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Let's Study the Man-Child

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Posts

  • AtomikaAtomika Hypercritical Queen Bitch of Cinema Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    CasedOut wrote: »
    CasedOut wrote: »
    CasedOut wrote: »
    Why should it be allowed and acceptable? Don't tell me just because thats how the human brain works either, because there are a lot of things that occur in the human brain that should be unacceptable.

    First of all, how far an extent do you think this kind of thing regularly gets taken to? It's not like these judgments ever go further than one's mind.

    And it's acceptable because in an exceeding majority of instances the suppositions are correct. If there weren't social values attributed to self-presentation, then we'd all just go naked.

    Again, you're looking for zebras.

    sounds like stereotyping to me, also I am not looking for Zebras. I am just posing a philosophical question really. Why should it be acceptable philosophically speaking?

    edit: and why exactly would it be a bad thing if we all went naked? sounds like you have some deep seated preconceptions to me

    Oh. You're one of these people.

    Bah.

    fantastic rebuttal

    When some questions the need for clothing, it's time to shut it down. There's no more reason to be had here. I don't know what prize you're after, but I assure you you've won it.

    Kudos.

  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    CasedOut wrote: »
    edit2: also it seems like you are basically saying you can stereotype people based on clothes they wear because that stereotype holds true in the majority of cases, with no statistical evidence to back this up, just your own life experiences, this is why stereotyping is typically a bad thing
    We aren't talking about peer reviewed studies published in some academic journal somewhere. I don't need objective statistical studies to make day-to-day decisions in my personal life. You probably do the same. If you're walking down a deserted street at 2 in the morning and you hear someone coming up behind you, would you be become less or more nervous if you saw it was a middle-aged guy in a nice suit, carrying a briefcase. What if it was a young dude with lots of tats who had his sweatshirt hood up and carrying a tire iron?

    If you say you'd be nervous about both of them equally, I'd say you're full of shit or totally clueless.

    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • AtomikaAtomika Hypercritical Queen Bitch of Cinema Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    CasedOut wrote: »
    edit2: also it seems like you are basically saying you can stereotype people based on clothes they wear because that stereotype holds true in the majority of cases, with no statistical evidence to back this up, just your own life experiences, this is why stereotyping is typically a bad thing
    We aren't talking about peer reviewed studies published in some academic journal somewhere. I don't need objective statistical studies to make day-to-day decisions in my personal life. You probably do the same. If you're walking down a deserted street at 2 in the morning and you hear someone coming up behind you, would you be become less or more nervous if you saw it was a middle-aged guy in a nice suit, carrying a briefcase. What if it was a young dude with lots of tats who had his sweatshirt hood up and carrying a tire iron?

    If you say you'd be nervous about both of them equally, I'd say you're full of shit or totally clueless.

    But what if they were naked, Modern Man?

    What then, huh?

  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    CasedOut wrote: »
    edit2: also it seems like you are basically saying you can stereotype people based on clothes they wear because that stereotype holds true in the majority of cases, with no statistical evidence to back this up, just your own life experiences, this is why stereotyping is typically a bad thing
    We aren't talking about peer reviewed studies published in some academic journal somewhere. I don't need objective statistical studies to make day-to-day decisions in my personal life. You probably do the same. If you're walking down a deserted street at 2 in the morning and you hear someone coming up behind you, would you be become less or more nervous if you saw it was a middle-aged guy in a nice suit, carrying a briefcase. What if it was a young dude with lots of tats who had his sweatshirt hood up and carrying a tire iron?

    If you say you'd be nervous about both of them equally, I'd say you're full of shit or totally clueless.

    You know who cares around briefcases at 2 in the morning?

    Serial killers and Russian spies.

    While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    CasedOut wrote: »
    edit2: also it seems like you are basically saying you can stereotype people based on clothes they wear because that stereotype holds true in the majority of cases, with no statistical evidence to back this up, just your own life experiences, this is why stereotyping is typically a bad thing
    We aren't talking about peer reviewed studies published in some academic journal somewhere. I don't need objective statistical studies to make day-to-day decisions in my personal life. You probably do the same. If you're walking down a deserted street at 2 in the morning and you hear someone coming up behind you, would you be become less or more nervous if you saw it was a middle-aged guy in a nice suit, carrying a briefcase. What if it was a young dude with lots of tats who had his sweatshirt hood up and carrying a tire iron?

    If you say you'd be nervous about both of them equally, I'd say you're full of shit or totally clueless.

    But what if they were naked, Modern Man?

    What then, huh?
    Come on now. It's unfair to draw negative conclusions about someone just because they choose to walk naked down a public street at 2 in the morning.

    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    CasedOut wrote: »
    CasedOut wrote: »
    CasedOut wrote: »
    Why should it be allowed and acceptable? Don't tell me just because thats how the human brain works either, because there are a lot of things that occur in the human brain that should be unacceptable.

    First of all, how far an extent do you think this kind of thing regularly gets taken to? It's not like these judgments ever go further than one's mind.

    And it's acceptable because in an exceeding majority of instances the suppositions are correct. If there weren't social values attributed to self-presentation, then we'd all just go naked.

    Again, you're looking for zebras.

    sounds like stereotyping to me, also I am not looking for Zebras. I am just posing a philosophical question really. Why should it be acceptable philosophically speaking?

    edit: and why exactly would it be a bad thing if we all went naked? sounds like you have some deep seated preconceptions to me

    Oh. You're one of these people.

    Bah.

    fantastic rebuttal

    When some questions the need for clothing, it's time to shut it down. There's no more reason to be had here. I don't know what prize you're after, but I assure you you've won it.

    Kudos.

    Translation: "I think the way I think and it is right because it is right."

    Maybe this philosophy works for you. I have no doubt you will lead a happy life informed in part by this philosophy. After all, ignorance often is bliss and assuming actual personal responsibility for our beliefs is often a painful process.

    I just think human beings can rise above the laziness of ignorance and bias. I think they can. I think they should.

    steam_sig.png
  • AtomikaAtomika Hypercritical Queen Bitch of Cinema Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Drez wrote: »
    CasedOut wrote: »
    CasedOut wrote: »
    CasedOut wrote: »
    Why should it be allowed and acceptable? Don't tell me just because thats how the human brain works either, because there are a lot of things that occur in the human brain that should be unacceptable.

    First of all, how far an extent do you think this kind of thing regularly gets taken to? It's not like these judgments ever go further than one's mind.

    And it's acceptable because in an exceeding majority of instances the suppositions are correct. If there weren't social values attributed to self-presentation, then we'd all just go naked.

    Again, you're looking for zebras.

    sounds like stereotyping to me, also I am not looking for Zebras. I am just posing a philosophical question really. Why should it be acceptable philosophically speaking?

    edit: and why exactly would it be a bad thing if we all went naked? sounds like you have some deep seated preconceptions to me

    Oh. You're one of these people.

    Bah.

    fantastic rebuttal

    When some questions the need for clothing, it's time to shut it down. There's no more reason to be had here. I don't know what prize you're after, but I assure you you've won it.

    Kudos.

    Translation: "I think the way I think and it is right because it is right."

    Maybe this philosophy works for you. I have no doubt you will lead a happy life informed in part by this philosophy. After all, ignorance often is bliss and assuming actual personal responsibility for our beliefs is often a painful process.

    I just think human beings can rise above the laziness of ignorance and bias. I think they can. I think they should.

    I have a small inclination to report this for concern trolling.

  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Do you really think a discussion on whether or not we should all go around naked is anything more than college freshman-level bullshit?

    I mean, come on.

    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • SipexSipex Registered User
    edited September 2010
    You don't have to take the whole side of an arguement. You can just say "I don't believe people should be prosecuted because they're wearing gaming T-shirts" without having to go "People should be able to do ANYTHING that doesn't harm someone directly."

    edit: Although there will be one goose who will throw it in your face. You can just tell him that we live in a greyscale world though or plain ignore him. People think in absolutes too often.

    Horseshoe wrote:
    I've got good news and bad news about 6th level, That Guy. The good news is that Forbiddance spell allows you to prevent enemies different alignment from entering a consecrated area, which is actually useful! The bad news is that the only other new sixth level spell makes lunch for everybody. Guess which one the party is going to expect you to cast.
  • syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products regular
    edited September 2010
    If I was walking down the street and I saw a bunch of young people all dressed in the same color, bandanas, tatted up and a little bleary eyed, I have a pretty damn good idea of what I am dealing with, I don't need to strike up a conversation with them to figure that out. And if I am wrong... well, whatever prejudice fueled that mistake will probably save my ass 9 out of 10 times, so I'll deal with not learning how that particular street troupe were in fact the exceptions to the rule.

    People get mad with the "wearing the uniform" comedy bit, but the reason people laugh at it is because there is a kernel of truth to it.

    Someone in their 30s with cat ears / naruto headband / glue-spiked dyed hair is probably not someone with a 9-5 office job. He MIGHT be, but chances are that's an outlier.

    Someone wearing a doctors coat and stethoscope will probably be able to help you with your broken leg. He MIGHT be a crazy person or a role player, but chances are those are outliers.

  • FartacusFartacus __BANNED USERS
    edited September 2010
    CasedOut wrote: »
    edit2: also it seems like you are basically saying you can stereotype people based on clothes they wear because that stereotype holds true in the majority of cases, with no statistical evidence to back this up, just your own life experiences, this is why stereotyping is typically a bad thing

    Is stereotyping a bad thing? Seems pretty useful a good chunk of the time (why would be why it's a built-in human behavior -- it's proven useful over the years).

    In general, let's remember, the empirical process sort of mirrors what human brains naturally (and mostly unconsciously) do. And in fact human brains tend to do it almost as well and much much faster than as an explicit process.

    For example, look at athletics. An excellent basketball player does not explicitly compute a vector analysis of each of her shots before making a basket -- she simply knows what feels correct and what doesn't. She knows how to make a shot based an abundance of well-integrated prior experience. Broadly speaking, this is not a different process from stereotyping. At the end of the day, we're really talking about induction.

    I'd argue that the places that intuitive induction (as opposed to formal induction, i.e. science) works best are when you have an opportunity for clear, discrete feedback from your observations. Sports is one such endeavor -- as you practice how to shoot a basket, it either goes in or it doesn't. This allows your brain to build, essentially, a database of observations and perform a statistical analysis to figure out what coordinated motor actions produce the desired result, and which do not.

    I'd also argue that analysis of people is another good example. Someone looks a certain way, and when you interact with them, you either like them or you don't. And I think Atomic Ross raises a good point that people who project lack of self-awareness and social-awareness in their appearance/public behavior are likely to indeed by socially- and self-unaware. Not surprisingly, most people find that unpleasant to interact with.

    So, we have both a conceptual framework to understand why appearance/public behavior would be related to unpleasantness, and additionally we have a pretty clear way in which people develop good observations on how appearance relates to behavior. Again, I want to emphasize that these are not arbitrary, in-born appearances -- one chooses how to dress and present themselves. This is not equivalent to stereotyping on, say, sex.

    On that note, I think one of the ways our stereotyping mechanism becomes unhelpful is when we have too few observations in our "database," and as a result use observations that aren't really our own. E.g., things that we're told by authority figures, or media presentations of people. If you're a Republican in Idaho, there's a good chance you've never met a black person. And, unfortunately, our brains aren't great at discerning fictional experiences (the coke dealing black guy on Law and Order this week) from real ones, especially in the absence of real observations. So, basically, our mechanism can skew, and maybe you could argue that our perception of nerds is unfairly altered by the media in this regard. Of course, I'm not sure that's persuasive on this particular board, given that most of us are or have been pretty obviously nerds, and we certainly don't lack for experience with that sort of social group.

  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    CasedOut wrote: »
    edit2: also it seems like you are basically saying you can stereotype people based on clothes they wear because that stereotype holds true in the majority of cases, with no statistical evidence to back this up, just your own life experiences, this is why stereotyping is typically a bad thing
    We aren't talking about peer reviewed studies published in some academic journal somewhere. I don't need objective statistical studies to make day-to-day decisions in my personal life. You probably do the same. If you're walking down a deserted street at 2 in the morning and you hear someone coming up behind you, would you be become less or more nervous if you saw it was a middle-aged guy in a nice suit, carrying a briefcase. What if it was a young dude with lots of tats who had his sweatshirt hood up and carrying a tire iron?

    If you say you'd be nervous about both of them equally, I'd say you're full of shit or totally clueless.

    The question isn't "do we have biases?" it is "should we have biases?" or "are our biases based on anything valid?"

    Yes I have biases. I already said I am imperfect. And though I would be extremely wary of anyone approaching me on a deserted street at 2AM, I might run a little farther from the tattooed guy but that would be based on a bias I have no evidence or logic to support. So I would be wrong.

    Again, we're back to whether or not some of you believe that thinking informs truth. People thought the sun went around the Earth for years. This was a common belief. They were completely wrong. If you can't provide any data or logic for your beliefs they are invalid and any actions or judgments you make based on them are wrong.

    steam_sig.png
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Sipex wrote: »
    You don't have to take the whole side of an arguement. You can just say "I don't believe people should be prosecuted because they're wearing gaming T-shirts" without having to go "People should be able to do ANYTHING that doesn't harm someone directly."
    I think you meant persecuted, not prosecuted. And no one is calling for pogroms against guys wearing gaming t-shirts. At worst, people are just less likely to take you seriously than the guy wearing a suit. Or maybe roll their eyes at you.
    Drez wrote: »
    Yes I have biases. I already said I am imperfect. And though I would be extremely wary of anyone approaching me on a deserted street at 2AM, I might run a little farther from the tattooed guy but that would be based on a bias I have no evidence or logic to support. So I would be wrong.
    Your argument here might make sense if you were hatched from a pod yesterday and had no prior interactions or experience with other human beings. In that case, you would have no basis for deciding whether suit guy or tattoo tire iron guy are more threatening.

    But I assume you aren't newly pod-hatched, so you must have some knowledge of how outward social cues, such as clothing, work and what they typically suggest. You must know that business suit, briefcase wearing middle-aged guys make up a very small percentage of the violent criminal demographic. You're not making some sort of random, irrational determination. You're drawing a conclusion based on a set of very rational and logical pieces of evidence collected during your lifetime in this society.

    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • SipexSipex Registered User
    edited September 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Sipex wrote: »
    You don't have to take the whole side of an arguement. You can just say "I don't believe people should be prosecuted because they're wearing gaming T-shirts" without having to go "People should be able to do ANYTHING that doesn't harm someone directly."
    I think you meant persecuted, not prosecuted. And no one is calling for pogroms against guys wearing gaming t-shirts. At worst, people are just less likely to take you seriously than the guy wearing a suit. Or maybe roll their eyes at you.

    Yes yes, that's what I meant.

    My base point still stands though. You don't need to completely dedicate yourself to one side of an arguement.

    Horseshoe wrote:
    I've got good news and bad news about 6th level, That Guy. The good news is that Forbiddance spell allows you to prevent enemies different alignment from entering a consecrated area, which is actually useful! The bad news is that the only other new sixth level spell makes lunch for everybody. Guess which one the party is going to expect you to cast.
  • AtomikaAtomika Hypercritical Queen Bitch of Cinema Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Drez wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    CasedOut wrote: »
    edit2: also it seems like you are basically saying you can stereotype people based on clothes they wear because that stereotype holds true in the majority of cases, with no statistical evidence to back this up, just your own life experiences, this is why stereotyping is typically a bad thing
    We aren't talking about peer reviewed studies published in some academic journal somewhere. I don't need objective statistical studies to make day-to-day decisions in my personal life. You probably do the same. If you're walking down a deserted street at 2 in the morning and you hear someone coming up behind you, would you be become less or more nervous if you saw it was a middle-aged guy in a nice suit, carrying a briefcase. What if it was a young dude with lots of tats who had his sweatshirt hood up and carrying a tire iron?

    If you say you'd be nervous about both of them equally, I'd say you're full of shit or totally clueless.

    The question isn't "do we have biases?" it is "should we have biases?" or "are our biases based on anything valid?"

    Yes I have biases. I already said I am imperfect. And though I would be extremely wary of anyone approaching me on a deserted street at 2AM, I might run a little farther from the tattooed guy but that would be based on a bias I have no evidence or logic to support. So I would be wrong.

    Again, we're back to whether or not some of you believe that thinking informs truth. People thought the sun went around the Earth for years. This was a common belief. They were completely wrong. If you can't provide any data or logic for your beliefs they are invalid and any actions or judgments you make based on them are wrong.

    Why do you persist in framing this conversation as both prosecutorial and binary in measure?

    What do you want us to say? That, yes, on rare occasion we will be wrong in using intuitive discernment in superficial evaluations? If so, you win. I freely admit it.

    Meanwhile, enjoy your carte-blanche interactions with hitchhikers near prison camps.

  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Meanwhile, enjoy your carte-blanche interactions with hitchhikers near prison camps.
    I saw a porno like that once. But I learned long ago that porn lies to you when it comes to situations like this.

    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • LucidLucid Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    In both of these fictional scenarios, a prison camp/hitchhiker and late night with some tattoo hooded tire wielding person, there are various other factors involved in judging appearances. Circumstance is added to your final judgement.

    None of this exists in the cat ear wearing person on the bus scenario. There is nothing to judge besides the fact that they are wearing cat ears. Perhaps they may be acting a little odd. In the other instances you can come up with enough information to make a rational decision. It's late, you're near a prison, the person has a physically threatening object, etc. In the anime cat ears, there is no additional information to make a significant judgement of that person, beyond that they're a little different than you. You cannot logically proceed any further in assessing them or their lifestyle. Filling in the gaps of information yourself, would at this point be useless.

  • AtomikaAtomika Hypercritical Queen Bitch of Cinema Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Lucid wrote: »
    In both of these fictional scenarios, a prison camp/hitchhiker and late night with some tattoo hooded tire wielding person, there are various other factors involved in judging appearances. Circumstance is added to your final judgement.

    None of this exists in the cat ear wearing person on the bus scenario. There is nothing to judge besides the fact that they are wearing cat ears. Perhaps they may be acting a little odd. In the other instances you can come up with enough information to make a rational decision. It's late, you're near a prison, the person has a physically threatening object, etc. In the anime cat ears, there is no additional information to make a significant judgement of that person, beyond that they're a little different than you. You cannot logically proceed any further in assessing them or their lifestyle. Filling in the gaps of information yourself, would at this point be useless.

    The fact that one scenario may have more contextual signals than another doesn't make the mechanisms in play any different. Actually, for the guy with cat ears, adding more context would likely only improve his situation, as if he were somewhere where such a thing could explain his outlandishness he likely wouldn't see so out of place.

    But otherwise, your comment makes no sense.

  • DeebaserDeebaser Alpha Teemo Fake Board GamerRegistered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Lucid wrote: »
    None of this exists in the cat ear wearing person on the bus scenario. There is nothing to judge besides the fact that they are wearing cat ears. Perhaps they may be acting a little odd.

    And that is all he is being judged on. He is being judged as a "dork" or an "oddball". No one is advocating taking any action because none is really warranted. It's possible that the dude rocking cat ears on the bus is the most awesome, interesting, least nerdy person ever, but it isn't terribly likely.

    Similarly, if you saw this guy on the bus:

    Peacocking.jpg

    You would probably think "douchebag". For all you know he volunteers at a children's hospice on weekends, but the fact remains that the image he is presenting to the world is "future Tool Academy contestant".

  • emnmnmeemnmnme Heard about this on conservative radio:Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Does he seem like the kind of person you could enjoy a beer with? I use that metric all the time to figure out which candidate should be President so why not apply it to strangers on the bus as well to determine their worth as civilized beings?
    Spoiler:

    easybossfight_zps4752c132.gif
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Deebaser wrote: »
    You would probably think "douchebag". For all you know he volunteers at a children's hospice on weekends, but the fact remains that the image he is presenting to the world is "future Tool Academy contestant".
    Ack. Dear God. And I guaranty there are women who let that guy into their vaginas.

    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • AtomikaAtomika Hypercritical Queen Bitch of Cinema Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Deebaser wrote: »
    You would probably think "douchebag". For all you know he volunteers at a children's hospice on weekends, but the fact remains that the image he is presenting to the world is "future Tool Academy contestant".
    Ack. Dear God. And I guaranty there are women who let that guy into their vaginas.

    That's a confidence thing. Douchebags have an abundance of it, for some inexplicable reason, and women tend to like confident guys.

    Maybe if ol' cat-ears wasn't so hangdog and oblivious he would rock that shit and be knee deep in trim and kick off a fashion revolution.

    I really do think that's part of it. Manchildren always have this posture and expression that they know that they look stupid, are embarassed about it, but can't help it. Like tourettes or something. However, I promise you someone like Kanye West could rock cat-ears, because he knows he looks good in whatever. He's got the confidence.

  • Gennenalyse RuebenGennenalyse Rueben Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    If a person is presenting themselves as socially unaware, the odds are exceedingly likely that they are.

    What does this even mean? What does it mean to be "socially unaware"? Do you think everyone who doesn't dress entirely acceptably is "socially unaware"?
    But here's the deal: people with functional social perception don't own clothing that deviates too far outside the norm.

    Wait, what? What is the norm exactly? Am I supposed to dress in suits every time I go out...
    I've taken some flak over the years for a story I tell that's kind of pertinent to this. *STORY TIME* I've had many people say, "Hey, it was very early in the morning and he probably grabbed the first thing he could put on. Cut him some slack." To which my reply is, why would you have those clothes on hand to begin with?

    Apparently yes, I am. Sorry, I don't own any suits because 1) they're ugly as all hell and 2) they look especially awful on me. Oh, but it's a good thing I don't like branded clothing because it's...ugly and socially unacceptable? I mean, I agree that outfit was ugly. But socially unacceptable? Maybe in the high society of the 1800's.

    Incidentally, if many people have responded with that, then maybe it isn't half as unacceptable as your ideal. Maybe your ideal is incredibly unrealistic?
    You ever see pictures of dirt-poor farmers from the Twenties? Dressed to the nines just to bale hay and slop hogs. It doesn't cost any more to look like someone with a functional personality than it does to look like some variation of a fucking moron.

    You can't possibly believe this. MrMister already touched on it, but they were dressed up because they were getting their picture taken in a time when pictures weren't exactly common. Nobody would dress up to go and do dirty farm work, that's just stupid. And yes, "nice" clothes DO cost more than "not nice" clothes and no dirt poor anything is going to be all spiffied up to do work that will destroy those more expensive clothes. That's just a ridiculous waste.
    It's not a sign of maturity to be oblivious to how others may perceive you.

    You seem incapable of telling obliviousness apart from deliberately ignoring. I can assure you when I'm wearing something that isn't socially acceptable (and I can doubly assure you I wear things a lot more unacceptable to society than cat ears or some insulting shirt), it sure as hell isn't because I am unaware that it's socially unacceptable. I just have little reason to care about what Random Person #400 in aisle 2 thinks of me until they decide to insult me to my face.

    You seem utterly convinced that anyone who doesn't dress entirely acceptably in public is so utterly immature that you can write them off as shut-in man-children (or woman-children, I guess). Yours is the argument I truly find atrocious here. It's not logical, it's not rational, it's not even realistic. I'm also not inclined to regard the extremeness of it as how most humans actually think. In fact, I'm more inclined to say that we are a tribal species that tends to not give two shits about what Random Person #400 thinks about us because we don't know them. Unless of course we're given a good reason to get to know them.

    EDIT: Errr, removed some language that could've been construed as inflammatory and didn't add anything to my post. My apologies.

  • AtomikaAtomika Hypercritical Queen Bitch of Cinema Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    O! The frothing!
    Wait, what? What is the norm exactly?

    Nakedness. Drez already said.

  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    You seem incapable of telling obliviousness apart from deliberately ignoring. I can assure you when I'm wearing something that isn't socially acceptable (and I can doubly assure you I wear things a lot more unacceptable to society than cat ears or some insulting shirt), it sure as hell isn't because I am unaware that it's socially unacceptable. I just have little reason to care about what Random Person #400 in aisle 2 thinks of me until they decide to insult me to my face.
    And if you're willing to live with the consequences, fine. No one is going to stop you from wearing pretty much what you want (except in places with a dress code).

    But I assume you're aware that by dressing in a manner that is significantly outside the norm, you are greatly limiting and putting yourself at a social disadvantage in many contexts. You won't be seated at certain restaurants, you might get followed by security at certain stores and so on. You certainly won't get most jobs if you show up wearing unusual clothing.

    You may be okay with these social disadvantages and you certainly have the right to dress however you want. But I hope you don't expect the rest of us to look past the statement you are making by wearing certain outrageous outfits.

    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products regular
    edited September 2010
    I will take offense to the "it costs more to dress your way" statement.

    Ironic t-shirts ordered off the Internet EASILY cost the same or more than a button-down at wal-mart. I have nothing against ironic t-shirts. I own a few. But to say that it costs more to look good is goosy.

    Also, you should care about what random people think about you (to an extent... it's not healthy to obsess). Who knows who is going to be your next love interest, coworker, boss, etc? Just because you aren't PLANNING on meeting the love of your life that day doesn't mean you should not take pride in your outward appearance.

  • AtomikaAtomika Hypercritical Queen Bitch of Cinema Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    syndalis wrote: »
    I will take offense to the "it costs more to dress your way" statement.

    Ironic t-shirts ordered off the Internet EASILY cost the same or more than a button-down at wal-mart. I have nothing against ironic t-shirts. I own a few. But to say that it costs more to look good is goosy.

    Also, you should care about what random people think about you (to an extent... it's not healthy to obsess). Who knows who is going to be your next love interest, coworker, boss, etc? Just because you aren't PLANNING on meeting the love of your life that day doesn't mean you should not take pride in your outward appearance.

    Right. Wal-Mart will sell you a suit for about $40 bucks, and you can get decent jeans and a collared shirt for about $18 combined.

    The way you dress is a conscious decision to express yourself. Much like free speech, you are still partly responsible for the repercussions of such a statement.

    What some people here are basically advocating is having it both ways, and not being judged for making an expressive statement. And that's goosery of the highest order. Plus, it's pretty selfish, too.

  • LucidLucid Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Lucid wrote: »
    In both of these fictional scenarios, a prison camp/hitchhiker and late night with some tattoo hooded tire wielding person, there are various other factors involved in judging appearances. Circumstance is added to your final judgement.

    None of this exists in the cat ear wearing person on the bus scenario. There is nothing to judge besides the fact that they are wearing cat ears. Perhaps they may be acting a little odd. In the other instances you can come up with enough information to make a rational decision. It's late, you're near a prison, the person has a physically threatening object, etc. In the anime cat ears, there is no additional information to make a significant judgement of that person, beyond that they're a little different than you. You cannot logically proceed any further in assessing them or their lifestyle. Filling in the gaps of information yourself, would at this point be useless.

    The fact that one scenario may have more contextual signals than another doesn't make the mechanisms in play any different. Actually, for the guy with cat ears, adding more context would likely only improve his situation, as if he were somewhere where such a thing could explain his outlandishness he likely wouldn't see so out of place.

    But otherwise, your comment makes no sense.
    That's not really the point though. I think you misunderstood. There's no real significant consequence to the cat ears situation, whereas these past few scenarios keep adding additional information to further delineate. Yes, you're right more context would improve the cat ears scenario judgement. As it is though, the scenarios aren't really comparable and not very relevant.
    And that is all he is being judged on. He is being judged as a "dork" or an "oddball". No one is advocating taking any action because none is really warranted.
    Except people such as legionofone have previously argued that you could indeed judge someone to the point of them being lazy, unhygenic, socially outcast or whatever based on this cat ears nonsense. I didn't claim there was an advocating of action against anyone. What is the point of repeatedly stating that people will be judged on their appearance, like it or not. Everyone knows that. If you're in agreement that there's no reason for a judgement beyond thinking they're dorky for five seconds then moving on, then what is the argument here?
    What some people here are basically advocating is having it both ways, and not being judged for making an expressive statement.
    Perhaps I've missed this somewhere, but I don't think anyone has advocated not being judged at all for appearance.

  • DeebaserDeebaser Alpha Teemo Fake Board GamerRegistered User regular
    edited September 2010
    You must have missed pretty much all of Drez's posts. Here's a recent non-drez one.

    Teyrer wrote:
    I grasp that snap-visual-judgements will of course happen at any and all points, its how we as a species are wired. It happens on the 'machine-code' level. But should we not be ready, and able, to demand better? To demand critical thought, and have a right to disregard the societal norm, which very clearly exists well below that threshold?

  • LucidLucid Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Drez(as I take from him agreeing with me previously) has been pretty much arguing that to make any higher judgment of someone requires more than what you are provided with in the scenario with cat ears/anime shirts/nerd attire. Then to cease judgment at that point.

    That, and the social consequences being negligible for someone who decides to dress nerdy in our society. Making it a decision that isn't really linked to some ill defined man child state of awareness. It isn't until it starts impacting their life in a significant negative way that any judgment of responsibility and mental faculty can be ascertained.

  • Gennenalyse RuebenGennenalyse Rueben Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    O! The frothing!

    I'm not going to apologize for feeling passionately about sweeping statements you made that apply well outside of this thread's context. I also do not appreciate your flippant dismissal. If you're not actually interested in a debate, just say so. I'd rather not waste time.
    Nakedness. Drez already said.

    Is this an actual response or a joke? I can't tell.
    Modern Man wrote: »
    And if you're willing to live with the consequences, fine. No one is going to stop you from wearing pretty much what you want (except in places with a dress code).

    I have not and will never argue against wearing things generally expected of you on the job, going to an interview, etc. Everything I have and will continue to argue for involves just going outside, to the store, or somewhere else public like that. On a normal day.
    But I assume you're aware that by dressing in a manner that is significantly outside the norm, you are greatly limiting and putting yourself at a social disadvantage in many contexts. You won't be seated at certain restaurants, you might get followed by security at certain stores and so on. You certainly won't get most jobs if you show up wearing unusual clothing.

    You may be okay with these social disadvantages and you certainly have the right to dress however you want. But I hope you don't expect the rest of us to look past the statement you are making by wearing certain outrageous outfits.

    Well, only in contexts I don't care about. Though I sincerely doubt security will be trailing me anywhere. <img class=" title=":lol:" class="bbcode_smiley" />
    syndalis wrote:
    Who knows who is going to be your next love interest, coworker, boss, etc? Just because you aren't PLANNING on meeting the love of your life that day doesn't mean you should not take pride in your outward appearance.

    I find it kind of useless to worry about who your next boss or co-worker is going to be, since it's a crapshoot. Could be nearly anyone and there are enough things to worry about in life than what your potential next boss and/or coworkers think. I do take pride in my appearance when I go out, though. There things about me that work against that, but I try to look as decent as possible. "Socially acceptable" and "looking nice" really aren't synonymous.

  • AtomikaAtomika Hypercritical Queen Bitch of Cinema Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Lucid wrote: »
    Drez(as I take from him agreeing with me previously) has been pretty much arguing that to make any higher judgment of someone requires more than what you are provided with in the scenario with cat ears/anime shirts/nerd attire. Then to cease judgment at that point.

    That, and the social consequences being negligible for someone who decides to dress nerdy in our society. Making it a decision that isn't really linked to some ill defined man child state of awareness. It isn't until it starts impacting their life in a significant negative way that any judgment of responsibility and mental faculty can be ascertained.

    I think the curve of one's correctness in judgment skews sharply toward 100% the more outlandish, poorly-wrought, or unhealthy the look expresses.

    So:
    - healthy teenager wearing cat ears = weird, but probably safe
    - obese middle-aged person sitting alone wearing cat ears = likely manchild

  • sidhaethesidhaethe Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    What I find most amusing about all this is that I'm gainfully employed, a homeowner, have a romantic partner, a social life outside of gaming, pursue outside activities, and..... I dress up for Ren Faire and anime conventions.

    Yes, a couple of times a year I put on huge gowns and headgear and walk around being miladied by men wearing swords, or put on colorful wigs and outlandish outfits and get pictures taken of me in the sun.

    The funny part is in a little over a month I am going to put on what I also consider to be a ridiculously outlandish outfit and headgear and stand around having pictures taken of me, only that's called a wedding and will probably make everyone around me smile instead of think I'm an unwashed cat-pee lady.

  • AtomikaAtomika Hypercritical Queen Bitch of Cinema Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    sidhaethe wrote: »
    What I find most amusing about all this is that I'm gainfully employed, a homeowner, have a romantic partner, a social life outside of gaming, pursue outside activities, and..... I dress up for Ren Faire and anime conventions.

    Yes, a couple of times a year I put on huge gowns and headgear and walk around being miladied by men wearing swords, or put on colorful wigs and outlandish outfits and get pictures taken of me in the sun.

    The funny part is in a little over a month I am going to put on what I also consider to be a ridiculously outlandish outfit and headgear and stand around having pictures taken of me, only that's called a wedding and will probably make everyone around me smile instead of think I'm an unwashed cat-pee lady.

    Context, as has been stated many times here before, is important.

    Someone at a renfaire dressed in renfaire garb? Not weird.
    Someone at a wedding dressed in a formal gown? Not weird.
    Someone sitting alone on a bus wearing cat ears? Weird. Forever. Except on Halloween.

  • syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products regular
    edited September 2010
    sidhaethe wrote: »
    What I find most amusing about all this is that I'm gainfully employed, a homeowner, have a romantic partner, a social life outside of gaming, pursue outside activities, and..... I dress up for Ren Faire and anime conventions.

    Yes, a couple of times a year I put on huge gowns and headgear and walk around being miladied by men wearing swords, or put on colorful wigs and outlandish outfits and get pictures taken of me in the sun.

    The funny part is in a little over a month I am going to put on what I also consider to be a ridiculously outlandish outfit and headgear and stand around having pictures taken of me, only that's called a wedding and will probably make everyone around me smile instead of think I'm an unwashed cat-pee lady.

    Do you not see the difference between going to a ren faire a couple of times a year, doing SCA, and NEVER EVER TAKING THE CHAINMAIL OFF, even when you go to the mall or walk through the aisles of wal-mart?

    One is part of a balanced persons interests, and one is someone obsessed with escapism and not well adjusted. They crave attention and love to trash people who judge them.

    Like that fucker with a blog who surgically implanted horns into his head, and asks why people judge him. It's a sickness.

  • sidhaethesidhaethe Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    sidhaethe wrote: »
    What I find most amusing about all this is that I'm gainfully employed, a homeowner, have a romantic partner, a social life outside of gaming, pursue outside activities, and..... I dress up for Ren Faire and anime conventions.

    Yes, a couple of times a year I put on huge gowns and headgear and walk around being miladied by men wearing swords, or put on colorful wigs and outlandish outfits and get pictures taken of me in the sun.

    The funny part is in a little over a month I am going to put on what I also consider to be a ridiculously outlandish outfit and headgear and stand around having pictures taken of me, only that's called a wedding and will probably make everyone around me smile instead of think I'm an unwashed cat-pee lady.

    Context, as has been stated many times here before, is important.

    Someone at a renfaire dressed in renfaire garb? Not weird.
    Someone at a wedding dressed in a formal gown? Not weird.
    Someone sitting alone on a bus wearing cat ears? Weird. Forever. Except on Halloween.

    On the contrary, several posters have expressed delight in taking pictures at anime conventions of the freakazoids dressed up there. I also note you don't list anime cosplay in your list of not weird scenarios. Why is Ren Faire okay and not cosplay?

  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    syndalis wrote: »
    Like that fucker with a blog who surgically implanted horns into his head, and asks why people judge him. It's a sickness.
    The mindset is weird. He went hugely out of his way to do something that any rational person must know is going to attract a lot of attention.

    Then he complains about the fact that he's getting a lot of attention?

    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • AtomikaAtomika Hypercritical Queen Bitch of Cinema Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    sidhaethe wrote: »
    Why is Ren Faire okay and not cosplay?

    Because the Renaissance actually happened instead of being a bunch of Japanese cartoons.

  • AtomikaAtomika Hypercritical Queen Bitch of Cinema Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    syndalis wrote: »
    Do you not see the difference between going to a ren faire a couple of times a year, doing SCA, and NEVER EVER TAKING THE CHAINMAIL OFF, even when you go to the mall or walk through the aisles of wal-mart?

    I dated a girl like that briefly. I broke it off when she literally tried to ascribe Downs Syndrome to fairie magicks.

  • syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products regular
    edited September 2010
    sidhaethe wrote: »
    Why is Ren Faire okay and not cosplay?

    Because the Renaissance actually happened instead of being a bunch of Japanese cartoons.

    Eh. Anime conventions, star wars/trek conventions, even furry bullshit is okay, so long as it is not the center of your entire world.

    When it spreads into your daily life, then you have problems (not the enjoyment of the stuff, but rather the desire to choose the fantasy as opposed to being a responsible fucking human being).

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