So, is it ever the fault of the organization when it's members do something terrible, or can it always be brushed aside as the actions of "a few corrupt people?"
If it's Islam, yes. Otherwise, it's a case-by-case issue.
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KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
edited August 2010
Yeah, Enron knew bad shit was going on and allowed it to keep happening so they could preserve/enrich themselves. So does the Catholic Church.
And hey, it's not just child rape! You can be a goddamn bomb-chucking multiple-murdering terrorist and the church will still get your back!
Door-step proseletizers are insulting me big time, because they imply I didn't think about the universe and existence since I could think. I still remember the first time I thought about death and the end of the universe at 7 or so, and ever since then my personal thoughts in that regard have brought me peace of mind and tranquility.
So if you're at my doorstep and implying that this thousands of years old book made by people with no more information than myself is in some way the only right way and that I should totally ignore my own thoughts on the matter because this book is so awesome man, no need to think, it's all right here!
You can go watch me put on my finest porn.
Edit: It all goes back to the fact that belief or non-belief should stay a personal matter you don't push on anyone, not only because it's decent, but also because it's the only way it's sincere
autono-wally, erotibot300 on
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Zilla36021st Century. |She/Her|Trans* Woman In Aviators Firing A Bazooka. ⚛️Registered Userregular
It all goes back to the fact that belief or non-belief should stay a personal matter you don't push on anyone, not only because it's decent, but also because it's the only way it's sincere.
Absolutely. :^:
A couple of very polite Mormon girls (both in their mid-twenties) were at my doorstep this morning, just as I was walking out of the door (literally her finger was just on the communal intercom, about to press it).
I had a spare ten minutes so I decided to engage with them rather than ignore them (we mostly talked about open-minded versus 'militant' atheism) and they dished out a few pamphlets and said a prayer for me.
They're coming back next week... Any tips? The history and tenets of the LDS aren't my strong suite - this was actually the first time I'd spoken with a Mormon.
It all goes back to the fact that belief or non-belief should stay a personal matter you don't push on anyone, not only because it's decent, but also because it's the only way it's sincere.
Absolutely. :^:
A couple of very polite Mormon girls (both in their mid-twenties) were at my doorstep this morning, just as I was walking out of the door (literally her finger was just on the communal intercom, about to press it).
I had a spare ten minutes so I decided to engage with them rather than ignore them (we mostly talked about open-minded versus 'militant' atheism) and they dished out a few pamphlets and said a prayer for me.
They're coming back next week... Any tips? The history and tenets of the LDS aren't my strong suite - this was actually the first time I'd spoken with a Mormon.
Figure out if you want in next week or not. If you put it off too long and decide against it in the end you will be harassed more than you like.
It all goes back to the fact that belief or non-belief should stay a personal matter you don't push on anyone, not only because it's decent, but also because it's the only way it's sincere.
Absolutely. :^:
A couple of very polite Mormon girls (both in their mid-twenties) were at my doorstep this morning, just as I was walking out of the door (literally her finger was just on the communal intercom, about to press it).
I had a spare ten minutes so I decided to engage with them rather than ignore them (we mostly talked about open-minded versus 'militant' atheism) and they dished out a few pamphlets and said a prayer for me.
They're coming back next week... Any tips? The history and tenets of the LDS aren't my strong suite - this was actually the first time I'd spoken with a Mormon.
Figure out if you want in next week or not. If you put it off too long and decide against it in the end you will be harassed more than you like.
Ask them about the "Curse of Cain" doctrine and watch them splutter.
It all goes back to the fact that belief or non-belief should stay a personal matter you don't push on anyone, not only because it's decent, but also because it's the only way it's sincere.
Absolutely. :^:
A couple of very polite Mormon girls (both in their mid-twenties) were at my doorstep this morning, just as I was walking out of the door (literally her finger was just on the communal intercom, about to press it).
I had a spare ten minutes so I decided to engage with them rather than ignore them (we mostly talked about open-minded versus 'militant' atheism) and they dished out a few pamphlets and said a prayer for me.
They're coming back next week... Any tips? The history and tenets of the LDS aren't my strong suite - this was actually the first time I'd spoken with a Mormon.
Figure out if you want in next week or not. If you put it off too long and decide against it in the end you will be harassed more than you like.
Ask them about the "Curse of Cain" doctrine and watch them splutter.
Haha, yes, this.
Ask them about Kolob, too.
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Element BrianPeanut Butter ShillRegistered Userregular
Or maybe you don't know the first fucking thing about the LDS faith.
I thought this forum was all about separating the bad things in the faith and the bad people from the faith from the good people. Oh wait, that only applies to Muslims, gotta remember how this place works.
Mormons get excommunicated for not tithing. Therefore, they're giving money to a group that uses it to do horrible, hateful things. There are no good people in that faith.
.
I was going to read through the whole thread, but then i saw this.
Thanatos, you are absolutely right, the LDS does church horrible, HORRIBLE things with donations that it receives.
Thanatos, i whole heartedly disagree with you. I know many wonderful people in my church, and I try myself to do and act as charitable towards others as Jesus would.
You may dislike us for our beliefs, but generalizing an entire culture who has contributed billions of dollars and hours of man power to aid projects is a extremely selfish thing to say and only shows that you care less about how we help and more about one or two peculiar beliefs that seem weird to you. But of course, we are the ones who are horrible. If you are that hateful towards everyone you meet I feel VERY sorry for you.
KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
edited September 2010
Just because an organization does some good with its resources, it doesn't excuse the hateful and hate-filled things it does with those same resources.
Element BrianPeanut Butter ShillRegistered Userregular
edited September 2010
Besides Prop 8 funding (which was for the most part received through direct donations and not from the church as an entity) can you name one other thing?
Besides Prop 8 funding (which was for the most part received through direct donations and not from the church as an entity) can you name one other thing?
Does the takeover of the Boy Scouts of America to turn it into an institution that discriminates against gay and atheist children count?
Besides Prop 8 funding (which was for the most part received through direct donations and not from the church as an entity) can you name one other thing?
Well, on the same subject, how about the incredibly abusive camps the LDS (and other churchs, mind you) run to "force out gayness?
Just because an organization does some good with its resources, it doesn't excuse the hateful and hate-filled things it does with those same resources.
But the hateful things that it does completely override the good things.
LoserForHireX on
"The only way to get rid of a temptation is to give into it." - Oscar Wilde
"We believe in the people and their 'wisdom' as if there was some special secret entrance to knowledge that barred to anyone who had ever learned anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Mormons are getting involved with the Boy Scouts? That's a new one on me.
The LDS churchs has more sponsored scouting troops than any other religion, at the moment. Almost 10k packs, and those packs make up the largest single bloc of scouts. Methodists are a close second, and we all know how pushy methodists are about their ideals /sarcasm. Third is catholics with about 100k less members than the LDS church. The LDS also contribute a rather large amount of funding in similar proportion to the national organization. This means the organization has a tendency to bow to their wishes or of course the LDS will cut funding.
Things like if homosexuals are allowed as leaders then the church will pull its members and cut funding.
I really can't support the atheist thing as being the cause of the LDS because I don't know if that existed before the LDS got involved and I don't know of any LDS public statements in relation to the BSA about it. The homosexual one is pretty public, though.
Mormons are getting involved with the Boy Scouts? That's a new one on me.
There are Boy Scout troops that are supported by pretty much any religious group you could think of. I have no idea whether the LDS have an inordinate amount of influence in the Boy Scouts, though.
Modern Man on
Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
Rigorous Scholarship
Just because an organization does some good with its resources, it doesn't excuse the hateful and hate-filled things it does with those same resources.
But the hateful things that it does completely override the good things.
So, if I'm a really nice person, donate to charity, help out my neighbors, give food to the homeless, etc, but also tend to lynch gays, I'm not really a bad person, right?
edit: Unless those gay people are pedophiles in my family, then I just let them continue their actions until they actually get caught, then I shuffle them off to other areas using money that other people gave me.
Missionary work that is meant to help teach people a religion that is complete bullshit?
Missionary work that I did and through which I saw drug abusers and alcoholics change their lives and support their families. Yea, im such an asshole with my door knocking.
Here is the problem, see, most of you have no real experience with the church. You dont live within it like I do, and so you don't see the wonderful things that it does for everyone all throughout the world. Instead you focus in on one tiny appendage that you disagree with and then extrapolate that to cover the entire church and undo any good that we have done.
But it's ok, go ahead and call my religion evil, call me evil for loving someone enough to spend 2 years of my life sharing with others what saved my life. You guys are all obviously perfect and so have the right to decide whether or not I and the rest of my faith are really just evil bigots who hate everyone and never do anything good.
Just because an organization does some good with its resources, it doesn't excuse the hateful and hate-filled things it does with those same resources.
But the hateful things that it does completely override the good things.
So, if I'm a really nice person, donate to charity, help out my neighbors, give food to the homeless, etc, but also tend to lynch gays, I'm not really a bad person, right?
edit: Unless those gay people are pedophiles in my family, then I just let them continue their actions until they actually get caught, then I shuffle them off to other areas using money that other people gave me.
Yes, this is exactly what I was going for....
Strangely enough, I don't think that you can be a "nice person" and still lynch gays.
No organization has a spotless record. None. It's not just a problem with Churches, but also with governments (which for my money is the only kind of organization that should be compared to a religious institution). Are there any governments that have never done anything wrong or evil ever? No. Does that mean that they should all be dismantled and set on fire? No. They should change, certainly, just as the LDS should change (and has). It is true that changing religious institutions is slow and hard (hehe, hard), however, I'm not willing necessarily to throw the baby out with the bath water.
Also, it should be stated here, that I am not a member of any religious group. I was never in my life part of one (only member of my family to escape baptism), and have no plans on becoming a member. I am a committed athiest, and I think the word "agnostic" is stupid and meaningless. I however, am not hostile to religion necessarily. They do some fucked up things, and should stop, but I don't think that religion is something evil in itself. My mom is very religious, catholic, and would never defend the abuses her church (in the grand sense) commits. She's one of the nicest people in the world, and one of the most caring and loving folks that you will ever meet.
LoserForHireX on
"The only way to get rid of a temptation is to give into it." - Oscar Wilde
"We believe in the people and their 'wisdom' as if there was some special secret entrance to knowledge that barred to anyone who had ever learned anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
Does the takeover of the Boy Scouts of America to turn it into an institution that discriminates against gay and atheist children count?
The BSA was anti-gay and anti-atheist lonnnnnggggggg before anyone with the mormon faith took over.
Ehhh, no. Not true.
Prior to 1979, Rule 1 of the Scout Master's handbook stated, verbatim,:
"You do not instruct to undertake scouts in any formalized manner, in the subject of sex and family life. The reasons are is that it is not construed to be Scouting's proper area, and you are probably not well qualified to do this."
This was changed some years later when the CLDS garnered a largely disproportionate share of financial and administrative influence in the program.
Other big problems?
- The Boy Scouts accepts federal funding.
- The Boy Scouts has charters allowing them cost-free access to public institutions to use as meeting places.
- There's no strong legal precedent or authority that justifies the disallowal of gays into a non-sex-based, allegedly non-religious organization.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
But it's ok, go ahead and call my religion evil, call me evil for loving someone enough to spend 2 years of my life sharing with others what saved my life. You guys are all obviously perfect and so have the right to decide whether or not I and the rest of my faith are really just evil bigots who hate everyone and never do anything good.
Don't put words in the mouths of others, guy.
No one said that the LDS church never did anything good. But they are full of hateful bigots, though. You're the largest active religious block in America persecuting gays and lobbying for wide-sweeping social policy change that's on par with fascism.
If that's your thing, be proud of it. But don't piss on your feet and pretend its raining.
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Element BrianPeanut Butter ShillRegistered Userregular
edited September 2010
Have your read ANYTHING Thanatos has said in this thread guy?
But then again it's just Thanatos, so if he wishes that I die a horrrific painful death of cancer, then I guess I should just sit here and accept that shit right?
Missionary work that is meant to help teach people a religion that is complete bullshit?
Missionary work that I did and through which I saw drug abusers and alcoholics change their lives and support their families. Yea, im such an asshole with my door knocking.
Here is the problem, see, most of you have no real experience with the church. You dont live within it like I do, and so you don't see the wonderful things that it does for everyone all throughout the world. Instead you focus in on one tiny appendage that you disagree with and then extrapolate that to cover the entire church and undo any good that we have done.
But it's ok, go ahead and call my religion evil, call me evil for loving someone enough to spend 2 years of my life sharing with others what saved my life. You guys are all obviously perfect and so have the right to decide whether or not I and the rest of my faith are really just evil bigots who hate everyone and never do anything good.
Well, it's pretty rude to come knocking at my door and tell me that I need saving.
I don't thing you are a terrible person or anything, but it's a pretty obnoxious thing to do.
Plus we're a pretty anti religious group here, so you're going to have to excuse us for being a bit rude with our somewhat truthful and very hurtful remarks. It sucks being picked on but there you go. Persecution is a big part of religious life after all. Don't worry, at the end of the day non believers will get theirs, trapped with their unbaptized ancestors in a space jetliner waiting for a horrible death by volcano and being swallowed by a giant flying spaghetti monster.
Religion does some people a lot of good, and if it causes you to be a good person and you're happy with yourself, then by all means. Hell, nothing wrong with trying to convince other people to live good lives either. Just be aware that your definition of a good life might be slightly different then the person you are trying to help.
The foundation of door-to-door preaching is, essentially, "hi, you're wrong, we're right, if you don't agree you go to hell!"
That's never okay ever. Mormons just do it with an extra stripe of an especially recent series of crazy, ridiculous lies.
To give a bit of doubting benefit, it's generally more a misguided version of, "Oh, we should help these poor people who don't know the truth!"
The funny part being I'm far more assured in my agnosticism than most people are in their theism, yet I don't go door to door or proselytize, demonstrating with discernible logic and reason why religion is harmful in both a personal and geo-political context.
It is rude and insensitive for atheists and agnostics to exist.
That's what I don't get. Why does religion get the special treatment when it comes to poorly-founded philosophy? Take the Marxist, Objectivist, and Nihilist to task, but leave the hateful bigots who believe in magic alone?
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Apothe0sisHave you ever questioned the nature of your reality?Registered Userregular
edited September 2010
@Element Brian: You spent two years doing Mormon Missionary work instead of something actually useful and morally admirable? Forgive me for being wildly unimpressed. Even if we grant that your activities assisted a small number of people with substance abuse problems, then it's fairly clear that a concerted effort in this regard instead of proselytisation would have been of far greater utility. You wasted two years of your life, perhaps next life around you'll spend it more wisely.
---
In other news, Mormons are hugely disproportionately represented within the CIA and FBI. There are more members of the LDS church than any other faith group.
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Element BrianPeanut Butter ShillRegistered Userregular
Missionary work that is meant to help teach people a religion that is complete bullshit?
Missionary work that I did and through which I saw drug abusers and alcoholics change their lives and support their families. Yea, im such an asshole with my door knocking.
Here is the problem, see, most of you have no real experience with the church. You dont live within it like I do, and so you don't see the wonderful things that it does for everyone all throughout the world. Instead you focus in on one tiny appendage that you disagree with and then extrapolate that to cover the entire church and undo any good that we have done.
But it's ok, go ahead and call my religion evil, call me evil for loving someone enough to spend 2 years of my life sharing with others what saved my life. You guys are all obviously perfect and so have the right to decide whether or not I and the rest of my faith are really just evil bigots who hate everyone and never do anything good.
Well, it's pretty rude to come knocking at my door and tell me that I need saving.
I don't thing you are a terrible person or anything, but it's a pretty obnoxious thing to do.
Except thats not what we did. Never once did I tell someone that they were going to hell, in fact, we don't even believe in hell (atleast in the traditional sense that most of christianity does.) The majority of the time when we knocked on a door we would say something to the extent of, "Hi we're missionaries from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and we have a message about how the family can stay together after this life, can we share...etc"
I mean, really if you think that giving people hope that they can see their loved ones again really is an assholish thing to do, then fine, but dont pretend that we act or treat people like those morons in the westboro church or the guys in the op do. We don't do that, our church discourages against that heavily, and If I had done soemthing like that as a missionary I would have been disciplined and sent home. We share our message with love, not hate.
Missionary work that is meant to help teach people a religion that is complete bullshit?
Missionary work that I did and through which I saw drug abusers and alcoholics change their lives and support their families. Yea, im such an asshole with my door knocking.
Here is the problem, see, most of you have no real experience with the church. You dont live within it like I do, and so you don't see the wonderful things that it does for everyone all throughout the world. Instead you focus in on one tiny appendage that you disagree with and then extrapolate that to cover the entire church and undo any good that we have done.
But it's ok, go ahead and call my religion evil, call me evil for loving someone enough to spend 2 years of my life sharing with others what saved my life. You guys are all obviously perfect and so have the right to decide whether or not I and the rest of my faith are really just evil bigots who hate everyone and never do anything good.
I could do all of this without having to waste anyones time blathering on about religion. Just because your crazy religion forces you to do nice things does not somehow negate the terrible shit it does.
edit: "this" being the humanitarian stuff
ronzo on
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Apothe0sisHave you ever questioned the nature of your reality?Registered Userregular
Missionary work that is meant to help teach people a religion that is complete bullshit?
Missionary work that I did and through which I saw drug abusers and alcoholics change their lives and support their families. Yea, im such an asshole with my door knocking.
Here is the problem, see, most of you have no real experience with the church. You dont live within it like I do, and so you don't see the wonderful things that it does for everyone all throughout the world. Instead you focus in on one tiny appendage that you disagree with and then extrapolate that to cover the entire church and undo any good that we have done.
But it's ok, go ahead and call my religion evil, call me evil for loving someone enough to spend 2 years of my life sharing with others what saved my life. You guys are all obviously perfect and so have the right to decide whether or not I and the rest of my faith are really just evil bigots who hate everyone and never do anything good.
Well, it's pretty rude to come knocking at my door and tell me that I need saving.
I don't thing you are a terrible person or anything, but it's a pretty obnoxious thing to do.
Except thats not what we did. Never once did I tell someone that they were going to hell, in fact, we don't even believe in hell (atleast in the traditional sense that most of christianity does.) The majority of the time when we knocked on a door we would say something to the extent of, "Hi we're missionaries from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and we have a message about how the family can stay together after this life, can we share...etc"
I mean, really if you think that giving people hope that they can see their loved ones again really is an assholish thing to do, then fine, but dont pretend that we act or treat people like those morons in the westboro church or the guys in the op do. We don't do that, our church discourages against that heavily, and If I had done soemthing like that as a missionary I would have been disciplined and sent home. We share our message with love, not hate.
I certainly don't think that such a hope is desirable in and of itself - we, as a society and as individuals have an interest in ensuring that we fully comprehend the true value of life, padding the blow of its loss with wishful thinking is not a good thing. It's clearly a false hope, and that's the cherry on that shit sandwich.
Apothe0sis on
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Element BrianPeanut Butter ShillRegistered Userregular
edited September 2010
So, you think it's better that people go to the grave with the grim perspective that it was all for nothing. Their families should simply accept the fact that they're gone and live with the pain of lost love.
That a life like that is far better than trying to do everything in your power to be with your loved ones again. The pain and fear of a grim death is far more pleasing than going to your death bed with the knowledge that someone is waiting for you beyond the vail, that not only can you see your loved ones again, but you can continue to progress with them as an eternal family.
So, you think it's better that people go to the grave with the grim perspective that it was all for nothing. Their families should simply accept the fact that they're gone and live with the pain of lost love.
That a life like that is far better than trying to do everything in your power to be with your loved ones again. The pain and fear of a grim death is far more pleasing than going to your death bed with the knowledge that someone is waiting for you beyond the vail, that not only can you see your loved ones again, but you can continue to progress with them as an eternal family.
Yeah man, hope totally isn't desirable at all.
It's not hope, its bullshit false hope, which makes everything worse
alternatively, have fun beating the hell out the strawman you've built
So, you think it's better that people go to the grave with the grim perspective that it was all for nothing. Their families should simply accept the fact that they're gone and live with the pain of lost love.
That a life like that is far better than trying to do everything in your power to be with your loved ones again. The pain and fear of a grim death is far more pleasing than going to your death bed with the knowledge that someone is waiting for you beyond the vail, that not only can you see your loved ones again, but you can continue to progress with them as an eternal family.
Yeah man, hope totally isn't desirable at all.
I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.
Posts
If it's Islam, yes. Otherwise, it's a case-by-case issue.
And hey, it's not just child rape! You can be a goddamn bomb-chucking multiple-murdering terrorist and the church will still get your back!
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/italy/100824/claudy-bombing-ira-ireland-catholic-priest
So if you're at my doorstep and implying that this thousands of years old book made by people with no more information than myself is in some way the only right way and that I should totally ignore my own thoughts on the matter because this book is so awesome man, no need to think, it's all right here!
You can go watch me put on my finest porn.
Edit: It all goes back to the fact that belief or non-belief should stay a personal matter you don't push on anyone, not only because it's decent, but also because it's the only way it's sincere
A couple of very polite Mormon girls (both in their mid-twenties) were at my doorstep this morning, just as I was walking out of the door (literally her finger was just on the communal intercom, about to press it).
I had a spare ten minutes so I decided to engage with them rather than ignore them (we mostly talked about open-minded versus 'militant' atheism) and they dished out a few pamphlets and said a prayer for me.
They're coming back next week... Any tips? The history and tenets of the LDS aren't my strong suite - this was actually the first time I'd spoken with a Mormon.
Figure out if you want in next week or not. If you put it off too long and decide against it in the end you will be harassed more than you like.
Ask them about the "Curse of Cain" doctrine and watch them splutter.
Haha, yes, this.
Ask them about Kolob, too.
I was going to read through the whole thread, but then i saw this.
Thanatos, you are absolutely right, the LDS does church horrible, HORRIBLE things with donations that it receives.
http://www.mormon.org/humanitarian-aid/
Thanatos, i whole heartedly disagree with you. I know many wonderful people in my church, and I try myself to do and act as charitable towards others as Jesus would.
You may dislike us for our beliefs, but generalizing an entire culture who has contributed billions of dollars and hours of man power to aid projects is a extremely selfish thing to say and only shows that you care less about how we help and more about one or two peculiar beliefs that seem weird to you. But of course, we are the ones who are horrible. If you are that hateful towards everyone you meet I feel VERY sorry for you.
Arch,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_goGR39m2k
Arch,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_goGR39m2k
Well, on the same subject, how about the incredibly abusive camps the LDS (and other churchs, mind you) run to "force out gayness?
But the hateful things that it does completely override the good things.
"We believe in the people and their 'wisdom' as if there was some special secret entrance to knowledge that barred to anyone who had ever learned anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Things like if homosexuals are allowed as leaders then the church will pull its members and cut funding.
I really can't support the atheist thing as being the cause of the LDS because I don't know if that existed before the LDS got involved and I don't know of any LDS public statements in relation to the BSA about it. The homosexual one is pretty public, though.
Rigorous Scholarship
edit: Unless those gay people are pedophiles in my family, then I just let them continue their actions until they actually get caught, then I shuffle them off to other areas using money that other people gave me.
The BSA was anti-gay and anti-atheist lonnnnnggggggg before anyone with the mormon faith took over.
Missionary work that I did and through which I saw drug abusers and alcoholics change their lives and support their families. Yea, im such an asshole with my door knocking.
Here is the problem, see, most of you have no real experience with the church. You dont live within it like I do, and so you don't see the wonderful things that it does for everyone all throughout the world. Instead you focus in on one tiny appendage that you disagree with and then extrapolate that to cover the entire church and undo any good that we have done.
But it's ok, go ahead and call my religion evil, call me evil for loving someone enough to spend 2 years of my life sharing with others what saved my life. You guys are all obviously perfect and so have the right to decide whether or not I and the rest of my faith are really just evil bigots who hate everyone and never do anything good.
Arch,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_goGR39m2k
Edit: In fact, I know of a few.
Yes, this is exactly what I was going for....
Strangely enough, I don't think that you can be a "nice person" and still lynch gays.
No organization has a spotless record. None. It's not just a problem with Churches, but also with governments (which for my money is the only kind of organization that should be compared to a religious institution). Are there any governments that have never done anything wrong or evil ever? No. Does that mean that they should all be dismantled and set on fire? No. They should change, certainly, just as the LDS should change (and has). It is true that changing religious institutions is slow and hard (hehe, hard), however, I'm not willing necessarily to throw the baby out with the bath water.
Also, it should be stated here, that I am not a member of any religious group. I was never in my life part of one (only member of my family to escape baptism), and have no plans on becoming a member. I am a committed athiest, and I think the word "agnostic" is stupid and meaningless. I however, am not hostile to religion necessarily. They do some fucked up things, and should stop, but I don't think that religion is something evil in itself. My mom is very religious, catholic, and would never defend the abuses her church (in the grand sense) commits. She's one of the nicest people in the world, and one of the most caring and loving folks that you will ever meet.
"We believe in the people and their 'wisdom' as if there was some special secret entrance to knowledge that barred to anyone who had ever learned anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Ehhh, no. Not true.
Prior to 1979, Rule 1 of the Scout Master's handbook stated, verbatim,:
"You do not instruct to undertake scouts in any formalized manner, in the subject of sex and family life. The reasons are is that it is not construed to be Scouting's proper area, and you are probably not well qualified to do this."
This was changed some years later when the CLDS garnered a largely disproportionate share of financial and administrative influence in the program.
Other big problems?
- The Boy Scouts accepts federal funding.
- The Boy Scouts has charters allowing them cost-free access to public institutions to use as meeting places.
- There's no strong legal precedent or authority that justifies the disallowal of gays into a non-sex-based, allegedly non-religious organization.
Don't put words in the mouths of others, guy.
No one said that the LDS church never did anything good. But they are full of hateful bigots, though. You're the largest active religious block in America persecuting gays and lobbying for wide-sweeping social policy change that's on par with fascism.
If that's your thing, be proud of it. But don't piss on your feet and pretend its raining.
But then again it's just Thanatos, so if he wishes that I die a horrrific painful death of cancer, then I guess I should just sit here and accept that shit right?
Arch,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_goGR39m2k
Well, it's pretty rude to come knocking at my door and tell me that I need saving.
I don't thing you are a terrible person or anything, but it's a pretty obnoxious thing to do.
Religion does some people a lot of good, and if it causes you to be a good person and you're happy with yourself, then by all means. Hell, nothing wrong with trying to convince other people to live good lives either. Just be aware that your definition of a good life might be slightly different then the person you are trying to help.
That's never okay ever. Mormons just do it with an extra stripe of an especially recent series of crazy, ridiculous lies.
To give a bit of doubting benefit, it's generally more a misguided version of, "Oh, we should help these poor people who don't know the truth!"
The funny part being I'm far more assured in my agnosticism than most people are in their theism, yet I don't go door to door or proselytize, demonstrating with discernible logic and reason why religion is harmful in both a personal and geo-political context.
I dunno. Maybe I should.
That's what I don't get. Why does religion get the special treatment when it comes to poorly-founded philosophy? Take the Marxist, Objectivist, and Nihilist to task, but leave the hateful bigots who believe in magic alone?
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In other news, Mormons are hugely disproportionately represented within the CIA and FBI. There are more members of the LDS church than any other faith group.
Except thats not what we did. Never once did I tell someone that they were going to hell, in fact, we don't even believe in hell (atleast in the traditional sense that most of christianity does.) The majority of the time when we knocked on a door we would say something to the extent of, "Hi we're missionaries from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and we have a message about how the family can stay together after this life, can we share...etc"
I mean, really if you think that giving people hope that they can see their loved ones again really is an assholish thing to do, then fine, but dont pretend that we act or treat people like those morons in the westboro church or the guys in the op do. We don't do that, our church discourages against that heavily, and If I had done soemthing like that as a missionary I would have been disciplined and sent home. We share our message with love, not hate.
Arch,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_goGR39m2k
I could do all of this without having to waste anyones time blathering on about religion. Just because your crazy religion forces you to do nice things does not somehow negate the terrible shit it does.
edit: "this" being the humanitarian stuff
I certainly don't think that such a hope is desirable in and of itself - we, as a society and as individuals have an interest in ensuring that we fully comprehend the true value of life, padding the blow of its loss with wishful thinking is not a good thing. It's clearly a false hope, and that's the cherry on that shit sandwich.
That a life like that is far better than trying to do everything in your power to be with your loved ones again. The pain and fear of a grim death is far more pleasing than going to your death bed with the knowledge that someone is waiting for you beyond the vail, that not only can you see your loved ones again, but you can continue to progress with them as an eternal family.
Yeah man, hope totally isn't desirable at all.
Arch,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_goGR39m2k
It's not hope, its bullshit false hope, which makes everything worse
alternatively, have fun beating the hell out the strawman you've built
I'd rather know it's final than have false hope.
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