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UN Report on Gaza Flottila is out.
Bastable
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/15session/A.HRC.15.21_en.pdf
Choice quotes:
114. Just minutes after soldiers from the zodiac boats had made initial unsuccessful attempts to board, the first helicopter approached the ship at approximately 0430 hours, hovering above the top deck. At this point between 10 and 20 passengers were located in the central area of the top deck, although this number increased as other passengers learned of events on the top deck. The Israeli forces used smoke and stun grenades in an attempt to clear an area for the landing of soldiers. The first rope that was let down from the helicopter was taken by passengers and tied it to a part of the top deck and thereby rendered ineffective for the purpose of soldiers’ descent. A second rope was then let down from the helicopter and the first group of soldiers descended. The Mission does not find it plausible that soldiers were holding their weapons and firing as they descended on the rope. However, it has concluded that live ammunition was used from the helicopter onto the top deck prior to the descent of the soldiers.
116. A number of the passengers on the top deck fought with the soldiers using their fists, sticks, metal rods and knives.69 At least one of the soldiers was stabbed with a knife or other sharp object. Witnesses informed the Mission that their objective was to subdue and disarm the soldiers so that they could not harm anyone. The Mission is satisfied on the evidence that at least two passengers on the bridge deck also used handheld catapults to propel small projectiles at the helicopters. The Mission has found no evidence to suggest that any of the passengers used firearms or that any firearms were taken on board the ship. Despite requests, the Mission has not received any medical records or other substantiated information from the Israeli authorities regarding any firearm injuries sustained by soldiers participating in the raid. Doctors examined the three soldiers taken below decks and no firearm injuries were noted. Further, the Mission finds that the Israeli accounts so inconsistent and contradictory with regard to evidence of alleged firearms injuries to Israeli soldiers that it has to reject it.
118. Israeli soldiers continued shooting at passengers who had already been wounded, with live ammunition, soft baton charges (beanbags) and plastic bullets. Forensic analysis demonstrates that two of the passengers killed on the top deck received wounds compatible with being shot at close range while lying on the ground: Furkan Doðan received a bullet in the face and Ýbrahim Bilgen received a fatal wound from a soft baton round (beanbag) fired at such close proximity to his head that parts such as wadding penetrated his skull entered his brain. Furthermore, some of the wounded were subjected to further violence including being hit with the butt of a weapon, being kicked in the head, chest and back and being verbally abused. A number of the wounded passengers were handcuffed and then left unattended for some time before being dragged to the front of the deck by their arms or legs.
123. During the shootings on the bridge deck and as it became apparent that a large number of passengers had become injured, Bulent Yildirim, the President of IHH and one of principal organisers of the flotilla, removed his white shirt which was then used as a white flag to indicate a surrender. This does not appear to have had any effect and live firing continued on the ship.
According to forensic analysis, tattooing
around the wound in his face indicates that the shot was delivered at point blank range.
Furthermore, the trajectory of the wound, from bottom to top, together with a vital abrasion
to the left shoulder that could be consistent with the bullet exit point, is compatible with the
shot being received while he was lying on the ground on his back. The other wounds were
not the result of firing in contact, near contact or close range, but it is not otherwise possible
to determine the exact firing range. The wounds to the leg and foot were most likely
received in a standing position.
Pretty much the UN Investigation condemns Israeli actions, states they used live ammo from the helo's and shot civilians while they where lying wounded on the decks.
Choice quotes:
114. Just minutes after soldiers from the zodiac boats had made initial unsuccessful attempts to board, the first helicopter approached the ship at approximately 0430 hours, hovering above the top deck. At this point between 10 and 20 passengers were located in the central area of the top deck, although this number increased as other passengers learned of events on the top deck. The Israeli forces used smoke and stun grenades in an attempt to clear an area for the landing of soldiers. The first rope that was let down from the helicopter was taken by passengers and tied it to a part of the top deck and thereby rendered ineffective for the purpose of soldiers’ descent. A second rope was then let down from the helicopter and the first group of soldiers descended. The Mission does not find it plausible that soldiers were holding their weapons and firing as they descended on the rope. However, it has concluded that live ammunition was used from the helicopter onto the top deck prior to the descent of the soldiers.
116. A number of the passengers on the top deck fought with the soldiers using their fists, sticks, metal rods and knives.69 At least one of the soldiers was stabbed with a knife or other sharp object. Witnesses informed the Mission that their objective was to subdue and disarm the soldiers so that they could not harm anyone. The Mission is satisfied on the evidence that at least two passengers on the bridge deck also used handheld catapults to propel small projectiles at the helicopters. The Mission has found no evidence to suggest that any of the passengers used firearms or that any firearms were taken on board the ship. Despite requests, the Mission has not received any medical records or other substantiated information from the Israeli authorities regarding any firearm injuries sustained by soldiers participating in the raid. Doctors examined the three soldiers taken below decks and no firearm injuries were noted. Further, the Mission finds that the Israeli accounts so inconsistent and contradictory with regard to evidence of alleged firearms injuries to Israeli soldiers that it has to reject it.
118. Israeli soldiers continued shooting at passengers who had already been wounded, with live ammunition, soft baton charges (beanbags) and plastic bullets. Forensic analysis demonstrates that two of the passengers killed on the top deck received wounds compatible with being shot at close range while lying on the ground: Furkan Doðan received a bullet in the face and Ýbrahim Bilgen received a fatal wound from a soft baton round (beanbag) fired at such close proximity to his head that parts such as wadding penetrated his skull entered his brain. Furthermore, some of the wounded were subjected to further violence including being hit with the butt of a weapon, being kicked in the head, chest and back and being verbally abused. A number of the wounded passengers were handcuffed and then left unattended for some time before being dragged to the front of the deck by their arms or legs.
123. During the shootings on the bridge deck and as it became apparent that a large number of passengers had become injured, Bulent Yildirim, the President of IHH and one of principal organisers of the flotilla, removed his white shirt which was then used as a white flag to indicate a surrender. This does not appear to have had any effect and live firing continued on the ship.
According to forensic analysis, tattooing
around the wound in his face indicates that the shot was delivered at point blank range.
Furthermore, the trajectory of the wound, from bottom to top, together with a vital abrasion
to the left shoulder that could be consistent with the bullet exit point, is compatible with the
shot being received while he was lying on the ground on his back. The other wounds were
not the result of firing in contact, near contact or close range, but it is not otherwise possible
to determine the exact firing range. The wounds to the leg and foot were most likely
received in a standing position.
Pretty much the UN Investigation condemns Israeli actions, states they used live ammo from the helo's and shot civilians while they where lying wounded on the decks.
Philippe about the tactical deployment of german Kradschützen during the battle of Kursk:
"I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."
"I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."
Bastable on
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http://www.jta.org/news/article/2010/09/26/2741044/unhcr-flotilla-report-says-israel-broke-international-law
This is an excellent reason to disagree with something. >.>
So are Israeli boarding parties.
By definition.
If you DO fight them, don't be surprised when you get shot.
After the fact. It's difficult to stop a boulder rolling downhill.
Read the damn report.
You're right. They totally should have surrendered back at port in Turkey. If you aren't even going to read it, why would you bother commenting on it?
...Well, not shoot people lying on the floor in the face, for starters.
Not murder them in international waters.
Allow simple humanitarian aid into an impoverished place filled with starving people? Radical idea, I know, but hey, the process of shooting a bunch of unarmed humanitarians certainly seemed to work out well too.
How does this make any sense at all? That the IHH should have known that the IDF is a bloodthirsty pack of boys that carry out summary execution of prone civilians. The humanitarian aid workers should have known that they were dealing with a government that finds it perfectly acceptable to shoot unarmed civilians when illegally boarding a boat in maintenance of an illegal blockade meant to cause hardship to a civilian population.
I mean your statement indicates it should be understood that the IDF natural inclination is to kill allied nations civilians while conducting illegal operations. And therfore the miscaculation is all due to the victims choices aka turks should stop walking around in such short skirts. . .
"I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."
This wasn't the "simple humanitarian" situation you make it out to be.
The argument is that groups were sending much more than humanitarian aid. That is why a blockade was instituted.
A group tried to bypass that blockade and the consequences resulted in violence. No big surprise.
Two wrongs don't make a right. The flotilla was mostly a political ploy, the report says as much. That doesn't excuse the malfeasance on the part of the Israeli government.
well they didn't think they would be in any real danger
it was just the implication
It should be noted that nobody was harmed on the other ships that decided to cooperate and not violently resist the Israelis. If the people on this boat had done the same, they all would have been able to go home in one piece.
Rigorous Scholarship
Accepting the findings of the report that the helicopter fired live ammunition onto the deck before roping down, would you say that this was a reasonable response to the measures of defense taken by those on board?
I don't consider the blockade to be particularly illegal, and so the international waters defense doesn't move me. However, the reckless response by the Israeli's during the boarding action seems pretty egregious.
Except they fired before that:
Fuck people, the OP summarized shit at the top. He even bolded the parts you continue to get wrong.
Read the damn report.
Oh totally. You can tell by all the weapons and contraband they found on the flotilla. Oh wait, that was food and medicine. You're right, these guys were quite the pirates of the Caribbean. And last I checked, Israel had no fucking business attacking anyone in INTERNATIONAL waters where this took place, blockade or not.
Also, we will let you know when everyone else has posted enough information so that you don't actually have to read the report. If you want to speed that process along, you could actually read it.
Humanitarians shouldn't get all uppity against an occupying authoritarian force.
When someone risks their life to help other people, it makes me look really bad in comparison. That's just wrong.
Odd wording. Standard procedure for fast-roping into a hostile environment would be the same as for room clearance etc: flashbangs. Flashbangs are 'live ammunition'. Also, there are any number of methods of doing a show of force (i.e. firing warning shots) which could use 'live ammunition' but intentionally go nowhere near a target.
If they wanted to say "the soldiers shot [at] passengers on the top deck from the helicopter", they should have done so.
Having seen the video footage, if I was separated from a crowd control line and getting mobbed by people with metal rods and stabbed with knives, and my only weapons are rifle and baton gun: I'm going to shoot them. Aside from anything else, you can't reload a baton gun while being mobbed.
Inconsistent and contradictory reports can also indicate confusion at the time of the incident. If someone reported weapons and that that fire was being returned over the net, any military unit would start shooting.
This is generally why you don't attack armed commandos fast-roping onto your ship with knives and metal rods. Ensuring that combatants who have attacked you are dead and not simply wounded isn't an uncommon tactic for such units.
I don't particularly agree with that tactic in this situation, but then I wasn't on the deck, and I don't know what their orders were - something that people seem to be missing out here. Sometimes you blame the soldiers for exceeding their orders. Sometimes you blame the commanders who gave them bad orders.
Again, this is why you don't violently attack armed commandos and then expect tea and biscuits.
Means absolutely nothing unless they can demonstrate that a) anyone saw him, b) they had reason to believe that he was a leader for the flotilla / ship rather than just a room (notice they don't say that live firing continued on his group, but on the ship), and c) all the other passengers around the ship stopped attacking at the same time.
I don't know if the UN body is biased (though to be honest, I trust their impartiality about as much as I trust Israel's), but it's a very badly written investigative report - it leaves far too much open to interpretation. Good practice would be to state that live rounds were fired from certain weapons at a certain time at a certain target: do not say "live ammunition was used".
It reads as something that is either a) inconclusive but trying to imply conclusions, b) conclusive but ambiguously written, or c) conclusive but the conclusions aren't hard-hitting enough against the Israelis, so have been sexed up.
On the other hand, if they were actually shooting AT the crew before roping down, screw 'em - they can't expect the under-fire civs NOT to fight back with whatever they have.
My guess: the commandos fired warning shots/flash bangs etc. But they're dealing with you know civilians who believe they're being attacked and about to be slaughtered, and then fight back as innefectually as you'd expect and a few of them get killed. Assign blame how you like personally.
Fair enough, unfortunately my super-slow connection can't handle the pdf. If there is a detailed description, please post, I'd be interested to see.
I'm at work, and its a pretty long thing, it would need lots of spoiler tags.
I don't doubt that demonstrates that they shot wounded passengers, that is a fairly easy & obvious forensic conclusion, and not one that was being argued.
What it doesn't demonstrate, without a detailed chronological account of what happened and where, is that the soldiers shot passengers from the helicopter before boarding. That the shots were from above could simply indicate that the soldiers in the heli gave covering fire to the first soldiers on deck being attacked. Again, it's ambiguously written.
Perhaps I missed it, but where did it state the Helicopter stopped shooting? It's much more reasonable, at least to me, that the helicopter fired warning shots, and then provided fire once it was clear that the Israelis were being charged with knives and such? So far I'm inclined to follow Altalicious's train of thought, that this report is so damn badly worded that it's hard to draw conclusions supporting one side or the other.
The soldiers who were on the deck were getting mobbed with clubs and kitchen knives. Shooting at a mob surrounding one of your own men is something I think we can reasonably assume is so recklessly insane that it simply didn't happen. So, that leaves us with the "covering fire" consisting of shooting at civilians who are armed with - at best - fucking slingshots, milling about on their own, not threatening anybody.
Is there even a meaningful line to draw between that and just opening fire before anybody was even off the helicopter? I guess maybe you could argue that if they were shooting BEFORE any soldiers had rappelled down, they could claim that they were POTENTIAL hostiles.