-fire last month.
Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, a militant offshoot of President Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah faction, said Hamas men pursued its members after the attack and "abducted them" in Jabalya refugee camp.
"We demand their immediate release," said Abu Qusai, a brigades spokesman.
The cease-fire deal calls on Hamas to prevent cross-border rocket fire and attacks from the Gaza Strip and for Israel to halt its raids and ease an economic blockade of the impoverished territory.
Hamas official Sami Abu Zuhri said "we stress that all parties should maintain the national agreement that was reached with a consensus."
Hamas is forcing other Gaza Palestinian factions to guarantee they do not launch rockets or mortar bombs at Israel, a source told the French AFP news agency on Monday.
The problem is that Hamas currently refuses any participation in the democractic process by Gazans and pretty much persecutes other factions in the region, so they aren't really too much of a legitimate representative of the people anymore. I'm pretty sure they know they would be voted out if they actually allowed their people to get into the polls. Actually, despite what people usually say their edge wasn't too big over Fatah - 44.45% of the popular vote opposed to Fatah's 41.43%. IMO Palestinian Authority should declare the next elections and when it becomes clear that Hamas doesn't let the people under it's rule participate they would lose whatever pretense of democracy they have left.
Hamas was democratically elected and they should have been treated as such back in 2006, but right now they are just another dictatorship.
On some level I still wonder if Hamas would be better behaved if Fatah hadn't tried to ignore the election results.
Well, around the election Hamas was a better choice then Fatah purely with the fact that they actually DID help people.
Now Fatah is a better choice because it has not alienated themselves from the international community.
In the wake of last month’s deadly raid on the Gaza-bound protest flotilla, Israelis and Palestinians alike are increasingly doubtful that a Palestinian state can be achieved, according to a joint Israeli-Palestinian poll released on Tuesday.
Two-thirds of the Israeli and Palestinian participants said the chances for an independent Palestinian state within the next five years were low, if not nonexistent.
“The pessimism on both sides regarding the establishment of a Palestinian state is striking,” said Hebrew University’s Prof. Ya’acov Shamil, who directed the Israeli polling. “There are ongoing talks now, but neither population believes in them.”
Meanwhile, Palestinians demonstrated a surge of support for Turkey, which has strongly criticized Israel’s involvement in the death of nine Turkish men on the flotilla. Among Palestinians, 43 percent said Turkey was the regional country most supportive of the Palestinian cause.
Perhaps surprisingly for many Israelis, fewer than 6% of the Palestinians expressed similar confidence in Iran or Syria, despite those nations’ aggressive stances toward Israel.
The poll, conducted June 6-16, was carried out by a joint initiative between the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research in Ramallah and the Harry S. Truman Research Institute for the Advancement of Peace at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem.
Since the breakdown of the Oslo Accords in 2000, the pollsters have measured Israeli and Palestinian sentiment regarding current events and the long-term political atmosphere.
According to Shamil, the survey is one of the only joint Israeli-Palestinian academic initiatives that survived the second intifada.
The two organizations polled the two populations separately, coordinating on specific questions to ask of both groups. The sample included 1,270 Palestinians from the West Bank, east Jerusalem and the Gaza strip, and 810 Israelis.
Despite the years since the end of the second intifada, the strains between the two populations remain glaring.
Among Israelis, 58% said they were worried that they or their families might be harmed by Arabs in their daily lives, while 74% of Palestinians said they or their families were in danger from Israelis.
More than half of the Palestinians supported nonviolent resistance, while 44% were for the resumption of an armed intifada.
But overcoming a general cynicism, both Israelis and Palestinians demonstrated an increased willingness to compromise.
In fact, according to the poll, 50% of Israelis support direct talks with Hamas in order to reach an agreement. In a testament to some of the misconceptions that abound, the survey also found that 61% of Israelis incorrectly believe that the majority of the Israeli public opposes such negotiations.
Israelis were also more likely to support what are known as the Clinton Parameters, laid out by then-US president Bill Clinton following the unsuccessful Camp David Summit that included Clinton, then-prime minister Ehud Barak and then-Palestinian Authority president Yasser Arafat.
The Clinton Parameters proposed a two-state approach that incorporated a divided Jerusalem and the concept of a land-swap, in which Israel would retain certain settlements in exchange for Israeli territorial concessions.
Forty-nine percent of Palestinians supported this solution, and 52% of Israelis voiced approval, a 6 percentage point increase from last year’s figure.
Only in 2003 did both populations express majority support for the proposal.
According to Shamil, the increase in Israeli support for the Clinton Parameters reflects an ease in tensions after several years of relative peace, as well as developing prosperity in the West Bank.
“The public is responding to this,” he said, describing the change in public opinion as a small step toward what he viewed as the eventual solution.
“The Clinton Parameters, one way or another, will be part of a final agreement,” he said. “Everybody knows what the solution will be; the question is only how much blood will be shed until then.”
He said the small steps toward compromise were visible on both sides of the conflict.
In particular, Shamil stressed the Palestinians’ rebuff of the one-state solution, a politically edgy proposal that the Palestinian government has recently been supporting and that would challenge the Jewish majority of a unified state.
In a reversal of increased Palestinian support for the proposal over the past year, the most recent survey showed that only 27% of Palestinians support it today – a 3 percentage point drop from the March poll.
“People are smart and can make sense of the situation and daily life, and they know that it is very difficult for such a solution to work,” said Shamil, who teaches a public polling course at the Hebrew University.
“As I tell my students, you should not think that people are stupid.”
I don't really see the surprise in those numbers. Negotiations aren't really going anywhere. Pessimism is expected.
Land-swap would be a good place to start from, if the Israeli position on the issue wasn't absolutely ridicolous (again). Palestinians actually agree on 1:1 amount. Equal swaps. They don't wan't more, even if they are left with 22% of the land as opposed to Israel's 78%. Israel could even keep it's largest settlements. Israel isn't content with this. They want more land in a swap. They want ALL of Jerusalem.
Hundreds of Gaza smuggling tunnels suspend work as blockade eases
Smuggling through tunnels into the Gaza Strip has dipped as their operators try to figure out whether they'll still have a business once Israel eases its blockade of the territory.
Some of the hundreds of tunnels under the border with Egypt have suspended work. Others now only bring in the most sought-after items, such as cement, steel, fuel and cigarettes. Some Gaza shopowners and traders have frozen orders of smuggled goods until they find out whether merchandise coming in legally from Israel will be cheaper.
Gaza's entire business community is in limbo, following Israel's announcement last week that it would significantly loosen its 3-year-old chokehold on Gaza, after coming under harsh international criticism over its deadly raid on an Gaza-bound international flotilla of pro-Palestinian activists.
We've had very slow traffic these days, said one tunnel owner, who only gave his first name, Ayman, for fear of repercussions from Egypt which has cracked down on smuggling. Merchants are waiting to find out what items are going to be allowed through the Israeli crossings.
Under the blockade, imposed after Hamas' violent Gaza takeover in 2007, Israel only permitted the import of a few dozen items, such as basic foods and medicines. In response, smuggling flourished, and a wide range of goods from fuel to candy to cars and livestock were brought in through tunnels.
Now Israel promises to let in everything except weapons and dual use items that could be diverted by Hamas for military purposes.
However, a broad definition of dual use could keep out many raw materials and construction supplies, seen as key to restarting Gaza's devastated factories and building industry. Throughout the blockade, Israel has only allowed in a trickle of construction materials, and only if destined for an international aid project.
In coming days, Israel is to release a list of products that would continue to be banned, and Foreign Ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor said it will include metal and pipes, which are used to manufacture rockets, fertilizer used to manufacture explosives and a number of similar items.
Even the least problematic category, consumer goods, is shrouded in mystery. Traders don't know when the expanded flow of goods will begin.
Maj. Guy Inbar, an Israeli Defense Ministry official, said the number of trucks deliver goods via Israel's main cargo crossing into Gaza is expected to double to about 250 a day within the next month or two.
Gaza would need about 900 truckloads a day, particularly of long-banned construction supplies and raw materials for industry, according to Ali Abu Shahla, a Gaza business leader.
The Hamas economics minister, Ziad al-Zaza, has said his government may block some imports, such as juice and soda, to protect local industry. Hamas has been profiting from the tunnels, both directly and through taxes, and it's not clear whether it would take steps to try to protect the smuggling business.
Many merchants say they prefer to import through Israeli crossings. Dealing with smugglers has been a headache, they say, because supplies, prices and quality are unpredictable.
No doubt, the legal border crossings are better for me, said trader Jibril Shaker. We are in a test phase now, and it's too early to tell if we will say goodbye to the tunnels.
As a result of such caution, tunnel traffic has dropped sharply, said Issa Nashar, mayor of the Gaza border town of Rafah, which supplies electricity and other services to the smugglers. He had no firm figures.
Ayman, the tunnel owner, said he is focusing operations on goods guaranteed to make a profit, like cement and fuel. He's also using the downtime to fix up his tunnel.
The tunnels run side by side under the border, just a few meters apart from each other, with a tent covering each entrance. On normal days, the tent city resembles an industrial zone, with generators humming and trucks rumbling along sandy paths to collect merchandise.
On a recent morning, only a few trucks were waiting for deliveries, and the only shipments were of cement and steel rods.
Nearby, the owner of a wholesaler's warehouse for smuggled goods was trying to anticipate what items Israel would allow in.
Since the raid on the Gaza-bound flotilla, Israel has already started easing the blockade slightly. Several dozen more types of goods have come in, including food and household items.
For 44-year-old Abed, the warehouse owner, this has meant a loss of $10,000 on a shipment of Turkish jam, after he said Israel recently lifted the ban on jam imports. The Turkish merchandise is 30 percent more expensive because of the higher cost of smuggling.
His warehouse was stuffed with goods, including chocolate, gum, soda, juice, rice, oil, milk and candy. Customers bought goods or placed orders, and young men loaded shipments newly arrived from the tunnels into white plastic bags and boxes.
Sitting behind a small desk and smoking, Abed talked on his cell phone to business partners in Egypt and Gaza merchants dealing with Israeli products.
He spoke on condition of anonymity, because he also has a legitimate job and feared problems with his employer.
Abed said he's now reviewing each item to see if it's still worth smuggling. For example, he said he'll keep bringing Lipton's tea from Egypt because it's one-third cheaper than the Israel import.
At the end of the supply chain, in a Gaza City supermarket, owner Maher Abdel-Hadi said he'll buy from smugglers and legitimate traders as long as the price is right.
For example, he said he can now get Swiss roll cake from Israel for eight shekels, or about $2.05, a piece, compared to 11 shekels, or $2.85, for the smuggled merchandise.
Abdel-Hadi said he prefers orderly imports, but hopes tunnels will keep operating as a fallback in case Israel ever decides to retighten the blockade.
We will remain hostages to the mood of the Israelis, he said. We don't trust their words.
Turks shot multiple times on Gaza ship: forensics
ANKARA — All but two of the nine Turks killed in an Israeli raid on a Gaza-bound aid ship were shot more than once, and five died from bullet wounds to the head, according to forensic reports.
The documents, penned this month, were made available to AFP Tuesday by lawyers for the victims' families, who have petitioned Turkish prosecutors to investigate the May 31 bloodshed on the Turkish Mavi Marmara ferry.
"The findings make it clear the Israeli forces shot to kill the activists and not to overpower them," one of the lawyers, Yasin Divrak, told AFP.
The youngest victim, 19-year-old Furkan Dogan, a dual Turkish-US national, was shot five times, including twice in the head, the report said.
A bullet that pierced his face was fired from close range, it said, adding he was hit also in the back of the head.
The forensic experts failed to detect other close-distance shots on the remaining victims.
All nine bodies had been washed before being brought to Turkey and their clothes were either blood-soaked or otherwise unfit for analysis, making it impossible to reach a conclusion on the ranges of most shots, according to the documents.
Journalist Cevdet Kiliclar, 38, the web editor of the Islamist charity IHH that led the ill-fated campaign, was killed by a single bullet that hit him between the eyebrows, the report said.
Divrak drew attention to the autopsy of 61-year-old Ibrahim Bilgen, which included the discovery of a tiny bag containing pellets, still intact in his brain, which the report said was was fired from a hunting rifle.
"It is not a type of weapon that we have ever heard of," he said.
Israel says its commandos used force after they were attacked with sticks and stabbed as soon as they landed on the Mavi Marmara, which was sailing in international waters. But the activists insist the troops opened fire as soon as they landed.
The bloody ending to the aid mission, which had aimed to break the Israeli blockade of the Gaza Strip, plunged ties between Turkey and Israel, once close allies, into deep crisis.
Turkey has dismissed a commission set up by Israel to investigate the raid, insisting for a UN-led international probe.
According to the decision taken on June 20, 2010, by the Israeli Security Cabinet, the Government of Israel - having reviewed the propositions put forward by the USG, the OQR and others - formed two categories of listed items whose entry into Gaza would be subject to Israeli control. Items not included in either would be allowed into Gaza without specific permission.
Still no real construction material flow, with no exports permitted (which is bullshit, what, is Hamas going to smuggle weapons out too? To who). I guess since consumer materials are permitted in that is a plus - but that's still people mostly being kept up artificially. No actual economy can be built by zero exports.
There is no need for pretending to be outraged that exports aren't allowed due to a "military blockade", when you can go ahead and be justifiably outraged by a collective punishment siege.
The silly part is that folks are focusing on the blockade here, and not the westbank settlements. The blockade is being done against Hamas, who are refusing to move towards peace, whereas the settlements are hurting the area controlled by Fatah, who DO want peace. Really, what should be going on is Israel ending the West Bank Settlements, as a show of good faith towards Fatah's work for peace (give the credit personally to Abu Mazen, maybe) and when the Gazans see this, they will be encouraged to either force Hamas to support peace as well, or else drop their support for Hamas, and put it back behind Fatah. Not to say that the blockade shouldn't be ended, but one of the two is more likely to start a chain reaction towards peace than the other.
This isn't anything new, Israel has chosen violence and conflict time and time again, like when in 1971 Egypt's president Anwar Sadat offered Israel a peace treaty in return for Israeli withdraw from Egyptian territory. Well, they didn't take the offer because they figured they could get more "more", and eventually expelled the residents from northeastern Sinai to found the all Jewish city of Yamit. Sadat warned that Yamit meant war, and eventually war did break out in 1973.
The treaty Sadat offered in 1971 was exactly what the 1979 Camp David accords were. Funny how Israel and people on their side insist "violence is the only thing these people know" in regards to Hamas, yet we have seen that is really only true for Israel.
The silly part is that folks are focusing on the blockade here, and not the westbank settlements. The blockade is being done against Hamas, who are refusing to move towards peace, whereas the settlements are hurting the area controlled by Fatah, who DO want peace. Really, what should be going on is Israel ending the West Bank Settlements, as a show of good faith towards Fatah's work for peace (give the credit personally to Abu Mazen, maybe) and when the Gazans see this, they will be encouraged to either force Hamas to support peace as well, or else drop their support for Hamas, and put it back behind Fatah. Not to say that the blockade shouldn't be ended, but one of the two is more likely to start a chain reaction towards peace than the other.
This isn't anything new, Israel has chosen violence and conflict time and time again, like when in 1971 Egypt's president Anwar Sadat offered Israel a peace treaty in return for Israeli withdraw from Egyptian territory. Well, they didn't take the offer because they figured they could get more "more", and eventually expelled the residents from northeastern Sinai to found the all Jewish city of Yamit. Sadat warned that Yamit meant war, and eventually war did break out in 1973.
The treaty Sadat offered in 1971 was exactly what the 1979 Camp David accords were. Funny how Israel and people on their side insist "violence is the only thing these people know" in regards to Hamas, yet we have seen that is really only true for Israel.
Digging in to history (both IRL and by necro-quoting) is INCREDIBLY counter-productive.
Or do you want me to focus on Araffat's complete refusal to negotiate at all with Barak, instead of recognizing the fact that Abbas is a VERY real partner for peace.
Seriously, all that the "blame game" will do is waste time while people die. BOTH SIDES have done horrible things to each other. If you actually care about the people suffering, then you will cut the "so and so is the REAL villain" crap, and focus on pragmatic solutions towards ending the conflict.
Honestly though, Palestinians have never really been as willing to move towards peace as Fatah is now. Bad timing since Israel is more reactionary then it has been in a long time. Hamas is (understandably) showing more signs of moving towards more civil relations then Israel is. Though good timing in the sense that the world isn't as quick to swallow Israel's bullshit and thank them afterwards though.
Hamas is an enemy. But it's an enemy whose territory and fighters can be completely put under the mercy of IDF Air Force in the matter of minutes and there is nothing they can do about it. It's an enemy that has the capability of striking only civilian targets and cause only few deaths per monthly. Israel needs to drive for a peace solution with Hamas (With the release of Shalit as part of it to gain some good PR in the home circles) and lift the siege. If Hamas instantly starts rocket attacks after the siege is lifted, it's not going to gain them good will from anyone, especially the Gazans. According to the polls posted above, a majority of Israel's population is for negotiations with Hamas.
Israel needs to do this while also holding separate negotiations with Fatah to really undermine Hamas's political influence and support. The following:
Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas wants Netanyahu to accept in principle the borders and security formula - the '67 lines as a basis for arrangement, with agreed territorial swaps on a 1:1 scale and an international force on the ground - as a basis for direct negotiations. In these talks the maps will be drafted and other core issues will be discussed. The Kadima government headed by Ehud Olmert and Tzipi Livni agreed to this formula.
Is not an unreasonable request. It's not out there in any fashion or form. Equal share in land swaps. Israel gets to keep the biggest settlements. Biggest political party in Israel agrees to it. And so on. I don't even think Likud is so far gone that it couldn't push it through it's party lines...but I do think they know that they can't do the same to Yisrael Beitenu...which would put their coalition at risk.
Honestly, what I'm hoping for is a Kadima coalition victory in the next elections. 2012 is going to be an interesting year to say the least.
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Seriously, all that the "blame game" will do is waste time while people die. BOTH SIDES have done horrible things to each other. If you actually care about the people suffering, then you will cut the "so and so is the REAL villain" crap, and focus on pragmatic solutions towards ending the conflict.
Thread /ended. The root extent of every one of these Israeli-Palestinian conflict threads can be summed up by one side or the other not being able to comprehend the above concept.
I don't care what new thing one side has done to kill or persecute the other, they both do it and perpetuate the violence. Stop picking sides.
Digging in to history (both IRL and by necro-quoting) is INCREDIBLY counter-productive.
Or do you want me to focus on Araffat's complete refusal to negotiate at all with Barak, instead of recognizing the fact that Abbas is a VERY real partner for peace.
Seriously, all that the "blame game" will do is waste time while people die. BOTH SIDES have done horrible things to each other. If you actually care about the people suffering, then you will cut the "so and so is the REAL villain" crap, and focus on pragmatic solutions towards ending the conflict.
Digging into history helps us understand what is going on and what people's goals are. It is clear Israel isn't interested in having peace until they have all the land they can possibly get their hands on - their history from the time they were officially made a Jewish state until today is evidence of that.
You can criticize Arafat if you want, but if Israel's past with peace negotiations is any indication, it probably wouldn't have done much good anyway. Like you said, Fatah wants peace, but Israeli won't even stop building settlements. What exactly is Fatah doing wrong? They've given huge swaths of land to Israel and have allowed them to build a wall a mile into the West Bank.
There isn't a whole hell of lot more the West Bank government and people can do, they're already bent over backwards. Anything from this point on must come from Israel.
Drain-O, I'm going to be nice and warn you that the attack you are trying to make has been tried a dozen times and failed all of them. I'll admit that this is an argument from authority here, but I know my shit, and I am NOT the party-l;ine "Pro-Israel" AIPAC goose that you apparently think you're talking to.
If you still want to insist on going down this road, I've got an opening on my dance card, but I do advise you to consider this carefully, before you make a fool of yourself.
So, would you like me to tear your post down point by point, or would you rather pretend that you never posted any of that at all, and we just move on discussing pragmatic solutions that can help to stop the conflict sooner?
Drain-O, I'm going to be nice and warn you that the attack you are trying to make has been tried a dozen times and failed all of them. I'll admit that this is an argument from authority here, but I know my shit, and I am NOT the party-l;ine "Pro-Israel" AIPAC goose that you apparently think you're talking to.
So, would you like me to tear your post down point by point, or would you rather pretend that you never posted any of that at all, and we just move on discussing pragmatic solutions that can help to stop the conflict sooner?
The fact that you criticized Israel for their wall and settlements was enough of a signal that you weren't a pro-Israel AIPAC member. I would like very much for you to point out any flaws in what I said, if I'm wrong about something I would like to know.
The entire point of the second half of my post however was that there is nothing more Fatah can do, there are no more concessions they can make. You want to discuss pragmatic solutions? By all means. How can peace come about at least between Israel and the West Bank?
Peace can't come JUST between Israel and the West Bank. Unless you're proposing a three state solution. That has a whole other set of issues. At this current moment, Fatah is definitely more ready for peace than Israel is, but you can't ignore Hamas, and then claim that Israel alone is holding the process up.
As for Israel wanting to take as much land as they can get, that is a heaping load of Bullshit. Israel has given away a large quantity of land in peace deals in the past. As for Israel's past negotiations, again, they have made peace with multiple neighboring states. How many states has Palestine effectively made peace with? Again, if you want to deal with History, the second intifada was called as a tactic to attempt to get Israel to make larger concessions in peace negotiations (the idea being that following the death of Rabin Israel would be scared, and more willing to concede). The second intifada had the opposite effect, though, causing Israel to swing more conservative. (Don't tell me that Sharon started the second intifada, by the way. It began BEFORE Yom Kipur, when he went up on the temple mount. Sure, he fanned the fires, but one man going to a site that is holy in his religion isn't a justifiable reason for a holy war, no? Not one that you can honestly defend and still claim to hold any sort of morals.)
BOTH sides have done horrible things. If you are going to continue to try to blame Israel for the conflict, and ignore Gilad Shalit or Hamas' charter, then really, you are ONLY fanning the flames of hatred, rather than actually encouraging people to seek to influence the appropriate people to focus on REAL solutions.
Well all know that Hamas is disingenous, the problem seems to be that the current (and most recent) Israeli governments are as well. The peace offering in the 90s should have been accepted by Arafat, I think we all agree there. He was a shitmonger. But I think the frusteration today is that it appears that Israel, the entity we give the largest amount of support and blank checks too, isn't really playing ball.
They are building settlements, they are securing land that is contested without negotiating, they are blockading with collective punishment. And it appears they are only a quasi-democracy at best, with unending attempts to disenfranchise Israeli-Arabs, and ridiculous assertions that speaking against a certain ideology amounts to treason.
Sure that kind of crap happens here in the US, but it hasn't been in the mainstream since the 60s. That's the kind of crap you expect the KKK and Christian redneck theocrats (of all stripes) to pull and assert.
You can't excuse Hamas' behavior by saying "we know that they are bad".
No one in this thread right now is denying that Israel's current government is doing serious things wrong. My issue is that attempting to focus on ONLY them (and then making larger claims like "all Israel ever wanted, since it was founded, is to take all of the land") is just hatemongering, intentional or no.
Peace can't come JUST between Israel and the West Bank. Unless you're proposing a three state solution. That has a whole other set of issues. At this current moment, Fatah is definitely more ready for peace than Israel is, but you can't ignore Hamas, and then claim that Israel alone is holding the process up.
As for Israel wanting to take as much land as they can get, that is a heaping load of Bullshit. Israel has given away a large quantity of land in peace deals in the past. As for Israel's past negotiations, again, they have made peace with multiple neighboring states. How many states has Palestine effectively made peace with? Again, if you want to deal with History, the second intifada was called as a tactic to attempt to get Israel to make larger concessions in peace negotiations (the idea being that following the death of Rabin Israel would be scared, and more willing to concede). The second intifada had the opposite effect, though, causing Israel to swing more conservative. (Don't tell me that Sharon started the second intifada, by the way. It began BEFORE Yom Kipur, when he went up on the temple mount. Sure, he fanned the fires, but one man going to a site that is holy in his religion isn't a justifiable reason for a holy war, no? Not one that you can honestly defend and still claim to hold any sort of morals.)
BOTH sides have done horrible things. If you are going to continue to try to blame Israel for the conflict, and ignore Gilad Shalit or Hamas' charter, then really, you are ONLY fanning the flames of hatred, rather than actually encouraging people to seek to influence the appropriate people to focus on REAL solutions.
I'm not proposing a three state solution, but we have to consider the facts here. Fatah wants peace, and in so, have given away much of the West Bank and allowed themselves to be walled in (with a wall a mile into the West Bank that puts farmland on Israel's side). Yet there is still no move towards peace on the part of Israel, they only continue seizing land and building settlements. If Israel doesn't want to make peace with Gaza, fine (though they are still committing humanitarian atrocities with their collective punishment of the Gazan people) but why can't they make peace with the West Bank? In that instance, it is clearly only Israel that is holding up the process.
Israel wanting to take land is bullshit? See the map I linked, they've taken much of the West Bank, continue to build settlements, and refuse to return to their pre-1967 border (something Hamas offered a 10 year "Hudna" for). How many neighboring states has Israel made peace with? I'm pretty sure it's only one, in that only Egypt has diplomatic relations with Israel. Of course in order for that to happen, a potentially devastating war against Israel had to be waged, and the United States had to be put on alert.
I'm not blaming just one side, but Israel is the major cause of the current state of affairs. What do you expect Hamas and the people of Gaza to do? They see Fatah wants peace, but then they see that in moving towards peace, Israel has taken huge swaths of their land.
You never answered my question though. What is Fatah doing wrong? Why isn't there peace between the West Bank and Israel? Why are they still under occupation and why is Israel still building settlements?
You can't excuse Hamas' behavior by saying "we know that they are bad".
No one in this thread right now is denying that Israel's current government is doing serious things wrong. My issue is that attempting to focus on ONLY them (and then making larger claims like "all Israel ever wanted, since it was founded, is to take all of the land") is just hatemongering, intentional or no.
Except Israel is the only one screwing things up right now. Everyone is ready to come to the table and talk things over, but Israel continues to expand settlements, kill activists, and be generally belligerent. That's why we're focusing on them.
You can't excuse Hamas' behavior by saying "we know that they are bad".
No one in this thread right now is denying that Israel's current government is doing serious things wrong. My issue is that attempting to focus on ONLY them (and then making larger claims like "all Israel ever wanted, since it was founded, is to take all of the land") is just hatemongering, intentional or no.
Except Israel is the only one screwing things up right now. Everyone is ready to come to the table and talk things over, but Israel continues to expand settlements, kill activists, and be generally belligerent. That's why we're focusing on them.
Well I would argue Hamas isn't coming to the table, but we don't give Hamas anything. We don't go to absurd lengths to defend Hamas. We don't excuse the abominal, or ask for false equivalancy before condemning Hamas. We do that for Israel.
The sad part is, from my perspective, I am not really sure whose crime I find more abhorrent (as if it really matters). The crazy theologic wing-nuts who openly bomb and terrorize, or the crazy theologic wing nuts who bomb and terrorize while masquerading as a real democracy. Has is always been the case that both sides or either side have been like that? Of course not. However, it is the situation right now and somehow the US public has been duped into thinking that it's okay for one side to do that.
Seriously, all that the "blame game" will do is waste time while people die. BOTH SIDES have done horrible things to each other. If you actually care about the people suffering, then you will cut the "so and so is the REAL villain" crap, and focus on pragmatic solutions towards ending the conflict.
Thread /ended. The root extent of every one of these Israeli-Palestinian conflict threads can be summed up by one side or the other not being able to comprehend the above concept.
I don't care what new thing one side has done to kill or persecute the other, they both do it and perpetuate the violence. Stop picking sides.
Be that as it may, the US is still shipping massive stockpiles of guns and money to one of these sides.
Honestly though, Palestinians have never really been as willing to move towards peace as Fatah is now. Bad timing since Israel is more reactionary then it has been in a long time. Hamas is (understandably) showing more signs of moving towards more civil relations then Israel is. Though good timing in the sense that the world isn't as quick to swallow Israel's bullshit and thank them afterwards though.
Hamas is an enemy. But it's an enemy whose territory and fighters can be completely put under the mercy of IDF Air Force in the matter of minutes and there is nothing they can do about it. It's an enemy that has the capability of striking only civilian targets and cause only few deaths per monthly. Israel needs to drive for a peace solution with Hamas (With the release of Shalit as part of it to gain some good PR in the home circles) and lift the siege. If Hamas instantly starts rocket attacks after the siege is lifted, it's not going to gain them good will from anyone, especially the Gazans. According to the polls posted above, a majority of Israel's population is for negotiations with Hamas.
Israel needs to do this while also holding separate negotiations with Fatah to really undermine Hamas's political influence and support. The following:
Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas wants Netanyahu to accept in principle the borders and security formula - the '67 lines as a basis for arrangement, with agreed territorial swaps on a 1:1 scale and an international force on the ground - as a basis for direct negotiations. In these talks the maps will be drafted and other core issues will be discussed. The Kadima government headed by Ehud Olmert and Tzipi Livni agreed to this formula.
Is not an unreasonable request. It's not out there in any fashion or form. Equal share in land swaps. Israel gets to keep the biggest settlements. Biggest political party in Israel agrees to it. And so on. I don't even think Likud is so far gone that it couldn't push it through it's party lines...but I do think they know that they can't do the same to Yisrael Beitenu...which would put their coalition at risk.
Honestly, what I'm hoping for is a Kadima coalition victory in the next elections. 2012 is going to be an interesting year to say the least.
Seriously, all that the "blame game" will do is waste time while people die. BOTH SIDES have done horrible things to each other. If you actually care about the people suffering, then you will cut the "so and so is the REAL villain" crap, and focus on pragmatic solutions towards ending the conflict.
Thread /ended. The root extent of every one of these Israeli-Palestinian conflict threads can be summed up by one side or the other not being able to comprehend the above concept.
I don't care what new thing one side has done to kill or persecute the other, they both do it and perpetuate the violence. Stop picking sides.
Be that as it may, the US is still shipping massive stockpiles of guns and money to one of these sides.
You realize that the US sends aid to BOTH sides, right?
It is DEFINITELY more aid to Israel, but for some reason no one ever seems to acknowledge that ceasing all aid to Israel would still leave us funding Palestine.
You can't excuse Hamas' behavior by saying "we know that they are bad".
No one in this thread right now is denying that Israel's current government is doing serious things wrong. My issue is that attempting to focus on ONLY them (and then making larger claims like "all Israel ever wanted, since it was founded, is to take all of the land") is just hatemongering, intentional or no.
Except Israel is the only one screwing things up right now. Everyone is ready to come to the table and talk things over, but Israel continues to expand settlements, kill activists, and be generally belligerent. That's why we're focusing on them.
Show me were Hamas is ready right now.
Not just one dude in Hamas, but Hamas as a whole.
Fatah appears to be ready. That doesn't mean that Israel is the sole roadblock.
Peace can't come JUST between Israel and the West Bank. Unless you're proposing a three state solution. That has a whole other set of issues. At this current moment, Fatah is definitely more ready for peace than Israel is, but you can't ignore Hamas, and then claim that Israel alone is holding the process up.
As for Israel wanting to take as much land as they can get, that is a heaping load of Bullshit. Israel has given away a large quantity of land in peace deals in the past. As for Israel's past negotiations, again, they have made peace with multiple neighboring states. How many states has Palestine effectively made peace with? Again, if you want to deal with History, the second intifada was called as a tactic to attempt to get Israel to make larger concessions in peace negotiations (the idea being that following the death of Rabin Israel would be scared, and more willing to concede). The second intifada had the opposite effect, though, causing Israel to swing more conservative. (Don't tell me that Sharon started the second intifada, by the way. It began BEFORE Yom Kipur, when he went up on the temple mount. Sure, he fanned the fires, but one man going to a site that is holy in his religion isn't a justifiable reason for a holy war, no? Not one that you can honestly defend and still claim to hold any sort of morals.)
BOTH sides have done horrible things. If you are going to continue to try to blame Israel for the conflict, and ignore Gilad Shalit or Hamas' charter, then really, you are ONLY fanning the flames of hatred, rather than actually encouraging people to seek to influence the appropriate people to focus on REAL solutions.
I'm not proposing a three state solution, but we have to consider the facts here. Fatah wants peace, and in so, have given away much of the West Bank and allowed themselves to be walled in (with a wall a mile into the West Bank that puts farmland on Israel's side). Yet there is still no move towards peace on the part of Israel, they only continue seizing land and building settlements. If Israel doesn't want to make peace with Gaza, fine (though they are still committing humanitarian atrocities with their collective punishment of the Gazan people) but why can't they make peace with the West Bank? In that instance, it is clearly only Israel that is holding up the process.
Israel wanting to take land is bullshit? See the map I linked, they've taken much of the West Bank, continue to build settlements, and refuse to return to their pre-1967 border (something Hamas offered a 10 year "Hudna" for). How many neighboring states has Israel made peace with? I'm pretty sure it's only one, in that only Egypt has diplomatic relations with Israel. Of course in order for that to happen, a potentially devastating war against Israel had to be waged, and the United States had to be put on alert.
I'm not blaming just one side, but Israel is the major cause of the current state of affairs. What do you expect Hamas and the people of Gaza to do? They see Fatah wants peace, but then they see that in moving towards peace, Israel has taken huge swaths of their land.
You never answered my question though. What is Fatah doing wrong? Why isn't there peace between the West Bank and Israel? Why are they still under occupation and why is Israel still building settlements?
You need to study some actual history. Israel has made peace with Egypt and Jordan, and traded large tracts of land for peace in those two deals (the Sinai and the East Bank, respectively.) There have also been multiple attempts at negotiations with Syria.
The idea that Israel is simply out to take land makes no sense. Why would they have given back the Sinai and the East Bank in that case? Keep in mind that there WERE Israeli settlements on both of those tracts of land, at one point.
Hamas' offer of a ten-year ceasefire is not an offer of peace. If Hamas wants to be treated like a legitimate government, then they should be held to the same standards. If Israel were to walk up to the table and say "we will only give Palestine a ten year cease-fire" would that honestly be at all acceptable?
Well I would argue Hamas isn't coming to the table, but we don't give Hamas anything. We don't go to absurd lengths to defend Hamas. We don't excuse the abominal, or ask for false equivalancy before condemning Hamas. We do that for Israel.
Yes, people do, they just do it differently.
Hamas' actions are generally excused either by saying "Israel is to blame for opressing them and FORCING them to behave like this." or by saying "Hamas may be wrong to imprison Gilad Shalit and fire a few rockets, but the damage that they are doing is LESS than Israel, so it's not really important."
Both of these are constant refrains int he greater discourse on the conflict, and both of them serve to set Israel up as a the SOLE transgressor, and Palestinians as nothing more than victims. The truth, though, is that BOTH sides are transgressors, and BOTH sides are victims, and trying to paint the situation any other way is goosery.
Excuses are constantly made for Hamas. There is no need to "make it fair" by trying to point out Israel's issues. Read the actual discourse in this thread and you'll see that the majority of "pro-Israel" folks in here aren't trying to white-wash Israel's behavior. We are actually speaking out against the blockade and the settlements. If pro-Israel folks believe the BEST hope for peace is to encourage Israel to clean up their act, why aren't more pro-Palestinian folks discussing what can be done to stop Hamas' anti-peace behevaiors?
Posts
I'm not really a numbers man, because statsitics don't really mean much when the oposite of the trend occurs, but I can take a peek around if I know what you want.
I agree. But the fact that Israel is getting praise internationally for this though when they're still crushing the people of the strip is fairly sickening to me.
Specifcally I'm thinking of property crime and violence.
What praise are they getting?
If it is "this is a good step in an ongoing process" then you are wrong to be sickened, because that is not just praise, that is encouragement to stop "crushing" people.
If it is "this is an amazing move by Israel and is totally enough" then you are delusional, because nobody is saying that.
This is a positive move for everyone. Trying to turn it in to a criticism of Israel only serves to reinforce the victim complex that Israel has, by confirming to them that any time they make a small step towards freeing the Palestnians, they will be met not with encouragement to continue and go further, but criticism and attacks.
Yeah, I don't have any figures.
I do know that settlers like to vandalize mosques as retribution whenever the Israeli government breaks up an illegal settlement. The phrase that they spraypaint everywhere escapes me right now, but it is an incredibly sickening practice.
Who would replace them?
Hamas didn't just sieze control. They were legitimately ellected.
Gazans, in theory, could put their support back behind Fatah. This would posibly lead to Hamas perpetrated violence on Gazans, but not neccesarily.
Hamas needs to be dealt with. Either they need to renounce violence, or they need to be removed. Just like ISrael, they should not be allowed to hold the peace process hostage.
Hamas was democratically elected and they should have been treated as such back in 2006, but right now they are just another dictatorship.
On some level I still wonder if Hamas would be better behaved if Fatah hadn't tried to ignore the election results.
Reminder that Hamas hasn't fired rockets in months and has agreed to recognize Israel and go back to the '67 border treaty
Yes, so they have said. At least some leaders. Other leaders have said that they still refuse to recognize Israel. Let's see which they actually stand behind this.
Letting the Red Cross visit Gilead Shalit might be a nice way to prove that they mean it...
Understand that even many pro-Palestinian people are wary of trusting Hamas when they say this.
Also, rockets are STILL being launched from Gaza. IN mid-may a Thai worker in Israel was killed by a Gazan rocket. Whether or not Hamas is launching these rockets themselves, they are the governing body of the territory, so if attacks are being perpetrated on foreign soil, and they do not stand by these attacks, their proper protocol would be to prevent them from occuring/round up the criminals doing it after the fact. Hamas hasn't been big on that.
Ahh?
http://www.jewishpolicycenter.org/259/hamas-arrests-gaza-rocket-squad-after-two-qassams
http://www.haaretz.com/news/gaza-militant-hamas-stopping-rocket-fire-into-israel-1.284117
I'd like to see them keep that up.
Well, around the election Hamas was a better choice then Fatah purely with the fact that they actually DID help people.
Now Fatah is a better choice because it has not alienated themselves from the international community.
http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=179966
Some interesting points in it.
Land-swap would be a good place to start from, if the Israeli position on the issue wasn't absolutely ridicolous (again). Palestinians actually agree on 1:1 amount. Equal swaps. They don't wan't more, even if they are left with 22% of the land as opposed to Israel's 78%. Israel could even keep it's largest settlements. Israel isn't content with this. They want more land in a swap. They want ALL of Jerusalem.
And really just confirming what we already knew
but nothing will ever happen~*
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/HumanitarianAid/Palestinians/Lists_Controlled_Entry_Items_4-Jul-2010.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10513004.stm
Still no real construction material flow, with no exports permitted (which is bullshit, what, is Hamas going to smuggle weapons out too? To who). I guess since consumer materials are permitted in that is a plus - but that's still people mostly being kept up artificially. No actual economy can be built by zero exports.
There is no need for pretending to be outraged that exports aren't allowed due to a "military blockade", when you can go ahead and be justifiably outraged by a collective punishment siege.
The treaty Sadat offered in 1971 was exactly what the 1979 Camp David accords were. Funny how Israel and people on their side insist "violence is the only thing these people know" in regards to Hamas, yet we have seen that is really only true for Israel.
Digging in to history (both IRL and by necro-quoting) is INCREDIBLY counter-productive.
Or do you want me to focus on Araffat's complete refusal to negotiate at all with Barak, instead of recognizing the fact that Abbas is a VERY real partner for peace.
Seriously, all that the "blame game" will do is waste time while people die. BOTH SIDES have done horrible things to each other. If you actually care about the people suffering, then you will cut the "so and so is the REAL villain" crap, and focus on pragmatic solutions towards ending the conflict.
Hamas is an enemy. But it's an enemy whose territory and fighters can be completely put under the mercy of IDF Air Force in the matter of minutes and there is nothing they can do about it. It's an enemy that has the capability of striking only civilian targets and cause only few deaths per monthly. Israel needs to drive for a peace solution with Hamas (With the release of Shalit as part of it to gain some good PR in the home circles) and lift the siege. If Hamas instantly starts rocket attacks after the siege is lifted, it's not going to gain them good will from anyone, especially the Gazans. According to the polls posted above, a majority of Israel's population is for negotiations with Hamas.
Israel needs to do this while also holding separate negotiations with Fatah to really undermine Hamas's political influence and support. The following:
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/netanyahu-heads-to-washington-hoping-to-regain-obama-s-trust-1.300221
Is not an unreasonable request. It's not out there in any fashion or form. Equal share in land swaps. Israel gets to keep the biggest settlements. Biggest political party in Israel agrees to it. And so on. I don't even think Likud is so far gone that it couldn't push it through it's party lines...but I do think they know that they can't do the same to Yisrael Beitenu...which would put their coalition at risk.
Honestly, what I'm hoping for is a Kadima coalition victory in the next elections. 2012 is going to be an interesting year to say the least.
Thread /ended. The root extent of every one of these Israeli-Palestinian conflict threads can be summed up by one side or the other not being able to comprehend the above concept.
I don't care what new thing one side has done to kill or persecute the other, they both do it and perpetuate the violence. Stop picking sides.
You can criticize Arafat if you want, but if Israel's past with peace negotiations is any indication, it probably wouldn't have done much good anyway. Like you said, Fatah wants peace, but Israeli won't even stop building settlements. What exactly is Fatah doing wrong? They've given huge swaths of land to Israel and have allowed them to build a wall a mile into the West Bank.
There isn't a whole hell of lot more the West Bank government and people can do, they're already bent over backwards. Anything from this point on must come from Israel.
If you still want to insist on going down this road, I've got an opening on my dance card, but I do advise you to consider this carefully, before you make a fool of yourself.
So, would you like me to tear your post down point by point, or would you rather pretend that you never posted any of that at all, and we just move on discussing pragmatic solutions that can help to stop the conflict sooner?
The entire point of the second half of my post however was that there is nothing more Fatah can do, there are no more concessions they can make. You want to discuss pragmatic solutions? By all means. How can peace come about at least between Israel and the West Bank?
As for Israel wanting to take as much land as they can get, that is a heaping load of Bullshit. Israel has given away a large quantity of land in peace deals in the past. As for Israel's past negotiations, again, they have made peace with multiple neighboring states. How many states has Palestine effectively made peace with? Again, if you want to deal with History, the second intifada was called as a tactic to attempt to get Israel to make larger concessions in peace negotiations (the idea being that following the death of Rabin Israel would be scared, and more willing to concede). The second intifada had the opposite effect, though, causing Israel to swing more conservative. (Don't tell me that Sharon started the second intifada, by the way. It began BEFORE Yom Kipur, when he went up on the temple mount. Sure, he fanned the fires, but one man going to a site that is holy in his religion isn't a justifiable reason for a holy war, no? Not one that you can honestly defend and still claim to hold any sort of morals.)
BOTH sides have done horrible things. If you are going to continue to try to blame Israel for the conflict, and ignore Gilad Shalit or Hamas' charter, then really, you are ONLY fanning the flames of hatred, rather than actually encouraging people to seek to influence the appropriate people to focus on REAL solutions.
They are building settlements, they are securing land that is contested without negotiating, they are blockading with collective punishment. And it appears they are only a quasi-democracy at best, with unending attempts to disenfranchise Israeli-Arabs, and ridiculous assertions that speaking against a certain ideology amounts to treason.
Sure that kind of crap happens here in the US, but it hasn't been in the mainstream since the 60s. That's the kind of crap you expect the KKK and Christian redneck theocrats (of all stripes) to pull and assert.
No one in this thread right now is denying that Israel's current government is doing serious things wrong. My issue is that attempting to focus on ONLY them (and then making larger claims like "all Israel ever wanted, since it was founded, is to take all of the land") is just hatemongering, intentional or no.
Israel wanting to take land is bullshit? See the map I linked, they've taken much of the West Bank, continue to build settlements, and refuse to return to their pre-1967 border (something Hamas offered a 10 year "Hudna" for). How many neighboring states has Israel made peace with? I'm pretty sure it's only one, in that only Egypt has diplomatic relations with Israel. Of course in order for that to happen, a potentially devastating war against Israel had to be waged, and the United States had to be put on alert.
I'm not blaming just one side, but Israel is the major cause of the current state of affairs. What do you expect Hamas and the people of Gaza to do? They see Fatah wants peace, but then they see that in moving towards peace, Israel has taken huge swaths of their land.
You never answered my question though. What is Fatah doing wrong? Why isn't there peace between the West Bank and Israel? Why are they still under occupation and why is Israel still building settlements?
Except Israel is the only one screwing things up right now. Everyone is ready to come to the table and talk things over, but Israel continues to expand settlements, kill activists, and be generally belligerent. That's why we're focusing on them.
Well I would argue Hamas isn't coming to the table, but we don't give Hamas anything. We don't go to absurd lengths to defend Hamas. We don't excuse the abominal, or ask for false equivalancy before condemning Hamas. We do that for Israel.
The sad part is, from my perspective, I am not really sure whose crime I find more abhorrent (as if it really matters). The crazy theologic wing-nuts who openly bomb and terrorize, or the crazy theologic wing nuts who bomb and terrorize while masquerading as a real democracy. Has is always been the case that both sides or either side have been like that? Of course not. However, it is the situation right now and somehow the US public has been duped into thinking that it's okay for one side to do that.
Be that as it may, the US is still shipping massive stockpiles of guns and money to one of these sides.
I agree completely. Livni had a good interview with the NYTimes a couple weeks ago. She's definitely not going to give up on becoming PM.
Also, oddly enough, Nicholas Kristof said, after visiting Gaza, that there is no humanitarian crisis. Apparently, smuggling makes up for any shortfalls in humanitarian aid. However, his observations dovetail with what most of us already believe; the blockade is counterproductive and stupid.
So here's hoping for Kadima victory in 2012, for continued development in the West Bank, and for the end of the blockade.
You realize that the US sends aid to BOTH sides, right?
It is DEFINITELY more aid to Israel, but for some reason no one ever seems to acknowledge that ceasing all aid to Israel would still leave us funding Palestine.
Show me were Hamas is ready right now.
Not just one dude in Hamas, but Hamas as a whole.
Fatah appears to be ready. That doesn't mean that Israel is the sole roadblock.
I'd say that if a place requires humanitarian aid to survive, there is a humanitarian crisis going.
People aren't starving to death, that's true. However, that's not the only way to define it.
You need to study some actual history. Israel has made peace with Egypt and Jordan, and traded large tracts of land for peace in those two deals (the Sinai and the East Bank, respectively.) There have also been multiple attempts at negotiations with Syria.
The idea that Israel is simply out to take land makes no sense. Why would they have given back the Sinai and the East Bank in that case? Keep in mind that there WERE Israeli settlements on both of those tracts of land, at one point.
Hamas' offer of a ten-year ceasefire is not an offer of peace. If Hamas wants to be treated like a legitimate government, then they should be held to the same standards. If Israel were to walk up to the table and say "we will only give Palestine a ten year cease-fire" would that honestly be at all acceptable?
Yes, people do, they just do it differently.
Hamas' actions are generally excused either by saying "Israel is to blame for opressing them and FORCING them to behave like this." or by saying "Hamas may be wrong to imprison Gilad Shalit and fire a few rockets, but the damage that they are doing is LESS than Israel, so it's not really important."
Both of these are constant refrains int he greater discourse on the conflict, and both of them serve to set Israel up as a the SOLE transgressor, and Palestinians as nothing more than victims. The truth, though, is that BOTH sides are transgressors, and BOTH sides are victims, and trying to paint the situation any other way is goosery.
Excuses are constantly made for Hamas. There is no need to "make it fair" by trying to point out Israel's issues. Read the actual discourse in this thread and you'll see that the majority of "pro-Israel" folks in here aren't trying to white-wash Israel's behavior. We are actually speaking out against the blockade and the settlements. If pro-Israel folks believe the BEST hope for peace is to encourage Israel to clean up their act, why aren't more pro-Palestinian folks discussing what can be done to stop Hamas' anti-peace behevaiors?