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[Guns] FIRE EVERYTHING!

OrganichuOrganichu Registered User regular
GUNS!

Before I mention anything else, I'd like to cover safety.
Spoiler:

Now, down to business.
Wikipedia wrote:
In modern parlance, a gun is a projectile weapon using a hollow, tubular barrel with a closed end—the breech—as the means of directing the projectile (as well as other purposes, for example stabilizing the projectile's trajectory, aiming, as an expansion chamber for propellant, etc), and firing in a generally flat trajectory

Most guns that you and I can own could be broken down into the following categories: handguns, rifles, and shotguns.

Handguns

Spoiler:

Rifles

Spoiler:

Shotguns

Spoiler:

---

Ammunition


So, what do you fire from these guns? Except for the specific loads I mentioned, you typically fire a cartridge.
Spoiler:

These cartridges have a pretty universal composition: a projectile (usually a bullet), a primer, a gunpowder, and the enveloping shell. How, exactly, does this work? Well, Wikipedia provides a pretty succinct explanation:
The cartridge case seals a firing chamber in all directions except down the bore. A firing pin strikes the primer, igniting it. The spark from the primer ignites the powder. Gases from the burning powder expand the case to seal against the chamber wall. The projectile is then pushed in the direction that releases this pressure, down the barrel. After the projectile leaves the barrel the pressure is released, allowing the cartridge case to be removed from the chamber.

While cartridges are often referred to as bullets, that is technically incorrect. The bullet is the projectile itself- the object that is impelled to forward velocity by the expansion of gases caused by the ignited primer. What do you need to know about the ammunition you shoot from a handgun or rifle? Well, a few things.
Spoiler:

Is it rimfire or centerfire?

This describes the method by which the primer ignites and activates the powder. In rimfire ammunition, the firing pin strikes the weak perimeter of the case's rear, agitating the primer and lighting the powder in the body of the cartridge. This is the predominant priming method for .22lr ammunition, and some other small-game cartridges in popular use. Maybe it's centerfire. If it's for any caliber larger than .22lr, this is probably the case. In centerfire ammunition, the primer rests in the rear of the middle of the cartridge. The pin strikes, and the same process as above occurs. In handgun and rifle ammunition, the primer ignition and powder combustion propels the bullet; in shot, it propels the wad that contains the pellets.

When it's a bullet, what is its weight? We measure this weight by grains. 100 grains is about 6.5 grams. This is crucial in determining a few things- necessary amounts of powder, expected velocity, expected trajectory over distance, etc. How are the components packed in the shell? How much jacketing? For the most part, the two terms you'll hear are full metal jacket, and jacketed hollow point. I won't go into too much detail here, assuming that no one here except me reloads ammunition- but the long and short of it is that FMJ rounds have fully encased cores (usually in brass) and hollow points have a pitted and exposed portion of the bullet that will deform, expand, and slow- retarding penetration.

---

Application


So, what do you want to shoot at?

Targets?
Spoiler:

I can advise a few things, here.

For pure paper, print your own targets. There are a myriad of websites to do this. Unless you're looking for reactive neon targets, you can print lots of designs for free. For steel, you can improvise. Make sure the material is safe. You can also order these online.

BE SAFE.

Clay?
Spoiler:

Here you generally use shotguns (though there are some skilled trick shooters out there). Along with bird hunting, trapshooting is one of the most popular recreational uses for shotguns. A thrower- usually a machne- tosses a clay (or clays) in a given direction. Pretty simple, right?

Well, not on a windy day when they're going in any direction and you've fired a few hundred rounds already. Try it.

BE SAFE

Game?
Spoiler:

I don't know a great deal about hunting. It's not my thing- others are welcome to kick in their knowledge and I'll fold it into the OP if they wish.

BE SAFE.

---

And last but not least...

Defense

Spoiler:

I've saved this for last. There is a whole lot going on here.

Making the decision to purchase a weapon for self-defense can be very intimidating. Is it something of which I'm capable? Can I conceive shooting an animal or, God forbid, a person, if it comes to that? Can I be responsible in storing my weapon? Am I willing to be cautious and safe? Do I have the time and resources to become comfortable and competent? Will I be in compliance with the law?

Self-defense with a firearm is generally broken down into two categories: home defense, and on-person defense, or 'carry'. Carrying a firearm is having it on your person. Whether you are willing or capable to do either or both relies heavily on some of the questions I offered above. Answer honestly.

Assuming it is legal for you to own a firearm at all (and I admit that this thread is very slanted towards American customs and laws), you need to learn how to handle your weapon safely. I covered this briefly in the beginning of the thread, but it is especially important if you're giving serious thought to the possibility that your gun might be used to defend yourself or a loved one. All the inherent dangers of handling a deadly weapon are magnified by the threats presented in a self-defense situation. There are lots of things that you can do to mitigate those dangers:

(1) Fire your weapon, a lot. The most effective route, over time, to familiarize yourself with the awesome power of your weapon is to exercise that power.

(2) Seek professional training. Learn how to store your firearm safely. Learn how to load and and unload and clean and shoot your firearm until you're absolutely conversant with its use.

(3) Get in good shape! I am a long distance runner. I am prepared to use a gun in self-defense because there are bigger, meaner, and tougher people out there. My primary tool for staying safe is my 5:45 mile. With any luck, you will never encounter a criminal who means you harm. With a little less luck you will, but you will escape his or her intentions. With no luck at all you'll have to resort to defending yourself, and being in good shape and having a strong body will not hurt.

Those are general tips that can benefit either home-defense gun owners, or concealed carriers. Here I will get more specific.

Home defense

Spoiler:

Carrying a firearm

Spoiler:

BE SAFE.

Rules


(1) If you're legitimately interested in ballistics, or caliber profiles, fine. We can talk numbers. Do. not. be. a. jerk. Caliber wars will not be tolerated.

(2) Feel free to share your thoughts on self-defense with firearms, and discuss your safes and lockboxes and how you store your guns and etc. Keep in mind, though, that home invasions when you are home, and you wake up, and you grab your firearm, and you find the intruder, and you engage... are incredibly uncommon. Please don't be obnoxious about this. No cowboy fantasies. Talk home security, fine, but calm down, killer. We don't want to hear any ranting about how you keep a 12-gauge under your mattress and a 9mm and 45 under either pillow loaded with alternating HPs and FMJs in case they're wearing body armor. Down, boy. Don't.

(3) This thread is not for debate about gun control. You're welcome to mention certain going-ons- gun rights court cases, for example. I also invite you to discuss encounters you've had with other people and their feelings. But don't be a douchebag. Don't be pugnacious. Chill out. If you have genuine, good-faith questions about firearms and why people like them, you're welcome to ask. But seriously chill. I got the mods in my pocket, son, and I'll be on you so fast.

Organichu on
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Posts

  • TL DRTL DR Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Awesome OP. "Texans, ignore your genetic urges" :P

    Lacks Hello Kitty AR variant.

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  • KistraKistra Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Nice OP, I would just like to add that it doesn't make sense to print out targets if you are training for competition, you won't be able to score them properly as the paper tears differently.

    And you aren't the only person on the forum that reloads, I do as well - or did when I was competing, I've got enough hunting ammo to last for several years at this point.

    Animal Crossing: City Folk Lissa in Filmore 3179-9580-0076
  • GooeyGooey Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Sig 228: Best 9mm pistol ever made. Discuss.

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  • OrganichuOrganichu Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    fine, fine

    all the classic funny gun pics and useful charts:

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  • OrganichuOrganichu Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Kistra wrote: »
    Nice OP, I would just like to add that it doesn't make sense to print out targets if you are training for competition, you won't be able to score them properly as the paper tears differently.

    i only meant for putzing around, but that is a fair qualifier

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  • PeenPeen Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    I'd love to get a gun to plink around with but living in the city isn't really conducive to that. Stupid criminals and their stupid crimes.

  • OrganichuOrganichu Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    do you live in philly peen? i know all about the gun laws here if you ever have any questions

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  • PeenPeen Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    That's right, I forgot you were a local dude. Basically I don't know about any indoor ranges around and what it costs to go to them and such. I've already figured that if I were going to get something it'd probably be a snazzy little .22 pistol, though not what model exactly.

  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    My dad just picked up a vintage WWII german rifle at a gun show. He's been collecting WWII rifles for some time now. I'm surprised at the cost of some of the firearms from that era. The more common, mass-produced stuff is relatively cheap, but the rarer items (like proto-modern German assault rifles) have really hefty price-tags.

    I'm thinking of getting him an M-4 for Christmas to try and break him of the old gun habit. So many of the older rifles are total beasts in terms of weight and recoil. They're a total pain to shoot with.

    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • OrganichuOrganichu Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    a good starter pistol is a ruger mk iii; they can be had new for under $300. i've personally seen one run for over 100,000 rounds with only a few replaced pins. .22lr is absurdly cheap and low energy- you'll be able to shoot boatloads on the dollar, and the low power load really enables you to work on trigger control.

    pennsylvania is not very strict. you see it in a store or online, you select it. if online, they ship it to an ffl holder. you need to pass PICS (pennsylvania instant check system). not a felon, not mentally unfit, etc. it's a phone call-in the license holder does. if you pass, you go home with it the same day.

    unless you want to eventually get your license to carry a firearm, when outside your home it needs to be stored separately from the ammunition, and only transported directly to use it, or from work to home, et cetera.

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  • PeenPeen Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Yeah that's why I was thinking .22. It's not getting the gun that's so much the issue, it's where to shoot it that I can't figure out :).

  • OrganichuOrganichu Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    you live near, what, manayunk?

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  • ThomamelasThomamelas “Three films a day, three books a week and records of great music would be enough to make me happy to the day I die.” Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Chu, you might want to add this target to your list:

    Pistol-Correction-RH-Mini.jpg

    Actual Printable version.

    I keep a stack of them with my pistol, they tend to be very nice for new shooters to learn what they are doing wrong.

  • OrganichuOrganichu Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
  • AriviaArivia Registered User
    edited October 2010
    chu the safety part of the op is totally wrong without the picture of you with the gun to your head

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  • CantidoCantido Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Title should say MOAR DAKKA.
    Spoiler:

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  • OrganichuOrganichu Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Arivia wrote: »
    chu the safety part of the op is totally wrong without the picture of you with the gun to your head

    look i'm trying to set a good example arivia

    then i'd have to explain how it was visual perspective and it was pointed behind me in the safest direction and it was unloaded and...

    I CAN'T LIVE WITH THE POSSIBILITIES ON MY CONSCIENCE

    edit: ok fine but if someone offs themselves it's on you

    on you

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  • PeenPeen Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Organichu wrote: »
    you live near, what, manayunk?

    Way up in Roxborough, so near Manayunk yeah.

    Man I can already see from that target Thom posted that I'm gonna need some work when I actually shoot regularly.

  • ThomamelasThomamelas “Three films a day, three books a week and records of great music would be enough to make me happy to the day I die.” Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Peen wrote: »
    Organichu wrote: »
    you live near, what, manayunk?

    Way up in Roxborough, so near Manayunk yeah.

    Man I can already see from that target Thom posted that I'm gonna need some work when I actually shoot regularly.

    Everyone does. Shooting isn't a natural human activity. Staying very still and not jumping at loud noises goes against human nature. Shooting well and accurately requires a lot of practice.

  • OrganichuOrganichu Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Peen wrote: »
    Organichu wrote: »
    you live near, what, manayunk?

    Way up in Roxborough, so near Manayunk yeah.

    Man I can already see from that target Thom posted that I'm gonna need some work when I actually shoot regularly.

    there's colosimo's off spring garden, between 9th and 10th- but i've had poor experiences there

    unless you're willing to drive way way up to like, southampton, to classic pistol (which is a great place), the only three others i know of in the city are: philadelphia archery and gun on like 9th and ellsworth, the firing line on front and tasker (this is at least right off 95), and the delaware shooting club in bustleton.

    i don't really know any places there up north-northwest of roxborough.

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  • PeenPeen Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    That's for sure. Thanks to the Boy Scouts I'm not completely hopeless but it'll be nice to eventually have my own gun to practice with and get used to, always shooting someone else's gets old.

    Edit: Thanks Organichu, I didn't even know about those. I'm pretty much filing this away under "to do in the future" when we move out of the city and back to the 'burbs.

  • KistraKistra Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Organichu wrote: »
    pennsylvania is not very strict. you see it in a store or online, you select it. if online, they ship it to an ffl holder. you need to pass PICS (pennsylvania instant check system). not a felon, not mentally unfit, etc. it's a phone call-in the license holder does. if you pass, you go home with it the same day.

    Philly does have a few city specific gun laws. For instance it is illegal to have an air rifle within city limits. That pissed me off to no end when I moved here. I can't wait to move outside of city limits.

    Animal Crossing: City Folk Lissa in Filmore 3179-9580-0076
  • OrganichuOrganichu Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    i didn't know about the air rifle thing. interesting.

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  • SammyFSammyF Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Gooey wrote: »
    Sig 228: Best 9mm pistol ever made. Discuss.

    I prefer the way a P226 fits in my hand; regardless, I like the way you think and believe we should be BFFs.

  • OrganichuOrganichu Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    i am also a big p-series fan

    that and their CS have made me a lifelong fan

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  • RocketSauceRocketSauce Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Gooey wrote: »
    Sig 228: Best 9mm pistol ever made. Discuss.

    I think Sig makes a fantastic weapon, for 9mm I'd probably go with the 226. However, if we're talking best ever made, it's got to be the Glock 19. Compact, accurate, durable, simple, and excellent capacity. Also, unlike the Sig, you don't have to take out a small loan to afford the magazines.

  • OrganichuOrganichu Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    third party SIG mags are fantastic- namely, mec-gar. mec-gar actually makes most of the p-series factory magazines. you will see their emblem stamped under the floor plate. they sell magazines with their emblem on the main of the body, and sometimes in higher capacities, for cheap.

    i got several 15 round magazines for my 229 (a weapon that is shipped with 13rd mags) for like $22 a pop, new

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  • ThomamelasThomamelas “Three films a day, three books a week and records of great music would be enough to make me happy to the day I die.” Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Speaking of magazines, I have the AA .22lr conversion kit for my Glock. The only issue I have with it is that they only offer 10 round magazines. Has anyone spotted any magazines for that kit that have more capacity?

  • zilozilo Registered User
    edited October 2010
    Bah. You people and your high-capacity magazines, real men do it 10 rounds at a time.

  • SammyFSammyF Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Gooey wrote: »
    Sig 228: Best 9mm pistol ever made. Discuss.

    I think Sig makes a fantastic weapon, for 9mm I'd probably go with the 226. However, if we're talking best ever made, it's got to be the Glock 19. Compact, accurate, durable, simple, and excellent capacity. Also, unlike the Sig, you don't have to take out a small loan to afford the magazines.

    I know tons of people love Glocks in part because of their relative affordability, but... I just don't know, man. Maybe it's because the natural grip of my hand isn't suited to Glocks, but I cannot get a good shot grouping out of one unless I'm constantly concentrating on everything about my grip, my posture, how I'm holding my arms, how much pressure I'm putting on the trigger, and all of that is before I even begin thinking about the sight picture. Nothing about a Glock feels natural to me, while a Sig feels like a natural extension of my arm. It doesn't even feel like aiming -- it's like all I have to do is point in the general direction of the target, and the firearm takes over, putting a round of .357 SIG down the center every time I squeeze the trigger.

    I do understand that people have different hands and bodies and what not, and maybe for some people a Glock feels just as natural as a Sig feels to me. I kind of wish I was one of those people because a Sig is pretty fucking expensive.

  • Unearthly StewUnearthly Stew Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    zilo wrote: »
    Bah. You people and your high-capacity magazines, real men do it 10 rounds at a time.

    You mean 6. Revolvers are greater than semi autos. :D

    Speaking of which, I do disagree about the cleaning part about revolvers in the OP. Having to clean out each cylinder is a bitch and a half. You can clean most of a semi auto with a few passes of a bore snake, but my revolver requires so many more passes. It's also possible I'm just too much of a perfectionist when it comes to cleaning my top break...

  • OrganichuOrganichu Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    zilo wrote: »
    Bah. You people and your high-capacity magazines, real men do it 10 rounds at a time.

    You mean 6. Revolvers are greater than semi autos. :D

    Speaking of which, I do disagree about the cleaning part about revolvers in the OP. Having to clean out each cylinder is a bitch and a half. You can clean most of a semi auto with a few passes of a bore snake, but my revolver requires so many more passes. It's also possible I'm just too much of a perfectionist when it comes to cleaning my top break...

    could be

    i'm not much of a revolver guy... any time i touch one i want it out of my hands ASAP, so i prolly don't clean it thoroughly ;-)

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  • OrganichuOrganichu Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Thomamelas wrote: »
    Speaking of magazines, I have the AA .22lr conversion kit for my Glock. The only issue I have with it is that they only offer 10 round magazines. Has anyone spotted any magazines for that kit that have more capacity?

    i doubt it

    AA's facility is in california; i doubt they'll put one out first party

    so unless there's some obscure third party solution, you may be SoL

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  • ThomamelasThomamelas “Three films a day, three books a week and records of great music would be enough to make me happy to the day I die.” Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Organichu wrote: »
    Thomamelas wrote: »
    Speaking of magazines, I have the AA .22lr conversion kit for my Glock. The only issue I have with it is that they only offer 10 round magazines. Has anyone spotted any magazines for that kit that have more capacity?

    i doubt it

    AA's facility is in california; i doubt they'll put one out first party

    so unless there's some obscure third party solution, you may be SoL

    Yeah, it's what I figured.

  • EWomEWom Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    This is my wifes new gun. Beretta Neos .22LR. Unfortunately it has recently been recalled so we need to ship it off to Beretta. The issue is with the firing pin, can slip past the safety. But it's been a fun little gun, and we plan on putting a red dot scope on it.

    neos.jpg

    Also I've got a .357magnum which is just a treat. It was passed down to me by my dad, who got it in the 70's.

    sw357.jpg



    Also we've got 2 rifles, a .22 mag Mossberg from who knows when (also got it from my dad) which is a very fine plinker, And a Mossberg 802 Plinkster .22lr, which is a horribly unaccurate piece of shit.

    Whether they find a life there or not, I think Jupiter should be called an enemy planet.
  • SammyFSammyF Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    EWom wrote: »
    This is my wifes new gun. Beretta Neos .22LR. Unfortunately it has recently been recalled so we need to ship it off to Beretta. The issue is with the firing pin, can slip past the safety.

    D: That's a very good reason to issue a recall....

  • NocrenNocren Lt Futz, Back in Action North CarolinaRegistered User regular
    edited October 2010
    So since I'm now a licensed security guard, I'm looking to get a firearm permit along with all the required state permits.

    I'm still wondering what I should get though. I used the M92fs in the Navy, but I also tooled around a bit with a Sig P226. Also wondering if I should stick with 9mm or go for a double stacked .45 or .40S&W. Basically I need a fair compromise between potential stopping power and cost.

    EDIT: For the record, I live in California so my choices are rather limited.

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  • ThomamelasThomamelas “Three films a day, three books a week and records of great music would be enough to make me happy to the day I die.” Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Nocren wrote: »
    So since I'm now a licensed security guard, I'm looking to get a firearm permit along with all the required state permits.

    I'm still wondering what I should get though. I used the M92fs in the Navy, but I also tooled around a bit with a Sig P226. Also wondering if I should stick with 9mm or go for a double stacked .45 or .40S&W. Basically I need a fair compromise between potential stopping power and cost.

    EDIT: For the record, I live in California so my choices are rather limited.

    What ever is comfortable. Amongst rounds you listed, shot placement is much more more important. All of those rounds are potentially lethal, so you want something that you will be accurate with. Stopping power is generally pretty damn silly a concept. A 9mm can be anywhere from ~450 J to ~700 J worth of force. A .45 can range from ~350 J to ~700 J worth of force. The amount of overpenetration of the bullet is going to vary much more by the manufacturer product lines you use then the actual caliber. The slight difference in the size of the bullet is much less important then the accuracy of your fire.

  • ShadowfireShadowfire Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    I posted this in the last thread, but there was little activity, so here's our stuff.

    For my birthday, my parents sent some money my way so I could buy my .22 lever action I've been wanting for years. Here she is, a basic Henry .22LR.
    Spoiler:
    I fired it at the range on Sunday and it's like a dream. However, it was also cheap. About $100 cheaper than I was expecting (and than list). So I spent $80 of that extra on this.
    Spoiler:
    A Mauser. :D It's not all original (the stock has obviously been replaced), but the mechanical parts are all there and in decent shape. The iron eagle prints are very visible in the metal, which is really cool. One minor problem is that the spring seems a bit wonky. I can load four rounds ok, but if I try to put a fifth in, the bolt won't chamber it properly. I'm sure this can be fixed, but I haven't looked around for how to do so. Also, I'd never fired something this big before... my shoulder took a couple days to recover. So worth it.

    Also, the wife has a Glock 19 which she loves. I'm not the biggest fan, but then I'm not a huge handgun fan either. They're alright, but I have a lot more fun with rifles.

    steam_sig.png
    WiiU: Windrunner ; Guild Wars 2: Shadowfire.3940 ; PSN: Bradcopter
  • NocrenNocren Lt Futz, Back in Action North CarolinaRegistered User regular
    edited October 2010
    I remember reading about a handgun fighting course in Texas where they said "A handgun is what you use when you can't get to your real firearm."

    Yeah, luckily Placer county is a pretty big red district (and in the foothills) so finding decent gun store isn't a problem, and they're all pretty damn friendly about finding the right gun. Right now it's about cost though.

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