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Five die on Israel/Lebanon border clash
Posts
when someone has helicopters, artillery, and all sorts of guns aimed at you, the idea of firing warning shots is a bit absurd
you don't fire warning shots at anyone
that's why they're warning shots
timing?
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The last paragraph is quite informative. Had it coming I'd say....
Isn't that the exact scenario that many used to justify the flotilla folks getting violent? (israel fired warning shots which they took as a sign of aggression)
For once, Israel was doing nothing wrong. Now, if new information comes out that shows israel in the wrong, then sure, let's all revisit it, but for the time being, this is how it is even according to the UN. The folks who are trying to get Israel to share the blame here have a CLEAR bias, and it is kind of disgusting.
And that's all there really is to it, it seems to me. Don't shoot at people cutting down their own trees!
Anniversary of the end of the 2006 war is coming soon.
There can never be peace while their kind continues to exist
Excellent.
Just to get it out of the way:
Who in this thread is blaming Israel? Or are you mad at some other people?
http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=305219
Not sure how LEGIT this link is or how valid that site is. I found it reading neogaf btw.
Israel told the UN guys that day they were going to be on/around/over the border to cut down a tree, UN says "this is going to cause trouble, hold up." They call the Lebanese, Israel goes "fuck y'all we do what we want" and does it anyway. Lebanese go "hey we just said we didn't want you crossing into disputed territory and you do it anyway?" and fire warning shots in the air. Israelis then call down artillery.
Completely consistent with the accounts of both sides and how Israel sees its neighbors.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
But at least Burtletoy got his answer.
The "sending word" part or the "no time" part? We've pretty much confirmed the former, and the latter, although not well confirmed, does seem to wrap things up really well.
Evander is that you?
If I'm willing to criticize my own country's actions I sure as hell am not going to be intimidated into whitewashing the bunch of hawk Republicans who run Israel.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
Hezbollah is actually capable of standing up to Israel, they sort of humiliated them in the last war and was a contributing factor in driving them out of Lebanon. It's probably the most competent paramilitary organization in the world, at least in the Middle East, and gets a lot of financial and military help from Syria and Iran. Plus it has popular support.
It's just that in any combat between them, Lebanon will always take the brunt of Israel's weapons.
And there is no consensus between the sides on them being "warning shots". And Lebanon doesn't deny that those "warning shots" killed an Israeli Lt. Colonel.
They're just serving up semantic bullshit so people like you can spin this into it being Israel's fault, when all the facts that can't be disputed point to the contrary.
On the other hand, if they weren't given the time to verify and get the word out, it makes sense that the soldiers would assume that Israel was dicking around in Lebanese territory when they saw Israeli soldiers using a crane to reach over the landmark most people round the blue line to.
The main cause of this seems to be a benign lack of foresight on the part of whoever planned the thing (most likely a regional commander unused to international politics). Either he forgot to check what side of the fence the tree was on after determining the location of the tree relative to the blue line until the last minute and didn't want to mess up his schedule by delaying the op, or he forgot that the Lebanese government couldn't take a foreign military commander at his word and how long it can take for news to make it from the diplomats to the soldiers.
Or the Lebanese soldiers are just trying to lie their way out of a court martial.
When you build a fence on the border you build it with enough of your territory in front of the fence so you have justification for taking action against anyone standing right in front of your fence. That also means that the guys in control on the other side of the border don't have much justification to do anything when you are in front of the god damned fence that you just built.
Are we going to play "speculate how Israel fucked this up" for the entire lifetime of this thread?
Are you really questioning that Israel couldn't have done this better with retrospect? It obviously took its having the right of way for granted without considering that having the right of way doesn't preclude being cautious. This was a petty (in magnitude, I can't remember the right term) action that Israel decided to rush which led to an unforeseen reaction from the Lebanese. Yes, Lebanon was rash and at fault, but Israel should know to be careful and not take chances for the sake of expediency in border matters. Its action was amateurish and you can bet that whoever planned it is going to get in all kinds of trouble for not punting over to the Israeli version of the State Department like he should have.
Look, the girl was wearing a mini skirt. Clearly, the rapist was at fault for raping her, but she could've taken a few more precautions.
The border seems to be rather disputed.
No, the rapists at fault, but the girl was stupid. If a third party had dressed her (an analogy built on the fact that government action are the action of a bunch of people), he should get in all sorts of trouble for endangering her in such a way.
The blue line is usually assumed to be the operational border, but the soldiers i the area can't see it so the assumption is likely that it's close enough to the fence for the fence to act as the border, especially when it's hard to be sure how far from the fence on has to be to be over the border.
Yeah, two countries that fight over every inch of land are going to just 'round' the border to the nearest fence. Soldiers that are members of this country and in charge of protecting and watching their border aren't briefed of its actual location?
What a load of bull. Considering some people here know what the blue line is, and I imagine every single norther-Israelite knows where the border is -- it is not a stretch to think that every soldier in charge of protecting the border on both sides knows where the border is.
As a semi-related aside: I've visited this border and sat at some of the places pictured in these articles. It's really shocking when you're there (or most borders of Israel) to realize how close they are to a country they don't get along with.
That's why that mini-skirt line is trap, you silly goose. Rapists don't rape girls because they're wearing mini-skirts, they do it because they want to rape a girl. If you can't understand a simple thing like that then you need to reevaluate your view of the world.
They know it's a distance beyond the fence that varies along the length of the fence. The Lebanese soldiers know it's there, and may have a fair grasp of its general location, but trying to remember where it is at every point along the fence within their patrol area is ridiculous, especially when pretty much nobody is interested in dicking around within that area.
bullets?
If your analogy doesn't work, that's your problem, not mine. You asked whether I think the victim of a crime is at fault for the crime because he or she did something to raise the chances of being a victim of the crime, and I answered that not being at fault for the crime doesn't mean that the risk-enhancing action didn't take place or that the action wasn't inadvisable. We all laughed at that guy on the Daily Show who had his thousand-dollar gun collection stolen from next to the safe and other valuables from the top of the radiator, but that doesn't mean that whoever took the stuff isn't a thief.
I'm sure the person responsible for this little debacle is going to make the same arguments as you when his higher-up fire him for incompetence, and the people he appeals to are going to laugh in his face.