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Israel to Lessen Restrictions on Gaza Blockade

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Posts

  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Heh. All of that is absolutely factual. Zionism was founded in part as a rejection of religious Judaism's "waiting for the messiah" attitude. Herzl, the founder of modern Zionism, argued that starting a Jewish country in Palestine was a HORRIBLE idea because the territory is so widely disputed. Holocaust survivors lived in displaced persons camps, waiting to find a nation that would let them in.

    No part of that is untrue.

    georgersig.jpg
  • DarkCrawlerDarkCrawler Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Evander wrote: »
    Calling Israel Apartheid is really no different from any of the rest fo this stuff, DC.

    See, but it is, as demonstrated several times in the last thread where you chose to ignore the massive amout of evidence demonstrating that Israel meets every concievable standard for the crime of apartheid in the regions under it's rule. Do you really want to make me drag up the massive megapost again, of which you refused to engage a single word over the course of 90+ pages?

    And it's colonialism, not occupation, as the same thread also demonstrated. Settlements meet every standard for that as well. Remember megapost no. 2 where it was shown that Israel met about five laws out of half a hundred laws relating to occupation? Which you also ignored?

  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    DC, the problem with your arguments is tat they selectively ignore pieces of intent and history, as was ALSO pointed out numerous times in the last thread. They BEGIN with the idea that Israel is apartheid, and then seek to fill in the gaps to prove it, rather than objectively looking at the situation.



    Israel is NOT attempting to colonize the territories. There are factions within Israel who want this, yes, but that does not condemn the nation as a whole, which has a history of giving away land in exchange to peace. There is no good reason to assume that Israel has zero intention of giving up Gaza dn the West Bank. Another good example of this is the fact that Israel WON'T be giving back the Golan Heights to Syria. Israel itself makes a distinction between the Golan, and WB & Gaza, because WB & Gaza are NOT intended to be held in perpetuity.



    Israel is doing plenty of things wrong but the long term plan is to hand those lands over to a Palestinian government for them to create their own nation. Considering that plan is exactly what modern Palestinians want, that makes this a very different situation from South Africa, where the attempt was to essentially FORCE nations to develop along racial lines. Israel has no intention of forcing Palestinians who are Israeli citizens to leave Israel and move to Palestine once it is formed.



    The other issue with the accusation is that it is historical in nature, and yet ignores the histories of the surrounding nations. Egypt and Jordan, which are Arab nations, were the ones who originally forced the Palestinians to live in these camps, rather than integrating them in to their countires. That DOES NOT excuse any of Israel's behavior, but to paint the entire conflict as racial, when a big part of the history involves one arab nation mistreating another, is again ignoring pieces of the conflict in order to paint the picture who want to paint.

    georgersig.jpg
  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Evander wrote: »
    Israel is NOT attempting to colonize the territories. There are factions within Israel who want this, yes, but that does not condemn the nation as a whole, which has a history of giving away land in exchange to peace.

    That is like saying that there wasn't slavery in the U.S. because people opposed it. Israel has a history of continually obtaining more land... over and over and over again.

    wbBv3fj.png
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Evander wrote: »
    Egypt and Jordan, which are Arab nations, were the ones who originally forced the Palestinians to live in these camps, rather than integrating them in to their countires.

    The fact that you can't comprehend how fucking offensive and outright racist this statement is shows why you are an incredibly silly goose.

    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum
    Spoiler:
  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Evander wrote: »
    Egypt and Jordan, which are Arab nations, were the ones who originally forced the Palestinians to live in these camps, rather than integrating them in to their countires.

    The fact that you can't comprehend how fucking offensive and outright racist this statement is shows why you are an incredibly silly goose.

    It is lovely when people get offended on others' behalves

    The plight of the palestinians predates Israel by a LONGSHOT. that DOES NOT make ISrael's behaviors okay, but trying to minimize the plight of the palestinians as "Jews oppressing muslims" completely ignores the entire history of the region.

    Israel did not create this conflict, they inhereted it, and in recent years have been doing a piss poor job of handling it.

    georgersig.jpg
  • FencingsaxFencingsax Bondage Discipline Spider-Man Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Evander wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    Egypt and Jordan, which are Arab nations, were the ones who originally forced the Palestinians to live in these camps, rather than integrating them in to their countires.

    The fact that you can't comprehend how fucking offensive and outright racist this statement is shows why you are an incredibly silly goose.

    It is lovely when people get offended on others' behalves

    The plight of the palestinians predates Israel by a LONGSHOT. that DOES NOT make ISrael's behaviors okay, but trying to minimize the plight of the palestinians as "Jews oppressing muslims" completely ignores the entire history of the region.

    Israel did not create this conflict, they inhereted it, and in recent years have been doing a piss poor job of handling it.
    If by "recent" you mean "the past 60+", then yes.

    It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it
  • DarkCrawlerDarkCrawler Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Modern Israel is a country that meets every concievable standard for an apartheid nation and is considered that by several experts and people with personal experiences about the issue, including several Israelis. Israel's laws are very clearly geared towards the supremacy of a certain race, and it's actions in it's military controlled areas are blatantly geared towards that. Only way where history matters on the issue is demonstrating how it got into this situation.

    Since pretty much every Israeli goverment has supported the settlements, either clandestically or openly, and no Israeli government has ever denounced them, not to mention all those governments who have declared them to be an inseparable part of Israel, settlements are literally Israeli colonies. You can't break every law about occupation and ship in you civilians and still claim what you are doing is occupation. Especially if it has lasted longer then any recorded case of. occupation in history.

  • BastableBastable Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    UAE paper talking about how the current Israeli prim minster mayhaps be lieing when stating he's operating in good faith during negotiations.

    http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100718/FOREIGN/707179891/0/FRONTPAGE

    In the film, Mr Netanyahu says Israel must inflict “blows [on the Palestinians] that are so painful the price will be too heavy to be borne … A broad attack on the Palestinian Authority, to bring them to the point of being afraid that everything is collapsing”.

    Philippe about the tactical deployment of german Kradschützen during the battle of Kursk:
    "I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."

  • Mr. PokeylopeMr. Pokeylope Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Bastable wrote: »
    UAE paper talking about how the current Israeli prim minster mayhaps be lieing when stating he's operating in good faith during negotiations.

    http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100718/FOREIGN/707179891/0/FRONTPAGE

    In the film, Mr Netanyahu says Israel must inflict “blows [on the Palestinians] that are so painful the price will be too heavy to be borne … A broad attack on the Palestinian Authority, to bring them to the point of being afraid that everything is collapsing”.

    Not very surprising the Israeli government seems to think that every problem has a military solution. The sad part is that it is the same strategy that they have used in Lebanon, Cast Lead and most recently on the aid flotilla. A massive use of military force that will once again fail to achieve the political results they want and be a disaster for Israel's international relations.

  • ChopperDaveChopperDave Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Did anyone link this story yet?: Arab man who posed as Jew to seduce woman convicted of rape

    A man lying about himself in order to get a woman to have sex with him? Well I never!

    I like to think of this as a somewhat humorous reminder of the ethnic stratification in Israeli society. Arab dudes have to pretend to be Jewish to get any action, and pretending to be a Jew is a serious crime!

    3DS code: 3007-8077-4055
  • EgoEgo Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Yeah, it's been linked. Folks everywhere are running scared. Those of us who acknowledge that a lot of people lie about themselves for the sake of sex, anyhow.

    I agree it's a little fucked up. Look at the sentence he got, and look at comparable sentences given to IDF soldiers who commit egregious offenses. But hey, Israeli Arabs are treated well, right Evander? There's no institutional discrimination at all.

    Erik
  • BastableBastable Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Bastable wrote: »
    UAE paper talking about how the current Israeli prim minster mayhaps be lieing when stating he's operating in good faith during negotiations.

    http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100718/FOREIGN/707179891/0/FRONTPAGE

    In the film, Mr Netanyahu says Israel must inflict “blows [on the Palestinians] that are so painful the price will be too heavy to be borne … A broad attack on the Palestinian Authority, to bring them to the point of being afraid that everything is collapsing”.

    Not very surprising the Israeli government seems to think that every problem has a military solution. The sad part is that it is the same strategy that they have used in Lebanon, Cast Lead and most recently on the aid flotilla. A massive use of military force that will once again fail to achieve the political results they want and be a disaster for Israel's international relations.

    Seated on a sofa in the house, he tells the family that he deceived the US president of the time, Bill Clinton, into believing he was helping implement the Oslo accords, the US-sponsored peace process between Israel and the Palestinians, by making minor withdrawals from the West Bank while actually entrenching the occupation. He boasts that he thereby destroyed the Oslo process.


    He dismisses the US as “easily moved to the right direction” and calls high levels of popular American support for Israel “absurd”.

    He also suggests that, far from being defensive, Israel’s harsh military repression of the Palestinian uprising was designed chiefly to crush the Palestinian Authority led by Yasser Arafat so that it could be made more pliable for Israeli diktats.


    Sort of the opposite of dealing in good faith then. . .

    Philippe about the tactical deployment of german Kradschützen during the battle of Kursk:
    "I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."

  • EgoEgo Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Bastable wrote: »
    Bastable wrote: »
    UAE paper talking about how the current Israeli prim minster mayhaps be lieing when stating he's operating in good faith during negotiations.

    http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100718/FOREIGN/707179891/0/FRONTPAGE

    In the film, Mr Netanyahu says Israel must inflict “blows [on the Palestinians] that are so painful the price will be too heavy to be borne … A broad attack on the Palestinian Authority, to bring them to the point of being afraid that everything is collapsing”.

    Not very surprising the Israeli government seems to think that every problem has a military solution. The sad part is that it is the same strategy that they have used in Lebanon, Cast Lead and most recently on the aid flotilla. A massive use of military force that will once again fail to achieve the political results they want and be a disaster for Israel's international relations.

    Seated on a sofa in the house, he tells the family that he deceived the US president of the time, Bill Clinton, into believing he was helping implement the Oslo accords, the US-sponsored peace process between Israel and the Palestinians, by making minor withdrawals from the West Bank while actually entrenching the occupation. He boasts that he thereby destroyed the Oslo process.


    He dismisses the US as “easily moved to the right direction” and calls high levels of popular American support for Israel “absurd”.

    He also suggests that, far from being defensive, Israel’s harsh military repression of the Palestinian uprising was designed chiefly to crush the Palestinian Authority led by Yasser Arafat so that it could be made more pliable for Israeli diktats.


    Sort of the opposite of dealing in good faith then. . .

    Bad things are done on both sides! Et cetera ad infinitum.

    (I'm just getting it out of the way)

    Erik
  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Bastable wrote: »
    Bastable wrote: »
    UAE paper talking about how the current Israeli prim minster mayhaps be lieing when stating he's operating in good faith during negotiations.

    http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100718/FOREIGN/707179891/0/FRONTPAGE

    In the film, Mr Netanyahu says Israel must inflict “blows [on the Palestinians] that are so painful the price will be too heavy to be borne … A broad attack on the Palestinian Authority, to bring them to the point of being afraid that everything is collapsing”.

    Not very surprising the Israeli government seems to think that every problem has a military solution. The sad part is that it is the same strategy that they have used in Lebanon, Cast Lead and most recently on the aid flotilla. A massive use of military force that will once again fail to achieve the political results they want and be a disaster for Israel's international relations.

    Seated on a sofa in the house, he tells the family that he deceived the US president of the time, Bill Clinton, into believing he was helping implement the Oslo accords, the US-sponsored peace process between Israel and the Palestinians, by making minor withdrawals from the West Bank while actually entrenching the occupation. He boasts that he thereby destroyed the Oslo process.


    He dismisses the US as “easily moved to the right direction” and calls high levels of popular American support for Israel “absurd”.

    He also suggests that, far from being defensive, Israel’s harsh military repression of the Palestinian uprising was designed chiefly to crush the Palestinian Authority led by Yasser Arafat so that it could be made more pliable for Israeli diktats.


    Sort of the opposite of dealing in good faith then. . .

    What.

    Like, this doesn't surprise me in the least. What surprises me is that he would ever admit that on the record.

    While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
  • BastableBastable Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Ego wrote: »
    Bastable wrote: »
    Bastable wrote: »
    UAE paper talking about how the current Israeli prim minster mayhaps be lieing when stating he's operating in good faith during negotiations.

    http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100718/FOREIGN/707179891/0/FRONTPAGE

    In the film, Mr Netanyahu says Israel must inflict “blows [on the Palestinians] that are so painful the price will be too heavy to be borne … A broad attack on the Palestinian Authority, to bring them to the point of being afraid that everything is collapsing”.

    Not very surprising the Israeli government seems to think that every problem has a military solution. The sad part is that it is the same strategy that they have used in Lebanon, Cast Lead and most recently on the aid flotilla. A massive use of military force that will once again fail to achieve the political results they want and be a disaster for Israel's international relations.

    Seated on a sofa in the house, he tells the family that he deceived the US president of the time, Bill Clinton, into believing he was helping implement the Oslo accords, the US-sponsored peace process between Israel and the Palestinians, by making minor withdrawals from the West Bank while actually entrenching the occupation. He boasts that he thereby destroyed the Oslo process.


    He dismisses the US as “easily moved to the right direction” and calls high levels of popular American support for Israel “absurd”.

    He also suggests that, far from being defensive, Israel’s harsh military repression of the Palestinian uprising was designed chiefly to crush the Palestinian Authority led by Yasser Arafat so that it could be made more pliable for Israeli diktats.


    Sort of the opposite of dealing in good faith then. . .

    Bad things are done on both sides! Et cetera ad infinitum.

    (I'm just getting it out of the way)
    and Israel is always trying to give land away for peace, but those dirty turrurist just want to destroy us ect ect

    Philippe about the tactical deployment of german Kradschützen during the battle of Kursk:
    "I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."

  • BastableBastable Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Did anyone link this story yet?: Arab man who posed as Jew to seduce woman convicted of rape

    A man lying about himself in order to get a woman to have sex with him? Well I never!

    I like to think of this as a somewhat humorous reminder of the ethnic stratification in Israeli society. Arab dudes have to pretend to be Jewish to get any action, and pretending to be a Jew is a serious crime!

    Pretend to be jewish and sit on a motorbike outside of cafe's :winky:

    Philippe about the tactical deployment of german Kradschützen during the battle of Kursk:
    "I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."

  • Metal Gear Solid 2 DemoMetal Gear Solid 2 Demo Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    This feels like a build-up

    H.Res.1553 - Expressing support for the State of Israel's right to defend Israeli sovereignty, to protect the lives and safety of the Israeli people, and to use all means necessary to confront and eliminate nuclear threats posed by the Islamic Republic of Iran, including the use of military force if no other peaceful solution can be found within reasonable time to protect against such an immediate and existential threat to the State of Israel.
    July 22, 2010

    Mr. GOHMERT (for himself, Mr. AKIN, Mrs. BACHMANN, Mr. BARTLETT, Mr. BISHOP of Utah, Mrs. BLACKBURN, Mr. BONNER, Mr. BROUN of Georgia, Mr. BURTON of Indiana, Mr. CAMPBELL, Mr. CHAFFETZ, Mr. CONAWAY, Mr. CULBERSON, Ms. FALLIN, Mr. FLEMING, Mr. FRANKS of Arizona, Mr. GINGREY of Georgia, Ms. GRANGER, Mr. GRIFFITH, Mr. HENSARLING, Mr. HERGER, Mr. KING of Iowa, Mr. LAMBORN, Mr. LATTA, Mr. LOBIONDO, Mrs. LUMMIS, Mr. MARCHANT, Mr. NEUGEBAUER, Mr. PENCE, Mr. PITTS, Mr. POSEY, Mr. PRICE of Georgia, Mr. OLSON, Mr. ROONEY, Mrs. SCHMIDT, Mr. SHADEGG, Mr. SMITH of Texas, Mr. WESTMORELAND, Mr. ROSKAM, Mr. MCCOTTER, Mr. BROWN of South Carolina, Mr. RYAN of Wisconsin, Mr. MCCLINTOCK, Mr. JORDAN of Ohio, Mr. BARTON of Texas, Mr. KINGSTON, and Mr. CARTER) submitted the following resolution; which was referred to the Committee on Foreign Affairs

    Expressing support for the State of Israel’s right to defend Israeli sovereignty, to protect the lives and safety of the Israeli people, and to use all means necessary to confront and eliminate nuclear threats posed by the Islamic Republic of Iran, including the use of military force if no other peaceful solution can be found within reasonable time to protect against such an immediate and existential threat to the State of Israel.

    Whereas with the dawn of modern Zionism, the national liberation movement of the Jewish people, some 150 years ago, the Jewish people determined to return to their homeland in the Land of Israel from the lands of their dispersion;

    Whereas in 1922, the League of Nations mandated that the Jewish people were the legal sovereigns over the Land of Israel and that legal mandate has never been superseded;

    Whereas in the aftermath of the Nazi-led Holocaust from 1933 to 1945, in which the Germans and their collaborators murdered 6,000,000 Jewish people in a premeditated act of genocide, the international community recognized that the Jewish state, built by Jewish pioneers must gain its independence from Great Britain;

    Whereas the United States was the first nation to recognize Israel’s independence in 1948, and the State of Israel has since proven herself to be a faithful ally of the United States in the Middle East;

    Whereas the United States and Israel have a special friendship based on shared values, and together share the common goal of peace and security in the Middle East;

    Whereas, on October 20, 2009, President Barack Obama rightly noted that the United States-Israel relationship is a ‘bond that is much more than a strategic alliance.’;

    Whereas the national security of the United States, Israel, and allies in the Middle East face a clear and present danger from the Government of the Islamic Republic of Iran seeking nuclear weapons and the ballistic missile capability to deliver them;

    Whereas Israel would face an existential threat from a nuclear weapons-armed Iran;

    Whereas President Barack Obama has been firm and clear in declaring United States opposition to a nuclear-armed Iran, stating on November 7, 2008, ‘Let me state--repeat what I stated during the course of the campaign. Iran’s development of a nuclear weapon I believe is unacceptable.’;

    Whereas, on October 26, 2005, at a conference in Tehran called ‘World Without Zionism’, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad stated, ‘God willing, with the force of God behind it, we shall soon experience a world without the United States and Zionism’;

    Whereas the New York Times reported that during his October 26, 2005, speech, President Ahmadinejad called for ‘this occupying regime [Israel] to be wiped off the map’;

    Whereas, on April 14, 2006, Iranian President Ahmadinejad said, ‘Like it or not, the Zionist regime [Israel] is heading toward annihilation’;

    Whereas, on June 2, 2008, Iranian President Ahmadinejad said, ‘I must announce that the Zionist regime [Israel], with a 60-year record of genocide, plunder, invasion, and betrayal is about to die and will soon be erased from the geographical scene’;

    Whereas, on June 2, 2008, Iranian President Ahmadinejad said, ‘Today, the time for the fall of the satanic power of the United States has come, and the countdown to the annihilation of the emperor of power and wealth has started’;

    Whereas, on May 20, 2009, Iran successfully tested a surface-to-surface long range missile with an approximate range of 1,200 miles;

    Whereas Iran continues its pursuit of nuclear weapons;

    Whereas Iran has been caught building three secret nuclear facilities since 2002;

    Whereas Iran continues its support of international terrorism, has ordered its proxy Hizbullah to carry out catastrophic acts of international terrorism such as the bombing of the Jewish AMIA Center in Buenos Aires, Argentina, in 1994, and could give a nuclear weapon to a terrorist organization in the future;

    Whereas Iran has refused to provide the International Atomic Energy Agency with full transparency and access to its nuclear program;

    Whereas United Nations Security Council Resolution 1803 states that according to the International Atomic Energy Agency, ‘Iran has not established full and sustained suspension of all enrichment related and reprocessing activities and heavy-water-related projects as set out in resolution 1696 (2006), 1737 (2006) and 1747 (2007) nor resumed its cooperation with the IAEA under the Additional Protocol, nor taken the other steps required by the IAEA Board of Governors, nor complied with the provisions of Security Council resolution 1696 (2006), 1737 (2006) and 1747 (2007) . . .’;

    Whereas at July 2009’s G-8 Summit in Italy, Iran was given a September 2009 deadline to start negotiations over its nuclear programs and Iran offered a five-page document lamenting the ‘ungodly ways of thinking prevailing in global relations’ and included various subjects, but left out any mention of Iran’s own nuclear program which was the true issue in question;

    Whereas the United States has been fully committed to finding a peaceful resolution to the Iranian nuclear threat, and has made boundless efforts seeking such a resolution and to determine if such a resolution is even possible; and

    Whereas the United States does not want or seek war with Iran, but it will continue to keep all options open to prevent Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons: Now, therefore, be it

    Resolved, That the House of Representatives--

    (1) condemns the Government of the Islamic Republic of Iran for its threats of ‘annihilating’ the United States and the State of Israel, for its continued support of international terrorism, and for its incitement of genocide of the Israeli people;

    (2) supports using all means of persuading the Government of Iran to stop building and acquiring nuclear weapons;

    (3) reaffirms the United States bond with Israel and pledges to continue to work with the Government of Israel and the people of Israel to ensure that their sovereign nation continues to receive critical economic and military assistance, including missile defense capabilities, needed to address the threat of Iran; and

    (4) expresses support for Israel’s right to use all means necessary to confront and eliminate nuclear threats posed by Iran, defend Israeli sovereignty, and protect the lives and safety of the Israeli people, including the use of military force if no other peaceful solution can be found within a reasonable time.

    Spoiler:
  • [Tycho?][Tycho?] Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Did anyone link this story yet?: Arab man who posed as Jew to seduce woman convicted of rape

    A man lying about himself in order to get a woman to have sex with him? Well I never!

    I like to think of this as a somewhat humorous reminder of the ethnic stratification in Israeli society. Arab dudes have to pretend to be Jewish to get any action, and pretending to be a Jew is a serious crime!

    Yeah that is pretty funny, shitty for the guy though.

    And what would have happened if a Jewish guy pretended to be Arab in order to bang some Arab chick? As Israel is fair and just, I'm sure he would have gotten the same severity of sentence.

    ragesig.jpg

  • BastableBastable Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Evander wrote: »
    Egypt and Jordan, which are Arab nations, were the ones who originally forced the Palestinians to live in these camps, rather than integrating them in to their countires.

    The fact that you can't comprehend how fucking offensive and outright racist this statement is shows why you are an incredibly silly goose.

    especially considering Egyptians are not in fact Arabs. . . They speak Arabic and the majority follow a religion that erupted out of the Arabian peninsula but they are not ethnically Arab's. They're about as ethnically close to arabs as Persian's Kurds or Turk's are, which is not close at all. About as identical as Norman's and Franks are during the 9th and 10th centuries.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptians
    An estimated 76.4 million Egyptians live around the world, but the vast majority are in Egypt where ethnic Egyptians constitute about 94% (74 million) of the total population.[1] Ethnic minorities in Egypt are formed by Nubians, Berbers, Bedouins, Arabs, Beja and Dom.

    All non jews look the same eh?

    Philippe about the tactical deployment of german Kradschützen during the battle of Kursk:
    "I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."

  • [Tycho?][Tycho?] Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Bastable wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    Egypt and Jordan, which are Arab nations, were the ones who originally forced the Palestinians to live in these camps, rather than integrating them in to their countires.

    The fact that you can't comprehend how fucking offensive and outright racist this statement is shows why you are an incredibly silly goose.

    especially considering Egyptians are not in fact Arabs. . . They speak Arabic and the majority follow a religion that erupted out of the Arabian peninsula but they are not ethnically Arab's. They're about as ethnically close to arabs as Persian's Kurds or Turk's are, which is not close at all. About as identical as Norman's and Franks are during the 9th and 10th centuries.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptians
    An estimated 76.4 million Egyptians live around the world, but the vast majority are in Egypt where ethnic Egyptians constitute about 94% (74 million) of the total population.[1] Ethnic minorities in Egypt are formed by Nubians, Berbers, Bedouins, Arabs, Beja and Dom.

    All non jews look the same eh?

    Huh, I didn't know that. That must apply to all the "arabs" living in Africa. Makes sense when you think about it, the Arabs conquered a lot of land back in the day, but all those areas are subject to mingling with the local populations.

    Conversely, they're part of the Arab League so they seem to consider themselves as Arabs.

    ragesig.jpg

  • DarkCrawlerDarkCrawler Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Race is mostly a social construct anyway. Egyptians are arabs, genes really matter little in this context.

  • BastableBastable Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    It was not until the Nasser era more than a decade later that Arab nationalism, and by extension Arab socialism, became a state policy and a means with which to define Egypt's position in the Middle East and the world,[29] usually articulated vis-à-vis Zionism in the neighboring Jewish state. For a while Egypt and Syria formed the United Arab Republic. When the union was dissolved, Egypt continued to be known as the UAR until 1971, when Egypt adopted the current official name, the Arab Republic of Egypt.[30] The Egyptians' attachment to Arabism, however, was particularly questioned after the 1967 Six-Day War. Thousands of Egyptians had lost their lives and the country became disillusioned with Arab politics.[31] Nasser's successor Sadat, both through public policy and his peace initiative with Israel, revived an uncontested Egyptian orientation, unequivocally asserting that only Egypt and Egyptians were his responsibility. The terms "Arab", "Arabism" and "Arab unity", save for the new official name, became conspicuously absent.[32] (See also Liberal age and Republic sections.)

    Many Egyptians today feel that Egyptian and Arab identities are inextricably linked, and emphasize the central role that Egypt plays in the Arab world. Others continue to believe that Egypt and Egyptians are simply not Arab, emphasizing indigenous Egyptian heritage, culture and independent polity; pointing to the failures of Arab and pan-Arab nationalist policies; and publicly voicing objection to the present official name of the country.

    In late 2007, el-Masri el-Yom daily newspaper conducted an interview at a bus stop in the working-class district of Imbaba to ask citizens what Arab nationalism (el-qawmeyya el-'arabeyya) represented for them. One Egyptian Muslim youth responded, "Arab nationalism means that the Egyptian Foreign Minister in Jerusalem gets humiliated by the Palestinians, that Arab leaders dance upon hearing of Sadat's death, that Egyptians get humiliated in the Arab states of the Persian Gulf, and of course that Arab countries get to fight Israel until the last Egyptian soldier."[33] Another felt that,"Arab countries hate Egyptians", and that unity with Israel may even be more of a possibility than Arab nationalism, because he believes that Israelis would at least respect Egyptians.[33]

    Some contemporary prominent Egyptians who oppose Arab nationalism or the idea that Egyptians are Arabs include Secretary General of the Supreme Council of Antiquities Zahi Hawass,[34] popular writer Osama Anwar Okasha, Egyptian-born Harvard University Professor Leila Ahmed, Member of Parliament Suzie Greiss,[35] in addition to different local groups and intellectuals.[36] This understanding is also expressed in other contexts,[37][38] such as Neil DeRosa's novel Joseph's Seed in his depiction of an Egyptian character "who declares that Egyptians are not Arabs and never will be."[39]

    Egyptian critics of Arab nationalism contend that it has worked to erode and/or relegate native Egyptian identity by superimposing only one aspect of Egypt's culture. These views and sources for collective identification in the Egyptian state are captured in the words of a linguistic anthropologist who conducted fieldwork in Cairo:“ Historically, Egyptians have considered themselves as distinct from 'Arabs' and even at present rarely do they make that identification in casual contexts; il-'arab [the Arabs] as used by Egyptians refers mainly to the inhabitants of the Gulf states... Egypt has been both a leader of pan-Arabism and a site of intense resentment towards that ideology. Egyptians had to be made, often forcefully, into "Arabs" [during the Nasser era] because they did not historically identify themselves as such. Egypt was self-consciously a nation not only before pan-Arabism but also before becoming a colony of the British Empire. Its territorial continuity since ancient times, its unique history as exemplified in its pharaonic past and later on its Coptic language and culture, had already made Egypt into a nation for centuries. Egyptians saw themselves, their history, culture and language as specifically Egyptian and not "Arab."[40]


    Their social constructs/dilectic seem to aligin with their genetics in that the majority of egyptians are in fact not arabs. In the same way that Macedonians/Rome conquering the area did not magically turn them into Greeks/Romans. Arab/Fatimid/Mamaluk/Ottoman domination did not turn them into Arab's or Turks either.

    They define Arabs as an "other" therefore a social construct and their actual genetics and ethnicity are different from Arabs. The first time the state tried to identify Egypt as "arab" was relatively recently and mostly due to direct opposition to "Zionism."

    They are quite distinct from Palestinians so evendars asinine argument egypt should just swallow the refugee population created by Israels ethnic cleansing policies is abhorrent and racist.

    Philippe about the tactical deployment of german Kradschützen during the battle of Kursk:
    "I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."

  • DarkCrawlerDarkCrawler Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    They don't have responsibility of a majority of Palestinians regardless of their ethnicity because they aren't currently imposing any sort of control or demands over them. Israel, on the other hand rules over West Bank with complete and total control. Palestinians there are subjects of Israel with no rights whatsoever, living under a colonialist apartheid regime. It should give them citizenship or remove it's colonies from there. And no, it's not a temporary thing either seeing as it has already lasted for 60 years.

    In the past, when Egypt controlled Gaza, and Jordan controlled West Bank, it is my opinion they should have let them go or give them the rights to go with the imposed responsibilities as well. But Israel assumed responsibility for that long time ago, way back in 1967 when it started the Six Day War, defeated Egypt's and Jordan's armies and conquered said territories. They are Israel's now. I don't think a single politician who had part in Egypt's or Jordan's shitty actions with Palestinians is alive these days, I'm not sure why Evander keeps touting that thing.

    I do think Arab countries should give the current Palestinian refugees within their borders citizenship though. Ethnicity doesn't enter here. A majority of the refugees are second- or third-generation ones already. They are born inside those countries. They know nothing else. The rights of refugees inside Arab countries aren't too much better then the rights of majority of Israel's Palestinian subjects. Israel should fully compensate the 726,000 or so 1948-49 refugees, but unlike most people on "my side" I don't believe it has responsibility over them anymore. I think physical right of return to Israel proper is just one of the things Palestinians have to give up if they want to achieve their own state.

    Jordan has already given most of it's Palestinians citizenship already, anyway. Syria is pretty close. Lebanon and Egypt are terrible on everything relating to the refugees, though Lebanon has had some legitimate beefs with Palestinians in the past (the whole PLO state within a state thing).

  • BastableBastable Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    DarkCrawler: I agree with your post




    I do think Arab countries should give the current Palestinian refugees within their borders citizenship though. Ethnicity doesn't enter here. A majority of the refugees are second- or third-generation ones already. They are born inside those countries. They know nothing else. The rights of refugees inside Arab countries aren't too much better then the rights of majority of Israel's Palestinian subjects. Israel should fully compensate the 726,000 or so 1948-49 refugees, but unlike most people on "my side" I don't believe it has responsibility over them anymore. I think physical right of return to Israel proper is just one of the things Palestinians have to give up if they want to achieve their own state.

    Philippe about the tactical deployment of german Kradschützen during the battle of Kursk:
    "I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."

  • BurtletoyBurtletoy Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
  • DarkCrawlerDarkCrawler Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Burtletoy wrote: »
    http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gXp6fvvgQLELYgmlMBK-EaQ8A1WQD9HBE5T80

    Israel to take part in UN investigation into the flotilla.

    I guess the attempt at an internal investigation was too blatantly biased even for Israel's PR forces.

    I mean seriously. Maybe not have the main foreign investigator start a "Friends of Israel" group straight after his position is announced next time.

    Either way, I'm interested in seeing if something comes out of this. UN's opinion on Israel is pretty clear.

  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    [Tycho?] wrote: »
    Bastable wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    Egypt and Jordan, which are Arab nations, were the ones who originally forced the Palestinians to live in these camps, rather than integrating them in to their countires.

    The fact that you can't comprehend how fucking offensive and outright racist this statement is shows why you are an incredibly silly goose.

    especially considering Egyptians are not in fact Arabs. . . They speak Arabic and the majority follow a religion that erupted out of the Arabian peninsula but they are not ethnically Arab's. They're about as ethnically close to arabs as Persian's Kurds or Turk's are, which is not close at all. About as identical as Norman's and Franks are during the 9th and 10th centuries.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptians
    An estimated 76.4 million Egyptians live around the world, but the vast majority are in Egypt where ethnic Egyptians constitute about 94% (74 million) of the total population.[1] Ethnic minorities in Egypt are formed by Nubians, Berbers, Bedouins, Arabs, Beja and Dom.

    All non jews look the same eh?

    Huh, I didn't know that. That must apply to all the "arabs" living in Africa. Makes sense when you think about it, the Arabs conquered a lot of land back in the day, but all those areas are subject to mingling with the local populations.

    Conversely, they're part of the Arab League so they seem to consider themselves as Arabs.

    Isn't the Arab League a political construct as much as a cultural one? Countries can be part of the Arab political sphere without actually identifying themselves as "Arab". Plus the headquarters is in Cairo.

    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
    Isn't "Your sarcasm makes me wet," the highest compliment an Abh can pay a human?

    Only if said Abh is a member of the nobility.
  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    In the past, when Egypt controlled Gaza, and Jordan controlled West Bank, it is my opinion they should have let them go or give them the rights to go with the imposed responsibilities as well. But Israel assumed responsibility for that long time ago

    Whatever else in your post I may disagree with, I agree with the whole of this piece.

    My statement was more about people who harp on history in order to condemn Israel, but go ahead and ignore large chunks of said history. Israel is absolutely responsible for making certain changes right now, but it is NOT fair to accuse Israel of single-handedly creating this whole issue when so many other groups were also involved in the victimization of the Palestinians, including, at times, their own leadership.

    georgersig.jpg
  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Bastable wrote: »
    All non jews look the same eh?

    As has been said, the Egyptians are a part of the Arab League. Seeing as ethnicity itself is something of a social construct, I don't see any offense in referring to an Arab League member as an Arab nation.

    But sure, go ahead and call some one a bigot for disagreeing with you. That tactic always does WONDERS in terms of looking good in the public eye...

    georgersig.jpg
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