Yeah it does look like Elrond is deciphering the map.
If the pictures are any indication it looks like part 1 will end on traveling to/arriving at Laketown. Probably did that so there will be plenty of time for Smaug, the Battle of Five Armies, and the White Council driving out the Necromancer from Dol Guldur.
Yeah I know Tolkien rewrote Gollum's magic ring into the One Ring right but you'd think that Sauron would detect it's use especially when Bilbo was using it in Mirkwood and try to recover it. It would be sort of neat if Gandalf and the White Council were inadvertently ruining Sauron's plans for recovering the One Ring while Thorin and Company were traveling through Mirkwood and beyond. You could also twist Bolg's attack upon Lonely Mountain after the slaying of Smaug as having the ulterior motive of recapturing the Ring.
Even if none of that happens it was probably a smart move to include the White Council stuff to explain why Gandalf vanishes and appears for movie audiences.
I've always said that the arrival in Laketown is the best place to divide the book in two. It just works so damn well.
It does for the second film, but a problem I see is that there's no major action beat before that to end the first film on. It's just dudes riding barrels away from the crazy-ass Elvenking.
Considering Luke Evans and Stephen Fry are playing men of Laketown, I'd gather their characters have been significantly beefed up.
Yeah it does look like Elrond is deciphering the map.
If the pictures are any indication it looks like part 1 will end on traveling to/arriving at Laketown. Probably did that so there will be plenty of time for Smaug, the Battle of Five Armies, and the White Council driving out the Necromancer from Dol Guldur.
Yeah I know Tolkien rewrote Gollum's magic ring into the One Ring right but you'd think that Sauron would detect it's use especially when Bilbo was using it in Mirkwood and try to recover it. It would be sort of neat if Gandalf and the White Council were inadvertently ruining Sauron's plans for recovering the One Ring while Thorin and Company were traveling through Mirkwood and beyond. You could also twist Bolg's attack upon Lonely Mountain after the slaying of Smaug as having the ulterior motive of recapturing the Ring.
Even if none of that happens it was probably a smart move to include the White Council stuff to explain why Gandalf vanishes and appears for movie audiences.
But IIRC, Gandalf doesn't know about the ring in The Hobbit. Though obviously they could change that.
Yeah hearing the stuff about Gollum from Bilbo and investigating/overhearing plans or something at/in Dol Guldur could clue Gandalf that something bigger is at work. I forget if they even discover it's actually Sauron until after he is driven out. Still either way Saurman will go "Don't worry about it" and he does...for 60+ years.
The pressure is to strike the balance for Saruman between being the wisest on the council (more than just because they say so) while also stonewalling for his own ends. Well, they don't have to be too subtle but his eventual betrayal is suppose to be a bit of a surprise.
Edit: Ha silly me, skipped right over your excellent point. Yeah I think you're right, I'm not sure if he ever tells Gandalf about the ring. He learns about it eventually but it certainly isn't treated as a big deal.
I've always said that the arrival in Laketown is the best place to divide the book in two. It just works so damn well.
It does for the second film, but a problem I see is that there's no major action beat before that to end the first film on. It's just dudes riding barrels away from the crazy-ass Elvenking.
Considering Luke Evans and Stephen Fry are playing men of Laketown, I'd gather their characters have been significantly beefed up.
The action beat is in the Gandalf story. The timing for the assault on the Necromancer is there. Gandalf finishes up in the area and then heads north, arriving just in time to re-enter the Lonely Mountain plot at the appropriate moment.
Basically, Movie 1 ends on epic battle + Bilbo's epic plan culminating in him and the barrels heading downstream.
If the pictures are any indication it looks like part 1 will end on traveling to/arriving at Laketown. Probably did that so there will be plenty of time for Smaug, the Battle of Five Armies, and the White Council driving out the Necromancer from Dol Guldur.
I was thinking about this recently, and it occurred to me that in a way, a nice place to break it up is to end the first movie right after the escape from the Misty Mountains and right before meeting Beorn. There's a bit of an action set piece with escaping the Misty Mountains, and - best of all! - you get a built-in story recap for the start of the second movie when Gandalf tells the story of their adventures to Beorn.
The only problem with this is that it's probably not a very balanced distribution of events, putting too many big, complicated things into the second movie.
If the pictures are any indication it looks like part 1 will end on traveling to/arriving at Laketown. Probably did that so there will be plenty of time for Smaug, the Battle of Five Armies, and the White Council driving out the Necromancer from Dol Guldur.
I was thinking about this recently, and it occurred to me that in a way, a nice place to break it up is to end the first movie right after the escape from the Misty Mountains and right before meeting Beorn. There's a bit of an action set piece with escaping the Misty Mountains, and - best of all! - you get a built-in story recap for the start of the second movie when Gandalf tells the story of their adventures to Beorn.
The only problem with this is that it's probably not a very balanced distribution of events, putting too many big, complicated things into the second movie.
I, too, was trying to figure out a good break between the two movies and was also thinking right around Mirkwood would be good. Now though, I think Laketown is a good divide since it gives plenty of Smaug and battle time and also, as Atomic Ross pointed out, it looks like they are spending more time in Laketown. It's probably like Gandalf and Pippin in Minas Tirith in RotK. Still, I'm hoping part 1 doesn't rush Bilbo's adventure just to wrap up the Necromancer. Then again, it does fit perfectly since after Mirkwood Gandalf doesn't show up again till the Battle of Five Armies IIRC.
I like your idea for story recap to Beorn but that can easily be transferred to the men of Laketown. Speaking of Beorn it got me worried about him being cut like Tom Bombadill (given the former is much more important in the story) but he's there in the imdb credits as played by one Mikael Persbrandt.
If the pictures are any indication it looks like part 1 will end on traveling to/arriving at Laketown. Probably did that so there will be plenty of time for Smaug, the Battle of Five Armies, and the White Council driving out the Necromancer from Dol Guldur.
I was thinking about this recently, and it occurred to me that in a way, a nice place to break it up is to end the first movie right after the escape from the Misty Mountains and right before meeting Beorn. There's a bit of an action set piece with escaping the Misty Mountains, and - best of all! - you get a built-in story recap for the start of the second movie when Gandalf tells the story of their adventures to Beorn.
The only problem with this is that it's probably not a very balanced distribution of events, putting too many big, complicated things into the second movie.
IIRC, I remember TheOneRing.net speculating heavily that the battle against the goblins in the Misty Mountains (and Gollum's stuff) would be the climax of the first film. It's a good action beat to go out on (although a little derivative of Fellowship's scenes in Moria), and fleeing into Beorn's woods isn't a terrible place to break the film.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
An absolutely MASSIVE promotional image has been released for The Hobbit. Looks like it'll probably be some kind of gatefold cover for an upcoming EW issue.
I've put the image in spoilers because A) It's ginormous and it's pretty spoileriffic. DON'T Click if you don't want to see how the story unfolds (and what the last scene probably is).
I need to see this movie now!
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BlackDragon480Bluster KerfuffleMaster of Windy ImportRegistered Userregular
After looking at that, I need a change of pants.
And the more I see him, the more I'm coming to like the look they've gone with for Thorin. I was definitely in the "WTF Klingon?!" camp when the first images were released, but the subsequent trailers and promotional shots have steered me to a much more positive view of the design.
No matter where you go...there you are. ~ Buckaroo Banzai
I think the best division for cutting The Hobbit into two movies would be earlier. Have the climax of movie 1 be the escape from the goblins and Out of the Frying Pan Into the Fire. Getting to Beorn makes for a wind down and resolution.
That lets movie 2 start out with the spiders and elvenking for an act 1.
I think overall my objections to any strong / overt links between LOTR and Christianity is this:
while the cosmology of LOTR contains a God it does not contain a Jesus. And it seems to me pretty hard to have Christianity without a Christ.
I agree, and I think Tolkien would agree too; he disliked CS Lewis' writings for the reason that they are explicitly Christian (which hurt poor Mr. Lewis' feelings since he was a Tolkien fanboy).
To the extent that whiffs of Christianity show up in Tolkien, I think it is because Tolkien believed that reality and human nature, even in fantasyland, logically must follow certain rules, and those rules are based on his religion. So while there isn't an explicit Jesus character, Tolkien can't seem to bring himself to construct a fantasy world without a monotheistic-style creator god.
And one of my Christian internet friends once pointed out an even bigger Christian thing in LoTR: Frodo *fails.* Frodo is unable to personally overcome the power of the ring. His salvation (and the world's) comes from outside his own personal strength and courage, from the bizarre and possibly even divinely-guided series of events that led Gollum to bite off his finger and go plunging into the volcano (and, lol, eagles). The idea that we, personally, are not strong enough to overcome sin and therefore must rely on outside help, *is* central to Christianity.
We also don't know how much of the backstory they're putting in. If they cover the Necromancer in any serious depth, there might be a climax at Dol Guldur. They're also very likely to expand on the battle with Smaug. Let's face it, it'd be pretty anticlimactic on film if they did it exactly like in the books (and the animated film did). I'd like to see him really fuck up the place a bit, maybe eat the cowardly Lord of Laketown as tries to flee (a change from the book, but a satisfying one).
We also don't know how much of the backstory they're putting in. If they cover the Necromancer in any serious depth, there might be a climax at Dol Guldur. They're also very likely to expand on the battle with Smaug. Let's face it, it'd be pretty anticlimactic on film if they did it exactly like in the books (and the animated film did). I'd like to see him really fuck up the place a bit, maybe eat the cowardly Lord of Laketown as tries to flee (a change from the book, but a satisfying one).
It was pretty compact in the books, but he does burn Laketown to the ground. Well, to the water. You know what I mean.
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Librarian's ghostLibrarian, Ghostbuster, and TimSporkRegistered Userregular
The only beef I have design wise is Balin. He's my favorite and the second oldest dwarf in the company but he looks ancient compared Thorin whose suppose to be older.
Robble robble how dare you make the leader of the band more charismatic in a hollywood sense instead of dwarven robble robble.
I think overall my objections to any strong / overt links between LOTR and Christianity is this:
while the cosmology of LOTR contains a God it does not contain a Jesus. And it seems to me pretty hard to have Christianity without a Christ.
I agree, and I think Tolkien would agree too; he disliked CS Lewis' writings for the reason that they are explicitly Christian (which hurt poor Mr. Lewis' feelings since he was a Tolkien fanboy).
To the extent that whiffs of Christianity show up in Tolkien, I think it is because Tolkien believed that reality and human nature, even in fantasyland, logically must follow certain rules, and those rules are based on his religion. So while there isn't an explicit Jesus character, Tolkien can't seem to bring himself to construct a fantasy world without a monotheistic-style creator god.
And one of my Christian internet friends once pointed out an even bigger Christian thing in LoTR: Frodo *fails.* Frodo is unable to personally overcome the power of the ring. His salvation (and the world's) comes from outside his own personal strength and courage, from the bizarre and possibly even divinely-guided series of events that led Gollum to bite off his finger and go plunging into the volcano (and, lol, eagles). The idea that we, personally, are not strong enough to overcome sin and therefore must rely on outside help, *is* central to Christianity.
You took the words right out of my mouth. Hurr hurr Frodo's not perfect. LIKE JESUS. WHO IS PERFECT.
If the pictures are any indication it looks like part 1 will end on traveling to/arriving at Laketown. Probably did that so there will be plenty of time for Smaug, the Battle of Five Armies, and the White Council driving out the Necromancer from Dol Guldur.
I was thinking about this recently, and it occurred to me that in a way, a nice place to break it up is to end the first movie right after the escape from the Misty Mountains and right before meeting Beorn. There's a bit of an action set piece with escaping the Misty Mountains, and - best of all! - you get a built-in story recap for the start of the second movie when Gandalf tells the story of their adventures to Beorn.
The only problem with this is that it's probably not a very balanced distribution of events, putting too many big, complicated things into the second movie.
I, too, was trying to figure out a good break between the two movies and was also thinking right around Mirkwood would be good. Now though, I think Laketown is a good divide since it gives plenty of Smaug and battle time and also, as Atomic Ross pointed out, it looks like they are spending more time in Laketown. It's probably like Gandalf and Pippin in Minas Tirith in RotK. Still, I'm hoping part 1 doesn't rush Bilbo's adventure just to wrap up the Necromancer. Then again, it does fit perfectly since after Mirkwood Gandalf doesn't show up again till the Battle of Five Armies IIRC.
I like your idea for story recap to Beorn but that can easily be transferred to the men of Laketown. Speaking of Beorn it got me worried about him being cut like Tom Bombadill (given the former is much more important in the story) but he's there in the imdb credits as played by one Mikael Persbrandt.
That would suck, because it's implied Beorn was at the final battle.
Yeah but the Hobbit animated film (mmm nostalgia) took him out without missing a thing. Course they didn't really go into the battle other than 1) ooo it's starting 2) the allies are losing 3) the end we've won! yay!
Instead of going "the allied forces can't take down Bolg and his guards."
Should...we be spoilering any of this stuff? Sure, it's all in the book but perhaps there are some forumites who haven't read it and would like to be surprised.
You took the words right out of my mouth. Hurr hurr Frodo's not perfect. LIKE JESUS. WHO IS PERFECT.
I don't think Frodo's imperfection is the salient point, rather his almost metaphysical inability to achieve his goal. Actually, Frodo is not really a flawed character at all; he's humble, gracious, brave, adventurous, smart. iirc the movie actually invents character flaws for him to make him seem more interesting and realistic. And yet he still fails to destroy the ring and overcome evil.
This is in contrast to most fantasy stories I can think of, which often feature protagonists who grow and overcome their flaws throughout the story and go on to bravely defeat or outsmart the evil force at the end.
You took the words right out of my mouth. Hurr hurr Frodo's not perfect. LIKE JESUS. WHO IS PERFECT.
I don't think Frodo's imperfection is the salient point, rather his almost metaphysical inability to achieve his goal. Actually, Frodo is not really a flawed character at all; he's humble, gracious, brave, adventurous, smart. iirc the movie actually invents character flaws for him to make him seem more interesting and realistic. And yet he still fails to destroy the ring and overcome evil.
This is in contrast to most fantasy stories I can think of, which often feature protagonists who grow and overcome their flaws throughout the story and go on to bravely defeat or outsmart the evil force at the end.
And it ties into the larger picture of the book too as Aragorn's whole battle and journey throughout the book, the story of what one would typically consider the hero, is just a delaying action.
Just as Frodo cannot defeat the Ring through force of mortal will alone and must rely on a sort of divine providence, Aragorn cannot defeat Sauron alone and must rely on another. It's two layers of man's inability to defeat evil through his personal strength alone.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
If that's not past the statute of limitations on spoilers, I don't know what is.
Just don't tell me what happens at the end of Kong and we'll be fine.
Man is the real monster.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
There's a rumor going around that Warners will show a good chunk of The Hobbit at ComiCon this week at 48 fps . . . . . but doctored up with a grain filter to make it feel more "cinematic."
There's a rumor going around that Warners will show a good chunk of The Hobbit at ComiCon this week at 48 fps . . . . . but doctored up with a grain filter to make it feel more "cinematic."
Grain filters are actually pretty common. One of the first steps in doing VFX in post is to de-grain footage shot on film, do all your compositing, then add film grain back near the end of the process. It also helps us low-end folks cheat and make our DSLR video look a bit more "film-like." It's kinda like Instagram. We finally have the technology to make our clean digital imagery look like horrible pictures from 30 years ago.
I saw Prometheus (also shot with Red Epic 3D rigs) in 4k 3D projection, and I actually really liked how clean & sharp everything was. Granted, it was still 24 fps, but despite the huge flaws in the script, I thought it was a beautifully-shot, great-looking movie. That super-sharp, pristine look might not be the best for a fantasy movie, though... so we'll see what they do with it.
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Hugo/Elrond has got a great "WTF?!" face going on in those pics.
Wonder if he's looking at the map there?
~ Buckaroo Banzai
If the pictures are any indication it looks like part 1 will end on traveling to/arriving at Laketown. Probably did that so there will be plenty of time for Smaug, the Battle of Five Armies, and the White Council driving out the Necromancer from Dol Guldur.
Yeah I know Tolkien rewrote Gollum's magic ring into the One Ring right but you'd think that Sauron would detect it's use especially when Bilbo was using it in Mirkwood and try to recover it. It would be sort of neat if Gandalf and the White Council were inadvertently ruining Sauron's plans for recovering the One Ring while Thorin and Company were traveling through Mirkwood and beyond. You could also twist Bolg's attack upon Lonely Mountain after the slaying of Smaug as having the ulterior motive of recapturing the Ring.
Even if none of that happens it was probably a smart move to include the White Council stuff to explain why Gandalf vanishes and appears for movie audiences.
It does for the second film, but a problem I see is that there's no major action beat before that to end the first film on. It's just dudes riding barrels away from the crazy-ass Elvenking.
Considering Luke Evans and Stephen Fry are playing men of Laketown, I'd gather their characters have been significantly beefed up.
But IIRC, Gandalf doesn't know about the ring in The Hobbit. Though obviously they could change that.
I like the idea though.
The pressure is to strike the balance for Saruman between being the wisest on the council (more than just because they say so) while also stonewalling for his own ends. Well, they don't have to be too subtle but his eventual betrayal is suppose to be a bit of a surprise.
Edit: Ha silly me, skipped right over your excellent point. Yeah I think you're right, I'm not sure if he ever tells Gandalf about the ring. He learns about it eventually but it certainly isn't treated as a big deal.
The action beat is in the Gandalf story. The timing for the assault on the Necromancer is there. Gandalf finishes up in the area and then heads north, arriving just in time to re-enter the Lonely Mountain plot at the appropriate moment.
Basically, Movie 1 ends on epic battle + Bilbo's epic plan culminating in him and the barrels heading downstream.
I was thinking about this recently, and it occurred to me that in a way, a nice place to break it up is to end the first movie right after the escape from the Misty Mountains and right before meeting Beorn. There's a bit of an action set piece with escaping the Misty Mountains, and - best of all! - you get a built-in story recap for the start of the second movie when Gandalf tells the story of their adventures to Beorn.
The only problem with this is that it's probably not a very balanced distribution of events, putting too many big, complicated things into the second movie.
--The 638 minutes will be trimmed for the theatrical release.
--And then they'll be restored for the inevitable extended editions.
Though I'm speaking the obvious here.
I, too, was trying to figure out a good break between the two movies and was also thinking right around Mirkwood would be good. Now though, I think Laketown is a good divide since it gives plenty of Smaug and battle time and also, as Atomic Ross pointed out, it looks like they are spending more time in Laketown. It's probably like Gandalf and Pippin in Minas Tirith in RotK. Still, I'm hoping part 1 doesn't rush Bilbo's adventure just to wrap up the Necromancer. Then again, it does fit perfectly since after Mirkwood Gandalf doesn't show up again till the Battle of Five Armies IIRC.
I like your idea for story recap to Beorn but that can easily be transferred to the men of Laketown. Speaking of Beorn it got me worried about him being cut like Tom Bombadill (given the former is much more important in the story) but he's there in the imdb credits as played by one Mikael Persbrandt.
IIRC, I remember TheOneRing.net speculating heavily that the battle against the goblins in the Misty Mountains (and Gollum's stuff) would be the climax of the first film. It's a good action beat to go out on (although a little derivative of Fellowship's scenes in Moria), and fleeing into Beorn's woods isn't a terrible place to break the film.
The 638 figure was for LOTR.
The math on the Hobbit would put the two combined films around 360-400, which is still quite a bit, but almost half of LOTR.
I've put the image in spoilers because A) It's ginormous and
I need to see this movie now!
And the more I see him, the more I'm coming to like the look they've gone with for Thorin. I was definitely in the "WTF Klingon?!" camp when the first images were released, but the subsequent trailers and promotional shots have steered me to a much more positive view of the design.
~ Buckaroo Banzai
Every visit to this thread reminds me to feel very excited for this movie(s)!
That lets movie 2 start out with the spiders and elvenking for an act 1.
To the extent that whiffs of Christianity show up in Tolkien, I think it is because Tolkien believed that reality and human nature, even in fantasyland, logically must follow certain rules, and those rules are based on his religion. So while there isn't an explicit Jesus character, Tolkien can't seem to bring himself to construct a fantasy world without a monotheistic-style creator god.
And one of my Christian internet friends once pointed out an even bigger Christian thing in LoTR: Frodo *fails.* Frodo is unable to personally overcome the power of the ring. His salvation (and the world's) comes from outside his own personal strength and courage, from the bizarre and possibly even divinely-guided series of events that led Gollum to bite off his finger and go plunging into the volcano (and, lol, eagles). The idea that we, personally, are not strong enough to overcome sin and therefore must rely on outside help, *is* central to Christianity.
It was pretty compact in the books, but he does burn Laketown to the ground. Well, to the water. You know what I mean.
Robble robble how dare you make the leader of the band more charismatic in a hollywood sense instead of dwarven robble robble.
You took the words right out of my mouth. Hurr hurr Frodo's not perfect. LIKE JESUS. WHO IS PERFECT.
That would suck, because it's implied Beorn was at the final battle.
Instead of going "the allied forces can't take down Bolg and his guards."
Should...we be spoilering any of this stuff? Sure, it's all in the book but perhaps there are some forumites who haven't read it and would like to be surprised.
If that's not past the statute of limitations on spoilers, I don't know what is.
Just don't tell me what happens at the end of Kong and we'll be fine.
This is in contrast to most fantasy stories I can think of, which often feature protagonists who grow and overcome their flaws throughout the story and go on to bravely defeat or outsmart the evil force at the end.
And it ties into the larger picture of the book too as Aragorn's whole battle and journey throughout the book, the story of what one would typically consider the hero, is just a delaying action.
Just as Frodo cannot defeat the Ring through force of mortal will alone and must rely on a sort of divine providence, Aragorn cannot defeat Sauron alone and must rely on another. It's two layers of man's inability to defeat evil through his personal strength alone.
Grain filters are actually pretty common. One of the first steps in doing VFX in post is to de-grain footage shot on film, do all your compositing, then add film grain back near the end of the process. It also helps us low-end folks cheat and make our DSLR video look a bit more "film-like." It's kinda like Instagram. We finally have the technology to make our clean digital imagery look like horrible pictures from 30 years ago.
I saw Prometheus (also shot with Red Epic 3D rigs) in 4k 3D projection, and I actually really liked how clean & sharp everything was. Granted, it was still 24 fps, but despite the huge flaws in the script, I thought it was a beautifully-shot, great-looking movie. That super-sharp, pristine look might not be the best for a fantasy movie, though... so we'll see what they do with it.
Warners/New Line and Jackson have agreed to show the ComiCon footage in 24fps tomorrow afternoon.
Seems like a portentous omen for what's to come in December.