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[BIOSHOCK INFINITE] Experience digital jingoism March 26th.

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Posts

  • CaptainNemoCaptainNemo Ascension. Ascension. Hallelujah. Registered User regular
    ENDING SPOILERS
    AH YES HONEY
    So the Archangel was the elderly Elizabeth, yes?

    PSN:CaptainNemo1138
  • VeganVegan Registered User regular
    Sarksus wrote: »
    MrDelish wrote: »
    this blew my mind when I watched my roommate die a few times (WARNING ENDING SPOILERS):
    sometimes when you die you come back through your "office" door. I never saw this as I died only once in the game, but my interpretation of it is that each time you die a new Booker is plucked from his universe and does everything you've done up to the point where you died.

    that's why the Luteces have so many chalk marks on their sign at the beginning; many previous Booker attempts failed and they're still trying
    I guess there's no reason for them to ask people besides Booker to pick heads or tails so those marks had to come from somewhere. Shiiiiiiiiit.
    Yeah, this sheds new light on the resurrection mechanic. The coin flip scene is your first direct encounter with the twins, so I had assumed that those two weirdos were just walking around polling everyone on the street on the coin flip. It's early in the game, and you're in a weird place, so you have no reason to assume that they're only experimenting with Bookers.

    steam_sig.png
    MuddBudd
  • Two Headed BoyTwo Headed Boy Registered User regular
    Vegan wrote: »
    Sarksus wrote: »
    MrDelish wrote: »
    this blew my mind when I watched my roommate die a few times (WARNING ENDING SPOILERS):
    sometimes when you die you come back through your "office" door. I never saw this as I died only once in the game, but my interpretation of it is that each time you die a new Booker is plucked from his universe and does everything you've done up to the point where you died.

    that's why the Luteces have so many chalk marks on their sign at the beginning; many previous Booker attempts failed and they're still trying
    I guess there's no reason for them to ask people besides Booker to pick heads or tails so those marks had to come from somewhere. Shiiiiiiiiit.
    Yeah, this sheds new light on the resurrection mechanic. The coin flip scene is your first direct encounter with the twins, so I had assumed that those two weirdos were just walking around polling everyone on the street on the coin flip. It's early in the game, and you're in a weird place, so you have no reason to assume that they're only experimenting with Bookers.

    Well, that's not entirely true.
    They row you in on the boat.

    4hNKbHH.png
    Twitter 3DS: 0860 - 3257 - 2516
  • MrDelishMrDelish Registered User regular
    Vegan wrote: »
    Sarksus wrote: »
    MrDelish wrote: »
    this blew my mind when I watched my roommate die a few times (WARNING ENDING SPOILERS):
    sometimes when you die you come back through your "office" door. I never saw this as I died only once in the game, but my interpretation of it is that each time you die a new Booker is plucked from his universe and does everything you've done up to the point where you died.

    that's why the Luteces have so many chalk marks on their sign at the beginning; many previous Booker attempts failed and they're still trying
    I guess there's no reason for them to ask people besides Booker to pick heads or tails so those marks had to come from somewhere. Shiiiiiiiiit.
    Yeah, this sheds new light on the resurrection mechanic. The coin flip scene is your first direct encounter with the twins, so I had assumed that those two weirdos were just walking around polling everyone on the street on the coin flip. It's early in the game, and you're in a weird place, so you have no reason to assume that they're only experimenting with Bookers.

    Well, that's not entirely true.
    They row you in on the boat.
    You know, I didn't notice that until the end game flashback. That made it even better, though, and watching the intro again just completely blows my mind.

  • VeganVegan Registered User regular
    edited March 2013
    Vegan wrote: »
    Sarksus wrote: »
    MrDelish wrote: »
    this blew my mind when I watched my roommate die a few times (WARNING ENDING SPOILERS):
    sometimes when you die you come back through your "office" door. I never saw this as I died only once in the game, but my interpretation of it is that each time you die a new Booker is plucked from his universe and does everything you've done up to the point where you died.

    that's why the Luteces have so many chalk marks on their sign at the beginning; many previous Booker attempts failed and they're still trying
    I guess there's no reason for them to ask people besides Booker to pick heads or tails so those marks had to come from somewhere. Shiiiiiiiiit.
    Yeah, this sheds new light on the resurrection mechanic. The coin flip scene is your first direct encounter with the twins, so I had assumed that those two weirdos were just walking around polling everyone on the street on the coin flip. It's early in the game, and you're in a weird place, so you have no reason to assume that they're only experimenting with Bookers.

    Well, that's not entirely true.
    They row you in on the boat.
    Your first direct encounter with the twins. Meaning, as far as the first-time player knows at that point, the coin flip is the first time they are introduced to you. Unless you're REALLY good at remembering voices.

    Vegan on
    steam_sig.png
  • SuperRuperSuperRuper Registered User regular
    edited March 2013
    Vegan wrote: »
    Sarksus wrote: »
    MrDelish wrote: »
    this blew my mind when I watched my roommate die a few times (WARNING ENDING SPOILERS):
    sometimes when you die you come back through your "office" door. I never saw this as I died only once in the game, but my interpretation of it is that each time you die a new Booker is plucked from his universe and does everything you've done up to the point where you died.

    that's why the Luteces have so many chalk marks on their sign at the beginning; many previous Booker attempts failed and they're still trying
    I guess there's no reason for them to ask people besides Booker to pick heads or tails so those marks had to come from somewhere. Shiiiiiiiiit.
    Yeah, this sheds new light on the resurrection mechanic. The coin flip scene is your first direct encounter with the twins, so I had assumed that those two weirdos were just walking around polling everyone on the street on the coin flip. It's early in the game, and you're in a weird place, so you have no reason to assume that they're only experimenting with Bookers.

    Well, that's not entirely true.
    They row you in on the boat.
    Nope. That was just your brain compensating for being pulled out of another dimension. You're creating those memories.

    ...Bioshock... :P

    SuperRuper on
    Fists of Dissent
  • Two Headed BoyTwo Headed Boy Registered User regular
    Vegan wrote: »
    Vegan wrote: »
    Sarksus wrote: »
    MrDelish wrote: »
    this blew my mind when I watched my roommate die a few times (WARNING ENDING SPOILERS):
    sometimes when you die you come back through your "office" door. I never saw this as I died only once in the game, but my interpretation of it is that each time you die a new Booker is plucked from his universe and does everything you've done up to the point where you died.

    that's why the Luteces have so many chalk marks on their sign at the beginning; many previous Booker attempts failed and they're still trying
    I guess there's no reason for them to ask people besides Booker to pick heads or tails so those marks had to come from somewhere. Shiiiiiiiiit.
    Yeah, this sheds new light on the resurrection mechanic. The coin flip scene is your first direct encounter with the twins, so I had assumed that those two weirdos were just walking around polling everyone on the street on the coin flip. It's early in the game, and you're in a weird place, so you have no reason to assume that they're only experimenting with Bookers.

    Well, that's not entirely true.
    They row you in on the boat.
    Your first direct encounter with the twins. Meaning, as far as the first-time player knows at that point, the coin flip is the first time they are introduced to you.
    I recognized their voices immediately.

    4hNKbHH.png
    Twitter 3DS: 0860 - 3257 - 2516
    shoeboxjeddy
  • CaptainNemoCaptainNemo Ascension. Ascension. Hallelujah. Registered User regular
    Elizabeth's choker has an interesting pattern.
    Its connected infinity symbols inside of conected circles.

    PSN:CaptainNemo1138
  • Bobkins FlymoBobkins Flymo Finally, the rock is mine. Registered User, Moderator mod
    Viskod wrote: »
    If this isn't the last Bioshock, I wonder where they'll put the next city. I mean, underground? or in space?
    You are fighting crazed producers and actors in a dilapidated B-Movie studio.

    Bioschlock

    McdriQR.png
  • SarksusSarksus Registered User regular
    In India

    Bollyshock.

    MrDelishFists of Dissentshoeboxjeddy
  • Bobkins FlymoBobkins Flymo Finally, the rock is mine. Registered User, Moderator mod
    You are a popular musician that can shoot bees from your hands.

    Biorock

    McdriQR.png
    CantidoKoopahTroopah
  • MuddBuddMuddBudd Registered User regular
    Vegan wrote: »
    Sarksus wrote: »
    MrDelish wrote: »
    this blew my mind when I watched my roommate die a few times (WARNING ENDING SPOILERS):
    sometimes when you die you come back through your "office" door. I never saw this as I died only once in the game, but my interpretation of it is that each time you die a new Booker is plucked from his universe and does everything you've done up to the point where you died.

    that's why the Luteces have so many chalk marks on their sign at the beginning; many previous Booker attempts failed and they're still trying
    I guess there's no reason for them to ask people besides Booker to pick heads or tails so those marks had to come from somewhere. Shiiiiiiiiit.
    Yeah, this sheds new light on the resurrection mechanic. The coin flip scene is your first direct encounter with the twins, so I had assumed that those two weirdos were just walking around polling everyone on the street on the coin flip. It's early in the game, and you're in a weird place, so you have no reason to assume that they're only experimenting with Bookers.

    Oh I hadn't thought of that...
    that explains the office door Resurrections.

    Project G.I.F.T.B.O.M.B. is completed
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  • Jubal77Jubal77 Registered User regular
    You are a neck beard having computer programmer that gets pulled into the computer for wacky light bycycle adventures.

    Biotron.

    steam_sig.png
  • Stabbity StyleStabbity Style Walla Walla, WARegistered User regular
    You're fighting your way through the seedy underbelly of the Chinese food industry.

    Biowok

    AxMEM8u.png
    Steam: stabbitystyle | XBL: S For Stabbity | MWO: stabbitystyle | Twitch: stabbitystyle
    KoopahTroopah
  • CantidoCantido Registered User regular
    edited March 2013
    Caedere wrote: »
    SuperRuper wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Krathoon wrote: »
    SuperRuper wrote: »
    SuperRuper wrote: »
    On Booker's age:
    I thought the Letuece's took Booker right after he gave up Anna. Robert said something about his brain trying to create memories where none exist when they brought him to 1912 (he also says "I should know, I lived through it. Further confirming he was ripped from another universe.) Booker is about 20. Comstock around 30, but aged advanced because of the dimensional travel. Booker is only 16 during Wounded Knee, because around that time it probably wouldn't be uncommon for someone that age to fight in the military. I don't have a problem believing the Booker we played was around 20.
    I think Booker is actually the same age as Comstock. Elizabeth even says it in the end, that Booker spent 20 years filled with regret and alcohol in that room.

    So that's what she said! I couldn't quite hear her when she said that line. Ok well that makes sense too.

    ENDING SPOILER
    Eh. Comstock is elderly. He was probably 20 older than Booker when he picked Anna up. That would have given him time to setup the city. Then another 20 years pass before Booker shows up at the city.
    Comstock takes Anna from a younger Booker. Booker isn't exactly young, but he isn't nearly as old as Comstock.
    I thought technically they're the same age. The way I understand it:

    Booker A (our Booker) is born 1874. Wounded Knee 1890. (Baptism event happens here). Anna is born 1893ish. 20 years in despair. Letuece Twins come get Booker 1912.

    Booker B (Comstock) is born 1874. Wounded Knee 1890. (Booker becomes Comstock). Columbia is founded. Comstock steals buys Anna from Booker A to continue his bloodline, (The lamb is born unto the prophet)1893. Locks her in a tower because of her powers for 20 years. The Leteuce Twins get killed and grab Booker A. Booker A arrives in 1912.

    You pretty much nailed it exactly.

    Hrmm.

    ENDING STUFF DO NOT CLICK LAWL
    I'm pretty sure both timelines produced an unnamed ex-wife and sold-Anna. I went up to the elevator where Comstock and DeWitt speak for the first time and Comstock calls out the player on Anna as the final terrible act to which DeWitt sought to get baptized over. Since the split happens at the baptism, the unknown wife and Anna happened first.

    Oh, and I finally found the chest to that Crow Klux Klan key. That was bullshit.

    Cantido on
    3DS Friendcode 5413-1311-3767
  • MuddBuddMuddBudd Registered User regular
    You're fighting your way through the seedy underbelly of the Chinese food industry.

    Biowok

    Fight your way through the planet Vulcan in an attempt to save the federation.

    BioSpock

    Project G.I.F.T.B.O.M.B. is completed
    steam_sig.png
    Kid PresentableKoopahTroopahshoeboxjeddy
  • mere_immortalmere_immortal So tasty!Registered User regular
    edited March 2013
    The city is actually a dying computer and you are trying to start it back up.

    Biosshock.

    mere_immortal on
    Steam: Dr. Mark Sloan - PSN: mere_immortal - XBL: lego pencil - Wii U: mimmortal - 3DS: 0748-1545-6684 - Bordgamegeek: mere_immortal
    Kid PresentableCantidosgt rob
  • KanaKana Registered User regular
    You're shrunk and transported inside a human stomach

    bileshock

    History is an account, mostly false, of events, mostly unimportant, which are brought about by rulers, mostly knaves, and soldiers, mostly fools.
    Kid Presentable
  • firewaterwordfirewaterword Tighter than R. Kelly in his teens. Registered User regular
    ENDING SPOILERS
    AH YES HONEY
    So the Archangel was the elderly Elizabeth, yes?

    I'd put my money on that.

    Cantido
  • MrDelishMrDelish Registered User regular
    ENDING SPOILERS
    AH YES HONEY
    So the Archangel was the elderly Elizabeth, yes?

    I'd put my money on that.
    why would she tell Comstock anything? My bet was that anything truthful Comstock "prophesied" was from tears and everything else was purely his own nonsense

  • David_TDavid_T Occasionally wears a hat Copenhagen, DenmarkRegistered User regular
    edited March 2013
    Kambing wrote: »
    Occurs Before
    Then likely DeWitt marries his wife in the intervening 3 years. She dies during childbirth which furthers his depression. Comstock finds religion and then goes on to found Columbia and be a dick.

    This all seems good. Except if Booker is drowned at baptism then the events afterwards, i.e., the post-credits ending could not possibly occur.

    This doesn't adhere to the wish for simple explanations, but here goes.
    The post-credits ending is something outside those timelines alltogether. It occurs because Booker, not Comstock, was baptised by Elizabeth and all his sins washed away. It's a Good Ending.

    Edit: Noone saw that...

    David_T on
    steam_sig.png
    KoopahTroopah
  • AkilaeAkilae Registered User regular
    Just finished the game.

    Hmm.. huh... okay, let me think about it for a while.

    In the meantime, this game scores major points with me for gratuitous use of Mozart's Requiem Mass.

    KoopahTroopah
  • htmhtm Registered User regular
    So I finished this last night, and it was pretty OK, but...

    Meta-ish spoilers:
    The plot was a really clever twisty time travel/multi-universe brainer teaser.
    The setting was a super-detailed satire of the American flavors of nationalism, racism, religion, and conservatism.

    But... where did these two things ever really intersect? Both could have existed without the other. I think the first BioShock was much more cohesively constructed. The setting drove the plot. In Infinite, the plot is just something that happens in the setting and could have happened in any setting. The two sentence meta-summation is pretty much: "Here's a really nifty scifi story! Also, the USA sucks, laugh at her foibles!" It's not clear to me how those two things are related, or why they were put together in the same game.

    "You can't imagine how many shades of black there are. And white." – Fake Steve Jobs
  • AspectVoidAspectVoid Registered User regular
    I just beat the game. I don't think I've played a better game in the last two years, never mind just this year. Everything about it was great. And the ending? It moved me so much, I do not think I'll be able to play the game again any time soon. Just incredible all around.

    PSN|AspectVoid
    Kid Presentablefirewaterword
  • CaptainNemoCaptainNemo Ascension. Ascension. Hallelujah. Registered User regular
    MrDelish wrote: »
    ENDING SPOILERS
    AH YES HONEY
    So the Archangel was the elderly Elizabeth, yes?

    I'd put my money on that.
    why would she tell Comstock anything? My bet was that anything truthful Comstock "prophesied" was from tears and everything else was purely his own nonsense
    She was brainwashed and crazy thanks to Comstock House, remember?

    PSN:CaptainNemo1138
  • MrDelishMrDelish Registered User regular
    MrDelish wrote: »
    ENDING SPOILERS
    AH YES HONEY
    So the Archangel was the elderly Elizabeth, yes?

    I'd put my money on that.
    why would she tell Comstock anything? My bet was that anything truthful Comstock "prophesied" was from tears and everything else was purely his own nonsense
    She was brainwashed and crazy thanks to Comstock House, remember?

    whoops

  • CantidoCantido Registered User regular
    This is the best one, hands down.

    3DS Friendcode 5413-1311-3767
  • Death of RatsDeath of Rats Registered User regular
    htm wrote: »
    So I finished this last night, and it was pretty OK, but...

    Meta-ish spoilers:
    The plot was a really clever twisty time travel/multi-universe brainer teaser.
    The setting was a super-detailed satire of the American flavors of nationalism, racism, religion, and conservatism.

    But... where did these two things ever really intersect? Both could have existed without the other. I think the first BioShock was much more cohesively constructed. The setting drove the plot. In Infinite, the plot is just something that happens in the setting and could have happened in any setting. The two sentence meta-summation is pretty much: "Here's a really nifty scifi story! Also, the USA sucks, laugh at her foibles!" It's not clear to me how those two things are related, or why they were put together in the same game.

    Reposting because I think this quote tree does a pretty good job of explaining why the setting is completely tied into the story:
    Whole game spoilers re: religion because I too would like to masturbate about the themes in the ending

    a lot of people were talking about how even though comstock is ostensibly a fundamentalist Christian, there are very few if any references to Christ.

    I think this is a very deliberate choice because in many ways Comstock is NOT a Christian. He shows no desire to be loving, forgiving, compassionate, or generous. He was so racked with guilt over what happened at wounded knee that he turned to god for forgiveness. Christianity is a religion that teaches that no one is so wretched that they cannot be saved by God's grace, but a core component of being a Christian is devoting your life toward being an ultimately loving and compassionate person, a task so difficult as to be impossible, but the beauty is in the attempt.

    Comstock makes no such attempt. Instead of admitting that he is a sinner, a fundamental part of converting to Christianity, he rationalizes all of the atrocities he's committed as the will of god, and goes on to commit even further atrocities in god's name. I don't remember him ever quoting Scripture from the New Testament, he sticks solely to the fire and brimstone stuff of the Old Testament. He has hijacked the imagery from Christianity and cherry-picked phrases from the bible to suit his own ends. He even goes so far as to create idolatry of founding fathers, create a goddess like personification of Columbia, and refer to his daughter with the same term used to refer to the child of God, violating one of the Ten Commandments. He considers himself more Christian than Christ in the same way that he considers himself more American than America.

    And the thing is, Comstock isn't an unfamiliar character. American politics are filled with people who have twisted a religion based on love to justify hatred. He's a 1912 version of 2013's worst conservatives.

    Christianity is supposed to be a religion of love, and of sacrifice. You deny all of the fleeting, minuscule pleasures of sin, and devote your life to charity and goodwill. Converting is being born again, with a new lease on life, free from the sins that you've eschewed, free to be the good person that you've always been able to be.

    In the end, Booker accepts his sins. He doesn't run from them or justify them as he has in alternate realities. He admits that he is a sinner, that his soul is so tainted with evil that he deserves complete oblivion.

    And in exchange for that one beautiful moment of absolute humility, he's born again. He wakes up in the detective office with Anna in her crib. He's free to be the good person he's always been able to be. He's wiped away the debt.

    The game begins and ends with literal baptisms because the entire game is a metaphorical baptism.

    As some one who considers himself a Christian who constantly feels more and more angry with the way politicians in America try to exploit the religion to their own ends I found this component of the story to be incredibly powerful. Like when was the last time you saw a work with a pro-Christian message that wasn't either condescending or just dumb.

    Definitely agree.
    In a way, Booker makes the correct choice at the point of baptism. He isn't ready to ask for forgiveness, he's looking for a way out. And when he runs from that, he takes responsibility for his actions and who he is in a way Comstock doesn't. He lives with his sins. And in a way, Columbia is a perfect place for him to realize he does need to ask for forgiveness. It represents everything he was up until the point of baptism. He is quite frankly fighting against who he was.

    Some people are saying that the themes of the game seem disconnected, that Columbia as a setting wasn't important to the ending, but I think the whole thing is brilliantly written and tied up. Booker's past sins are completely represented in Columbia. His fight through Columbia is his come to terms with his past. It shows him exactly who he was, who he could have been without that guilt, and why exactly he shouldn't be. When he realizes Elizabeth is Anna, he starts to accept his actions, to stop rationalizing them. And when the Elizabeths drown him, he doesn't fight back. He accepts his fate.

    The game is about racism, nationalism, faith and forgiveness, and all of these themes aren't tied to Columbia, they're tied to Booker. Columbia is only a reflection of him.

    I design stuff. For people. Who want me to. Even here! Just PM me.
    CaptainNemo
  • Stabbity StyleStabbity Style Walla Walla, WARegistered User regular
    I disagree:

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    KoopahTroopah
  • mere_immortalmere_immortal So tasty!Registered User regular
    Cantido wrote: »
    This is the best one, hands down.

    I really like this one.

    Steam: Dr. Mark Sloan - PSN: mere_immortal - XBL: lego pencil - Wii U: mimmortal - 3DS: 0748-1545-6684 - Bordgamegeek: mere_immortal
    KoopahTroopah
  • KanaKana Registered User regular
    That one's my favorite, just because it's pretty subtle with all the other noise on the beach you're not quite sure if you're right, and it just sort of weirds you out

    History is an account, mostly false, of events, mostly unimportant, which are brought about by rulers, mostly knaves, and soldiers, mostly fools.
  • mere_immortalmere_immortal So tasty!Registered User regular
    Kana wrote: »
    That one's my favorite, just because it's pretty subtle with all the other noise on the beach you're not quite sure if you're right, and it just sort of weirds you out

    Yeah exactly.
    I listened to it for a few seconds and was all I'm sure that's Cyndi Lauper, something is not right about this city but it's AWESOME

    Steam: Dr. Mark Sloan - PSN: mere_immortal - XBL: lego pencil - Wii U: mimmortal - 3DS: 0748-1545-6684 - Bordgamegeek: mere_immortal
    Krathoon
  • FencingsaxFencingsax Who lives Who dies Who Guacamoles? Registered User regular
    I disagree:


    Seriously, the fact that this version was done for the 2010 demo amazes me now.

    It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it
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  • htmhtm Registered User regular
    edited March 2013
    I guess I can understand this, in the abstract sense:
    In a way, Booker makes the correct choice at the point of baptism. He isn't ready to ask for forgiveness, he's looking for a way out. And when he runs from that, he takes responsibility for his actions and who he is in a way Comstock doesn't. He lives with his sins. And in a way, Columbia is a perfect place for him to realize he does need to ask for forgiveness. It represents everything he was up until the point of baptism. He is quite frankly fighting against who he was.

    Some people are saying that the themes of the game seem disconnected, that Columbia as a setting wasn't important to the ending, but I think the whole thing is brilliantly written and tied up. Booker's past sins are completely represented in Columbia. His fight through Columbia is his come to terms with his past. It shows him exactly who he was, who he could have been without that guilt, and why exactly he shouldn't be. When he realizes Elizabeth is Anna, he starts to accept his actions, to stop rationalizing them. And when the Elizabeths drown him, he doesn't fight back. He accepts his fate.

    The game is about racism, nationalism, faith and forgiveness, and all of these themes aren't tied to Columbia, they're tied to Booker. Columbia is only a reflection of him.

    but...
    While all the pieces for that sort of thematic unification of plot and setting exist in the game, I don't think the game succeeds in sewing them together.

    Columbia is not the reflection of the Booker that the player starts with. Booker mostly comes across as a cynical but reasonable guy with a murky past who's trying to get his creditors off his back. At the start, he's not anything but mercenary, and he actually seems pretty disdainful of Columbia and its "virtues". Nothing about him during the time that the player forms an impression of his character indicates that he's ever been racist, nationalistic, religious, or in any special need of forgiveness. All those things get filled in with time, but based on the way the game starts out, it's hard to shake the picture of Booker as anything more than a normal guy who ran up some gambling debts, went to Columbia to get out from under them, and then had a bunch of really weird shit happen to him.

    Columbia can only be seen as a reflection of Booker through info-dumps and indirect clues, not through actual characterization. Booker as the player experiences him just isn't that kind of bastard.

    htm on
    "You can't imagine how many shades of black there are. And white." – Fake Steve Jobs
  • CaptainNemoCaptainNemo Ascension. Ascension. Hallelujah. Registered User regular
    htm wrote: »
    So I finished this last night, and it was pretty OK, but...

    Meta-ish spoilers:
    The plot was a really clever twisty time travel/multi-universe brainer teaser.
    The setting was a super-detailed satire of the American flavors of nationalism, racism, religion, and conservatism.

    But... where did these two things ever really intersect? Both could have existed without the other. I think the first BioShock was much more cohesively constructed. The setting drove the plot. In Infinite, the plot is just something that happens in the setting and could have happened in any setting. The two sentence meta-summation is pretty much: "Here's a really nifty scifi story! Also, the USA sucks, laugh at her foibles!" It's not clear to me how those two things are related, or why they were put together in the same game.

    Reposting because I think this quote tree does a pretty good job of explaining why the setting is completely tied into the story:
    Whole game spoilers re: religion because I too would like to masturbate about the themes in the ending

    a lot of people were talking about how even though comstock is ostensibly a fundamentalist Christian, there are very few if any references to Christ.

    I think this is a very deliberate choice because in many ways Comstock is NOT a Christian. He shows no desire to be loving, forgiving, compassionate, or generous. He was so racked with guilt over what happened at wounded knee that he turned to god for forgiveness. Christianity is a religion that teaches that no one is so wretched that they cannot be saved by God's grace, but a core component of being a Christian is devoting your life toward being an ultimately loving and compassionate person, a task so difficult as to be impossible, but the beauty is in the attempt.

    Comstock makes no such attempt. Instead of admitting that he is a sinner, a fundamental part of converting to Christianity, he rationalizes all of the atrocities he's committed as the will of god, and goes on to commit even further atrocities in god's name. I don't remember him ever quoting Scripture from the New Testament, he sticks solely to the fire and brimstone stuff of the Old Testament. He has hijacked the imagery from Christianity and cherry-picked phrases from the bible to suit his own ends. He even goes so far as to create idolatry of founding fathers, create a goddess like personification of Columbia, and refer to his daughter with the same term used to refer to the child of God, violating one of the Ten Commandments. He considers himself more Christian than Christ in the same way that he considers himself more American than America.

    And the thing is, Comstock isn't an unfamiliar character. American politics are filled with people who have twisted a religion based on love to justify hatred. He's a 1912 version of 2013's worst conservatives.

    Christianity is supposed to be a religion of love, and of sacrifice. You deny all of the fleeting, minuscule pleasures of sin, and devote your life to charity and goodwill. Converting is being born again, with a new lease on life, free from the sins that you've eschewed, free to be the good person that you've always been able to be.

    In the end, Booker accepts his sins. He doesn't run from them or justify them as he has in alternate realities. He admits that he is a sinner, that his soul is so tainted with evil that he deserves complete oblivion.

    And in exchange for that one beautiful moment of absolute humility, he's born again. He wakes up in the detective office with Anna in her crib. He's free to be the good person he's always been able to be. He's wiped away the debt.

    The game begins and ends with literal baptisms because the entire game is a metaphorical baptism.

    As some one who considers himself a Christian who constantly feels more and more angry with the way politicians in America try to exploit the religion to their own ends I found this component of the story to be incredibly powerful. Like when was the last time you saw a work with a pro-Christian message that wasn't either condescending or just dumb.

    Definitely agree.
    In a way, Booker makes the correct choice at the point of baptism. He isn't ready to ask for forgiveness, he's looking for a way out. And when he runs from that, he takes responsibility for his actions and who he is in a way Comstock doesn't. He lives with his sins. And in a way, Columbia is a perfect place for him to realize he does need to ask for forgiveness. It represents everything he was up until the point of baptism. He is quite frankly fighting against who he was.

    Some people are saying that the themes of the game seem disconnected, that Columbia as a setting wasn't important to the ending, but I think the whole thing is brilliantly written and tied up. Booker's past sins are completely represented in Columbia. His fight through Columbia is his come to terms with his past. It shows him exactly who he was, who he could have been without that guilt, and why exactly he shouldn't be. When he realizes Elizabeth is Anna, he starts to accept his actions, to stop rationalizing them. And when the Elizabeths drown him, he doesn't fight back. He accepts his fate.

    The game is about racism, nationalism, faith and forgiveness, and all of these themes aren't tied to Columbia, they're tied to Booker. Columbia is only a reflection of him.
    Columbia is all the more horrifying when you realize that its your doing. This is your greatest triumph and most horrendous sin.

    In gunplay terms, the Vox guns are a lot better then most people give them credit for. The Vox Shotgun is absolutley devestating.

    PSN:CaptainNemo1138
  • Death of RatsDeath of Rats Registered User regular
    htm wrote: »
    I guess I can understand this, in the abstract sense:
    In a way, Booker makes the correct choice at the point of baptism. He isn't ready to ask for forgiveness, he's looking for a way out. And when he runs from that, he takes responsibility for his actions and who he is in a way Comstock doesn't. He lives with his sins. And in a way, Columbia is a perfect place for him to realize he does need to ask for forgiveness. It represents everything he was up until the point of baptism. He is quite frankly fighting against who he was.

    Some people are saying that the themes of the game seem disconnected, that Columbia as a setting wasn't important to the ending, but I think the whole thing is brilliantly written and tied up. Booker's past sins are completely represented in Columbia. His fight through Columbia is his come to terms with his past. It shows him exactly who he was, who he could have been without that guilt, and why exactly he shouldn't be. When he realizes Elizabeth is Anna, he starts to accept his actions, to stop rationalizing them. And when the Elizabeths drown him, he doesn't fight back. He accepts his fate.

    The game is about racism, nationalism, faith and forgiveness, and all of these themes aren't tied to Columbia, they're tied to Booker. Columbia is only a reflection of him.

    but...
    While all the pieces for that sort of thematic unification of plot and setting exist in the game, I don't think the game succeeds in sewing them together.

    Columbia is not the reflection of the Booker that the player starts with. Booker mostly comes across as a cynical but reasonable guy with a murky past who's trying to get his creditors off his back. At the start, he's not anything but mercenary, and he actually seems pretty disdainful of Columbia and its "virtues". Nothing about him during the time that the player forms an impression of his character indicates that he's ever been racist, nationalistic, religious, or in any special need of forgiveness. All those things get filled in with time, but based on the way the game starts out, it's hard to shake the picture of Booker as anything more than a normal guy who ran up some gambling debts, went to Columbia to get out from under them, and then had a bunch of really weird shit happen to him.

    Columbia can only be seen as a reflection of Booker through info-dumps and indirect clues, not through actual characterization. Booker as the player experiences him just isn't that kind of bastard.
    I think being involved in Wounded Knee and being a Pinkerton pretty much say exactly what type of mercenary he really is. Wounded Knee is one of the first things you hear about in the game. While how involved he actually is in the battle isn't shown until later in the game, just being involved is a pretty damning place to start with.

    You're basically handwaving away this characterization throughout the game by saying the points where they characterize him this way don't count. Which is like saying Luke doesn't use a lightsaber besides in the scenes where he does.

    When the whole game really boils down to a character study, all points for the character, not just at the very very beginning of the story, are important and relevant to tying the themes together.

    I design stuff. For people. Who want me to. Even here! Just PM me.
    Kid PresentableSuperRuperAlazull
  • MrDelishMrDelish Registered User regular
    MrDelish wrote: »
    ENDING SPOILERS
    AH YES HONEY
    So the Archangel was the elderly Elizabeth, yes?

    I'd put my money on that.
    why would she tell Comstock anything? My bet was that anything truthful Comstock "prophesied" was from tears and everything else was purely his own nonsense
    She was brainwashed and crazy thanks to Comstock House, remember?

    oh my gosh, another epiphany (MORE ENDING SPOILERS):
    Elizabeth visited Comstock to inspire him to make Columbia, and Comstock groomed Elizabeth to not only "destroy the Sodom below" but visit him via tear when she's old.

  • kedinikkedinik Genjamin Franklin Registered User regular
    edited March 2013
    I played the first hour of the game, slept on it, rolled out of bed and predicted the core of the ending to my wife.
    The intro text really gives it away in conjunction with "Give us the girl and wipe away the debt."

    And I had to figure that the Doctor Manhattan-sold-as-a-child Elizabeth/Anna would nullify him at that point.

    Though I didn't figure DeWitt was Comstock, which made everything more powerful. Well done.

    kedinik on
  • CaptainNemoCaptainNemo Ascension. Ascension. Hallelujah. Registered User regular
    MrDelish wrote: »
    MrDelish wrote: »
    ENDING SPOILERS
    AH YES HONEY
    So the Archangel was the elderly Elizabeth, yes?

    I'd put my money on that.
    why would she tell Comstock anything? My bet was that anything truthful Comstock "prophesied" was from tears and everything else was purely his own nonsense
    She was brainwashed and crazy thanks to Comstock House, remember?

    oh my gosh, another epiphany (MORE ENDING SPOILERS):
    Elizabeth visited Comstock to inspire him to make Columbia, and Comstock groomed Elizabeth to not only "destroy the Sodom below" but visit him via tear when she's old.
    Oh god my brain.

    Dis game.

    Dis fucken game

    PSN:CaptainNemo1138
  • Kid PresentableKid Presentable Registered User regular
    edited March 2013
    MrDelish wrote: »
    MrDelish wrote: »
    ENDING SPOILERS
    AH YES HONEY
    So the Archangel was the elderly Elizabeth, yes?

    I'd put my money on that.
    why would she tell Comstock anything? My bet was that anything truthful Comstock "prophesied" was from tears and everything else was purely his own nonsense
    She was brainwashed and crazy thanks to Comstock House, remember?

    oh my gosh, another epiphany (MORE ENDING SPOILERS):
    Elizabeth visited Comstock to inspire him to make Columbia, and Comstock groomed Elizabeth to not only "destroy the Sodom below" but visit him via tear when she's old.

    Ending stuff.
    I'm not disagreeing with you, but where are you getting that Elizabeth visited Comstock? Are you theorizing that Future Bad Elizabeth is the arch-angel that Comstock refers to when he talks about the origin of some of his prophecies? Its not a bad theory but I'm just curious if there's supporting material for it in-game.

    Kid Presentable on
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