Like I said, the fiancee and I have had a LONG discussion about this- if we ever have kids we will be buying the most gender-neutral things we can until our child is old enough to decide for themselves what they want to play with.
And at no point will "but that is for boys/girls, why don't you do/use X instead" be said.
This just seems to be taking it a step further.
I too have had a long conversation with my fiancée about this. Are you my fiancee?
The only cavet is no matter the sex of my children they will be getting some generic legos because goddamnit I want to play with those again.
CommunistCow on
No, I am not really communist. Yes, it is weird that I use this name.
What's all this bullshit about 'forcing' stuff on Pop? They're letting the kid pick, and it very likely will in a few years. That's the danged opposite of forcing.
Too many people in here ablooing their own issues all over the forum.
The point is that the parents actually believe that the traditional way to raise a child is wrong. It's not about homosexuality, it's about their belief that raising Pop along traditional gender lines wouldn't make her/him the best normal and healthy human being.
And the problem with their plan is that they COMPLETELY ignored the fact that the rest of society is still raising their kids the old way, meaning that Pop is going to be released in to a society that, absolute best case scenario, is going to undo all of their hard work and socialized Pop with the gender roles that they avoided, and potentially do far worse harm.
Well it's Norway, so...
but whatever, saying their beliefs are incorrect or do not have the intended result is one thing. Saying that they're wrong for experimenting on a child is another. painting them as whackos or attention-whores is bullshit.
they aren't trying to get a reality so, but they ARE doing this for attention.
Rosa Parks didn't refuse to give up her seat because she was really comfortable, she refused to give it up for attention. It is not a negative to do something for attention, when you are going about it in the right way (if you endanger anyone, it should only be yourself), and when the reason you want attention is the right reason (bringing attention to racial injustice was definitely the right reason.)
I do believe that Pop's parents' intentions are pure. I'm not questioning their reasons at all. What concerns me is the use of Pop in their whole stunt. Pop did not choose to be a willing participant in all of this, Pop was born and told that this is what it was supposed to do.
Evander on
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
Like I said, the fiancee and I have had a LONG discussion about this- if we ever have kids we will be buying the most gender-neutral things we can until our child is old enough to decide for themselves what they want to play with.
And at no point will "but that is for boys/girls, why don't you do/use X instead" be said.
This just seems to be taking it a step further.
I too have had a long conversation with my fiancée about this. Are you my fiancee?
The only cavet is no matter the sex of my children they will be getting some generic legos because goddamnit I want to play with those again.
This is because legos are fucking awesome and all children should have them. In fact, kids should just pop out with a sack of legos.
Shakes, do you have any research backing you whatsoever?
Or is this just distrustful rage at the status quo being flaunted?
I'm honestly curious.
The onus is not on me to prove anything. I am not the one performing first-time experiments on my child.
Also, please do not take my stance against experimenting on one's child as me defending the status quo. I dislike gender roles as much as anyone else. I just do not think this is a good way to battle them.
I don't think the onus is really on anyone here, aside from some assumption that anyone who wants to try new things in regards to childrearing needs to clear it with society first.
These people don't believe that gender roles are naturally occuring. My parents didn't believe in spanking me or subjecting me to Judeo-Christian religion. Why do we have to clear completely unintrusive shit like this with people like you before we try it? It's not like they're denying their kid medical care for religious reasons or crazy shit like that. They're letting him or her dress him/herself based on the feelings he/she wakes up with. Hell, I remember wanting to wear capes and sombreros in public when I was a kid. I don't remember my folks clearing that with the city council.
You don't. Here's a question though: Did you parents go to the local paper and tell the journalists there how they were raising you by not spanking you, and not instilling Judeo-Christian religious values in you? Did a reporter every show up randomly at your house and ask your parents how they raised you?
That, to me, is what takes this from "new parenting technique" to "social guinea pig".
That is somewhat questionable, but in all honesty I don't really view it as a big deal. If they had sold their kid's naming rights to google or something, that would be unforgivable. As it stands, they're trying something new and people find it interesting enough to report on it. Seeking attention or gaining it spontaneously is really a weak distinction here. Unless they're seen as unfit parents in some other way, wanting to get your kid in the news is hardly a major offense. People with more traditional views of childrearing do bizarre shit to get their babies attention all the time. That's one of those things that happens, I guess.
Like I said, the fiancee and I have had a LONG discussion about this- if we ever have kids we will be buying the most gender-neutral things we can until our child is old enough to decide for themselves what they want to play with.
And at no point will "but that is for boys/girls, why don't you do/use X instead" be said.
This just seems to be taking it a step further.
I too have had a long conversation with my fiancée about this. Are you my fiancee?
The only cavet is no matter the sex of my children they will be getting some generic legos because goddamnit I want to play with those again.
I am pretty certain everyone in this thread can agree with this.
where's that lego-thread anyway?
Julius on
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surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
You don't. Here's a question though: Did you parents go to the local paper and tell the journalists there how they were raising you by not spanking you, and not instilling Judeo-Christian religious values in you? Did a reporter every show up randomly at your house and ask your parents how they raised you?
That, to me, is what takes this from "new parenting technique" to "social guinea pig".
Do we even know if they sought public attention through media? Yes they did give an interview but that might not have been their idea.
CommunistCow on
No, I am not really communist. Yes, it is weird that I use this name.
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
Shakes, do you have any research backing you whatsoever?
Or is this just distrustful rage at the status quo being flaunted?
I'm honestly curious.
The onus is not on me to prove anything. I am not the one performing first-time experiments on my child.
Also, please do not take my stance against experimenting on one's child as me defending the status quo. I dislike gender roles as much as anyone else. I just do not think this is a good way to battle them.
I don't think the onus is really on anyone here, aside from some assumption that anyone who wants to try new things in regards to childrearing needs to clear it with society first.
These people don't believe that gender roles are naturally occuring. My parents didn't believe in spanking me or subjecting me to Judeo-Christian religion. Why do we have to clear completely unintrusive shit like this with people like you before we try it? It's not like they're denying their kid medical care for religious reasons or crazy shit like that. They're letting him or her dress him/herself based on the feelings he/she wakes up with. Hell, I remember wanting to wear capes and sombreros in public when I was a kid. I don't remember my folks clearing that with the city council.
You don't. Here's a question though: Did you parents go to the local paper and tell the journalists there how they were raising you by not spanking you, and not instilling Judeo-Christian religious values in you? Did a reporter every show up randomly at your house and ask your parents how they raised you?
That, to me, is what takes this from "new parenting technique" to "social guinea pig".
That is somewhat questionable, but in all honesty I don't really view it as a big deal. If they had sold their kid's naming rights to google or something, that would be unforgivable. As it stands, they're trying something new and people find it interesting enough to report on it. Seeking attention or gaining it spontaneously is really a weak distinction here. Unless they're seen as unfit parents in some other way, wanting to get your kid in the news is hardly a major offense. People with more traditional views of childrearing do bizarre shit to get their babies attention all the time. That's one of those things that happens, I guess.
Well, I have a hard time believing that a reporter just came around looking for this story, I have a sinking suspicion that parents shopped the story (though could be wrong).
Like I said, the fiancee and I have had a LONG discussion about this- if we ever have kids we will be buying the most gender-neutral things we can until our child is old enough to decide for themselves what they want to play with.
And at no point will "but that is for boys/girls, why don't you do/use X instead" be said.
This just seems to be taking it a step further.
I too have had a long conversation with my fiancée about this. Are you my fiancee?
The only cavet is no matter the sex of my children they will be getting some generic legos because goddamnit I want to play with those again.
This is because legos are fucking awesome and all children should have them. In fact, kids should just pop out with a sack of legos.
My mother literally has a 5 gallon bucket full of legos from my childhood that she says she's keeping for the grandkids that don't exist yet.
You don't. Here's a question though: Did you parents go to the local paper and tell the journalists there how they were raising you by not spanking you, and not instilling Judeo-Christian religious values in you? Did a reporter every show up randomly at your house and ask your parents how they raised you?
That, to me, is what takes this from "new parenting technique" to "social guinea pig".
Do we even know if they sought public attention through media? Yes they did give an interview but that might not have been their idea.
We don't, no....but do reporters regularly go around asking random people about their child rearing habits? Journalists had to find out about this somehow.
It's gender identity, not some fucking silly political agenda or clearly immoral opinions. You may view gender as being as trivial as deciding whether or not you're gonna be a democrat or a republican, but I think it's a little more complicated than that.
What? Racial integration and religious affiliation are big fucking deals to people, and were even moreso 50 years ago. My fiance had abuse heaped on him growing up atheist in the freaking 1980's in southern California. Interracial pairings are still taboo to some today because "think of the children!" and it's only BECAUSE of people who insisted on falling in love and reproducing generations ago that we can look at multiracial folks and say "oh. well, turns out it's no biggie." and we STILL have people saying "what culture will little Bobby identify with? He'll be so confused, arglebargle!"
And you know what? If the parents don't support the child and adequately educate and prepare them for the world around them, it IS a problem for some kids. That doesn't make it an unworthwhile endeavor. So if Pop's parents aren't at the very least setting Pop aside and giving the "now, you may encounter some silly geese in your life" speech, then we can talk about how badly they are preparing Pop for life.
My concern is more about how well Pop's parents think they can really shield Pop from the all-pervasiveness of gender socialization. I get that they can choose their friends, but little black girls start choosing the white doll over the black one by age three even when their entire families are black. How the parents can keep Pop from watching any media ever (because messages will seep in) will be interesting.
Now take all of that, and add it on top of the fact that we don't know what the fuck will happen to Pop.
See what I'm saying? Maybe we should find out a little more about how gender identity works before we decide to throw a kid into it with his entire life at stake.
Part of raising children is not knowing what the fuck will happen. No parent is perfect.
We know that pressure to conform to typical gender roles can cause adverse effects and I've seen no indication from anyone here that a lack of pressure to conform to the standard would do so as well. The closest I've seen is that they will face pressure from society to conform and they will resulting in the child either conforming if they haven't chosen on their own to do so already or not conforming. In the end the child is being given the choice and I don't see anything wrong with that. This argument seems about as distasteful as arguments from not so long ago that homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to raise children because we don't know if being raised by two dads or two moms would be harmful to children. There seems to be something phobic in both cases.
The most interesting part of this whole debate for me is how many people automatically refer to the child as male. I think I've seen about 6 posters do so by this point.
Shakes, do you have any research backing you whatsoever?
Or is this just distrustful rage at the status quo being flaunted?
I'm honestly curious.
The onus is not on me to prove anything. I am not the one performing first-time experiments on my child.
Also, please do not take my stance against experimenting on one's child as me defending the status quo. I dislike gender roles as much as anyone else. I just do not think this is a good way to battle them.
I don't think the onus is really on anyone here, aside from some assumption that anyone who wants to try new things in regards to childrearing needs to clear it with society first.
These people don't believe that gender roles are naturally occuring. My parents didn't believe in spanking me or subjecting me to Judeo-Christian religion. Why do we have to clear completely unintrusive shit like this with people like you before we try it? It's not like they're denying their kid medical care for religious reasons or crazy shit like that. They're letting him or her dress him/herself based on the feelings he/she wakes up with. Hell, I remember wanting to wear capes and sombreros in public when I was a kid. I don't remember my folks clearing that with the city council.
You don't. Here's a question though: Did you parents go to the local paper and tell the journalists there how they were raising you by not spanking you, and not instilling Judeo-Christian religious values in you? Did a reporter every show up randomly at your house and ask your parents how they raised you?
That, to me, is what takes this from "new parenting technique" to "social guinea pig".
That is somewhat questionable, but in all honesty I don't really view it as a big deal. If they had sold their kid's naming rights to google or something, that would be unforgivable. As it stands, they're trying something new and people find it interesting enough to report on it. Seeking attention or gaining it spontaneously is really a weak distinction here. Unless they're seen as unfit parents in some other way, wanting to get your kid in the news is hardly a major offense. People with more traditional views of childrearing do bizarre shit to get their babies attention all the time. That's one of those things that happens, I guess.
Well, I have a hard time believing that a reporter just came around looking for this story, I have a sinking suspicion that parents shopped the story (though could be wrong).
Well, I have no idea how that went down.
But I do know that my county fair back home has a "cutest baby" contest that has 3 dozen or so entries every year. Looking for attention because you have a kid isn't a terribly rare thing. :P
Like I said, the fiancee and I have had a LONG discussion about this- if we ever have kids we will be buying the most gender-neutral things we can until our child is old enough to decide for themselves what they want to play with.
And at no point will "but that is for boys/girls, why don't you do/use X instead" be said.
This just seems to be taking it a step further.
I too have had a long conversation with my fiancée about this. Are you my fiancee?
The only cavet is no matter the sex of my children they will be getting some generic legos because goddamnit I want to play with those again.
This is because legos are fucking awesome and all children should have them. In fact, kids should just pop out with a sack of legos.
My mother literally has a 5 gallon bucket full of legos from my childhood that she says she's keeping for the grandkids that don't exist yet.
Legos are the greatest thing you can give a kid.
One of the first thing I bought my daughter when she was old enough to manipulate things with her little sausage rolls was a gigantic bag of big lego blocks.
I want to stress the point that I get what's going on here and I fully support the idea of further exploring racial equality and roles and society's view on them. If it changes for the better, I'm absolutely in support of it.
But I don't think it's time for a life to be put at stake in the hopes that views on race will change.
I want to stress the point that I get what's going on here and I fully support the idea of further exploring equality of homosexuals and roles and society's view on them. If it changes for the better, I'm absolutely in support of it.
But I don't think it's time for a life to be put at stake in the hopes that views on homosexuality will change.
Somebody has to try it. If you really, genuinely believed something, you'd raise your kids and express that belief to them and hope they expressed it as well.
I want to be clear that I'm not calling you racist or anti-gay. I'm just pointing out that, in the face of uncertainty, these statements could have as easily been made by well-meaning parents in 1890 or 1960.
I said this before: the two are different. Hiding homosexuality is actively harmful, and there's no choice in being homosexual or heterosexual. But gender is so difficult for us to define, and it's a pretty safe assumption that if you're child is a boy and you raise it as a boy, he's going to turn out okay (or at least not be damaged as a result). Now these parents have put this kid in jeopardy for no justifiable reason.
Hiding homosexuality wasn't actively harmful in 1960. Homosexuality got you sent to prison and/or chemically castrated. Nor was hiding a view of racial equality in 1890, people weren't exactly fond of the folks who told them to stop being mean to blacks.
My parents raised me not to be a racist and not to be anti-gay. And I grew up in a conservative area (one of the most conservative areas of my country) where racism and anti-gay sentiment was the norm among my peers. I got into lots of arguments and more than one physical fight over my views. I was even teased in school.
So, my parents raised me wrong, I suppose?
Man, I don't see how you don't get the distinction. I really don't.
1) you were taught not to be racist.
2) you were taught not to be anti-gay/lesbian/bisexual.
good. we should be teaching children that
I don't know how you don't get the similarity. I really don't.
We should be teaching our children that, but teaching them that wasn't always known to be the right thing to do, and it CERTAINLY wasn't the popular thing to do. Does that mean it was wrong to do when it was unpopular?
I've asked you that, twice, and you just dodge answering. Well, what is it? Does Zombiemambo circa 1890 raise his kids to be a racist for the sake of shoehorning them into society, or does he not?
3) you should not hate anyone for their gender identity.
that's all well and good, and I agree. but the situation is
4) I have a child and I'm going to let it choose what gender it wants to be.
that doesn't teach anyone not to hate that kid, does it? he's walking into a minefield.
Saying it was okay to be gay or aboriginal didn't teach anyone not to hate me either, in school. So was it wrong, or was it right? Which? You can't have both.
Shakes, do you have any research backing you whatsoever?
Or is this just distrustful rage at the status quo being flaunted?
I'm honestly curious.
The onus is not on me to prove anything. I am not the one performing first-time experiments on my child.
Also, please do not take my stance against experimenting on one's child as me defending the status quo. I dislike gender roles as much as anyone else. I just do not think this is a good way to battle them.
I don't think the onus is really on anyone here, aside from some assumption that anyone who wants to try new things in regards to childrearing needs to clear it with society first.
These people don't believe that gender roles are naturally occuring. My parents didn't believe in spanking me or subjecting me to Judeo-Christian religion. Why do we have to clear completely unintrusive shit like this with people like you before we try it? It's not like they're denying their kid medical care for religious reasons or crazy shit like that. They're letting him or her dress him/herself based on the feelings he/she wakes up with. Hell, I remember wanting to wear capes and sombreros in public when I was a kid. I don't remember my folks clearing that with the city council.
You don't. Here's a question though: Did you parents go to the local paper and tell the journalists there how they were raising you by not spanking you, and not instilling Judeo-Christian religious values in you? Did a reporter every show up randomly at your house and ask your parents how they raised you?
That, to me, is what takes this from "new parenting technique" to "social guinea pig".
That is somewhat questionable, but in all honesty I don't really view it as a big deal. If they had sold their kid's naming rights to google or something, that would be unforgivable. As it stands, they're trying something new and people find it interesting enough to report on it. Seeking attention or gaining it spontaneously is really a weak distinction here. Unless they're seen as unfit parents in some other way, wanting to get your kid in the news is hardly a major offense. People with more traditional views of childrearing do bizarre shit to get their babies attention all the time. That's one of those things that happens, I guess.
Well, I have a hard time believing that a reporter just came around looking for this story, I have a sinking suspicion that parents shopped the story (though could be wrong).
One thing that pops (heh.) into mind is that if the parents did seek the attention, it could have been to bring their story to the attention of other parents who might be (or become) similarly inclined, thus spreading the "experiment" - if that's what we're calling it - around a bit. The more people who participate, actually, the more exposure Pop's generation is going to have to children who do not conform to gender roles, thus making it easier on the children involved.
Or it could spawn a big witch-hunty backlash, I dunno. Sometimes I'm not sure about humanity after reading PA threads .
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
Shakes, do you have any research backing you whatsoever?
Or is this just distrustful rage at the status quo being flaunted?
I'm honestly curious.
The onus is not on me to prove anything. I am not the one performing first-time experiments on my child.
Also, please do not take my stance against experimenting on one's child as me defending the status quo. I dislike gender roles as much as anyone else. I just do not think this is a good way to battle them.
I don't think the onus is really on anyone here, aside from some assumption that anyone who wants to try new things in regards to childrearing needs to clear it with society first.
These people don't believe that gender roles are naturally occuring. My parents didn't believe in spanking me or subjecting me to Judeo-Christian religion. Why do we have to clear completely unintrusive shit like this with people like you before we try it? It's not like they're denying their kid medical care for religious reasons or crazy shit like that. They're letting him or her dress him/herself based on the feelings he/she wakes up with. Hell, I remember wanting to wear capes and sombreros in public when I was a kid. I don't remember my folks clearing that with the city council.
You don't. Here's a question though: Did you parents go to the local paper and tell the journalists there how they were raising you by not spanking you, and not instilling Judeo-Christian religious values in you? Did a reporter every show up randomly at your house and ask your parents how they raised you?
That, to me, is what takes this from "new parenting technique" to "social guinea pig".
That is somewhat questionable, but in all honesty I don't really view it as a big deal. If they had sold their kid's naming rights to google or something, that would be unforgivable. As it stands, they're trying something new and people find it interesting enough to report on it. Seeking attention or gaining it spontaneously is really a weak distinction here. Unless they're seen as unfit parents in some other way, wanting to get your kid in the news is hardly a major offense. People with more traditional views of childrearing do bizarre shit to get their babies attention all the time. That's one of those things that happens, I guess.
Well, I have a hard time believing that a reporter just came around looking for this story, I have a sinking suspicion that parents shopped the story (though could be wrong).
Well, I have no idea how that went down.
But I do know that my county fair back home has a "cutest baby" contest that has 3 dozen or so entries every year. Looking for attention because you have a kid isn't a terribly rare thing. :P
I think entering your kid in a "Cutest Baby" contest and seeking out reporters to tell them how you're raising your child in a gender neutral way are a bit different, but I understand the basis of your point. And again, we don't KNOW the parents shopped anything...it's just how I feel it went down, from what little I know, and my general sense of how journalism works.
It's gender identity, not some fucking silly political agenda or clearly immoral opinions. You may view gender as being as trivial as deciding whether or not you're gonna be a democrat or a republican, but I think it's a little more complicated than that.
What? Racial integration and religious affiliation are big fucking deals to people, and were even moreso 50 years ago. My fiance had abuse heaped on him growing up atheist in the freaking 1980's in southern California. Interracial pairings are still taboo to some today because "think of the children!" and it's only BECAUSE of people who insisted on falling in love and reproducing generations ago that we can look at multiracial folks and say "oh. well, turns out it's no biggie." and we STILL have people saying "what culture will little Bobby identify with? He'll be so confused, arglebargle!"
And you know what? If the parents don't support the child and adequately educate and prepare them for the world around them, it IS a problem for some kids. That doesn't make it an unworthwhile endeavor. So if Pop's parents aren't at the very least setting Pop aside and giving the "now, you may encounter some silly geese in your life" speech, then we can talk about how badly they are preparing Pop for life.
My concern is more about how well Pop's parents think they can really shield Pop from the all-pervasiveness of gender socialization. I get that they can choose their friends, but little black girls start choosing the white doll over the black one by age three even when their entire families are black. How the parents can keep Pop from watching any media ever (because messages will seep in) will be interesting.
Now take all of that, and add it on top of the fact that we don't know what the fuck will happen to Pop.
See what I'm saying? Maybe we should find out a little more about how gender identity works before we decide to throw a kid into it with his entire life at stake.
Part of raising children is not knowing what the fuck will happen. No parent is perfect.
We know that pressure to conform to typical gender roles can cause adverse effects and I've seen no indication from anyone here that a lack of pressure to conform to the standard would do so as well. The closest I've seen is that they will face pressure from society to conform and they will resulting in the child either conforming if they haven't chosen on their own to do so already or not conforming. In the end the child is being given the choice and I don't see anything wrong with that. This argument seems about as distasteful as arguments from not so long ago that homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to raise children because we don't know if being raised by two dads would be harmful to children. There seems to be something phobic in both cases.
The most interesting part of this whole debate for me is how many people automatically refer to the child as male. I think I've seen about 6 posters do so by this point.
Sorry, I thought I'd been good about using gender-neutral pronouns. I haven't thought of Pop as being either, to be honest.
Seriously, what is up with this bizarre pluralisation of Lego?
Is this some kind of American thing?
Lego is a product, that is composed of legos.
A lego is an individual block or component of the greater mass of legos.
Legos are the aggregate masses of dozens of unbuilt kits your relatives got you for christmas that got jumbled together and used to build spacecraft in nigh-infinite variations.
You don't. Here's a question though: Did you parents go to the local paper and tell the journalists there how they were raising you by not spanking you, and not instilling Judeo-Christian religious values in you? Did a reporter every show up randomly at your house and ask your parents how they raised you?
That, to me, is what takes this from "new parenting technique" to "social guinea pig".
Do we even know if they sought public attention through media? Yes they did give an interview but that might not have been their idea.
We don't, no....but do reporters regularly go around asking random people about their child rearing habits? Journalists had to find out about this somehow.
No they don't, but it is possible that they freaked out enough people that a local news paper took interest.
CommunistCow on
No, I am not really communist. Yes, it is weird that I use this name.
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
You don't. Here's a question though: Did you parents go to the local paper and tell the journalists there how they were raising you by not spanking you, and not instilling Judeo-Christian religious values in you? Did a reporter every show up randomly at your house and ask your parents how they raised you?
That, to me, is what takes this from "new parenting technique" to "social guinea pig".
Do we even know if they sought public attention through media? Yes they did give an interview but that might not have been their idea.
We don't, no....but do reporters regularly go around asking random people about their child rearing habits? Journalists had to find out about this somehow.
No they don't, but it is possible that they freaked out enough people that a local news paper took interest.
True, that is possible. Again, we don't really know.
You don't. Here's a question though: Did you parents go to the local paper and tell the journalists there how they were raising you by not spanking you, and not instilling Judeo-Christian religious values in you? Did a reporter every show up randomly at your house and ask your parents how they raised you?
That, to me, is what takes this from "new parenting technique" to "social guinea pig".
Do we even know if they sought public attention through media? Yes they did give an interview but that might not have been their idea.
We don't, no....but do reporters regularly go around asking random people about their child rearing habits? Journalists had to find out about this somehow.
Yeah, no one does something silly like investigative journalism, they just wait for PR people to come up to them and tell them about stuff.
Now, I will admit to some ageism on my part here. Myself being in my mid-20s, some amount of my criticism of Pop's parents stems from the fact that they themselves came up with this grandious plan in their early 20s. If they had been in their early 30s, and not 34 years old, I might trust them a lot more with this.
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surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
edited June 2010
Must be, because every American I know calls them "legos".
THIS IS MADNESS
Lego is a product, that is composed of legos.
A lego is an individual block or component of the greater mass of legos.
Legos are the aggregate masses of dozens of unbuilt kits your relatives got you for christmas that got jumbled together and used to build spacecraft in nigh-infinite variations.
Nay sirrah.
Lego is short for Lego (bricks) when referring to the units. Especially when one is dealing with the general case (a bag of lego) one should steer clear of this abominable pluralisation at all costs.
At all costs
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
You don't. Here's a question though: Did you parents go to the local paper and tell the journalists there how they were raising you by not spanking you, and not instilling Judeo-Christian religious values in you? Did a reporter every show up randomly at your house and ask your parents how they raised you?
That, to me, is what takes this from "new parenting technique" to "social guinea pig".
Do we even know if they sought public attention through media? Yes they did give an interview but that might not have been their idea.
We don't, no....but do reporters regularly go around asking random people about their child rearing habits? Journalists had to find out about this somehow.
Yeah, no one does something silly like investigative journalism, they just wait for PR people to come up to them and tell them about stuff.
Are you serious? Yes, investigative journalism exists. No, I don't think there are many investigative journalists on the trail of off beat parenting techniques in Nordic towns, I'm sorry.
You don't. Here's a question though: Did you parents go to the local paper and tell the journalists there how they were raising you by not spanking you, and not instilling Judeo-Christian religious values in you? Did a reporter every show up randomly at your house and ask your parents how they raised you?
That, to me, is what takes this from "new parenting technique" to "social guinea pig".
Do we even know if they sought public attention through media? Yes they did give an interview but that might not have been their idea.
We don't, no....but do reporters regularly go around asking random people about their child rearing habits? Journalists had to find out about this somehow.
No they don't, but it is possible that they freaked out enough people that a local news paper took interest.
True, that is possible. Again, we don't really know.
So then we shouldn't berate the parents for things we don't know.
CommunistCow on
No, I am not really communist. Yes, it is weird that I use this name.
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KageraImitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered Userregular
edited June 2010
Nah, I like using the word legos. Thank you.
Kagera on
My neck, my back, my FUPA and my crack.
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KageraImitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered Userregular
You don't. Here's a question though: Did you parents go to the local paper and tell the journalists there how they were raising you by not spanking you, and not instilling Judeo-Christian religious values in you? Did a reporter every show up randomly at your house and ask your parents how they raised you?
That, to me, is what takes this from "new parenting technique" to "social guinea pig".
Do we even know if they sought public attention through media? Yes they did give an interview but that might not have been their idea.
We don't, no....but do reporters regularly go around asking random people about their child rearing habits? Journalists had to find out about this somehow.
Yeah, no one does something silly like investigative journalism, they just wait for PR people to come up to them and tell them about stuff.
Are you serious? Yes, investigative journalism exists. No, I don't think there are many investigative journalists on the trail of off beat parenting techniques in Nordic towns, I'm sorry.
Yes, that's just how it happened. Some journalist thought one day 'hey I'm gonna go find crazy parenting stories' instead of, y'know, hearing something word-of-mouth then going 'hmm, I should find out more'.
Must be, because every American I know calls them "legos".
THIS IS MADNESS
Lego is a product, that is composed of legos.
A lego is an individual block or component of the greater mass of legos.
Legos are the aggregate masses of dozens of unbuilt kits your relatives got you for christmas that got jumbled together and used to build spacecraft in nigh-infinite variations.
Nay sirrah.
Lego is short for Lego (bricks) when referring to the units. Especially when one is dealing with the general case (a bag of lego) one should steer clear of this abominable pluralisation at all costs.
At all costs
Plural of things require plural of words.
It's not like they're deer or fish or moose or quail or...
You don't. Here's a question though: Did you parents go to the local paper and tell the journalists there how they were raising you by not spanking you, and not instilling Judeo-Christian religious values in you? Did a reporter every show up randomly at your house and ask your parents how they raised you?
That, to me, is what takes this from "new parenting technique" to "social guinea pig".
Do we even know if they sought public attention through media? Yes they did give an interview but that might not have been their idea.
We don't, no....but do reporters regularly go around asking random people about their child rearing habits? Journalists had to find out about this somehow.
No they don't, but it is possible that they freaked out enough people that a local news paper took interest.
True, that is possible. Again, we don't really know.
So then we shouldn't berate the parents for things we don't know.
So lets assume for a second the parents didn't shop this, some journalist just knocked on their door and asked some questions.
Now, maybe I'm a privacy nut, but if a journalist showed up at my door and wanted to write a story on how I raise my kids, I would tell them to buzz off, even if I knew everything I was doing was right. I don't have the pressing need to have my parenting skills judged by society.
So, lets say a random journalist just showed up, they still chose to use that journalist as a way to draw attention to what they were doing, something they certainly didn't have to do. If the argument is that they are "totally convinced what they are doing is right", why the need for social validation?
How someone wants to raise their kids is (mostly) their choice, it's when it starts hitting news papers that it starts to bother me, and what makes me think it's more of a spectacle than "good parenting".
You don't. Here's a question though: Did you parents go to the local paper and tell the journalists there how they were raising you by not spanking you, and not instilling Judeo-Christian religious values in you? Did a reporter every show up randomly at your house and ask your parents how they raised you?
That, to me, is what takes this from "new parenting technique" to "social guinea pig".
Do we even know if they sought public attention through media? Yes they did give an interview but that might not have been their idea.
We don't, no....but do reporters regularly go around asking random people about their child rearing habits? Journalists had to find out about this somehow.
Yeah, no one does something silly like investigative journalism, they just wait for PR people to come up to them and tell them about stuff.
Are you serious? Yes, investigative journalism exists. No, I don't think there are many investigative journalists on the trail of off beat parenting techniques in Nordic towns, I'm sorry.
Yes, that's just how it happened. Some journalist thought one day 'hey I'm gonna go find crazy parenting stories' instead of, y'know, hearing something word-of-mouth then going 'hmm, I should find out more'.
So you know FOR A FACT, that a journalist just showed up at these peoples house to interview them? Have a source?
You don't. Here's a question though: Did you parents go to the local paper and tell the journalists there how they were raising you by not spanking you, and not instilling Judeo-Christian religious values in you? Did a reporter every show up randomly at your house and ask your parents how they raised you?
That, to me, is what takes this from "new parenting technique" to "social guinea pig".
Do we even know if they sought public attention through media? Yes they did give an interview but that might not have been their idea.
We don't, no....but do reporters regularly go around asking random people about their child rearing habits? Journalists had to find out about this somehow.
Yeah, no one does something silly like investigative journalism, they just wait for PR people to come up to them and tell them about stuff.
Are you serious? Yes, investigative journalism exists. No, I don't think there are many investigative journalists on the trail of off beat parenting techniques in Nordic towns, I'm sorry.
Yes, that's just how it happened. Some journalist thought one day 'hey I'm gonna go find crazy parenting stories' instead of, y'know, hearing something word-of-mouth then going 'hmm, I should find out more'.
So you know FOR A FACT, that a journalist just showed up at these peoples house to interview them? Have a source?
YOU'RE the one making assumptions on the parent's motivations, not me. Nice attempt to reverse that back on me though.
Kagera on
My neck, my back, my FUPA and my crack.
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
YOU'RE the one making assumptions on the parent's motivations, not me. Nice attempt to reverse that back on me though.
You're the one saying "INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALISM" like it precludes the parents from having shopped this around. So, either you have facts that this was just stumbled upon, or you don't. In any case, yelling "INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALISM" doesn't negate the parents having put this story in a news paper, when it didn't really need to be there. There WAS an attention grab there, whether you like it or not.
YOU'RE the one making assumptions on the parent's motivations, not me. Nice attempt to reverse that back on me though.
You're the one saying "INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALISM" like it precludes the parents from having shopped this around. So, either you have facts that this was just stumbled upon, or you don't. In any case, yelling "INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALISM" doesn't negate the parents having put this story in a news paper, when it didn't really need to be there. There WAS an attention grab there, whether you like it or not.
Hey you asked 'how could the media find out about this kid' like it was some impossible task to gather news without reading a goddamned press release.
Also like the 'they should shut up about or else they are fame whores'.
Posts
I too have had a long conversation with my fiancée about this. Are you my fiancee?
The only cavet is no matter the sex of my children they will be getting some generic legos because goddamnit I want to play with those again.
Too many people in here ablooing their own issues all over the forum.
they aren't trying to get a reality so, but they ARE doing this for attention.
Rosa Parks didn't refuse to give up her seat because she was really comfortable, she refused to give it up for attention. It is not a negative to do something for attention, when you are going about it in the right way (if you endanger anyone, it should only be yourself), and when the reason you want attention is the right reason (bringing attention to racial injustice was definitely the right reason.)
I do believe that Pop's parents' intentions are pure. I'm not questioning their reasons at all. What concerns me is the use of Pop in their whole stunt. Pop did not choose to be a willing participant in all of this, Pop was born and told that this is what it was supposed to do.
This is because legos are fucking awesome and all children should have them. In fact, kids should just pop out with a sack of legos.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
I am pretty certain everyone in this thread can agree with this.
where's that lego-thread anyway?
It's kind of embarrassing o.O
Do we even know if they sought public attention through media? Yes they did give an interview but that might not have been their idea.
Well, I have a hard time believing that a reporter just came around looking for this story, I have a sinking suspicion that parents shopped the story (though could be wrong).
But whatevs!
Legos are the greatest thing you can give a kid.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
We don't, no....but do reporters regularly go around asking random people about their child rearing habits? Journalists had to find out about this somehow.
Seriously, what is up with this bizarre pluralisation of Lego?
Is this some kind of American thing?
Part of raising children is not knowing what the fuck will happen. No parent is perfect.
We know that pressure to conform to typical gender roles can cause adverse effects and I've seen no indication from anyone here that a lack of pressure to conform to the standard would do so as well. The closest I've seen is that they will face pressure from society to conform and they will resulting in the child either conforming if they haven't chosen on their own to do so already or not conforming. In the end the child is being given the choice and I don't see anything wrong with that. This argument seems about as distasteful as arguments from not so long ago that homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to raise children because we don't know if being raised by two dads or two moms would be harmful to children. There seems to be something phobic in both cases.
The most interesting part of this whole debate for me is how many people automatically refer to the child as male. I think I've seen about 6 posters do so by this point.
But I do know that my county fair back home has a "cutest baby" contest that has 3 dozen or so entries every year. Looking for attention because you have a kid isn't a terribly rare thing. :P
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
One of the first thing I bought my daughter when she was old enough to manipulate things with her little sausage rolls was a gigantic bag of big lego blocks.
Must be, because every American I know calls them "legos".
I don't know how you don't get the similarity. I really don't.
We should be teaching our children that, but teaching them that wasn't always known to be the right thing to do, and it CERTAINLY wasn't the popular thing to do. Does that mean it was wrong to do when it was unpopular?
I've asked you that, twice, and you just dodge answering. Well, what is it? Does Zombiemambo circa 1890 raise his kids to be a racist for the sake of shoehorning them into society, or does he not?
Saying it was okay to be gay or aboriginal didn't teach anyone not to hate me either, in school. So was it wrong, or was it right? Which? You can't have both.
One thing that pops (heh.) into mind is that if the parents did seek the attention, it could have been to bring their story to the attention of other parents who might be (or become) similarly inclined, thus spreading the "experiment" - if that's what we're calling it - around a bit. The more people who participate, actually, the more exposure Pop's generation is going to have to children who do not conform to gender roles, thus making it easier on the children involved.
Or it could spawn a big witch-hunty backlash, I dunno. Sometimes I'm not sure about humanity after reading PA threads
I think entering your kid in a "Cutest Baby" contest and seeking out reporters to tell them how you're raising your child in a gender neutral way are a bit different, but I understand the basis of your point. And again, we don't KNOW the parents shopped anything...it's just how I feel it went down, from what little I know, and my general sense of how journalism works.
Sorry, I thought I'd been good about using gender-neutral pronouns. I haven't thought of Pop as being either, to be honest.
A lego is an individual block or component of the greater mass of legos.
Legos are the aggregate masses of dozens of unbuilt kits your relatives got you for christmas that got jumbled together and used to build spacecraft in nigh-infinite variations.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
No they don't, but it is possible that they freaked out enough people that a local news paper took interest.
True, that is possible. Again, we don't really know.
Yeah, no one does something silly like investigative journalism, they just wait for PR people to come up to them and tell them about stuff.
THIS IS MADNESS
Nay sirrah.
Lego is short for Lego (bricks) when referring to the units. Especially when one is dealing with the general case (a bag of lego) one should steer clear of this abominable pluralisation at all costs.
At all costs
Are you serious? Yes, investigative journalism exists. No, I don't think there are many investigative journalists on the trail of off beat parenting techniques in Nordic towns, I'm sorry.
So then we shouldn't berate the parents for things we don't know.
Yes, that's just how it happened. Some journalist thought one day 'hey I'm gonna go find crazy parenting stories' instead of, y'know, hearing something word-of-mouth then going 'hmm, I should find out more'.
You digusting bag of filth. You crude, rude, lewd, bag of pre-chewed food dude.
It's Lego.
It's not like they're deer or fish or moose or quail or...
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
So lets assume for a second the parents didn't shop this, some journalist just knocked on their door and asked some questions.
Now, maybe I'm a privacy nut, but if a journalist showed up at my door and wanted to write a story on how I raise my kids, I would tell them to buzz off, even if I knew everything I was doing was right. I don't have the pressing need to have my parenting skills judged by society.
So, lets say a random journalist just showed up, they still chose to use that journalist as a way to draw attention to what they were doing, something they certainly didn't have to do. If the argument is that they are "totally convinced what they are doing is right", why the need for social validation?
How someone wants to raise their kids is (mostly) their choice, it's when it starts hitting news papers that it starts to bother me, and what makes me think it's more of a spectacle than "good parenting".
So you know FOR A FACT, that a journalist just showed up at these peoples house to interview them? Have a source?
Legos
It's how the language works, folks.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
YOU'RE the one making assumptions on the parent's motivations, not me. Nice attempt to reverse that back on me though.
You're the one saying "INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALISM" like it precludes the parents from having shopped this around. So, either you have facts that this was just stumbled upon, or you don't. In any case, yelling "INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALISM" doesn't negate the parents having put this story in a news paper, when it didn't really need to be there. There WAS an attention grab there, whether you like it or not.
Sir
SIR
SIRRR
I must ask you to cease and desist. Lego is, indeed, like sheep.
If you absolutely have to specify a plural you can use bricks. Or pieces. "Hand me those Lego pieces".
Lego is a phenomenon man.
Hey you asked 'how could the media find out about this kid' like it was some impossible task to gather news without reading a goddamned press release.
Also like the 'they should shut up about or else they are fame whores'.