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POLITICS EXPLOSION [Liberal Strategies and Methods]

13»

Posts

  • RUNN1NGMANRUNN1NGMAN Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Newark public school teachers are the highest paid in NJ.

    DC public schools have a HUGE budget.

    More money is not a solution. It's all about mismanagement.

  • Captain CarrotCaptain Carrot P'burg, MTRegistered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Rust wrote: »
    Please stop using 'quality' as a synonym for 'good/high-quality'. Thank you.

    why

    it's a valid term

    No. 'Quality' is a noun, and should not be used as an adjective.

    Spoiler:
  • RustRust __BANNED USERS
    edited September 2010
    Rust wrote: »
    Please stop using 'quality' as a synonym for 'good/high-quality'. Thank you.

    why

    it's a valid term

    No. 'Quality' is a noun, and should not be used as an adjective.

    jesus christ
    n., pl., -ties.

    An inherent or distinguishing characteristic; a property.
    A personal trait, especially a character trait: "The most vital quality a soldier can possess is self-confidence" (George S. Patton).
    Essential character; nature: "The quality of mercy is not strain'd" (Shakespeare).

    Superiority of kind: an intellect of unquestioned quality.
    Degree or grade of excellence: yard goods of low quality.

    High social position.
    Those in a high social position.
    Music. Timbre, as determined by harmonics: a voice with a distinctive metallic quality.
    Linguistics. The character of a vowel sound determined by the size and shape of the oral cavity and the amount of resonance with which the sound is produced.
    Logic. The positive or negative character of a proposition.

    adj.
    Having a high degree of excellence: the importance of quality health care.

    there, derail over, now deal w/ it

  • nstfnstf __BANNED USERS
    edited September 2010
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    But if they made the choice to send their kids to private school, it rings pretty hollow. Or if they simply live in a society that is made better (more available products, better economy, lower crime rate) because their neighbor's kids are graduating from high school.

    Railing against school taxes that aren't absolutely out of control is about as short sighted as it gets.
    The complaint isn't about the existence of public schools (well, except for a few fanatics).

    The complaint is that even though they are paying money for public schools, the schools in their area are of low quality, or even dangerous. Which forces them to spend money on private schools to ensure their kids get an education.

    I'd have no problem sending my son to DC public schools if they offered a quality educational product in a safe environment. The problem is, in many cases, they don't. So, people with money are forced to send their kids to private schools that can cost up to $20K a kid.
    Then it strikes me as, if you'll excuse my language, bitching to bitch.

    Because really you've got two options; lower taxes and accept that the schools will simply get worse or raise taxes to the point where you can afford to improve the schools. Obviously there are some administrative problems in there as well, but simply complaining about taxes is the single least productive way to actually approach a problem like public education.

    It's not always about money. You can throw all the money you want at the schools in DC and it won't fix shit. Point blank the teachers suck, always have. But you can't take out the school administration and teachers because of the wards they live in in DC and you'll get painted as "costing people in the community jobs" see how well that turned out for Fenty! <img class=" title=":lol:" class="bbcode_smiley" /> Furthermore the kids bring the violence and problems of their neighborhoods into the schools causing even more of a mess.

    Tossing more money in will just give you nicer property to be destroyed, pay people more money to do just as shitty of a job, nicer books not to be read, and a nicer area to clean blood off of. It won't fix anything.

    People need to come to grips with the fact that the problems are teachers, students, and families involved. Till those things are fixed, no parent that's not grossly negligent is going subject their children to those actors if they can afford not to.

    However actually point out the problems and working on them is a sure as shit way to make sure you get booted out of office. But screaming "well spend the violence and stupid out of our schools" is always greeted with cheers, even if it won't solve anything.

  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Speaking as someone who has seen an influx of money absolutely make a huge difference in public schools, I call bullshit. There are districts in the Philly school district that have been turned around in a couple of years by grants and other income sources.

    Like I said before, there are organizational problems in a lot of places. But we've got a problem in this country with wanting the world from our government without actually wanting to fund anything.
    As I mentioned, Montgomery and Fairfax counties spend less per-pupil than DC, and provide significantly better educations, on the whole. Granted, those places don't have a population that has a large percentage of members of the underclass. But the differences in results should not be so stark.

    The people running the schools in places like DC are the problem. Find me a failing school system, and I guaranty it has a bloated, corrupt and unaccountable culture when it comes to its teachers and administrators.

    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    nstf wrote: »
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    But if they made the choice to send their kids to private school, it rings pretty hollow. Or if they simply live in a society that is made better (more available products, better economy, lower crime rate) because their neighbor's kids are graduating from high school.

    Railing against school taxes that aren't absolutely out of control is about as short sighted as it gets.
    The complaint isn't about the existence of public schools (well, except for a few fanatics).

    The complaint is that even though they are paying money for public schools, the schools in their area are of low quality, or even dangerous. Which forces them to spend money on private schools to ensure their kids get an education.

    I'd have no problem sending my son to DC public schools if they offered a quality educational product in a safe environment. The problem is, in many cases, they don't. So, people with money are forced to send their kids to private schools that can cost up to $20K a kid.
    Then it strikes me as, if you'll excuse my language, bitching to bitch.

    Because really you've got two options; lower taxes and accept that the schools will simply get worse or raise taxes to the point where you can afford to improve the schools. Obviously there are some administrative problems in there as well, but simply complaining about taxes is the single least productive way to actually approach a problem like public education.

    It's not always about money. You can throw all the money you want at the schools in DC and it won't fix shit. Point blank the teachers suck, always have. But you can't take out the school administration and teachers because of the wards they live in in DC and you'll get painted as "costing people in the community jobs" see how well that turned out for Fenty! <img class=" title=":lol:" class="bbcode_smiley" /> Furthermore the kids bring the violence and problems of their neighborhoods into the schools causing even more of a mess.

    Tossing more money in will just give you nicer property to be destroyed, pay people more money to do just as shitty of a job, nicer books not to be read, and a nicer area to clean blood off of. It won't fix anything.

    People need to come to grips with the fact that the problems are teachers, students, and families involved. Till those things are fixed, no parent that's not grossly negligent is going subject their children to those actors if they can afford not to.

    However actually point out the problems and working on them is a sure as shit way to make sure you get booted out of office. But screaming "well spend the violence and stupid out of our schools" is always greeted with cheers, even if it won't solve anything.
    There's actually a ton of scrutiny on the educational higher ups here in Philly. For misconduct, inability or unwillingness to address systemic issues, defrauding the retirement system, etc. But at the same time, there's a very real understanding that our public schools are chronically underfunded, particularly in the inner city. This is on top of tons of other problems like gang violence, parental absenteeism, etc, but the bottom line is that kids need textbooks and they shouldn't have to be donated by Oprah.

    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. On Hiatus!

    Any gamers in the Danville, PA area? PM me if you're interested in some tabletop gaming.
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Speaking as someone who has seen an influx of money absolutely make a huge difference in public schools, I call bullshit. There are districts in the Philly school district that have been turned around in a couple of years by grants and other income sources.

    Like I said before, there are organizational problems in a lot of places. But we've got a problem in this country with wanting the world from our government without actually wanting to fund anything.
    As I mentioned, Montgomery and Fairfax counties spend less per-pupil than DC, and provide significantly better educations, on the whole. Granted, those places don't have a population that has a large percentage of members of the underclass. But the differences in results should not be so stark.

    The people running the schools in places like DC are the problem. Find me a failing school system, and I guaranty it has a bloated, corrupt and unaccountable culture when it comes to its teachers and administrators.
    Inner city schools have tons of problems that those out in the suburbs or exurbs simply don't see. I don't know where Montgomery and Fairfax are when it comes to inner or outer city, but I know that in the districts around here you see a huge difference in per-pupil spending between suburban schools and those that are directly in the city itself, because the return on inner city spending is so much lower. And there are reasons for that. But it doesn't mean that those kids aren't worth spending that money on, or that they have less of a right to an education because they were born in an urban blight and have to deal with gang violence and drugged up former classmates.

    I'm not going to say that there aren't systemic issues, because there are. There are also a ton of externialities that get ignored in statements like "X paid this much per student and these are their test scores."

    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. On Hiatus!

    Any gamers in the Danville, PA area? PM me if you're interested in some tabletop gaming.
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Despite the claims of the teachers' unions, money isn't usually the problem. DC schools are a prime example- we spend more per pupil (about $14,500) than pretty much anywhere in the US, yet we have a near third-world public school system. We spend more per student here than in wealthy Montgomery and Fairfax counties, which have very good schools.

    The problem is that the teachers' unions and the entrenched educational bureaucracy look at the schools as a place for them to draw salaries and escape accountability, rather than a place where kids go to get an education. And when Mayor Fenty and Michelle Rhee tried to reform the system, the teachers' union made it their mission to make sure he wasn't re-elected.

    YMMV, of course- some places have good public schools. But someone paying high property taxes and not getting a decent school system out of it does have a legit complaint.

    The party that can figure out how to fix public schools will win the love of a big slice of the electorate. But the Democrats are probably too beholden to the public sector unions to be that party.
    Speaking as someone who has seen an influx of money absolutely make a huge difference in public schools, I call bullshit. There are districts in the Philly school district that have been turned around in a couple of years by grants and other income sources.

    Like I said before, there are organizational problems in a lot of places. But we've got a problem in this country with wanting the world from our government without actually wanting to fund anything.

    Money might be a relevant local issue for some schools, but Modern Man is right about the shit quality of education not being fixed by throwing money at the problem.

    I think that this is an area where Republicans' antipathy towards unions could be a massive boon to the country, eventually.

    Also: Everyone should watch Waiting For Superman.

    2ezikn6.jpg
  • nstfnstf __BANNED USERS
    edited September 2010
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    nstf wrote: »
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    But if they made the choice to send their kids to private school, it rings pretty hollow. Or if they simply live in a society that is made better (more available products, better economy, lower crime rate) because their neighbor's kids are graduating from high school.

    Railing against school taxes that aren't absolutely out of control is about as short sighted as it gets.
    The complaint isn't about the existence of public schools (well, except for a few fanatics).

    The complaint is that even though they are paying money for public schools, the schools in their area are of low quality, or even dangerous. Which forces them to spend money on private schools to ensure their kids get an education.

    I'd have no problem sending my son to DC public schools if they offered a quality educational product in a safe environment. The problem is, in many cases, they don't. So, people with money are forced to send their kids to private schools that can cost up to $20K a kid.
    Then it strikes me as, if you'll excuse my language, bitching to bitch.

    Because really you've got two options; lower taxes and accept that the schools will simply get worse or raise taxes to the point where you can afford to improve the schools. Obviously there are some administrative problems in there as well, but simply complaining about taxes is the single least productive way to actually approach a problem like public education.

    It's not always about money. You can throw all the money you want at the schools in DC and it won't fix shit. Point blank the teachers suck, always have. But you can't take out the school administration and teachers because of the wards they live in in DC and you'll get painted as "costing people in the community jobs" see how well that turned out for Fenty! <img class=" title=":lol:" class="bbcode_smiley" /> Furthermore the kids bring the violence and problems of their neighborhoods into the schools causing even more of a mess.

    Tossing more money in will just give you nicer property to be destroyed, pay people more money to do just as shitty of a job, nicer books not to be read, and a nicer area to clean blood off of. It won't fix anything.

    People need to come to grips with the fact that the problems are teachers, students, and families involved. Till those things are fixed, no parent that's not grossly negligent is going subject their children to those actors if they can afford not to.

    However actually point out the problems and working on them is a sure as shit way to make sure you get booted out of office. But screaming "well spend the violence and stupid out of our schools" is always greeted with cheers, even if it won't solve anything.
    There's actually a ton of scrutiny on the educational higher ups here in Philly. For misconduct, inability or unwillingness to address systemic issues, defrauding the retirement system, etc. But at the same time, there's a very real understanding that our public schools are chronically underfunded, particularly in the inner city. This is on top of tons of other problems like gang violence, parental absenteeism, etc, but the bottom line is that kids need textbooks and they shouldn't have to be donated by Oprah.

    Fairfax and Montgomery county give kids textbooks with less money.

    The dirty fact about DC schools is they do not exist to educate kids. DC schools are nothing more than a scam that creates middle class paying jobs for the residents of NE and SE. So any actual attempt at reforming them is instantly painted as costing people jobs and attacking the community. Even the appointment of Rhee caused a shit fit because she wasn't a member of those wards, and now you had a an outsider firing people that were pillars of their community.

    The constant lie of "if we only had more money" only comes out to create more of these jobs and pay people more. They do not want money to educate the kids.

    Fenty tried to put an end to this, and they got rid of him. The lesson is clear, people don't actually care about the education their kids are going to get, they want to keep more and more money flowing into the system. The DC school spending is not, and never was, about actually educating people. It is, and was, a bold faced money grab by the lower income wards to create public sector jobs that can't be removed and pay them to do next to nothing.

    And to hell with donating anything to that stupid system. They have the money, they could actually afford the things they claim up and down they can't. Giving them anything only encourages them to keep running the school system like some sort of racket.

    The people got the school system they deserve and that they wanted. Those communities are entirely to blame for the mess they are in.

  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    That maybe true in DC nstf, but when my middle school history book still had two Germanies on the map, you can't say money is never a problem.

    And thats to say nothing about the poor state of science, art and music education in this country.

    sig.jpg
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Again, this is an externialities thing.

    Suburban schools have, by and large, well adjusted student bases with engaged parents and few truly negative outside influences.

    Urban schools have to balance educating the children with protecting them from drugs and violence while they're at school, keeping them out of gangs and standing in for absentee parents.

    Your average suburban school is pretty much the best case scenario for value of individual educational dollars, not because of how it's run but because of the external situation it has to deal with.

    Is there corruption and waste in schools? Sure, welcome to the wonderful world of fallible beings and money. Is it the core source of problems for modern public schools? Only in the most extreme of cases.

    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. On Hiatus!

    Any gamers in the Danville, PA area? PM me if you're interested in some tabletop gaming.
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Inner city schools have tons of problems that those out in the suburbs or exurbs simply don't see. I don't know where Montgomery and Fairfax are when it comes to inner or outer city, but I know that in the districts around here you see a huge difference in per-pupil spending between suburban schools and those that are directly in the city itself, because the return on inner city spending is so much lower. And there are reasons for that. But it doesn't mean that those kids aren't worth spending that money on, or that they have less of a right to an education because they were born in an urban blight and have to deal with gang violence and drugged up former classmates.

    I'm not going to say that there aren't systemic issues, because there are. There are also a ton of externialities that get ignored in statements like "X paid this much per student and these are their test scores."
    I cited Montgomery and Fairfax because they're close in to DC (but have separate school systems) and because they're in different states.

    DC is a pretty good case study for screwed up public schools. It controls its own schools budget, so it isn't beholden to someone in a far-off state capital when it comes to getting educational budgets. Frankly, the teachers and public school administrators have no one to blame but themselves. They can't trot out the usual excuses we hear in other places.

    And the national Democrats have been less-then-helpful. They killed a DC school voucher test program at the behest of the teachers' unions, even though it was incredibly popular with poor black parents (there was a 10-year waitlist). And the GOP doesn't care because DC is such a Democratic stronghold, it's not worth spending political capital to fix anything here.

    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Inner city schools have tons of problems that those out in the suburbs or exurbs simply don't see. I don't know where Montgomery and Fairfax are when it comes to inner or outer city, but I know that in the districts around here you see a huge difference in per-pupil spending between suburban schools and those that are directly in the city itself, because the return on inner city spending is so much lower. And there are reasons for that. But it doesn't mean that those kids aren't worth spending that money on, or that they have less of a right to an education because they were born in an urban blight and have to deal with gang violence and drugged up former classmates.

    I'm not going to say that there aren't systemic issues, because there are. There are also a ton of externialities that get ignored in statements like "X paid this much per student and these are their test scores."
    I cited Montgomery and Fairfax because they're close in to DC (but have separate school systems) and because they're in different states.

    DC is a pretty good case study for screwed up public schools. It controls its own schools budget, so it isn't beholden to someone in a far-off state capital when it comes to getting educational budgets. Frankly, the teachers and public school administrators have no one to blame but themselves. They can't trot out the usual excuses we hear in other places.

    And the national Democrats have been less-then-helpful. They killed a DC school voucher test program at the behest of the teachers' unions, even though it was incredibly popular with poor black parents (there was a 10-year waitlist). And the GOP doesn't care because DC is such a Democratic stronghold, it's not worth spending political capital to fix anything here.
    Are Montgomery and Fairfax in the actual inner city, though? Because as I've said that's a huge deal when it comes to what a school has to spend money on, and the effectiveness of individual education dollars.

    DC as a whole has a ton of systematic problems, and while I'm not as familiar with the situation there as I am with the one here in Philadelphia, I'm sure that those problems are having an effect on the schools. But the reality of the situation is that when you've got to pay for metal detectors, in-school anti-gang task forces, individual tutoring, etc with the same money that your suburban counterparts are spending on books, art supplies and computers, you're going to have drop-offs in effectiveness.

    Without knowing the DC situation outside of my readings on it, I can't really speak to the corruption of individuals within that system. But it's definitely worth pointing out, as I have repeatedly now, that there's more to school budgeting issues than just books and teachers.

    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. On Hiatus!

    Any gamers in the Danville, PA area? PM me if you're interested in some tabletop gaming.
  • shrykeshryke Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Can we move the school talk to a thread where it wouldn't be a huge fucking derail?

  • Gigazombie CybermageGigazombie Cybermage Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2010
    Meh, I really don't know what the solution is. I guess we better just vote and brace for fuckin' impact fellas. I can only hope the dems won't get trounced as we all think they will.

    steam_sig.png
  • JihadJesusJihadJesus Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    shryke wrote: »
    Can we move the school talk to a thread where it wouldn't be a huge fucking derail?

    Haven't you heard, there are only two kinds of threads in D&D - abortion and school reform.

    Tired of getting reamed by Gamestop? Sign up for Goozex!
  • VermVerm Registered User
    edited September 2010
    RUNN1NGMAN wrote: »
    Newark public school teachers are the highest paid in NJ.

    DC public schools have a HUGE budget.

    More money is not a solution. It's all about mismanagement.

    I believe its usually more tied to the relative poverty of the people attending rather than any amount the teachers are paid.

  • SpeakerSpeaker Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    RUNN1NGMAN wrote: »
    Newark public school teachers are the highest paid in NJ.

    DC public schools have a HUGE budget.

    More money is not a solution. It's all about mismanagement.

    Schools are different in every state, county and town.

    Saying "money isn't the solution" because of what is happening in one place, doesn't mean it isn't a solution in other places.

    Connecticut, for instance, spends a great deal of public education and as a result they also have the best public education system in the country and in the world on quite a few different metrics.

    Frankly, I can't think of a less representative anecdote than the District of Columbia to draw general conclusions from.

    Being walkers with the dawn and morning,
    Walkers with the sun and morning, we are not afraid of night,
    Nor days of gloom, nor darkness -
    Being walkers with the sun and morning.
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Speaker wrote: »
    RUNN1NGMAN wrote: »
    Newark public school teachers are the highest paid in NJ.

    DC public schools have a HUGE budget.

    More money is not a solution. It's all about mismanagement.

    Schools are different in every state, county and town.

    Saying "money isn't the solution" because of what is happening in one place, doesn't mean it isn't a solution in other places.

    Connecticut, for instance, spending a great deal of public education and as a result they also have the best public education system in the country and in the world on quite a few different metrics.

    What is it that indicates that money is the salient factor there though?

    2ezikn6.jpg
  • SpeakerSpeaker Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Speaker wrote: »
    RUNN1NGMAN wrote: »
    Newark public school teachers are the highest paid in NJ.

    DC public schools have a HUGE budget.

    More money is not a solution. It's all about mismanagement.

    Schools are different in every state, county and town.

    Saying "money isn't the solution" because of what is happening in one place, doesn't mean it isn't a solution in other places.

    Connecticut, for instance, spending a great deal of public education and as a result they also have the best public education system in the country and in the world on quite a few different metrics.

    What is it that indicates that money is the salient factor there though?

    CT underwent a radical shift in their tax and spending policies over the last twenty years. They used to be low tax/spend like NH but then they went more toward a NY/MA model and ramped up their education spending. They are sometimes used for comparisons like this as a result.

    Being walkers with the dawn and morning,
    Walkers with the sun and morning, we are not afraid of night,
    Nor days of gloom, nor darkness -
    Being walkers with the sun and morning.
  • ElJeffeElJeffe Super Moderator, Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited September 2010
    This thread started out kind of shitty and now it's way off topic and there's another thread with a better OP.

    [While watching popcorn in the microwave]
    Maddie: "Look Riley, the bag's as big as your head now!"
    Riley: "Hahaha, yeah!"
    Maddie: "Look, now it's as big as your butt!"
    Riley: "Omigosh, it looks just like my butt!"
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