It is not the job of the government to keep you from being annoyed by other people in every instance.
Yet when there is a compelling interest in doing so, the government passes laws to do just this.
Private nuisance is the interference with the right of specific people. Nuisance is one of the oldest causes of action known to the common law, with cases framed in nuisance going back almost to the beginning of recorded case law. Nuisance signifies that the "right of quiet enjoyment" is being disrupted to such a degree that a tort is being committed.
"To such a degree that a tort is being committed."
The commitment to the marketplace of ideas and the concept that there is some degree to which people should be able to advertise both give ground to the idea that it is not an unreasonable level of nuisance for you to have someone knock on your door once a day/week.
Free speech always stops at a property line. That's why the "free marketplace" can't open a both on my front lawn.
Right. And that's why you're allowed to enforce your property rights and invoke trespass laws. But a blanket ban on the ability to initiate communication in person would not be productive to society.
Get a peep-hole in your door? Don't recognize the person on the other side, don't open the door?
Eh, I don't know. I got tired of people calling me to solicit crap. So now I just say "hey hold on a second" and put the phone down in front of the TV and go about my business. :P
Joshofalltrades: How often does this happen to you and is it really /that/ annoying?
Yes this does happen to everyone but usually its pretty infrequent and its not a major hassle on my life. I wish religious people wouldn't come to my door but I have no qualms about saying "no thanks" and shutting the door and going on about my life.
CommunistCow on
No, I am not really communist. Yes, it is weird that I use this name.
I've volunteered for political campaigns and we ignore such signs. I was told that these are directed at salesmen and thus groups who are not looking for money can ignore them.
Just reading up, but it appears that California has specific language regarding no trespass signs and those types of signs seem more generally useful.
Also intent to deprive others of their property rights seems like a major part of this in a criminal sense. However most of those property rights seem to entail disrupting business activities or long term occupation or property damage.
Setting up a fence with no trespassing signs seems like the best solution, if you invite friends over you can just tell them its for door to door salesmen and pollsters you don't want. I would guess mailboxes and some kind of buzzer should be outside the fence though. There also appears to be something in Texas about painting purple lines on trees or posts to signify a property line? It might just be an agricultural thing though.
(2) "Notice" means:
...
(D) the placement of identifying purple paint
marks on trees or posts on the property, provided that the marks
are:
(i) vertical lines of not less than eight
inches in length and not less than one inch in width;
(ii) placed so that the bottom of the mark
is not less than three feet from the ground or more than five feet
from the ground; and
(iii) placed at locations that are readily
visible to any person approaching the property and no more than:
(a) 100 feet apart on forest land; or
(b) 1,000 feet apart on land other
than forest land; or
Void Slayer on
He's a shy overambitious dog-catcher on the wrong side of the law. She's an orphaned psychic mercenary with the power to bend men's minds. They fight crime!
That kind of thing is used in rural or wooded areas where building an actual barrier along the property line isn't practical or generally necessary. You wouldn't do it on a residential lot.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
I just want people to not ring the doorbell. It drives the dogs nuts, and soon that'll mean waking up babies. And me, since I work third shift (what feels like) 2/3 of the time.
If a "No Trespassing" sign is the way to go then that's great. I guess I'll just need to call Schwan's and tell them that they're okay since I want to buy asparagus and other stuff from them.
I worked for a company that had us going door to door to talk to people about replacement windows. Our boss told us it was not soliciting as all we were doing was setting up an appointment for people to meet with a salesmen.
God I hated that job. Gave me some good stories to tell though.
I just want people to not ring the doorbell. It drives the dogs nuts, and soon that'll mean waking up babies. And me, since I work third shift (what feels like) 2/3 of the time.
If a "No Trespassing" sign is the way to go then that's great. I guess I'll just need to call Schwan's and tell them that they're okay since I want to buy asparagus and other stuff from them.
Uhm...given that you don't want the dogs to be driven crazy, as that will soon mean waking up babies, when would you want the doorbell being rung? If never, why not just disable it?
In England, at least, there's a service called the Telephone Preference Service, or TPS. As a telemarketer (B2B although I used to do B2C), I'm well aware that if we phone a company or home with TPS, we'll be fined, so obviously we don't.
It'd be great if it were possible to sort something like that out for houses.
In England, at least, there's a service called the Telephone Preference Service, or TPS. As a telemarketer (B2B although I used to do B2C), I'm well aware that if we phone a company or home with TPS, we'll be fined, so obviously we don't.
It'd be great if it were possible to sort something like that out for houses.
They have that in the US. It's called the Do Not Call List. It is easily and frequently subverted. Companies use software to mask the number being called from, they do not (and normally will not) identify the company they're calling from, and if and when you request to be put on the List, they normally just disconnect the call.
I once answered the door for some Jehovahs in just my underwear. They were pretty uncomfortable talking to me and just handed me a copy of the Watchtower and ran away. That's really been my only experience with any kind of solicitation.
But I do think No Solicitor signs should be enforceable and punishable in the same way that we handle No Tresspassing signs. It just seems like a natural thing to include the two of them in the same category.
I just want people to not ring the doorbell. It drives the dogs nuts, and soon that'll mean waking up babies. And me, since I work third shift (what feels like) 2/3 of the time.
If a "No Trespassing" sign is the way to go then that's great. I guess I'll just need to call Schwan's and tell them that they're okay since I want to buy asparagus and other stuff from them.
Uhm...given that you don't want the dogs to be driven crazy, as that will soon mean waking up babies, when would you want the doorbell being rung? If never, why not just disable it?
/derailment.
Well, like I mentioned the Schwan's man is okay. Also, I'm okay with neighbors and friends ringing the bell. I just don't like when I not only have to calm down the dogs and the babies they woke up when I didn't really want to talk about vacuum cleaners, God, or a free roof inspection.
Sounds like a "No Trespassing" sign is the way to go.
Around here neighborhood associations will ban door-to-door solicitation, and the police are very cooperative in enforcing it. The idea is that it's a police matter because sometimes door-to-door solicitors are fraudsters, or are casing the house for a later robbery, or are looking for a suitable home invasion target.
Of course, what that means in practice is that you better not go door to door if you're black or brown. White people can get away with it. That is unfortunately often the effect of enforcing things like this.
It should NEVER be made illegal for me, as an honest and legitimate businessman, who makes is living spotting homeowners in need of my services, to approach them at their door to see if they are interested.
We can sit here all day and tell horror stories of all these monsters who victimized you at your front door, or who tread on you just because they knocked on your door to say hello.
Sales makes the world go around. Sales gives you jobs so you can pay for that house and that front door you're slamming in their face; no need to be so rude.
Just either don't answer the door, in which case I will simply leave you a flyer and look forward to your call, or answer the door, see what I'm selling and politely tell me "no I'm not interested', whereby I will smile at you and say "Ok, have a nice day, call me if you need anything".
It really doesnt have to be so hostile as people make it.
Sure, I dont like to be disturbed at my home either; who does? Noone. But I dont bite off the head of the person who is simply inquiring as to whether I need their service or not. I simply say "no, I'm not interested, but good luck in your endevours" and close the door. That way I'm not a jerk, and I understand THEY, just like all of us are TRYING TO EARN A LIVING.
I don't buy the stories of the monsters that seem to infringe so badly on people, how rude they are, aggressive, even hostile. In my experience, people exaggerate greatly the situation in order to embolden and validate their claims, even if its not really based in the reality of what happened.
Hey, its one thing for me to come around and say "Hey can I have $5-$20 for [donation]", with no services offered. I can see why many communities have tried to discourage such a thing; I understand there would probably be charities and other organizations just ringing your doorbell off every week.
But come on. Sure, I may be 'selling' you something, but the action of knocking on your door is to say "Hello, here is what I do, would you be interested?". Sure I would like to get your business that day, thats the point I walk around door to door, but I'm just as happy to have you politely consider my services for the future and keep me in mind. After all, I came to your house specifically because I thought you would NEED my service.
You NEED it, I perform the service for you, you are happy, I get to feed myself - Its a partnership.
I don't care to hear all your stories at the door about how some monsters came by and ripped you off- yeah yea yeah... People claim to get ripped off, when they knew full well that service was suspiciously underpriced, the biz card/advertising materials printed on a home computer, unkempt person, unkempt vehicle, shifty persona.... 1) Did you ask for referrals or work in the neighbourhood they have done before hiring them? NO? hmm 2) Did they offer to do the service/job/contract up front and only expect payment after you were satisified? NO?!!? You gave them 50% of the price up front for them to 'buy materials'? 3) THey dont know WHO they did last in your area and cant provide info NO?!?? But you still hired them? 4) Did you have a regular guy that used to do the service, but you hired this guy because he was $50 cheaper then wondered why he didnt do the right job?
Look, I respect your right to not be bothered, and I will try to comply. In the case that I don't simply inform me and I will apologize for bothering you, and be on my way after telling you to 'have a nice day'. No need to be hostile, or pull your gun out like a redneck, slamming doors, cursing, screaming at, etc someone who is just trying to feed themselves.
Making a law to FINE people for SIMPLY PURSUING THEIR LIVELIHOOD IN A LAWFUL MANNER, is trampling on more rights and is far more serious than any rights you feel are being infringed.
"Oh I'm being disturbed. Fine this person $5000 for disturbing me" Give me a break.
The irony is that this 'rule' (posed as a law) is usually embraced by some bored retired people who can't wait to lecture, scream at and threaten to call the police on, people like me who are just saying hello. Oh they'll tell me I can't solicit here, or there, and that I can't even return to my own customer's houses unless they call me first, etc.. wanting to go into my books to see who is my customer or not... threatening to call the cops because I dared to leave a biz card on their door or approach them because I WAS DOING WORK NEXT DOOR.
As far as trespassing goes, ANY and EVERY House I approach I am technically trespassing anyway. I could be trespassing as soon as I knock on any door that I was uninvited. Does that mean I should get shot and killed? Is this the society we want to live in?
Come on. People need to chill out, be thoughtful of others (as I am), and work with each other in this society.
The least of your worries is someone ringing your doorbell to say "Hey, I do lawns, do you want yours mowed?"
It really doesnt have to be the big affair some would like it to be.
Why am I unsurprised that a door-to-door solicitation advocate would also be a necroposter? But, while I'm here, I saw this come up a couple times...
Just either don't answer the door, in which case I will simply leave you a flyer and look forward to your call...
I'm baffled as to how, absent having a CCTV system with multiple monitor units anywhere I might be in the house, I'm supposed to know who is at my door prior to answering it. I have no way to know whether it's a solicitor at my door, or whether it's my neighbor, or an (unannounced) friend, or the police, or...whoever.
Posts
Right. And that's why you're allowed to enforce your property rights and invoke trespass laws. But a blanket ban on the ability to initiate communication in person would not be productive to society.
Eh, I don't know. I got tired of people calling me to solicit crap. So now I just say "hey hold on a second" and put the phone down in front of the TV and go about my business. :P
Yes this does happen to everyone but usually its pretty infrequent and its not a major hassle on my life. I wish religious people wouldn't come to my door but I have no qualms about saying "no thanks" and shutting the door and going on about my life.
And your tax refundable donation.
please give us your money
Also intent to deprive others of their property rights seems like a major part of this in a criminal sense. However most of those property rights seem to entail disrupting business activities or long term occupation or property damage.
Setting up a fence with no trespassing signs seems like the best solution, if you invite friends over you can just tell them its for door to door salesmen and pollsters you don't want. I would guess mailboxes and some kind of buzzer should be outside the fence though. There also appears to be something in Texas about painting purple lines on trees or posts to signify a property line? It might just be an agricultural thing though.
From http://law.onecle.com/texas/penal/30.05.00.html
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
If a "No Trespassing" sign is the way to go then that's great. I guess I'll just need to call Schwan's and tell them that they're okay since I want to buy asparagus and other stuff from them.
God I hated that job. Gave me some good stories to tell though.
Uhm...given that you don't want the dogs to be driven crazy, as that will soon mean waking up babies, when would you want the doorbell being rung? If never, why not just disable it?
/derailment.
It'd be great if it were possible to sort something like that out for houses.
They have that in the US. It's called the Do Not Call List. It is easily and frequently subverted. Companies use software to mask the number being called from, they do not (and normally will not) identify the company they're calling from, and if and when you request to be put on the List, they normally just disconnect the call.
But I do think No Solicitor signs should be enforceable and punishable in the same way that we handle No Tresspassing signs. It just seems like a natural thing to include the two of them in the same category.
Well, like I mentioned the Schwan's man is okay. Also, I'm okay with neighbors and friends ringing the bell. I just don't like when I not only have to calm down the dogs and the babies they woke up when I didn't really want to talk about vacuum cleaners, God, or a free roof inspection.
Sounds like a "No Trespassing" sign is the way to go.
Of course, what that means in practice is that you better not go door to door if you're black or brown. White people can get away with it. That is unfortunately often the effect of enforcing things like this.
It should NEVER be made illegal for me, as an honest and legitimate businessman, who makes is living spotting homeowners in need of my services, to approach them at their door to see if they are interested.
We can sit here all day and tell horror stories of all these monsters who victimized you at your front door, or who tread on you just because they knocked on your door to say hello.
Sales makes the world go around. Sales gives you jobs so you can pay for that house and that front door you're slamming in their face; no need to be so rude.
Just either don't answer the door, in which case I will simply leave you a flyer and look forward to your call, or answer the door, see what I'm selling and politely tell me "no I'm not interested', whereby I will smile at you and say "Ok, have a nice day, call me if you need anything".
It really doesnt have to be so hostile as people make it.
Sure, I dont like to be disturbed at my home either; who does? Noone. But I dont bite off the head of the person who is simply inquiring as to whether I need their service or not. I simply say "no, I'm not interested, but good luck in your endevours" and close the door. That way I'm not a jerk, and I understand THEY, just like all of us are TRYING TO EARN A LIVING.
I don't buy the stories of the monsters that seem to infringe so badly on people, how rude they are, aggressive, even hostile. In my experience, people exaggerate greatly the situation in order to embolden and validate their claims, even if its not really based in the reality of what happened.
Hey, its one thing for me to come around and say "Hey can I have $5-$20 for [donation]", with no services offered. I can see why many communities have tried to discourage such a thing; I understand there would probably be charities and other organizations just ringing your doorbell off every week.
But come on. Sure, I may be 'selling' you something, but the action of knocking on your door is to say "Hello, here is what I do, would you be interested?". Sure I would like to get your business that day, thats the point I walk around door to door, but I'm just as happy to have you politely consider my services for the future and keep me in mind. After all, I came to your house specifically because I thought you would NEED my service.
You NEED it, I perform the service for you, you are happy, I get to feed myself - Its a partnership.
I don't care to hear all your stories at the door about how some monsters came by and ripped you off- yeah yea yeah... People claim to get ripped off, when they knew full well that service was suspiciously underpriced, the biz card/advertising materials printed on a home computer, unkempt person, unkempt vehicle, shifty persona.... 1) Did you ask for referrals or work in the neighbourhood they have done before hiring them? NO? hmm 2) Did they offer to do the service/job/contract up front and only expect payment after you were satisified? NO?!!? You gave them 50% of the price up front for them to 'buy materials'? 3) THey dont know WHO they did last in your area and cant provide info NO?!?? But you still hired them? 4) Did you have a regular guy that used to do the service, but you hired this guy because he was $50 cheaper then wondered why he didnt do the right job?
Look, I respect your right to not be bothered, and I will try to comply. In the case that I don't simply inform me and I will apologize for bothering you, and be on my way after telling you to 'have a nice day'. No need to be hostile, or pull your gun out like a redneck, slamming doors, cursing, screaming at, etc someone who is just trying to feed themselves.
Making a law to FINE people for SIMPLY PURSUING THEIR LIVELIHOOD IN A LAWFUL MANNER, is trampling on more rights and is far more serious than any rights you feel are being infringed.
"Oh I'm being disturbed. Fine this person $5000 for disturbing me" Give me a break.
The irony is that this 'rule' (posed as a law) is usually embraced by some bored retired people who can't wait to lecture, scream at and threaten to call the police on, people like me who are just saying hello. Oh they'll tell me I can't solicit here, or there, and that I can't even return to my own customer's houses unless they call me first, etc.. wanting to go into my books to see who is my customer or not... threatening to call the cops because I dared to leave a biz card on their door or approach them because I WAS DOING WORK NEXT DOOR.
As far as trespassing goes, ANY and EVERY House I approach I am technically trespassing anyway. I could be trespassing as soon as I knock on any door that I was uninvited. Does that mean I should get shot and killed? Is this the society we want to live in?
Come on. People need to chill out, be thoughtful of others (as I am), and work with each other in this society.
The least of your worries is someone ringing your doorbell to say "Hey, I do lawns, do you want yours mowed?"
It really doesnt have to be the big affair some would like it to be.
I'm baffled as to how, absent having a CCTV system with multiple monitor units anywhere I might be in the house, I'm supposed to know who is at my door prior to answering it. I have no way to know whether it's a solicitor at my door, or whether it's my neighbor, or an (unannounced) friend, or the police, or...whoever.