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I really hope that no one thinks that demand for video games would stay absolutely constant without specialty shops like Gamestop around. ESPECIALLY for smaller devs/pubs.
Absolutely wright, but no one wants to listen to the parable of the broken window.
And you really ought to reevaluate your self worth, because it isn't as high as you seem to think it is.
And not a thing you've said is provably true. And not a thing I've said is "tosh". Pip pip, Cheerio!
You can't prove the second thing, but games have been left unfinished for much WORSE reasons that DLC plenty of times.
It is silly to claim absolutely that it never happens. Game companies are just as greedy as any other company; just because we like the things they make doesn't mean that they aren't just out to get our money. It is equally silly to claim that ALL DLC is this, because so much DLC clearly isn't. Even the infamous horse armor was additional content that didn't complete the game, just added something EXTRA on to it.
I've listed several games, repeatedly. It's not my fault you can't read.
But to the point even in your example $2 per copy resold will add up. If there are 15,000 copy sold to game stop that's 10,000 not going to new games and 20,000 not going to the employees of game stop. at game stop that's basically 2 peoples jobs out the window. Is $2 still nothing? in a conservative estimate 2 people on unemployment for a small fee.
This whole thread is a pack of lies!
That's it, I've had an epiphany! I am but a worthless....thingy... and old PooPoo here is just so right about everything it's blinding.
We should all bow down at his feet and beg humble forgiveness for ever doubting his utter, utter brilliance.
It was the Pip Pip that did it , of course. With such a brilliantly reasoned argument up there in the highest leagues, brushing shoulders with gems like: "No I never! You smell, no YOU smell." there really isn't anything in my armour that can resist such eloquence.
i just went back through all of your posts (all of them, really, because this is the only threads he's posted in), and I can't find a single mention of game where the DLC was cut from the game and released for pure profit. Sure, you've acused devs of doing it multple times, but you're flat out fucking wrong on at least one count
Also, looking through all of your posts, its become very clear that several other people have made the same arguments i have (some even using the same games as examples. You either dodged the question entirely, or shifted the goalposts with your answer (hey, how does rockband fit into your DLC philosophy? You never answered eljeffe, only saying "i dont play them so eh")
basically I wash my hands of you because its too tiring to argue with such a stupid position about this
No...the money DOES go to new games. It goes to the publisher. To use. Instead of the money they are using that is currently not being used for new games.
And no shit it'll add up, and who's getting it now? If that money isn't paid to the publisher, servers will not get supported and get closed early, devaluing the worth of the games bought by customers who have paid by buying new games.
Providing online content isn't free. Or did you think it was because you have an all you can download option with your ISP? Nope.
Providing it free to everyone forever will bankrupt publishers. I couldn't care about two less Gamestop employees standing around ignoring me, or asking me to pre-order everything. There will always be other shops where I can buy games. Publishers and developers are closing down at an alarming rate and if not supported in this way, you'll have less choices in the future.
And minimum wage Gamestop employees can find employment somewhere else unless they are completely unemployable, in which case what are they doing at GameStop? Oh hang on...
Man, those were the days.
They're actually trying to move away from that.: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2010-08-10-thq-may-scrap-annual-ufc-policy
THQ is a vastly different company from what they were a while back. Just look at their line up.
Actually, I did follow up on the RB thing, but as I said before, it's not my fault you can't read.
And if - ME2 day 1 DLC was devolped in the 6 weeks between the game going gold and being released. - is true, then they should have held the release back and put it on the disc. Period.
No it doesn't. it goes to playing an old game. Not the purchase of a new game.
You know as well as I do that a change in earning is going to effect the people on the bottom first. So any fees that are coming out of sales at a game stop are coming strait out of some bodies paycheck.
Again they are getting paid. A flat rate but still getting paid. No matter how many times a game is sold it doesn't increase the number of consoles that can play that game. There for there is no loss in profit from used games as you imply.
Your answer to that is let them find other work. have you opened a paper in a few years? we are in a recession. Jobs are scares and if they do find one that's a job someone else would have taken. The fact is this will destroy jobs witch are rare right now.
So when do they release it? After only the Day 1 DLC or would you have them push it back to the Firewalker stuff? Overlord? The Shadowbroker DLC that is coming out in Mid-September? At some point the game has to go out the door and DLC exists to make thing that otherwise never would have been on the disc to exist.
Think of DLC as analogous to the multiple Blade runner re-releases. There have been several that have added scenes or content over the years. Should Blade Runner never have been released in the first place?
By this terrible, terrible standard, you would have developers never release a game, because they could never reach your arbitrary point of "feature complete." One of the single greatest things about good DLC is that it lengthens the life span of a game considerably. Does this benefit the publisher and developer? Absolutely, because a continuous drip of good DLC means that people are keeping the game instead of trading it in/selling it, and it encourages people to buy the game new. Does this benefit consumers? Absolutely, because while originally the game may have been 15-20 hours, now with good DLC you can continue to play the game long after you complete the main game by adding on additional chapters until the (possible) sequel.
For an example of good DLC I give you Borderlands. From what I understand development on the first two DLC packs (The Zombie Island of Dr. Ned and Mad Moxxi's Underdome Riot) started as the game was wrapping up/going gold. By your standard, they would have waited until those two packs were complete, regardless of how long it took, and regardless of technical/cost limitations. Furthermore, since Borderlands released, they have fully developed an additional DLC pack (The Secret Armory of General Knoxx), which is a good 10 hour expansion, and are scheduled to release a fourth pack this fall. Once again, by your standard, Gearbox would have waited until these last two packs were developed until releasing the game.
There is no logic to your standard other than an arbitrary assignment of personal value to the game you buy. I suspect that you would happily buy a 6 hour game that never had any DLC and not offer a single peep of criticism, while griping at the top of your lungs at a 30 hour game later releasing additional 10 hour game packs as DLC.
People are still trying to convince the digital downloadable content version of Howard Hughes that the vampires aren't out to get him and that it's safe to take the Kleenex boxes off of his feet.
additionally, i appologize for not seeing your rockband post, no need to repeatedly insult my ability to read.
then again, this opinion is flat out ridiculous so maybe i just blocked it out earlier. The THOUSAND extra songs released that do not, in any way at all, change the completeness of the core game are bad, bar nothing
The assumption that Gamestop would drop employees if they were dropping profit is not necessarily true. Gamestops appear to be run according to a corporate rulebook to maximize payroll/revenue. Even without the highly profitable used game model, or even a small portion of that model, chances are they have as many people working the stores as there needs to be. Retail in general is based around rock bottoming payroll as much as possible. Assuming excess is more unlikely.
SteamID: devCharles
twitter: https://twitter.com/charlesewise
your argument would be sound if not for 2 things. 1: there are redundancy that game stop doesn't need. IE a third person on staff for truck days holiday staff etc. 2:there is a difference between jobs. Namely the turnaround of cash. someone working for game stop is probably living paycheck to paycheck. someone working for THQ or EA is more likely to have it store it. this means that the money that goes to the game stop employee will revolve again. 100% of the sale from customer will go to a different game or system. This means that a new game will not be sold dew to fees. so your not just robbing game stop and the people that work there but other developers.
It's coming sooner than you think.
I dont know, but the original ending to that game was complete shit. It failed on every single level. I only hope that when Ron Perlman was voice acting the ending slide show he asked "Seriously guys, that's it? Really? You don't want me to run through how the players actions affected any of the people he interacted with over the course of the game? No? Fuck it. I get paid either way."
#FreeScheck
#FreeSKFM
For instance, The Lost and the Damned for GTA IV was an amazing example of DLC done awesome. On the otherhand, I never got to Broken Steel for Fallout 3 because Operation Anchorage was such garbage and apparently I've been denied the 'real' ending.
Fuck Bethseda.
#FreeScheck
#FreeSKFM
Super for you. Your choice. This is not proof that any given publisher/dev "held back" content to release it as monetized DLC at/near the game's release. Which is what people were asking you for. Aside from recent fuckmuppetry involving used games (like THQ's nonsense), I'd love for you to provide an example of a game where the publisher clearly held back content from the game's original on-disc release and released it as DLC. Content that, absent the monetized DLC, would have still existed and been a part of the game.
Mass Effect? No. Fallout 3? No. Prince of Persia? Are these your go-to examples, or do you have one that's not wrong, and which people haven't explained to you why you are wrong on?
You've yet to give an example of a game in which, in a world without DLC, your on-disc experience would necessarily have been any fucking different.
Not enough facepalm in the world, man. Not enough.
A) At this point, any game with multiple DLC releases would just never get released. Unless you would just prefer that content not exist...at which point just don't buy it oh my god you stupid motherfucker what the fuck is wrong and why are people still having to try and get this through your stupid ass skull.
B) Alternately, somebody gave you a very good explanation of why, from an accounting perspective, the likely alternative would be the DLC simply not existing and you would instead get only the content on the disc but you are too fucking stupid to get it good god just shut the fuck up and die. If the money for the DLC was set aside separately, as a separate contract/account, for its creation then there are no funds available to hold back the release of the game. There's no income to cover it. I'm assuming you've never worked for a business that actually tracked expenses to direct accounts before, but then I'm also assuming you are functionally retarded what the fuck is wrong with you?
*Any* DLC content that is available Day One, the same launch day as the disc, is content that *has* been held back and should be on the disc.
And you don't have to be such a dick.
YOU. ARE. FUCKING. WRONG.
NO, I'M NOT.
Listen. Like, really listen. Don't start thinking about your response yet, because if you do it will be wrong, just like you've been roughly 40 or 50 times already.
When software (or hardware, for that matter) gets developed, generally money is set aside for specific tasks. This is how budgeting is done, and how you track whether tasks are completed on time and on budget. Unless funds are set aside for XYZ, XYZ is not developed. Period. Like, we've had tasks at my work that we know need to happen, are beneficial, but unless funding is set aside for us to charge our time to, they don't get worked on. Because we have other tasks that do have funding already cut for them that also need to get done.
This is generally how any development works.
So, if (completely made up numbers) $1M is set aside to develop the main game, and $100K is set aside for the DLC, then the only reason the $100K is set aside for the DLC is because they're anticipating the sales of that DLC. The $1M is set aside in anticipation of the sales of the disc you so dearly care about. Money from the $1M cannot be used for the DLC unless the main game comes in under budget...which, as you can guess (well...maybe not you but anybody who deals with these things) is not the usual result.
Which means that absent the money charged for the DLC, there would be no DLC. And in this case pushing back a release date is the equivalent of spending money.
Even if the DLC is on the disc, and must be unlocked, that is still content that would not exist absent the receipts from the DLC, and thus the customer who pays only $60 has not paid for. When you walk up and pay for the disc, what you have unlocked and available to you by default is the exact fucking game your $60 would have bought you in the first place. Period. Absent the anticipated receipts from the DLC (actually downloaded or unlocked on-disc), it would not exist.
So when you buy the disc, you are getting the "complete" game you are paying for.
Day one DLC is content that was generally being separately funded and developed either in parallel or immediately following the completion of the "core" game. It's a separate product, that would not exist in a world without DLC...because in order to fund its creation, they'd have to charge $70 (well, maybe $65) for the game instead of $60.
Basically, your continued bitching just proves, over and over, that you know absolutely fucking zero about how the business of any kind of hardware or software generally works. Also that you are completely unable to grasp the idea that, in a time before DLC, parts of games got straight-up cut for funding reasons that today gamers actually get to see. You have this silly fetish with "ZOMG ON DA DISK!!!1!eleven!" that keeps you from seeing what is right in front of your face.
What is on the disc is what would have been available if they had no way to charge for the DLC. You've shown nothing that suggests otherwise, and those of us that work in development have tried to explain to you why this is.
But you're wrong. It wouldn't have been. Because it wouldn't have been funded. They'd have finished the "core" game, then gone on to work on either an on-disc expansion pack, or another game. The end.
There are people out there, like me, who are willing to wait and buy a GOTY edition if they'll put it out.
Don't just release the game and say "if you don't like it, do without!"
Yes, it is the case.
If it's profitable to re-release the game, they'll do so. Otherwise, they won't. If not, then the DLC is created for, and funded by, DLC customers...not you. Either enjoy the game you're paying for, or don't. But for fuck's sake, don't sit there making silly arguments that demonstrate your complete lack of understanding about how the business side of development (or just development in general) works, then ignoring anybody who tries to educate your dumb ass.
Like if that had happened for Fallout 3, would that have blown your mind
Well it's in their interest to reach the widest amount of customers possible, and releasing games with DLC on disc seems like a no-brainer to reach more potential customers. WTF is the point of Blu-Ray and all that storage space if they're going to keep offering digital content.
Also consider the costs of manufacturing, distribution, negotiating retail space etc. in comparison with using digital services