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Bat-Thread: Bruce Wayne, International Hairy Chested Love God of Mystery

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Posts

  • MunchMunch Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Jason Todd was sent to jail. Damian was a brain-washed kid, and the core plot of Batman and Robin is about Dick's mission to rehabilitate him.

  • KeithKeith Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Is it in softcover trade yet keith

    the first 7 issues are out in trade, yeah

  • KeithKeith Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    cshadow42 wrote: »
    In Winich's introduction of Jason Todd, he made a big deal about needing to kill the Joker. So why hasn't he gone out and done it himself yet?

    Because, as Winick has said, Jason doesn't want to kill the Joker. He wants Batman to kill Joker for killing Jason. The whole reason Jason hates Bruce is because Jason died and nothing changed.

  • cshadow42cshadow42 Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Sure, Jason Todd is sent to jail. But he's almost immediately released by one of the Bat-boys (Dick/Damien?).

    And sure, rehabilitate Damien. But get that boy some counseling! Putting him in an environment of violence and peril doesn't do anyone's psyche any good, let alone someone who is already as deeply disturbed as he is.

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  • KeithKeith Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Tim released Jason from prison before Battle for the Cowl so he could go hear Bruce's last will.

    Then he dressed up as Batman and fell in the river

    then he dressed up as the new Red Hood and Dick had him arrested

  • cshadow42cshadow42 Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Keith wrote: »
    Tim released Jason from prison before Battle for the Cowl so he could go hear Bruce's last will.

    Then he dressed up as Batman and fell in the river

    then he dressed up as the new Red Hood and Dick had him arrested

    Oh, ok. Sorry, haven't been following Batman lately; I've been trade-waiting on stuff.

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  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Honestly, what's jail going to do to someone like Jason?

    Only way he doesn't break out is if Waller recruits him first.

  • cshadow42cshadow42 Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Honestly, what's jail going to do to someone like Jason?

    Only way he doesn't break out is if Waller recruits him first.

    Two words: Phantom Zone

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  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Yes, nobody ever escapes the Phantom Zone!

  • cshadow42cshadow42 Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Yes, nobody ever escapes the Phantom Zone!

    They escape it a hell of a lot less often than other prisons, such as Arkham Asylum.

    Though I liked the alternate-Superman's solution of frontal lobotomies... I can't remember where that was from though...

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  • KeithKeith Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    It was from the Justice League cartoon

    and they wouldn't put Jason in the Phantom Zone because he's not a villain. He only kills criminals. The rest of the Bats still think they can save him

  • cshadow42cshadow42 Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Usually in comics, once the "borderline" hero kills, they interpret that as the "point of no return".

    Though I suppose they did make an exception for Huntress. I can't remember who she killed, though she did try to kill Prometheus. But then again, who hasn't tried to kill Prometheus?

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  • KeithKeith Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Plenty of heroes that they associate with have killed people

    It's just that they don't kill people to say "hey why aren't you doing this, Bruce?" so they're not as annoying

  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    They should just dump all the villains on Anti-Matter Earth. If you can't rehabilitate them, send them to a place where their particular brand of violence and cruelty is considered normal.

  • MunchMunch Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
  • Silver_MageSilver_Mage Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Sounds interesting.

    Now you have me confused between Earth 3 and Anti-Matter Earth.

  • FuruFuru Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Go read Grant Morrison's Earth-2. That's Anti-matter Earth.

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  • TexiKenTexiKen Was it Kierkegaard or Dick Van Patten who said, Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Keith wrote: »
    speaking of Batgirl (well, in the DC thread)

    Dustin Nguyen is gonna be the ongoing artist starting in November
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    I like Lee Garbett's art, but I'll never say no to Dustin Nguyen

    So this pretty much means Streets of Gotham is canceled then. Fine by me, really.


    Marcus To has done every issue since he joined Red Robin though, right (I just started with Nicieza's work)? That deserves a thumbs up :^:

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  • HadjiQuestHadjiQuest Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Was Nguyen doing House of Hush? Is Streets canceled?

  • LuxLux Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    You know how in Kingdom Come, once Magog killed The Joker, the world went to hell because all the new heroes lost any sense of boundaries or morality? If the heroes in modern day DCU knew the future would turn out that way if they ever killed villains, would that be a suitable excuse for sparing villains to the readership?

    Because the constant "I'd be no better than my enemy," and "there is no turning back after that," excuses seem to be kinda thin in terms of big picture logic.

  • FuruFuru Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Wanting an excuse is the readership's problem, not the writers.

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  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Lux wrote: »
    You know how in Kingdom Come, once Magog killed The Joker, the world went to hell because all the new heroes lost any sense of boundaries or morality? If the heroes in modern day DCU knew the future would turn out that way if they ever killed villains, would that be a suitable excuse for sparing villains to the readership?

    Because the constant "I'd be no better than my enemy," and "there is no turning back after that," excuses seem to be kinda thin in terms of big picture logic.

    Kingdom Come mostly happened because of the explosion in the meta population. Joker's death was a milestone, but it wasn't the cause.

    Also, it's better for the stories if everyone's reasons are personal.

  • FencingsaxFencingsax Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Lux wrote: »
    You know how in Kingdom Come, once Magog killed The Joker, the world went to hell because all the new heroes lost any sense of boundaries or morality? If the heroes in modern day DCU knew the future would turn out that way if they ever killed villains, would that be a suitable excuse for sparing villains to the readership?

    Because the constant "I'd be no better than my enemy," and "there is no turning back after that," excuses seem to be kinda thin in terms of big picture logic.

    The reason Batman doesn't kill is pretty simple. 1) If he started killing people, that would just be one more dude in a wacky costume offing people in Gotham, and 2) He's supposed to bring Gotham hope, and he can't do that if he kills. Specifically, he's supposed to be Gotham's last hope, that the innocent and regular people trust and put their faith in. It doesn't work if he's seen as being human enough to start killing people that irritate him.

    And before you say "but he'd be killing only criminals!", exactly where would the line be? Would he only kill murderers? Why draw the line there, why not child abusers and rapists? And then it's a slippery slope down to being just another Joker.

    It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it
  • Just_Bri_ThanksJust_Bri_Thanks Seething with rage from a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited August 2010
    Also, if he started killing then any insiders he may have in the police department evaporate. See Damien-Batman being hunted by the police in that recent issue...

    Some days I just want to smack people with a rolled up newspaper. Or a phone book.
    A folding chair is looking like an attractive option right now too...
  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    That whole Paladin thing in JLA is a pretty could explanation of why Batman shouldn't kill.

    As for why he doesn't I don't think it's for logical or ethical reasons
    So much as it is because he holds a negative view of murder due to his parents' murder. I feel this way die to the fact that Batman makes moral and intellectual compromises all the time, which proves he isn't beholden to a general, inflexible code of conduct. At times he'll sever beneficial relationships and present himself as a terrible figure rather than some beacon of hope, but he never compromises on the killing thing.

    Ultimately, the fact that he doesn't kill defines him more than his public persona or his mission statement, as it's the only thing about him that never changes.

  • DarkWarriorDarkWarrior __BANNED USERS
    edited August 2010
    There's also the fact that by killing someone he may become a Joe Chill to a child somewhere, a monster that haunts them for the rest of their lives. I dont think he'd want to inflict that on someone.

    ...it's in the shape of a giant c**k.
  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    There was an episode of BTAS that actually showed him confronting that very fear. It's the one where Nightwing explains why he quit as Robin to Tim Drake, and it's pretty good, not just because it lent more depth to Batman but also because it depicted him as a vehicle for rehabilitation as well as punishment.

    I always like when they show him in that light in the comics as well, like when he helps that teenage prostitute turn her life around.

  • DarkWarriorDarkWarrior __BANNED USERS
    edited August 2010
    What happened in the episode?

    ...it's in the shape of a giant c**k.
  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Batman roughs up a goon in front of his family despite Robin's protests, and the goon's kid ends up freaking out. The incident is part of Dick's larger explanation for why he quit.

    Later, in the present, Dick and Tim end up finding the former goon's wallet on a pickpocket. They track him down again and find that he was given a job at Wayne Enterprises, and that Bruce still checks up on him every now and then.

    I'm sure I'm missing some details, but that's the gist of it.

  • DarkWarriorDarkWarrior __BANNED USERS
    edited August 2010
    Batman roughs up a goon in front of his family despite Robin's protests, and the goon's kid ends up freaking out. The incident is part of Dick's larger explanation for why he quit.

    Later, in the present, Dick and Tim end up finding the former goon's wallet on a pickpocket. They track him down again and find that he was given a job at Wayne Enterprises, and that Bruce still checks up on him every now and then.

    I'm sure I'm missing some details, but that's the gist of it.

    Oh cool. Yeah the Joker doesn't leave anyone behind except Harley but by killing him he becomes no better than the man who killed his parents in his eyes and he probably hates that man more than anything.

    Also watching Begins, Bruces mother really does get shafted in all media I've seen. you'd think she spent his childhood drinking and banging their rich neighbours.

    ...it's in the shape of a giant c**k.
  • TexiKenTexiKen Was it Kierkegaard or Dick Van Patten who said, Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    She did read him Goodnight Moon though.

    Might explain why he's all about fighting crime at night (until Morrison made him go back in time and create the bat cult)

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  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    I think writers generally believe that you can't give a stoic, alpha male character a strong relationship with his mother. Now, in the less sexist 21st century, it'd be nice to see that change.

    My thinking is that you could just make her a counterpart to Thomas. He influenced Bruce in a moral and intellectual way, and she helped nurture the other aspects of his personality like his sense of adventure and capacity for compassion. After all, if Thomas Wayne was the only major influence in Bruce's life, he'd probably have just ended up a surgeon in an emergency room or something. Without some secondary influence acting alongside Thomas and the incident in Crime Alley itself, you need something else pushing Bruce down a road that's just as much about wish-fulfillment as righting wrongs.

  • Stand, Killer QueenStand, Killer Queen Registered User
    edited August 2010
    Nah, that's Zorro's influence.

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  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    I think writers generally believe that you can't give a stoic, alpha male character a strong relationship with his mother. Now, in the less sexist 21st century, it'd be nice to see that change.

    My thinking is that you could just make her a counterpart to Thomas. He influenced Bruce in a moral and intellectual way, and she helped nurture the other aspects of his personality like his sense of adventure and capacity for compassion. After all, if Thomas Wayne was the only major influence in Bruce's life, he'd probably have just ended up a surgeon in an emergency room or something. Without some secondary influence acting alongside Thomas and the incident in Crime Alley itself, you need something else pushing Bruce down a road that's just as much about wish-fulfillment as righting wrongs.

    I agree. A sense of personal involvement could also be what Bruce's mother gives him. Whereas from his father he gets the desire to achieve intellectually and morally his father was also a captain of industry and led the fight against what he percieved as injustices through policy and board-room decision. I think Bruce should from inherit from his mother a sense of personal, very close, physical involvement with the effets of crime and poverty. Maybe when Thomas Wayne was making the decisions to send out relief to the poor it was his wife who was on the streets organising and giving it out to the very people who needed it.

    If it was just for his father Bruce would have continued as CEO of his father's business, and would have done his bit from there. If it was just for his mother he maybe would have cast off his industrial past and perhaps become and aid worker, a doctor or soemthing like that. As it is he has the drives of both and so even though he is this industrial leader he also works directly on the streets as Batman. In that sense the death of his parents darkened and twisted the dual nature he inherited somewhat. Bruce Wayne leads a fight against poverty but is also a playboy and shallow socialite. Batman works on the streets but is a violent symbol of fear, something which I suspect his mother would not approve of, and that certainly is less compassionate (though Batman can be just that) and more tightly disciplined rage.

  • DarkWarriorDarkWarrior __BANNED USERS
    edited August 2010
    He is Batman because both of them died, so they both had enough influence on him for him to completely warp his life based on that event. But because noone ever bothers investigating his mother, his influence in media all comes from his dad. I mean I think his mom only had one line in the film just before she got shot.

    I mean fathers are important but aren't mothers almost godly in the eyes of a child?

    ...it's in the shape of a giant c**k.
  • Unco-ordinatedUnco-ordinated Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    I think writers generally believe that you can't give a stoic, alpha male character a strong relationship with his mother. Now, in the less sexist 21st century, it'd be nice to see that change.

    My thinking is that you could just make her a counterpart to Thomas. He influenced Bruce in a moral and intellectual way, and she helped nurture the other aspects of his personality like his sense of adventure and capacity for compassion. After all, if Thomas Wayne was the only major influence in Bruce's life, he'd probably have just ended up a surgeon in an emergency room or something. Without some secondary influence acting alongside Thomas and the incident in Crime Alley itself, you need something else pushing Bruce down a road that's just as much about wish-fulfillment as righting wrongs.

    I can't remember if this was canon beforehand but this does seem to be getting explored somewhat in the current Streets of Gotham arc. The prelude seemed to make it pretty clear that Martha was the one to push Thomas Wayne down the philanthropist route.

    I'd also completely forgotten that Martha's maiden name is Kane, which makes me wonder if Bruce and Kate are cousins.

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  • The LuggageThe Luggage Registered User
    edited August 2010
    I'd also completely forgotten that Martha's maiden name is Kane, which makes me wonder if Bruce and Kate are cousins.

    Wait, what?

    So the people that are going to hire Bruce in #5 are the Kanes?

    That issue is going to be awesome.

    Interminable
  • KyouguKyougu Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Anyone picked up Batman:Beyond this week? Surprising better than the last two, and I liked the art a lot more.

    Question though:
    Spoiler:

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  • LuxLux Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Kyougu wrote: »
    Anyone picked up Batman:Beyond this week? Surprising better than the last two, and I liked the art a lot more.

    Question though:
    Spoiler:

    Don't think so.

  • TexiKenTexiKen Was it Kierkegaard or Dick Van Patten who said, Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    CBR interview with Daniel about his Batman stuff

    The new art style is brought up:

    Recently, it seems your art has experimented in a few ways in terms of both the cartooning and the line work. In #701, your Batman and Superman reminded me of a mix of Frank Quitely and Art Adams, and as you said, you've been inking yourself lately. How much of this is a natural growth in your style versus changes you've made while Sandu was off for a spell?

    During the two-issue Riddler arc that Guillem illustrated, I fell ill and needed heavy doses of steroids and other drugs. I wasn't able to hold my pencil tightly and my hand shook. I was a little scared that this was going to be permanent. As I got better, I still wasn't ready to draw anything yet, but I instead pulled out the inking supplies I never use and started just playing around. Quills and brush work always felt cumbersome and uncooperative in my hands for a long as I can remember. But somehow, now, they felt natural in my hands. For the first time, I felt confident with the quill and even more so now, the brush.

    During my short break and illness, I knew that I wanted to return to "Batman" with something fresh. Something a bit more exaggerated and less reliant on the rules that go along with a more realistic style. I felt the time was right to have a little more fun with the style during Grant's two-part "R.I.P." story. I could try some things out and not be committed to the style through a long arc. Once I decide on a style, well, I'm stuck with it until the arc ends.

    Right now, I'm taking what I liked from those two issues and punching it up and polishing it to begin my next arc. I'm pretty happy with the new art direction, much of which I'm able to achieve with the inking techniques I've been honing. I've become a pretty big fan of older generation comic strip artists from the '40s, '50s and '60s – guys names you don't hear often but were masters in their time.

    I'm trying with my new work to bring that kind of made-for-black-and-white print sensibility to my work. So it looks like you can print it in black and white and not need color to get the mood. It's really a new aspect of my art that I'm incredibly excited about. I can't wait to lay my pencils down in the morning and get to what really breathes life into the art. The inks!

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